What causes the post-cycle overhang?

[Jedi1337]

Hi all,

Ive done 4 cycles now, always sust.

What I have noticed is that after the tiredness nonsense but before full recovery, I seem to enter a phase of "feeling better than normal". This is probably weeks 6-14 after the last pin.

Has anyone else noticed this? Do we know what is going on here biochemically?

My suspicion has always been it might be something to do with the long esters actually not having fully left the bloodstream yet (which kinda means PCT for sust cycles should start sigificantly later than what is normally recommended).

Thoughts please!

[Mr.BB]

No, its the body feeling less stressed. Remember testosterone at supraphysiological levels puts a toll on the body, water retention, higher erythropoiesis (RBC production), increased BP, etc.

When this is reduced and everything gets balanced again its normal to feel good, lighter.

[TRA]

No, its the body feeling less stressed. Remember testosterone at supraphysiological levels puts a toll on the body, water retention, higher erythropoiesis (RBC production), increased BP, etc.

When this is reduced and everything gets balanced again its normal to feel good, lighter.

Exactly what Kelkel had mentioned to me.

[Jedi1337]

well i think what this guy is saying supports the idea that the undecanoate is in our bodies for a VERY long time (if hes right). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwbQpAmVFuw

This means 1) we are all shut down for longer than we think and 2) starting our PCT 2-3 weeks after last pin is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early if we are taking sustenon.

Seriously, we are all doing this steriod thing wrong!

[Jedi1337]

in effect, we are actually finishing PCT before the test has left our bodies. No wonder people say they are not recovering after having done pct.

[Mr.BB]

well i think what this guy is saying supports the idea that the undecanoate is in our bodies for a VERY long time (if hes right). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwbQpAmVFuw

This means 1) we are all shut down for longer than we think and 2) starting our PCT 2-3 weeks after last pin is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early if we are taking sustenon.

Seriously, we are all doing this steriod thing wrong!

So, you dont do bloodwork????

[Jedi1337]

So, you dont do bloodwork????

Sorry i dont get ur logic. If we know the pharmacokenetics first, why would you waste ur time getting BW done before the test had totally left your system? (as we know HPTA will be shutdown).

Lets not sidestep the fact here that, on the face of it, it sounds like a lot of the advice given on this forum and others is way out of touch. The above suggests that a 12 week sust course means you are actually cycling for near-enough 6 months, insomuch that your endogenous test will be shut down for that long.

[Mr.BB]

Sorry i dont get ur logic. If we know the pharmacokenetics first, why would you waste ur time getting BW done before the test had totally left your system? (as we know HPTA will be shutdown).

Lets not sidestep the fact here that, on the face of it, it sounds like a lot of the advice given on this forum and others is way out of touch. The above suggests that a 12 week sust course means you are actually cycling for near-enough 6 months, insomuch that your endogenous test will be shut down for that long.

My logic?

You are the one trying to make a case out of the long ester of sustanon, which is decanoate ester (not undecanoate like you suggest above) being responsible for you to feel good 6-14 weeks after last pin.

This is a complete idiotic idea, as this would mean you would still be shutdown, with a wasted PCT, running on very low testosterone of the decanoate ester. Beats me why you would feel good in that situation!

[Jedi1337]

Not really idiotic if you look at the science. Very low comparatively but still supraphysiological for quite some time. The esters in sust basically taper you off.

I dont have the threads to hand, but others talk of a "bounce back" (Rich Piana) and "feeling good" followed by a crash a long time after being on sust and having done a pct, so im not the only one.

I always get the decanoate thing wrong, you knew what i meant tho - the longest sust ester!

Anyway, if i am right, the consequences for 1000s of us is quite harsh.

[Mr.BB]

Sorry, you have the science wrong, it would not be supraphysiological.
Maybe someone else has more patience than me today.

Also, you have the same feelling with enanthate....

[numbere]

well i think what this guy is saying supports the idea that the undecanoate is in our bodies for a VERY long time (if hes right). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwbQpAmVFuw

This means 1) we are all shut down for longer than we think and 2) starting our PCT 2-3 weeks after last pin is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early if we are taking sustenon.

Seriously, we are all doing this steriod thing wrong!

Hey bud not to bust your balls but you shouldn't take AAS advice from anyone on YouTube.

I've never seen anyone on there that understands hormones.

The guy in that video thinks test e has supraphysiological effects for over 40 days.

The chart below that he quotes in his video is incorrect for almost every compound.

As a general rule of thumb you shouldn't take steroid advice from someone who has less muscle mass than your mother.

[Obs]

Hey bud not to bust your balls but you shouldn't take AAS advice from anyone on YouTube.

I've never seen anyone on there that understands hormones.

The guy in that video thinks test e has supraphysiological effects for over 40 days.

The chart below that he quotes in his video is incorrect for almost every compound.

As a general rule of thumb you shouldn't take steroid advice from someone who has less muscle mass than your mother.

