Is *some* desire for war/battle an inante human (male) desire?

[BigGreen]

EDIT: Title should read "innate", not "inante" or whatever I typo'ed.

Now, I do not mean to trivialize, glorify or subscribe to a fictionalized version of war that is found in such films, but I (pretty much a total pacifist), swell with an urge to participate in some kind of epic battle when watching battle scenes from lord of the rings, braveheart, etc, etc. Now, of COURSE I realize real war is not very much like the stereotypical Hollywood version in the least...but I am imbued with this same feeling even when watching blackhawk down, we were soldiers, saving private ryan, or any number of films lauded for having most closely captured the experience. Talking with friends, many males share this view in some way, even the pacifists. Without giving too much detail (though many know where I attended school) one of the profs I was very close to authored several articles on battle being the thread that tied generations of men together, for right or wrong (she certainly took the stance that this was wrong). So, what I want to ask the members of AR, whether they've been in battle or not, whether they think fighting in any form is wrong, or anywhere in between (such as myself), do you think that an inate "need" or desire to participate in battle is an indellible part of (male) human nature. I know it's very PC and progressive to deny that there is anything inherently wrong deep within us, but I sincerely believe that man is bred to fight on some level, and all the civilization in the world can't entirely strip us of that.

[mass junkie]

Ive always wondered what it would be like to kill a man

[hoss827]

I agree....Man are bred to fight to some of an extent. I've really liked the battles much more then the whole story line of LOTR. I'd love to participate in one of the battles in Braveheart..(cept the ones where the guys got shot in the ass with arrows), or the LOTR battle at the castle. One thing i've always wanted to do is lead a revolt against something that is injust. Sortof like The Last Castle.

[monster.]

We all have a warrior instinct, some have easier access to it...

BigGreen... You write so well, i'm looking forward to you speaking in 3rd person in the near future...

[ripped4fsu]

Have you ever watched "Patton"? I think he sums it up rather nicely about the extreme but fleeting moments of Glory only winning a battle can give you.
~R

[ripped4fsu]

BigGreen... You write so well, i'm looking forward to you speaking in 3rd person in the near future...

Meeeeeeeeeeeee toooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[BIG TEXAN]

For men going into battle it is a type of right of passage.... it used to be said that a man was not a man until he performed in battle. Personally being in battle I can say... it is absolutely nothing like any of you think. It changes you.. .some for the better and some for the worse. Id fighting wrong.... depends on the situation. Defending your beliefs, your rights, your family or your country.... no. But in many other situations... I do believe fighting to be wrong. As a soldier I can say this... none of us want war, but when need be we willingly go and do what we must. For me and my men it was never about glory, or action, or even for freedom or what not.... it was about each other. We fought for ourselves.... to ensure that each of our brothers would make it home.

[BigGreen]

For me and my men it was never about glory, or action, or even for freedom or what not.... it was about each other. We fought for ourselves.... to ensure that each of our brothers would make it home.

I've read study after study after study that reaches this very same conclusion. Certainly I realize that you can't ever know what it's like until you're involved, but in many ways, this is a huge part of my point...if it is often so differently conceived (in film, literature, pop culture, etc, etc) than it is in actuality, and so often in the same ways over and over again, that this fictional construction MUST strike a chord somewhere in a great percentage of the population...recently i've become of the opinion that this chord is an innate male desire to be in battle.

[slamd097]

I think if you look into the cave man days,we had to fight daily. And it stays in our blood. We are men, we are always in one form or another competing. Battle as stated before Is a right. It dosen't make sense, but has any one truly walked away from a fight? You will hear things like,"oh yea I did and I won the fight for doing so." I think that also shows that even though someone did walk away. they still think they won the fight even though it wasn't physical.

[BIG TEXAN]

BigGreen... it is very true...as men and even women, we have an over whelming urge to protect... we see a fellow brother being shot, beat, or what not and the urge to run to his aid is there. For example... I was pinned down under heavy fire, I couldn't move without being shot at cause they had my location zeroed in. Well after about 10 minutes of this one of my men actually stood up from behind his cover and started yelling and waiving his arms.... this distracted the sniper from me allowing me to relocate to a better cover. Unfortanetly my boy took one in the shoulder for it, but over all he saved my life.

