Why do traps and shoulders blow up so much while on?

[SidVicious77]

Yes, I know, the most quoted reason is that traps and shoulders have a lot of androgen receptors waiting to soak up all the steroids... But if that were the case, wouldn't they also be the easiest to build up even when off - more receptors making the best possible use of natural test levels?

[SidVicious77]

Anyone? Really curious why they blow up so easily when on cycle but slowly deflate when off... I've been able to keep most of the muscle gained everywhere else after coming off, but traps have appreciably shrunk...

[Buster Brown]

I would dismiss that those body parts hVe more androgen receptors and if they do where is the medical evidence to support it. I feel that your genetics will ultimately dictate what body parts will shine more then others. Some guys do have great genetic potential in some areas more then others and when worked they really pop despite on cycle or off. If your not geared to have cannonball delts and huge traps then you have to accept what you do have and train as hard as possible to maximize it.

[SidVicious77]

Guess you're right. Have to work with what you have and traps and delts will need extra work to bring up off-cycle.

[Splifton]

Actually there is evidence of more AR expressions in the trapezius muscles in comparison to other local skeletal muscle tissue. Now in the instance of anabolic/androgenic steroids, the increase in myocytes containing nuclear receptors (androgen receptors) is solely dependent on the specific muscle tissue of interest.

[SidVicious77]

Actually there is evidence of more AR expressions in the trapezius muscles in comparison to other local skeletal muscle tissue.

That's what I've always heard quoted online. But then shouldn't they also be the easiest to bulk up when off, and at normal levels of test?
Didn't lose anything at all off arms or chest or legs coming off my last cycle, shoulders lost a little, but traps absolutely deflated. That makes it seem like they need a certain threshold value of androgens to really bloom, which doesn't quite gel with a higher receptor density. That's why I'm confused.

[Splifton]

That's what I've always heard quoted online. But then shouldn't they also be the easiest to bulk up when off, and at normal levels of test?
Didn't lose anything at all off arms or chest or legs coming off my last cycle, shoulders lost a little, but traps absolutely deflated. That makes it seem like they need a certain threshold value of androgens to really bloom, which doesn't quite gel with a higher receptor density. That's why I'm confused.

I wouldn't even concern yourself with that depth of understanding. You'll only drive yourself insane.

[SidVicious77]

Lol no, I'm the type that goes insane if I can't analyse every little thing into oblivion
Either way, the message is that my traps need extra love. Waiting till I go back on so they can respond.

[Splifton]

Lol no, I'm the type that goes insane if I can't analyse every little thing into oblivion
Either way, the message is that my traps need extra love. Waiting till I go back on so they can respond.

Haha No! That's not what I was conveying!! Give me a second and let me gather my notes and studies I currently have without driving close enough to the University and logging into their server. I don't trust my broken understanding of androgen receptor biochemistry. I do remember that it's focus is on the myonucleus AR expressions vs. cell surface receptors.

[Khazima]

Maybe something to do with our normal test not being as androgenic as exogenous test (is there a difference?)? as well as the amount we take when we cycle. Other compounds would also make a difference.

I've always found my shoulders and traps one of the easiest things to grow. I find it easy in general and especially when i start bulking after dieting to grow my shoulders and traps, traps never blow up to the same degree since i don't focus on them much. Worth noting i have high natural test levels.

[SidVicious77]

Haha No! That's not what I was conveying!! Give me a second and let me gather my notes and studies I currently have without driving close enough to the University and logging into their server. I don't trust my broken understanding of androgen receptor biochemistry. I do remember that it's focus is on the myonucleus AR expressions vs. cell surface receptors.

I'll add to this....

Awesome! Looking forward to it...

[SidVicious77]

Maybe something to do with our normal test not being as androgenic as exogenous test (is there a difference?)? as well as the amount we take when we cycle. Other compounds would also make a difference.

I've always found my shoulders and traps one of the easiest things to grow. I find it easy in general and especially when i start bulking after dieting to grow my shoulders and traps, traps never blow up to the same degree since i don't focus on them much. Worth noting i have high natural test levels.

No difference, test is test... Only the levels are higher, as you say. And therein lies the source of my confusion - if traps respond awesomely to high test levels because of a greater number of receptors, they should also respond proportionately well to regular levels, but mine don't.

