The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

[amcon]

intresting and informative... their i christian debat over a preadomite world... and their is some reasoning for it that makes sence... here is what beleive:

God created earth, and ever thing on it... our bible goes in to detail how how that happened in gen.

if their was a pre adomite earth (people on earth before adam - from God of coarse) it is irrivelant and the spectualation of it doesnt change the savation needed to go to heaven...

but, i do find opinions of this debate intresting... the two people i like to study on the subject is chuck missler, doc keneth hovind, and clarence larken. all give dif perspectives i find that doc hovind is very conservative and backs his thoughts with simple bible verses, clarence larken is very informative and though i have fought against his points they are very strong and i al of late have gotten deeper in to his ideas with study, and chuck missler is very interestion because he gives very good back ground on why he beleives what he believes - some intelegent spectulation, and some detailed biblical study...

thanks for the info buffed

[BuffedGuy]

it is always delighting to read ur thread so keep it coming.
as for derek's question i think surat Al-jinn the 72nd verse (surah) in Quran it has some good explanation of al-jinn (spirits) maybe that would be helpfull to find out some extra stuff.

may god {allah} [s.w.t] give you more knowledge and guide you to the traight path.

Jazakh-Allah Khair.

I think all religions believe in some sort of spirits, demons, etc. We just call it "jinn", and yes, Satan is a jinn.

I have a question for Christians: do you guys also believe in little satans? We Muslims believe that The Satan has children, which are the little satans.

intresting and informative... their i christian debat over a preadomite world... and their is some reasoning for it that makes sence... here is what beleive:

God created earth, and ever thing on it... our bible goes in to detail how how that happened in gen.

if their was a pre adomite earth (people on earth before adam - from God of coarse) it is irrivelant and the spectualation of it doesnt change the savation needed to go to heaven...

but, i do find opinions of this debate intresting... the two people i like to study on the subject is chuck missler, doc keneth hovind, and clarence larken. all give dif perspectives i find that doc hovind is very conservative and backs his thoughts with simple bible verses, clarence larken is very informative and though i have fought against his points they are very strong and i al of late have gotten deeper in to his ideas with study, and chuck missler is very interestion because he gives very good back ground on why he beleives what he believes - some intelegent spectulation, and some detailed biblical study...

thanks for the info buffed

Thanks for your input, Amcon. Very interesting. That is a good word to use, i.e. "Pre-Adomite peoples".

[D7M]

I have a question for Christians: do you guys also believe in little satans? We Muslims believe that The Satan has children, which are the little satans.

bro, go bump my thread...I don't want to hijack yours if I answer that here...

[SampsonandDelilah]

Jazakh-Allah Khair.

I think all religions believe in some sort of spirits, demons, etc. We just call it "jinn", and yes, Satan is a jinn.

I have a question for Christians: do you guys also believe in little satans? We Muslims believe that The Satan has children, which are the little satans.



Thanks for your input, Amcon. Very interesting. That is a good word to use, i.e. "Pre-Adomite peoples".

Yes...they're called Democrats

(as far as I know Lucifer has no children)

[D7M]

as far as I know Lucifer has no children

Right.

Satan cannot physically reproduce, in the Christian tradition, because he has no physicality. As an angel (though a fallen one) he is pure intellect, a spiritual being.

The other demons are the ones who fell with Satan.

[BuffedGuy]

A lil joke I made:

A black man and Muslim are sitting in the back of a police car. The black man says: "A black man can't get a fair trial nowadays!" The Muslim looks at him incredulously: "You get a trial!?"

[chicmagnet]

Hey Buffed great thread, real eye opener. Just wondering what you thought about speaking in tongues as evidence of recieving the holy spirit, as in the day of pentecost, and baptism by full immersion as John always did in a river. Baptize (greek) immerse?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, ChicMagnet.

Hey Buffed great thread, real eye opener.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Just wondering what you thought about speaking in tongues as evidence of recieving the holy spirit, as in the day of pentecost,

First, Muslims do not accept the concept of the Trinity, or a triune godhead. We firmly believe in One God without partners or parts. According to our belief, the negation of the Trinity is one of the major reasons that God Almighty sent down Prophet Muhammad [s] after Prophet Jesus [as].

The Trinity is made up of three persons: (1) the Father "who art in Heaven", (2) the Son (Jesus), and (3) the Holy Spirit. We Muslims believe that only the first one is God, the Creator of all things. The second two (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) are creation, blessed servants of God Almighty. We reject the idea that Jesus [as] is the son of God, and we believe that he is a blessed prophet like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

As for the Holy Spirit, we believe that this is the Arch-Angel Gabriel [as]. Gabriel is the highest of the Angels, commissioned by God Almighty to convey the Message from God to the Prophets. The Quran says:

“And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs--and supported him with the Holy Spirit." (Quran, 2:87)

"We endowed the Messengers with gifts, some above others. To some of them God spoke to directly; others, He raised to degrees of honor; and to Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave clear miracles, and supported him with the Holy Spirit." (Quran, 2:253)

The Holy Spirit, i.e. Gabriel, is the one who revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammad [s], as the Quran says:

“And when you recite the Quran, seek refuge in God...Proclaim! The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen those who believe, and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted to God." (Quran, 16:102)

God said to Prophet Muhammad [s]:

"Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, which the Holy Spirit has brought down upon your heart." (Quran, 26:193)

And:

"Proclaim! Whosoever is an enemy to Gabriel--for surely it is he who brings down the revelation to your heart by God's Will, confirming that which was revealed before it, and guidance and glad tidings to those who believe--Whosoever is an enemy to God, His Angels and Messengers, of Gabriel and Michael--Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith." (Quran, 2:97-98)

Anyways, to conclude, we say that the Holy Spirit is the Arch-Angel Gabriel [as], and not a part of, or partners with, God.