[jeffylyte]

other things that Ive noticed of late, is the desire by those who have never been in war to either push for it or to brand all the men doing thier duty as "heros", how the press (and most people) blow every little skirmish up into a huge battle. one person getting a toe blown off is not a major engagement! also, how many are so quick to tell it "how it is" My family has a major history in the military, and the only way I can get my dad to say "the details" is by getting him drunk. most WW2, korean, and vietnam vets are similar...they don't brag, and they rarely even say anything at all! Id bet that Texan is similar. ie. most on here new he was a seal, but id bet this is the first time he gave a specific instance of combat. Id also bet, hed be loathe to brand himself as a "hero", that he was just doing his duty. But as much fewer americans know what it is like to experience war, the lessons lose thier grip.

at least these are my perceptions!

[BIG TEXAN]

You're right... I don't like talking about it... taking human life is not something that should be a conversation peice. Also I am not by any means a hero...... the real hero's never come home....... it was my job and I was just protecting my men, as they were doing the same for me.

[Tock]

Is *some* desire for war/battle an innate human (male) desire?

I'd say yes . . . I think it stems from a basic unmet need of some sort, which fosters anger, which precipitates aggression. It would probably be one of those things that provided our primitive ancestors with the incentive to do what was needed to survive . . . say someone stole your food, you'd get pissed and then bop 'em over the head and take it back. Or, if a raiding party from the next village came and stole your community food supply, the village leader would focus everyone's anger towards the goal of getting it back, plus maybe some revenge, through the use of violence/aggression.
Over time, probably it would be the folks with the greatest capacity for aggression who would be able to preserve resources for themselves and their communities.
So . . . yah, I'd guess it's an innate thing . . . probably is characteristic of just about everything that lives . . .

[miked512]

Yeah, the desire to do it probably is innate. It seems like it is a base instinct that comes from the fact that if you take away all of society and culture, the point of all of this is to survive and insure that those members of your clan do as much as possible to insure survival.

Its the animal instinct within. :-) The battle scenes you see in movies just makes you think about what you'd do and if you don't catch yourself, you think you like it. However, I'm going to gather that once you experience it, you don't like it but know that you do what you can to insure your clan's survival.

[BigGreen]

what continues to strike me is the basic "formula" of a glorified battle that appears so ubiquitously applicable. I think you are all correct in asserting that it is inherent to human nature for the reasons you've cited above, but I'm curious as to how the "glory" aspect, as opposed to the "just do it" aspect is also so deeply ingrained.

[BIG TEXAN]

BG... ask a soldier....any soldier... and he or she will tell you, there is no glory in battle. Yea we have our stories that we share among ourselves (meaning those that were there). But we feel there is no glory.... life has been lost, and a soldiers main goal is to preserve life... not take it. No soldier likes war... or even wants it. But we understand that it is our job to go forth if need be.

[BigGreen]

BG... ask a soldier....any soldier... and he or she will tell you, there is no glory in battle. Yea we have our stories that we share among ourselves (meaning those that were there). But we feel there is no glory.... life has been lost, and a soldiers main goal is to preserve life... not take it. No soldier likes war... or even wants it. But we understand that it is our job to go forth if need be.

I'm wording my sh*t like sh*t today....what I mean to say is that, if it's abundantly clear to anyone who has been in one, and most people who haven't realize it to be true on some level as well, why does the glory aspect continue not only to pervade the fictionalized conception of battle, but to have such appeal? Why the cultural insistence on lying to ourselves?

[BIG TEXAN]

Because it's called Hollywood.... and it sells. I believe people that have not ever experienced the horrors of combat, when they see say a battle scene... all they see is the good guy killing the bad guy and the hero emerging victorious. They don't see the fallen comrades, or the see the nightmares to come of faces and voices, or the fact that you have to live the rest of you life knowing you killed someone's son, brother, father, husband....