[Splifton]

No difference, test is test... Only the levels are higher, as you say. And therein lies the source of my confusion - if traps respond awesomely to high test levels because of a greater number of receptors, they should also respond proportionately well to regular levels, but mine don't.

It's not that simple. I'm going to post the explanation later on in a new thread in hopes of getting a good discussion going... I got out of hand with my description and I happen to stumble upon 3-4 conflicting and/or inconclusive studies that it's observatory statements seem to conflict what I was originally preaching...

I do feel your pain with the confusion. It's all confusing. However, like I mentioned earlier the upregulation of AR binding affinity is muscle dependent in the presence of supraphysiological levels of androgens.

"The expression of androgen receptors in human neck and limb muscles: effects of training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids."
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10664066

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to investigate the immunohistochemical expression of androgen receptors (AR) in human vastus lateralis and trapezius muscles and to determine whether long-term strength training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids are accompanied by changes in AR content. Biopsy samples were taken from eight high-level power-lifters (P), nine high-level power-lifters who used anabolic steroids (PAS) and six untrained subjects (U). Myonuclei and AR were visualised in cross-sections stained with the monoclonal antibody against AR and 4',6-diamidino-2-phenylindole. The proportion of AR-containing myonuclei per fibre cross-section was higher in the trapezius than in the vastus lateralis (P<0.05). In the trapezius, the proportion of AR-containing myonuclei was higher in P compared to U and in PAS compared to both P and U (P<0. 05). On the contrary, in the vastus lateralis, there were no differences in AR content between the three groups. Myonuclear number in both muscles was higher in P compared to U and in PAS compared to both P and U (P<0.05). In conclusion, AR content differs greatly between human neck and limb muscles. Moreover, the regulation of AR-containing myonuclei following training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids is muscle dependent.

[SidVicious77]

Thanks for digging that up. So what you're saying essentially is that ARs in traps particularly, upregulate in the presence of supraphysiological levels of test. Any idea on how to keep them from downregulating when coming off?

[Splifton]

Thanks for digging that up. So what you're saying essentially is that ARs in traps particularly, upregulate in the presence of supraphysiological levels of test. Any idea on how to keep them from downregulating when coming off?

Well not exactly. Every muscle group responds to the supraphysiological level, but they do so in a distinctive manner that is unique to it's particular location. For instance your trapezius can be broken down into three distinctive sections that are responsible for specific forms of functionality. The structure of each section is directly related to it's function (In molecular biology you'll here the saying structure=function quite often). So that structure is also possessing a particular composition that's distinguishable from it's relevant counterparts even though they collectively form the trapezius muscle. So every single muscle structure responsible for a specific function will essentially have a response to androgens that can be differentiated from other muscles.

AR downregulation will theoretically always occur to some degree once the abscence of abnormally elevated androgens run their course and follow their selective conversions. That's a whole different subject really..

Honestly though this information won't serve too much of a purpose in my experience. I used to try to train with an overzealous attention to anatomical structure and applying literature from my textbooks into materialization and it really caused me to overthink everything. I was too busy worrying about what I thought it should be doing and was oblivious to what I should be feeling. I wasted a year or so exercising like a maniac with piss poor results. Not saying that people out there never have success with that approach, but if you're like me and obsessively seek the most fundamental understanding of everything... then you'll just drive yourself crazy.

I got a lot more articles and journals to post, but I'm just trying to organize it all so it's not a pile of rubbish.

[SidVicious77]

Thanks for your write up, buddy. To your last point, it's a fact that I just can't feel them as well as other areas - as in the mind muscle connection is not as developed. I guess that's really the answer right there.
It's just that damn, they look freaky when I'm on, and I would dearly love to hold on to that even when I'm off.

[Splifton]

Thanks for your write up, buddy. To your last point, it's a fact that I just can't feel them as well as other areas - as in the mind muscle connection is not as developed. I guess that's really the answer right there.
It's just that damn, they look freaky when I'm on, and I would dearly love to hold on to that even when I'm off.

I'm right there with you on that mind-muscle connection and learning how to develop the bond. It's so easy to do when you can stare the muscle directly in the mirror or watch it during the movement, but that only applies to 1/3rd of the muscles. I'm just happy I have been able to dial in on the triceps brachii. Next project is my quadriceps as they are terribly neglected.