Now to answer your question (finally!): we do not believe in speaking in tongues or any such thing. If any Muslim were to claim such a thing, it would be considered an affront to the Islamic orthodoxy.

and baptism by full immersion as John always did in a river. Baptize (greek) immerse?

We believe in and affirm John the Baptist (peace be upon him), whom we consider a blessed prophet of God. The Quran says about Prophet John:

"'O John, hold fast to the Scripture!' We gave him compassion and purity, for he was righteous. He honored his parents, and was never overbearing or rebellious. Peace be upon him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised to life." (Quran, 19:12-15)

As for whether or not we believe in baptism, the answer is yes and no. When a person converts to Islam, he is instructed to have a ritual bath (ghusl), which symbolizes the washing away of spiritual impurities. However, Christians believe that the ritual bath has to do with Original Sin, the death and resurrection of Jesus. Muslims reject the idea of Original Sin, as well as the idea that Jesus [as] was the Son of God. As such, the Quran commands us to say:

"The baptism of God have we received, and who is better than God to baptize? Him do we worship." (Quran, 2:138)

So to conclude, yes we have the concept of a ritual bath which is taken upon conversion to Islam. However, it is not the exact same belief as Christians.

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Derek, we are having a very good conversation. Sorry, but I will have to reply in a bit, God-Willing. The reply to NightWolf took forever!

[chicmagnet]

Thanks buffed I speak in tongues just curious as to your beliefs, lots of similarities.

[amcon]

Thanks buffed I speak in tongues just curious as to your beliefs, lots of similarities.

hey buffed whats up i am jumping in here just a little... oxox

chickmagnet - refer to 1 cor 14 ... read the chapter and get back to me in a new thread or if buffed doesnt mind here... or pm me

good to see you a save christian - brother

...

[chicmagnet]

hey buffed whats up i am jumping in here just a little... oxox

chickmagnet - refer to 1 cor 14 ... read the chapter and get back to me in a new thread or if buffed doesnt mind here... or pm me

good to see you a save christian - brother

...

JMHO this is during the operation of the spiritual gifts during a church meeting ie 1 person speaks in tongues( whilst everyone is quietly praying) then another interprets thru inspiration of God of course, this happens 3-4 times then after this comes 3-4 prophecies all by inspiration of course. The prophecies are the most desired because requires more faith to prophecy than to speak in tongues during this time.

[amcon]

JMHO this is during the operation of the spiritual gifts during a church meeting ie 1 person speaks in tongues( whilst everyone is quietly praying) then another interprets thru inspiration of God of course, this happens 3-4 times then after this comes 3-4 prophecies all by inspiration of course. The prophecies are the most desired because requires more faith to prophecy than to speak in tongues during this time.

yes with out getting to far in to it cause im going to bed... why were tongues used to start with? and as for prof of the holy spirit is tongues needed for that? did Jesus speak in tongues when John baptized him... btw these are just questions - the only important part is we are save and will meet Christ in the sky.

[chicmagnet]

yes with out getting to far in to it cause im going to bed... why were tongues used to start with? and as for prof of the holy spirit is tongues needed for that? did Jesus speak in tongues when John baptized him... btw these are just questions - the only important part is we are save and will meet Christ in the sky.

True that... Sorry buffed it's all your's

[Surreal]

What are your thoughts on temporary marriage licenses? Ever considered getting one with your flawless beauty for the purposes of taking her on a "test drive" before committing yourself indefinitely?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Surreal.

What are your thoughts on temporary marriage licenses? Ever considered getting one with your flawless beauty for the purposes of taking her on a "test drive" before committing yourself indefinitely?

"Temporary marriage" is nothing less than prostitution, and is completely forbidden in orthodox (Sunni) Islam. It is only permissible in Shi'ism.

Temporary marriage was a pre-Islamic custom of pagan Arabia. Prophet Muhammad [s] forbade it. The Prophet's disciple and the Fourth Caliph of Islam stated:

“The Messenger of God had forbidden temporary marriage on the Day of Khaibar.” (Sahih al-Bukhari)

And this is mass-transmitted from the Prophet's disciples. According to Sunni Islam, the punishment for the one who engages in it is lashing and/or death. Although the general rule of thumb is that fornication and adultery go unpunished (see my earlier post on this issue), the one who engages in so-called "temporary marriage" is punished swiftly to ensure that such atrocious beliefs do not become prevalent in society.