[BigGreen]

Because it's called Hollywood.... and it sells.

Agreed...but, as I understand it, for something to "sell" it has to have some deep appeal, bordering on ingrained. That being said, since starting this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if the inherent desire of the average male to experience war, combined with the pervasive glory concept, would indicate that the innateness of war is maybe not stemming so much from the reasons Tock cites (though they MUST play a significant role) but rather it is about the ultimate form of alpha-status within your own...not of vanquishing the enemy for the sake of your clan, but vanquishing the enemy for the sake of your status within the clan. I bet psychologists have come up with some cool **** on the subject.

[BIG TEXAN]

Good point..... like I said studying war and combat like I have. It is well known that all through the ages, to become a man or advace in status, you did so in battle. The more fierce the warrior.. the higher the status inside the clan. You make a good point and I see where you're coming from.

[Pheedno]

I would edit that title for you BG, but I just love the fact that you forever have a screw up in this literary display

[BigGreen]

I would edit that title for you BG, but I just love the fact that you forever have a screw up in this literary display

NOoooooooooo!!!!!!

[Pheedno]

As for battle. Don't know anything about it, wouldn't pretend to, and wouldn't want to.

Neccessity is different than desire. The desire to fight, I have not. The will and ableness if the instance occured, resides within me. Hopefully, it won't be needed in that capacity

[BIG TEXAN]

I would edit that title for you BG, but I just love the fact that you forever have a screw up in this literary display

HAhahahahahahahahahahaha

Hey Pheedno... can we make this a sticky... cause we all know BG won't be making that mistake again.

[BigGreen]

HAhahahahahahahahahahaha

Hey Pheedno... can we make this a sticky... cause we all know BG won't be making that mistake again.

Despite the nice discussion, i'm not above deleting the thread to protect my rep. Imagine if this thread got into the hands of a harvard law admissions rep!

[BIG TEXAN]

Despite the nice discussion, i'm not above deleting the thread to protect my rep. Imagine if this thread got into the hands of a harvard law admissions rep!

Ahhhh... how much are you willing to pay to keep that from happening.... oh by the way.. I'm printing this out as we speak.

[Pheedno]

I wouldn't have to delete it. I could correct the title so that it was speeled correctly

[mass junkie]

I wouldn't have to delete it. I could correct the title so that it was speeled correctly

I hope that was a pun

[Strut99GT]

This is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on AR.

On a side-note, my friends always give me hell when I make some sort of mistake in e-mail, because I'm always calling them out.

I definitely think that there's some sort of natural alpha-male instinct to want to protect and fight, and afterwards feel "fulfilled" in some way as a result. However, to me this applies to protecting your girlfriend, kids, even possessions. War isn't the only outlet where a person wants to experience some sort of glory for acting in a way they feel was honorable. I think that in terms of hollywood, though, war is the easiest outlet to sell this concept. What makes for a more large-scale movie - one that tells the tale of a man that killed someone that came into his house and was threatening his wife and kids, or one that has that same man acting *******ly on the battlefield? When it comes to movies, it's all about excess.

[Tock]

Agreed...but, as I understand it, for something to "sell" it has to have some deep appeal, bordering on ingrained. That being said, since starting this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if the inherent desire of the average male to experience war, combined with the pervasive glory concept, would indicate that the innateness of war is maybe not stemming so much from the reasons Tock cites (though they MUST play a significant role) but rather it is about the ultimate form of alpha-status within your own...not of vanquishing the enemy for the sake of your clan, but vanquishing the enemy for the sake of your status within the clan. I bet psychologists have come up with some cool **** on the subject.

