Mid cycle blood work - couple of questions

[jackfrost88]

Hello, so I'm running 300mg of test C, 600mg of EQ, and 500iu of HCG and got my bloods drawn 5 weeks into cycle. I won't post up the whole thing but the highlights and things that are out of range.

RBC - HIGH 5.98 (4.14 - 5.8)
Hemoglobin - HIGH 18.1 (13.0 - 17.7)
Hematocrit - HIGH 54 (37.5 - 51)

These are slightly out of range, however, they were about the same levels PRE cycle so I am not too concerned about these. I could give blood but they haven't moved from my baseline which has always been slightly out of range on the high side over 4 different blood tests I've had NOT on steroids.

AST(SGOT) - HIGH 59 (0-40)
ALT (SGPT) - HIGH 62 (0-44)

So these appear to be liver enzymes that are elevated. I am not on any orals so am a bit surprised by this. Should I be concerned / any steps I can take to reduce these?

Testosterone, Serum HIGH 1342 (264 - 916)

Natural level was 460. This is on 300mg test C / week. Is this about in line with what one would expect from 300mg of test?

LH - LOW 0.1 (1.7-8.6)
FSH - LOW 0.2 (1.5-12.4)

Just curious if this is normal even when on HCG? Should my LH and FSH not be inflated from it? Or would HCG not boost these on the test but have the same effect in the body?

Estradiol - LOW <0.5 (7.6-42.6)

This is the most confusing to me. So my E2 is super low even though I am NOT on any AI alongside 300mg of test and 600mg EQ. What could be the reason for this?

Any help or experience is GREATLY APPRECIATED as I know very little on this stuff other than what google tells me. Thanks you!

[GearHeaded]

so your Hematocrit baseline was 54 BEFORE beginning your EQ cycle ?? what was your last couple of cycles and how long ago ?

[jackfrost88]

so your Hematocrit baseline was 54 BEFORE beginning your EQ cycle ?? what was your last couple of cycles and how long ago ?

Hematocrit before even touching a steroid was 52 correct. So up a bit but well within the margin of error. Only have done 1 cycle before. That was test400 for 12 weeks last summer

I should also add that both my parents test high for hematocrit / RBC levels and do not work out and are in their 60s. I live at high altitude and even my bloodwork at 16 years old never touching a weight showed high levels of these 3 that I had a doctor look at

[GearHeaded]

regarding HCG and your LH levels.. keep in mind that Hcg does not stimulate LH production , it only mimics LH for the testes . where as clomid will help stimulate the actual production of the hormone in the body.

regarding EQ and estrogen.. everyone thinks that EQ is somewhat estrogenic, but its really not. it actually promotes the production of an anti estrogenic enzyme in the body (I can't think of the name off the top of my head).. so the longer your on EQ the more this enzyme elevates and the less estrogen you'll produce.

so it makes total sense with EQ your estrogen levels would go down over time.. however, with supplementing with 300mg of test your E shouldn't be that low. Unless your a hyper responder to this anti estrogen enzyme from the Eq

[GearHeaded]

Hematocrit before even touching a steroid was 52 correct. So up a bit but well within the margin of error. Only have done 1 cycle before. That was test400 for 12 weeks last summer

I should also add that both my parents test high for hematocrit / RBC levels and do not work out and are in their 60s. I live at high altitude and even my bloodwork at 16 years old never touching a weight showed high levels of these 3 that I had a doctor look at

curious, do you live at high elevation , or any possibility of you having untreated sleep apnea or other breathing problems ?

[jackfrost88]

curious, do you live at high elevation , or any possibility of you having untreated sleep apnea or other breathing problems ?

Yes haha, I just edited my post to add that in. In addition, both my parents have tested high on these same levels (rbc, hematocrit, hemoglobin) and do not workout. I live in high altitude and my family immigrated from a mountain region in Russia so I beleive it is genetic. A doctor looked into sleep apnea and found I did not have that.

[GearHeaded]

well when I first seen your hematocrit levels I thought to myself "well maybe EQ does raise rbc more then other AAS" .. theres a lot of bro myth out there that EQ raises RBC at a much higher level then other AAS , and I"ve been a proponent of saying that I've never seen this confirmed on blood work and there is no proof that Eq raises RBC any faster then deca or anadrol.

so at first I thought maybe I was wrong and learning something new here but come to find out you've always had high hematocrit, live at high elevation, and its NOT a direct effect of the Eq necessarily

so I actually consider your case more evidence that EQ does not drastically raise hematocrit any more severely then other similar AAS

[jackfrost88]

well when I first seen your hematocrit levels I thought to myself "well maybe EQ does raise rbc more then other AAS" .. theres a lot of bro myth out there that EQ raises RBC at a much higher level then other AAS , and I"ve been a proponent of saying that I've never seen this confirmed on blood work and there is no proof that Eq raises RBC any faster then deca or anadrol.

so at first I thought maybe I was wrong and learning something new here but come to find out you've always had high hematocrit, live at high elevation, and its NOT a direct effect of the Eq necessarily

so I actually consider your case more evidence that EQ does not drastically raise hematocrit any more severely then other similar AAS

No my hematocrit is essentially unchanged from where I've been for the last 15 years. I have only rarely tested in range and its always right on borderline high.

You seem to like analyzing these types of things so here's a couple ideas I've had. I've noticed on EQ bro science seems to say that it raises RBC/hematocrit levels. This is evidenced by the increased endurance it gives. However, I believe this to be false. It does increase endurance but increased endurance DOES NOT mean higher RBC. I think there is another mechanism it increases endurance through. I base this based on the fact that my RBC levels are the exact same and my endurance is through the roof.