Fuck yes. That's just my point about that one dumb shit that pushes sarms on youtube... scrawny ass squirrel pushing sarms telling everyone to use hcg after a cycle. Cannot remember dipshits name. Anyway, you can get every "right" way you want on YouTube, when it comes to pct. This is a collective of very smart people like Mr. BB. HUGE COLLECTIVE OVER MANY YEARS. The info here is consistent because the dumb shits get shut off by physicians that have cycled many years. Mr. BB may seem abrasive sometimes but he won't steer you wrong jedi1337. There are people on here that will make your head spin, this is the Smithsonian of cycling and you are arguing with some elite folks.

[Grappler13]

Fuck yes....There are people on here that will make your head spin, this is the Smithsonian of cycling and you are arguing with some elite folks.

The Smithsonian of Cycling. Yes it is.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Couchlock]

Not really idiotic if you look at the science. Very low comparatively but still supraphysiological for quite some time. The esters in sust basically taper you off.

I dont have the threads to hand, but others talk of a "bounce back" (Rich Piana) and "feeling good" followed by a crash a long time after being on sust and having done a pct, so im not the only one.

I always get the decanoate thing wrong, you knew what i meant tho - the longest sust ester!

Anyway, if i am right, the consequences for 1000s of us is quite harsh.

There is your first mistake
Richard Piana
(Dick cranium)

[Obs]

well i think what this guy is saying supports the idea that the undecanoate is in our bodies for a VERY long time (if hes right). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwbQpAmVFuw

This means 1) we are all shut down for longer than we think and 2) starting our PCT 2-3 weeks after last pin is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early if we are taking sustenon.

Seriously, we are all doing this steriod thing wrong!

Lmao! Tahdey we are gowna talk aboud esstherz! Hey heey hey! Rotflmao! I couldn't finish the video! Yeah that guy was clearly speaking from lots of experience of overloaded testosterone! Most test that guy ever saw at one time was shot in his ass and not by a syringe!!!! LMAO I'M GONNA FAINT!

[Obs]

Attachment 166304

[Jedi1337]

Hey bud not to bust your balls but you shouldn't take AAS advice from anyone on YouTube.

I've never seen anyone on there that understands hormones.

The guy in that video thinks test e has supraphysiological effects for over 40 days.

The chart below that he quotes in his video is incorrect for almost every compound.

As a general rule of thumb you shouldn't take steroid advice from someone who has less muscle mass than your mother.

lol. Actually i wasnt using him as my sole source. Like i said, its something i have experienced and i came on here for some perspectives, which i now have.

At the same time, muscle size and endocrine knowledge is not positively correlated! (honestly, the frath that I hear people in the gym come out with sometimes..)

[Jedi1337]

Fuck yes. That's just my point about that one dumb shit that pushes sarms on youtube... scrawny ass squirrel pushing sarms telling everyone to use hcg after a cycle. Cannot remember dipshits name. Anyway, you can get every "right" way you want on YouTube, when it comes to pct. This is a collective of very smart people like Mr. BB. HUGE COLLECTIVE OVER MANY YEARS. The info here is consistent because the dumb shits get shut off by physicians that have cycled many years. Mr. BB may seem abrasive sometimes but he won't steer you wrong jedi1337. There are people on here that will make your head spin, this is the Smithsonian of cycling and you are arguing with some elite folks.

without blowing my trumpet, I studied neuroscience at the highest level. There is always room for challenge and sometimes even the most experienced people, for whatever reason, cannot see the wood for the trees. Take Rich Piana for example, or even some of the really "experienced" guys he often gives commentary with, talk some complete smack sometimes. Yeh he knows how to get big, but he does not understand some of the more biomolecular mechanisms he pretends to.

I dont mind abrasive people when that abrasiveness is an opinion different to my own. We are here to learn, and I asked a question. Very little will spin my head, though :P

[numbere]

lol. Actually i wasnt using him as my sole source. Like i said, its something i have experienced and i came on here for some perspectives, which i now have.

At the same time, muscle size and endocrine knowledge is not positively correlated! (honestly, the frath that I hear people in the gym come out with sometimes..)

Okay mate well maybe you should create a new thread so you can drop some knowledge on all of us simpletons.

There is a huge difference between understanding of the endocrine system and understanding of the endocrine system paired with first hand knowledge of AAS.

[Jedi1337]

Well i thought id give pubmed a visit. Just as an example, undeca takes only 50-60 days to return to lower-normal serum T levels. I have to say im surprised, and it goes against what i suggested above.

Nonetheless, i still feel there is something going on, but now can only assume it due to some other downstream mechanism we are as yet not aware of (e.g. dopamine regulation)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876028

[Jedi1337]

Okay mate well maybe you should create a new thread so you can drop some knowledge on all of us simpletons.

There is a huge difference between understanding of the endocrine system and first hand knowledge of AAS.

Agreed, there is. Just cos a plumber knows how to fix pipes, doesnt mean he understands the chemical basis of erosion.

I could drop you a load of knowledge from the scientific domain if you like. Tell what you want to know.

[Mr.BB]

Well i thought id give pubmed a visit. Just as an example, undeca takes only 50-60 days to return to lower-normal serum T levels. I have to say im surprised, and it goes against what i suggested above.