--------


For the idea of war to become popular, I think all it would take is an idealistic image of a warrior/hero overcoming great odds to subdue a loathesome enemy to preserve "mom and apple pie." That's pretty much how the US gov't got so many guys to volunteer in WWI . . . put out lots of posters, got the vaudeville performers to do patriotic and anti-Hun songs, that sort of thing. Most of the war correspondants wrote about the "heroic" side of war, too, avoiding the grisly details. Of course, when WWII came along, there were enough veterans of WWI who remembered the horror of battle that there was a fairly stout anti-war sentiment, led by folks like Charles Lindberg. But the US gov't got the media to generate more patriotic songs and movies and etc, and after Pearl Harbor, the public was ready to fight again . . .
When TV cameras went to Vietnam and filmed the actual horrors, the little kids crying and running naked in the streets after their homes were napalmed, people being executed, and the Lt. Calley My Lai massacre, Americans at home got to see for the first time some of what war is really like, and it's been more difficult to generate public support for war since then.
Bush managed to get public support for war by characterizing Saddam as an evil madman with weapons of mass destruction, alias the "loathesome enemy," and when the US Army rolled into Iraq, all our soldiers became Heros, out to subdue the loathesome enemy. Support for the military action was very strong, but started to erode as soon as folks back home discovered that the war was not without its horrors--US casualties. The news media used to broadcast film footage of caskets brought in to the US until the Bush administration told them to stop doing it . . . so, fewer images of war horror, greater support for the war.

Yah, so pretty much, it'd just take an image of a hero beating up a terrible enemy to generate support for a conflict. Dunno why this works, but it's a proven formula in literature . . . hero overcomes in a conflict, and the hero sustains some sort of change. Pretty much, any story without a conflict or a hero would read like the telephone book. It's done to maintain interest . . . so maybe the whole reason why the public supports aggression this way is because it releives boredom . . .

[Juggernaut]