Also, the idea that EQ will not show gains or its effect until week 6+ in a cycle. People look at the half life (i believe it is 15/16 days for EQ) and then point to when peak blood levels are and think that you won't feel it until blood levels are peaked. I believe This is incorrect because the drug is in your system once you pin it, and peak blood levels are NOT required for it to work. Only for it to work optimally. Two very different things. I base this on the fact that I felt noticeable benefits only 1.5 weeks into this cycle. And the telltale signs of EQ such as hunger and endurance. Additionally, I packed on quality size and my strength int he gym was at a point I haven't seen before.

There is the possibility of a placebo effect but I try to be objective as possible and find that the common bro science out there on EQ is very much incorrect in my experience.

[jackfrost88]

Any ideas on my estrogen being low while not being on any AI? This seems unusual. What could be causing it? Or is it even an issue?

[Kyle1337]

Any ideas on my estrogen being low while not being on any AI? This seems unusual. What could be causing it? Or is it even an issue?

Are you sure they gave you an E2 test? that's insanely low. That's full on crashed. Also you need to get rid of some blood. I'm naturally high hemotocrit as well, but anything above 52 i feel like a fat ass slug. I struggle to get below 47% unless I drain myself every other week. I generally drop 16oz of blood every 4 weeks and I remain high 40%s.

[jackfrost88]

Are you sure they gave you an E2 test? that's insanely low. That's full on crashed. Also you need to get rid of some blood. I'm naturally high hemotocrit as well, but anything above 52 i feel like a fat ass slug. I struggle to get below 47% unless I drain myself every other week. I generally drop 16oz of blood every 4 weeks and I remain high 40%s.

It is the test for estradiol which I thought was E2. Also don't feel sluggish at all with elevated hematocrit.

[GearHeaded]

I always find it interesting that guys talk about getting fatigued or sluggish with elevated hematocrit ,, when athletes, especially endurance athletes, take steroids and drugs like EPO (Erythropoietin) for the sole purpose of raising their Hematocrit into the high above normal range to get the performance and endurance benefits of high levels of RBC.. cyclists have been known to keep their Hematocrit up near 60 for races.

yet us bodybuilders get sluggish and fatigued when we are just on the high end of normal ?

theres more going on to this fatigue factor and a reason you feel better after donating blood, and its probably not the drop in hematocrit.

[GearHeaded]

Any ideas on my estrogen being low while not being on any AI? This seems unusual. What could be causing it? Or is it even an issue?

I mentioned above that EQ produces some anti estrogen effect via upregualtion of an anti estrogen enzyme (can't remember the name of it).

is it an issue having low estrogen ? YES. your limiting all sorts of growth potential. Estrogen plays a role in IGF production in the liver, HGH production, HDL cholesterol, also nitric oxide and vascular elasticity , etc. Estrogen is very anabolic especially in the presence of elevated androgens. Low estrogen while on cycle is going to limit growth compared to elevated estrogen levels.

[kelkel]

I mentioned above that EQ produces some anti estrogen effect via upregualtion of an anti estrogen enzyme (can't remember the name of it).

Or the estradiol test is flawed. Normally standard estradiol reads higher in men.

[jackfrost88]

I mentioned above that EQ produces some anti estrogen effect via upregualtion of an anti estrogen enzyme (can't remember the name of it).

is it an issue having low estrogen ? YES. your limiting all sorts of growth potential. Estrogen plays a role in IGF production in the liver, HGH production, HDL cholesterol, also nitric oxide and vascular elasticity , etc. Estrogen is very anabolic especially in the presence of elevated androgens. Low estrogen while on cycle is going to limit growth compared to elevated estrogen levels.

Could this be an issue with the drugs interfering with the test? Would you recommend lowering the EQ and upping the test to compensate? I do not have any low estrogen symptoms currently

[jackfrost88]

Or the estradiol test is flawed. Normally standard estradiol reads higher in men.

Got the blood test done by privatemdlabs

[kelkel]

Got the blood test done by privatemdlabs

Understood but they're not doing it themselves. Main point is that standard estradiol is geared to women. Men should use the sensitive E2 assay. Caveat though is standard estradiol normally reads higher in men, not lower as yours is. Quite the conundrum.

[GearHeaded]

Could this be an issue with the drugs interfering with the test? Would you recommend lowering the EQ and upping the test to compensate? I do not have any low estrogen symptoms currently

you could simply add in the oral version of EQ , which is very estrogenic without a whole lot of added dht conversion like test. now what is this oral version of EQ I speak of , well you probably have heard of it.. its called Dbol (yes EQ and Dbol are the same drug, difference being Dbol is orally available and 17 alkalated, but this makes them react very differently in the body)
. 20mg per day will give you added estrogen and a couple of other benefits as well.

[GearHeaded]

OR . you could not worry about it if you feel fine, and as Kel is saying there may of been a problem with the lab testing itself

[jackfrost88]

OR . you could not worry about it if you feel fine, and as Kel is saying there may of been a problem with the lab testing itself

Thanks for the quick replies, i'll do a little research after work and figure this out.

[kelkel]

Is it UGL gear?

[jackfrost88]

Is it UGL gear?

Yes. Reputable private lab in my area. Used them before. Test C was real judging by my bloodwork. Not sure what else it could be. No such thing as pharma EQ so i guess there's a risk