Nonetheless, i still feel there is something going on, but now can only assume it due to some other downstream mechanism we are as yet not aware of (e.g. dopamine regulation)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876028

Undecanoate is nebido/aveed and has been thoroughly discussed in the TRT section. I can show you different studies with different values for undecanoate testosterone half life.

Still dont understand why you talking about undecanoate when the long ester in sustanon is decanoate...

[Mr.BB]

without blowing my trumpet, I studied neuroscience at the highest level. There is always room for challenge and sometimes even the most experienced people, for whatever reason, cannot see the wood for the trees. Take Rich Piana for example, or even some of the really "experienced" guys he often gives commentary with, talk some complete smack sometimes. Yeh he knows how to get big, but he does not understand some of the more biomolecular mechanisms he pretends to.

I dont mind abrasive people when that abrasiveness is an opinion different to my own. We are here to learn, and I asked a question. Very little will spin my head, though :P

Abrasive is a new one, some moron was also saying I'm not nice

But go ahead and study sustanon in depth. The conclusion you will arrive is that is a very poor compound for cycling... (if you are not in TRT)

[Jedi1337]

Undecanoate is nebido/aveed and has been thoroughly discussed in the TRT section. I can show you different studies with different values for undecanoate testosterone half life.

Still dont understand why you talking about undecanoate when the long ester in sustanon is decanoate...

I couldnt find any data on decanoate exclusively. I felt the information was sufficient in the study above to answer the original question by extrapolation.

[Mr.BB]

I couldnt find any data on decanoate exclusively. I felt the information was sufficient in the study above to answer the original question by extrapolation.

Sorry, but claiming scientific knowledge and presenting potatoes saying tomatoes sounds bad....

[Jedi1337]

Sorry, but claiming scientific knowledge and presenting potatoes saying tomatoes sounds bad....

Its not ideal, but its a quantitative variation, not qualitative.

[Mr.BB]

Its not ideal, but its a quantitative variation, not qualitative.

Again I fail to see your logic.

One important quality in scientific matters it is logic. Not only to have logic thinking and know how to use it, also be able to explain the logic to others...

[Jedi1337]

Again I fail to see your logic.

One important quality in scientific matters it is logic. Not only to have logic thinking and know how to use it, also be able to explain the logic to others...

The esters constitute a quantitative impact on plasma T levels (same measurable variable) - it can be quantified in terms of numbers - as opposed to a qualitative trait like turning your skin blue. To elaborate, the data on undecanoate is enough to refute the suggestion i made in the original post because the esters differ quantitatively. I hope this is clearer.


I think you'd agree this is become slightly distracted from the original post. I feel the data is sufficient to answer my original question, however no closer to understanding why the elation so far out from my last pin. Thanks for your input.

[Mr.BB]

The esters constitute a quantitative impact on plasma T levels (same measurable variable) - it can be quantified in terms of numbers - as opposed to a qualitative trait like turning your skin blue.

Dooohhhh really, omg, very intuitive.

I think you'd agree this is become slightly distracted from the original post. I feel the data is sufficient to answer my original question, however no closer to understanding why the elation so far out from my last pin. Thanks for your input.

Not my fault, I answered the original question on post #2, just having fun now

[Jedi1337]

Dooohhhh really, omg, very intuitive.



Not my fault, I answered the original question on post #2, just having fun now

nitpicking you mean

[Obs]

without blowing my trumpet, I studied neuroscience at the highest level. There is always room for challenge and sometimes even the most experienced people, for whatever reason, cannot see the wood for the trees. Take Rich Piana for example, or even some of the really "experienced" guys he often gives commentary with, talk some complete smack sometimes. Yeh he knows how to get big, but he does not understand some of the more biomolecular mechanisms he pretends to.

I dont mind abrasive people when that abrasiveness is an opinion different to my own. We are here to learn, and I asked a question. Very little will spin my head, though :P

Same reason I can go to a doctor and get any opinion. Books can teach you a lot. People like Mr BB and kel kel have that and they also have a lifetime of cycling experience. Hey though maybe just listen to that scrawny thing that read a book about getting big.

[T-boner]

Abrasive is a new one, some moron was also saying I'm not nice

But go ahead and study sustanon in depth. The conclusion you will arrive is that is a very poor compound for cycling... (if you are not in TRT)

Why do you say sustanon if not good for cycling? I've done 2 cycles with sustanon and had good gains. Felt great on cycle but just like the original post, I've had a ruff time recovering after pct. Im gonna try a different test next cycle. If Sus is no good then what do you suggest?

[Mr.BB]

Why do you say sustanon if not good for cycling? I've done 2 cycles with sustanon and had good gains. Felt great on cycle but just like the original post, I've had a ruff time recovering after pct. Im gonna try a different test next cycle. If Sus is no good then what do you suggest?

Its not the gains, its the recovery as it seems you already found out. It has a decanoate ester which is too long for cycling and PCT. After last pin you have to wait a long time for it to dissipate before you can start PCT, and a small amount still is getting released while on PCT, many times making the recovery worthless.

Test is test. No point in using blends. Just do enanthate, or prop if you want short ester.