[Buster Brown]

Funny you guys mention the traps. As I have cycled on and off for years I have experienced the same issues with my traps until I started doing serious deadlifts. Not only do they stay but the complete trap is now developed. So maybe the true answers lies not in the pharmacology but how they are being trained. I am a believer in incorporating PL style training into my bodybuilding programs and I truly have never been happier both on cycle and off.

[SidVicious77]

No, I love doing heavy deadlifts, in the 3-5 rep range, so that isn't it for me at least...

[Lee_1978]

Maybe something to do with our normal test not being as androgenic as exogenous test (is there a difference?)? as well as the amount we take when we cycle. Other compounds would also make a difference.

I've always found my shoulders and traps one of the easiest things to grow. I find it easy in general and especially when i start bulking after dieting to grow my shoulders and traps, traps never blow up to the same degree since i don't focus on them much. Worth noting i have high natural test levels.

I have high natural test and I'm hypothyroid - I should be a big, fat bastard, but i'm naturally an ectomorph! Slightly off topic, but it doesn't make any biological sense!

[Splifton]

Funny you guys mention the traps. As I have cycled on and off for years I have experienced the same issues with my traps until I started doing serious deadlifts. Not only do they stay but the complete trap is now developed. So maybe the true answers lies not in the pharmacology but how they are being trained. I am a believer in incorporating PL style training into my bodybuilding programs and I truly have never been happier both on cycle and off.

Yes! I forgot about getting back to adding to this my bad. Even then it's all great information it's still subjective to varying degrees. I just felt there is way more leaning towards the differentation..

"Dissimilar effects of one- and three-set strength training on strength and muscle mass gains in upper and lower body in untrained subjects"

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of single- and multiple-set strength training on hypertrophy and strength gains in untrained men. Twenty-one young men were randomly assigned to either the 3L-1UB group (trained 3 sets in leg exercises and 1 set in upper-body exercises; n = 11), or the 1L-3UB (trained 1 set in leg exercises and 3 sets in upper-body exercises; n = 10). Subjects trained 3 days per week for 11 weeks and each workout consisted of 3 leg exercises and 5 upper-body exercises. Training intensity varied between 10 repetition maximum (RM) and 7RM. Strength (1RM) was tested in all leg and upper-body exercises and in 2 isokinetic tests before training, and after 3, 6, 9, and 11 weeks of training. Cross sectional area (CSA) of thigh muscles and the trapezius muscle and body composition measures were performed before training, and after 5 and 11 weeks of training. The increase in 1RM from week 0 to 11 in the lower-body exercises was significantly higher in the 3L-1UB group than in the 1L-3UB group (41 vs. 21%; p < 0.001), while no difference existed between groups in upper-body exercises. Peak torque in maximal isokinetic knee-extension and thigh CSA increased more in the 3L-1UB group than in the 1L-3UB group (16 vs. 8%; p = 0.03 and 11 vs. 7%; p = 0.01, respectively), while there was no significant difference between groups in upper trapezius muscle CSA. The results demonstrate that 3-set strength training is superior to 1-set strength training with regard to strength and muscle mass gains in the leg muscles, while no difference exists between 1- and 3-set training in upper-body muscles in untrained men.

Full text provided. I don't know if the bibliography made it through my crazy attempt of optimizing to meet size regulation. Got about 35%-40% compression?

[SidVicious77]

Thanks again, Splifton. But Sheesh, this is even more confusing. If I understood that study right it means traps will respond just fine to even a minimal number of sets.

[Buster Brown]

[QUOTE="SidVicious77"]Thanks again, Splifton. But Sheesh, this is even more confusing. If I understood that study right it means traps will respond just fine to even a minimal number of sets.[/QUOTE

Read less........train more! Studies are wonderful but eventually you will find what works best for you.

[SidVicious77]

Read less........train more! Studies are wonderful but eventually you will find what works best for you.

True that. This morning's session, I actually dropped the weight on shrugs down to 315 from 365 and focused on squeezing the shit out of them. Sore as hell right now.

[Buster Brown]

True that. This morning's session, I actually dropped the weight on shrugs down to 315 from 365 and focused on squeezing the shit out of them. Sore as hell right now.

There you go.....try seated dumbell shrugs, standing single arm dumbell shrugs, face pulls, shrugs behind the back. Drop sets, rest pause......and of course keep your deadlifts up.