Big Green, This letter I’ve placed below was written by my boss, a retired marine. He sends this out each year to the men who served under his command each Veterans Day. I posted it over at IBB with his permission and with you opening this thread I felt it might make a good addition. Not only does it give a vivid description of what happens in a battle it gives you an understanding as to what it does to the person who survives. The honor to stand next to such brave men in battle, I can only imagine, can never be matched but the horrors of the act and the men that one witness falling in this event will forever be ingrained in the mind. My grandfather was a retired colonel and was there when the Allies stormed the beaches in Normandy. I grew up in his shadow and in the thirty plus years that I knew him never, and I do mean never, did he once tell a single story of any battle he was in and he was wounded three times and has the purple hearts to prove it. The only thing he ever said was “I lost brothers, I lost friends and I lost a part of me that will never come back no matter if I talk about it or not. Some things you just don’t talk about boy and killing people is something no man wants to talk about”.
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Friends,
I wrote this email to a fellow Marine in October of 1998. I have sent it out on every Veterans Day since then. I thought you may like to read it and reflect a bit on the sacrifices made by our veterans in order to preserve our way of life.
Semper Fidelis,
Mike
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Tom,
I was at Camp Lejeune, N.C. on Thursday for business. Every time I go down there I stop at the Beirut Memorial to pay my respects to the Marines who were killed in Lebanon. I always go there very early in the morning so I am sure to be alone as I visit the Memorial.
The Beirut operation was and still is largely a mystery to most people. It was simply not discussed among Marines like previous or subsequent Marine Corps operations were. Most folks believe that only the 241 Marines and sailors who were killed in the BLT HQ blast are listed on the wall. Not true, there are a few dozen more that were killed in firefights and by shelling both before and after the BLT tragedy. Many more Marines survived to wear Purple Hearts for gunshot and shrapnel wounds received in Beirut. This fact is relatively unknown by most people, Marines included.
There is a friend and TBS/IOC classmate of mine, 2nd Lt. George Losey, listed on the wall. George and his platoon sergeant were both killed during a mortar and artillery attack at the Beirut airport in August of 1983. I went to his funeral and was greatly affected by it. It was especially heartbreaking to see George's grandfather grieve at the sight of his grandson as he lay dead at such a tender age. One can only imagine what he was thinking. It was one of the saddest scenes I have ever witnessed.
Also listed is Sgt Manuel Cox, a squad leader in Golf Co., 2/8. Sgt Cox was an immigrant from somewhere in South America. He came to the battalion from what is now the School of Infantry where he was a very popular instructor. All of the young Marines in the battalion knew him from the school and were simply in awe of him.
Sgt Cox and his squad were put on an isolated Observation Post west of the Beirut airport. Our battalion’s (2/8) first big scrap in Beirut took place in early December of 1983. It lasted about three hours, on and off. The local Shiite militia apparently decided it was time to see what the new Marine unit had in the way of testosterone. They found out rather quickly that the rules had changed. The battalion shot everything; small arms, artillery, mortars, tank main gun rounds, and even TOW and Dragon missiles (normally used against armored vehicles, they proved to be very effective when shot at enemy gunners in distant buildings!).
I received a radio message from the airport informing me that they were engaged in a pitched fire-fight and warning me to be alert for attacks on my position, which was isolated several miles away in a very bad sector of West Beirut. I tuned a couple of spare radios to the frequencies used by Sgt Cox’s company and the Battalion Command Posts. For the next few hours, I sat in the dark on the roof of a building and listened to Marines I knew fight for their lives. It was evident from the radio traffic that Sgt Cox's position was really catching hell. Judging by the ferocity of the attack on his observation post, I believe the Shiites wanted to kill everyone there and take the weapons, ammo, etc., for their own use.
During the entire fire-fight Sgt Cox conducted himself in a manner that was simply awesome. The entire airport could hear him on the radio talking back to his Company CP. He called for and adjusted artillery fire, mortars, gave fire commands to his gunners; the whole deal. Sgt Cox and his Marines fought like hell that night. I have no doubt that they inflicted heavy casualties among their attackers. Someone had about an hour of the radio traffic on a tape recording. I always thought that they should have sent the tape to Squad Leader School and The Basic School, where the instructors could tell the students, "OK, listen to this. Here's how Marines should be led while in combat!”
As luck would have it, the last enemy mortar round of the night hit the roof of the building that Sgt Cox was on. It killed him and seven other Marines. Some of the M-203 gunners were wearing grenade vests and their extra rounds detonated. The rooftop position had been turned into a scene of utter carnage. The Company CP sent a lone, incredibly brave Marine, L/CPL Clayburn, down to Sgt. Cox’s position to assess the situation. He crawled about 300 meters on his belly as the Shiites attempted to shoot him. They actually shot through one of the canteens on his cartridge belt; he was very lucky not to take a round in his body. He got to Sgt Cox’s position, saw the gore and left in a panic for the Company Command Post. When he arrived back at the Company CP his Lieutenant asked, "Clayburn did you remember to bring back the crypto gear?” He had not and the look on his face said it all. There was no way he wanted to have to make another trip to Sgt Cox’s position. The Lieutenant said, "Let's go back and get it". They both departed for Sgt. Cox’s position and it was the same shooting gallery as L/CPL Clayburn’s first trip.
When they reached Sgt Cox’s position, the Lieutenant, by his own admission, was badly shaken by what he saw. The dead Marines were in really bad shape; none remained in one entire piece. The Lieutenant found Sgt Cox’s body. The last time he had seen Sgt Cox two days prior he was passing out cigars celebrating the birth of his child. He respected and admired Sgt Cox and the loss of this fine Marine greatly affected him.
Whenever I look at Sgt Cox’s name on the wall of the Beirut Memorial I always think about the devastated family he left behind. He was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star Medal for Valor. Throughout the remainder of my career, whenever I heard the term NCO or Squad Leader or Marine Sergeant, I always thought of Sgt Cox as the standard to measure everyone else by. What a Marine. What a loss.
The hardest name to look at is that of Edward J. Gargano. He was a Corporal assigned to the Dragons platoon. He had been assigned to support my company in the Grenada operation and had moved with my platoon at times.
In January of 1984, Corporal Gargano was told to bring up a squad of Marines from the airport to the temporary U.S. Embassy site where my platoon was. The helicopter landing zone was a large parking lot on the Mediterranean coast. Though it was not an ideal landing zone, we used it on and off because we had no other alternatives. It was located in a very dangerous West Beirut neighborhood, so we went loaded for bear every time we went down there.
The first helo landed on that fateful day and the Marines ran out and took cover behind a stone wall at the edge of the LZ. As the second helo touched down all hell broke loose. I was on top of a building and saw several RPG's streaking by the helicopters, heard the sound of automatic weapons fire and saw green and red tracers zipping around in every direction. Most of my positions were under small arms fire and I could tell that the Marines were returning the same.
A Marine next to me pointed at the LZ and said, “Sir, look!” I saw a Marine laid out in the open. I could see that bullets were hitting all around him. I then saw a Marine run about 75 yards to the wounded man. As he ran the enemy fire increased in volume and I saw bullets hitting the ground inches behind him. I could see tracers flying all around him. It was exactly like those war movies we watched as kids where the good guy always seems to outrun the bullets. The Marine reached down and scooped up the wounded man in one motion and started back to safety. Once again tracers were zipping around everywhere. I saw shrubbery and tree branches falling next to the LZ as bullets cut them away as the enemy tried to hit the Marines as they returned to a safe position.
Amazingly, PFC Gorham (the rescuer) was not hit during his heroic run to retrieve his wounded buddy, nor was Cpl Gargano. Cpl Gargano, however, had been hit earlier by a bullet (7.62). PFC Gorham was running the show at this point and he called me for a MedEvac helo and remembered to request that it go to another landing zone that was down the road a bit and not in the line of fire. His presence of mind and coolness under fire will remain with me for as long as I live. He was just a kid, maybe a year out of high school. But on that day, his actions were those from which legends are made!
I would estimate that the entire rescue of the Cpl Gargano took perhaps less than two minutes, but I remember it like a slow motion NFL highlight film. No matter how many times I recall this event, it always plays in my mind in the same exact slow motion manner.
By the time I linked up with Cpl Gargano he was unconscious and was probably already dead. As we worked on him trying to get him breathing via CPR, massive amounts of blood came out of his mouth and nose with each thrust of the Doc’s hands; it was obvious that the bullet had hit his heart or aorta. I think we all knew what the deal was, but the Doc and other Marines continued to at least try to do something.
The tactical situation faded quickly and quiet returned to the area. The radios were booming with traffic as we tried to assess if there were any other casualties. The Doc came over and told me that Corporal Gargano was dead. I had the radio-man call the Battalion CP and change the MedEvac from priority to routine, as I did not want to cause the MedEvac helo to risk flying into a hot LZ now that there was no chance of saving his life.
Evidently the MEU staff was getting micro-managed from Washington and they wanted specifics about where Corporal Gargano had been hit. I went back to Cpl Gargano to verify the specific location of his wound. I was alone at this point with his body and I lifted his shirt up and had to roll him over to get to the wound. Sure enough, just below his right armpit there was a jagged hole about as big as a dime, with no exit wound. As I moved him I could hear blood sloshing around inside his lungs and stomach; the bullet must have really torn things up inside of him.
To this day I remember how young and fresh faced he looked. He looked so peaceful, as if he was asleep. I had done a lot of thinking since the October 23rd suicide truck bombing of the BLT Headquarters and had read the stories about all of the shattered families back home. I thought of Corporal Gargano’s parents back in the states and could only imagine what this was going to do to them.
The only thing that I could think of to do was to reach down and give his face the caress that his mother would never be able to. I said a prayer, returned to my Marines and did my best to look composed and give them the direction they desperately needed. I don't know how well I pulled it off, but inside, my heart was aching with sadness.
A week later Newsweek magazine ran a short story on Cpl Gargano's death. The article contained a recruit picture of him in his Dress Blue uniform. I saved that article and for the rest of my career I kept it in my office. I would put it in a spot that caused me to look at it at least once a day. It always helped me keep things in perspective and to remember just how ugly our profession can be. Occasionally, other Marines would see me looking at the picture and they would ask me about it. I used to tell them that the picture reminded me of why I was a Marine and of the great responsibility I had to the parents and families of the Marines entrusted to me.
Rarely does a day go by that I do not think of that event. For better or worse, it shaped a great deal of who I was as a Marine and how I approached my role as a leader of the finest men I have ever known. Sorry to ramble so, Tom. The month of October always brings back memories of those days.
Semper Fi,
Mike

[BIG TEXAN]

My grandfather was a retired colonel and was there when the Allies stormed the beaches in Normandy. I grew up in his shadow and in the thirty plus years that I knew him never, and I do mean never, did he once tell a single story of any battle he was in and he was wounded three times and has the purple hearts to prove it. The only thing he ever said was “I lost brothers, I lost friends and I lost a part of me that will never come back no matter if I talk about it or not. Some things you just don’t talk about boy and killing people is something no man wants to talk about”.

I know exactly how he feels Jugg..... somethings just have to be left unsaid......

[takara]

Robin Williams once made a comment about men in one of his stand up routines that stated "If you can't **** it, then kill it." This statement is seems to hold true when it comes to men. sex and violence seem to drive people to do amazing and sometimes stupid things. Here's a thought what would life be like if you took out the sex and/or the violence... pretty dull existance if you ask me.

[M PWR]

Some men do like war, I know mates that have been and want to go again. (but there are lots of strange people out there)

It's like there are lots of guys out there who like fighting (fist fights)

-Sean

[adamw1]

What i would like to know is since man existed on earth how many days has there been that we have had world peace because i just tried and failed to work it out as best i could cuz there has always been some kind of war somewhere in the world going on

[groverman1]

I have been in war. I have not killed anyone. I have not in been in a close quarter battle. War is lots of down time with bits of adrenalin induced action thrown in. After reading many biographies of famous generals and admirals of the US, UK, and Germany I have come to the realization that war is necessary. All throughout recorded history war is prevelant. Either you want more ( freedom, land, money etc..) or you have to defend the agressor war will continue to take place until the end. I am not a warmonger by any mean but it is an ugliness that is sometimes needed. I also respect those that have not only been killed or wounded in war but those who also fight the day to day war that takes place right here in the USA. We are like many great civilizations of the past ( Romans, etc...) and one day we will fall too. So I would say it is our genes and mental makeup to fight and make war.

[palme]

This thread really caught me and that email your boss wrote is really touching Jugg.

How does the quote go? There are no winners in war only lossers...? As tempting as the thought of war is i think it´s something nobody really wants to take part in.

[3Vandoo]

My grand-father was a Para in WW2. For the rest of his life, from 1945 to his death in June of 95. Every nights he was waking up yelling at his men, crying, trembling from what he had experienced. When I was a kid, I remember while I was playing Gi Joe, "Im going to be a soldier in the future." I said. Poor grand da he was freaking out everytimes I was saying that. I remember one day, while he was here, he got very mad, and he told me "On my lifetime on earth, if ever you join the Army, im going to kill you as no other man has to kill my blood". Indeed, the old man freaked me out.
Everytime I was spending time with him, he spent some time telling me about WW2, never he did shared his stories. Often he paused and sighed very deeply, and in his eyes you could see more than just the lighting reflects. He was sad, very sad, and hurt.

Well, I joined the Army, after he passed away. And like the grand-father, me too I am wearing the maroon beret. I've served in Bosnia, Crotia, Haitie, East-Timor, Kosovo, in some nice parts of Africa and Asia. My last deployment was from September 2001 to Dec 2001. I was on stand by for Iraq, but the Canadian gov backed down.

What I have to say for war?

It is in our genes? No, we have a killer instinct that help us to perform in survival situation and war is a survival situation. Why a normal man who is a school teacher who never was violent in his life suddenly kills people in a civil war, I only let that to pyschologist that might argue that some individuals or human being have a tendancy to follow some leader, tendeing of the consequencies.


My first deployment was in Bosnia, and for the rest of my life, I will remember
the woman that was crucified and when we rushed to help her, and her son crying next to her. We had a nice welcoming ceremony, a sniper shot the kid, and then shot the woman.

Same deployment, why some police officers shot two kids in front of our eyes.
and I can go on and on.

When I came back home, I was changed, I was sad, not very depressive but not so far from it. Since, I dont smile, and I am very stoic. John Locke would be very proud of me.

Why when I arrived in Suai (East Timor) with the Aussie as an advance team, we found a church burnt down, 200 people were killed in that church burnt alive.
Why?

There is nothing glorified in war, some people says, there no winners in a war.
I have to disagree with them. Some totally win a war, yes. But, again, some philosophers might say yes " but some lost their innocence". Ive lost my innocence the first time I held the C7(M16A2). Sometime I am very proud of what I did overseas, or I am very proud and I could brag for hours about my unit and his capabilities. But everytime, I come back home from a theather of operations, I think back and I am proud of what I did, I am also ashamed of what I did, and I have no explainations, as I only say I did my job. I remember back in an university seminar, a tree hugger was saying to the teacher that all war momuments are glorification of war and soldiers. I got so mad and I told her
"ITS ****ING RESPECTS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT GIVE THEIR LIVE SO ****S LIKE YOU HAVE A SAYING AGAINST US" She did shut up. As for war momuments, they are a sign of respects to soldiers but also represent pride, and this pride is totally different from the pride as you might know.

Movies, are a bunch of bastards. Never I will find a movie that represent good military actions or correctness. (LOL, the only one I know is that movie with Crow, where he works as a security counsultant, (very paying btw), sorry I dont remember the title.

Movies, especially in the US, must be entertaining, must have some actions and have to sell themselves, and unfortunately since 01, they show such a bad image about what is reality.

I remember on my last tour, while we were sweaping some caves, the brits on a side, the Aussie on another side and another team in backup. We were pinned by heavy machine gun fires. OK no big deal, in fact it help us to relax a bit. So next to me, the US officers called an air strike on the ennemy position. That position had possibly 40-50 people. Suddenly roar and thunder arrived, a French plane arrived and just gave them hell! One of the yank there, just shooted "cooooooool" me I was looking at the smoke and I was sad, we helped slaughered people, but at the same time I had no compassion for what they did, only felt sad because they were men like me, with wive, children, friends, family back home.

Yes some men do like war, they like the rush the actions. Me I am totally partial to it. Yes some are totally war dogs, and they are like Julius Ceasra's dogs of war, only waiting to get loose again. I know many men like that.
Ive learned of theories that says, where there is more men that women, and they dont know what the hell to do, they do war(Africa).

History, has proven that the men deciding, that want war, never went in combat, never had any experiences what so ever. Too often, the old men decide that the young should die. The deciding men, that have experiences will seek war at the last expenses, after they overlooked all possibilities.

I've lost friends in

Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan and as I look back, I have no ideas why! They went as soldiers, acted like soldiers and died like soldiers. That the only explaination I have and that is enought for now! But to God, I wish people like Mr. Bush, that throw war for his own fame and power, go and go look the mothers, wive and children of the soldiers that his actions killed. The consequences that he bares on his shoulders. NEVER again, I want to go give my condolences to a mother that lost in child in war. NEVER! her eyes goes throught you, it hurts, painfull, they have pride and they have anger, the looks of their eyes are confused, sweet and mad, that it just knock the **** out of you.

[Nathan]

I just wanted to add that this whole thread was really stupid and had I actually rad any of it, I'm sure I'd have found it boring too. Up yours.

[Animal Cracker]

War is conflict. Fighting is an elemental exposition of the age old effort to survive.
As long as man exists, there will be war.

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood.

-Gen. George Patton

War is a horrible thing, but often necessary,..which is the political side. The side of man and his insitncts..yes it is in his nature to fight, wage war and conquer. Humans are predators...some breeds more civilized, some less.