Keep in mind that 85-90% of Muslims are Sunnis. This issue, i.e. "temporary marriage", is one that causes a lot of friction between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Shi'ites believe that the narration from the Fourth Caliph of Islam--which forbids temporary marriage--was narrated under Taqiyyah. Taqiyyah is another belief specific to Shi'ism and rejected by orthodox Islam. Taqiyyah means that a person narrates something other than the truth for fear of religious persecution. This belief evolved in Shi'ism due to Sunni persecution of the minority Shi'ites. (A similar thing to Taqiyyah evolved in Judaism, due to Christian persecution of Jews.)

In any case, orthodox (Sunni) Muslims reject both temporary marriage and Taqiyyah. We say: how can you know anything of a religion when you don't know what is true and what is a lie? Furthermore, the prohibition of temporary marriage has been mass-transmitted through numerous disciples of the Prophet other than the Fourth Caliph.

One of my first posts in this thread (check the first page) explains the difference between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Like I said there, I consider Shi'ism to be a separate religion altogether.

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Someone asked me this:

Where is dar ad-dawah, which you put as your location?

Dar ad-Dawah is not a city or a country. Rather, it translates to "The Abode of Spreading Awareness." I live in the United States, and so I am saying that I live in Dar ad-Dawah, which is a more optimistic view to those who say it is Dar al-Harb (The Abode of War). I believe in peace and reconciliation by fostering understanding and awareness. I believe that the best way to do that is by getting to know each other. I believe that the environment of war frenzy--which is prevalent in certain groups both in America and in the Muslim world--is only sustained by ignorance of the other.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[Surreal]

Peace be unto you, Surreal.



"Temporary marriage" is nothing less than prostitution, and is completely forbidden in orthodox (Sunni) Islam. It is only permissible in Shi'ism.

Temporary marriage was a pre-Islamic custom of pagan Arabia. Prophet Muhammad [s] forbade it. The Prophet's disciple and the Fourth Caliph of Islam stated:

“The Messenger of God had forbidden temporary marriage on the Day of Khaibar.” (Sahih al-Bukhari)

And this is mass-transmitted from the Prophet's disciples. According to Sunni Islam, the punishment for the one who engages in it is lashing and/or death. Although the general rule of thumb is that fornication and adultery go unpunished (see my earlier post on this issue), the one who engages in so-called "temporary marriage" is punished swiftly to ensure that such atrocious beliefs do not become prevalent in society.

Keep in mind that 85-90% of Muslims are Sunnis. This issue, i.e. "temporary marriage", is one that causes a lot of friction between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Shi'ites believe that the narration from the Fourth Caliph of Islam--which forbids temporary marriage--was narrated under Taqiyyah. Taqiyyah is another belief specific to Shi'ism and rejected by orthodox Islam. Taqiyyah means that a person narrates something other than the truth for fear of religious persecution. This belief evolved in Shi'ism due to Sunni persecution of the minority Shi'ites. (A similar thing to Taqiyyah evolved in Judaism, due to Christian persecution of Jews.)

In any case, orthodox (Sunni) Muslims reject both temporary marriage and Taqiyyah. We say: how can you know anything of a religion when you don't know what is true and what is a lie? Furthermore, the prohibition of temporary marriage has been mass-transmitted through numerous disciples of the Prophet other than the Fourth Caliph.

One of my first posts in this thread (check the first page) explains the difference between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Like I said there, I consider Shi'ism to be a separate religion altogether.

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

I appreciate your thoughts. I understand that temporary marriage licenses have been largely granted for the purposes of prostitution, but do they serve any other purpose? For example, will it be possible for a couple to secure such a license to "tryout" marriage, or to engage in activities normally reserved for married couples (I'm thinking maybe something like sharing a room or bed together while on vacation?) before they're fully prepared and ready to commit to marriage.

Also, is it easy to secure a divorce for men of your position?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Surreal.

I appreciate your thoughts. I understand that temporary marriage licenses have been largely granted for the purposes of prostitution, but do they serve any other purpose? For example, will it be possible for a couple to secure such a license to "tryout" marriage, or to engage in activities normally reserved for married couples (I'm thinking maybe something like sharing a room or bed together while on vacation?) before they're fully prepared and ready to commit to marriage.

You would have to ask all of this to a Shi'ite. My personal belief--and the belief of the orthodox (Sunni) Islamic scholars--is that all this, i.e. a trial period, is the same thing that some Non-Muslim Westerners do when they date women. There doesn't seem to be any meaningful difference between the two. As such, if we are critical of one (dating), should we not be critical of the other (temporary marriage)? There seems to be no difference between the two other than semantics. Does not a rose still smell as sweet by any other name?

I think that this issue--of simply renaming something--is one of the overall criticisms of orthodox (Sunni) Islam of Shi'ism. For example, the Shi'ites believe in "Imams", which we believe is the same exact same thing as "Prophets". So we accuse them of negating the Finality of Prophethood (the Quran declares Prophet Muhammad [s] as the Final Seal of the Prophets). The Shi'ites say: "No, we believe in Imams that come after him, not Prophets." But we (Sunnis) say: There is no meaningful difference between what you call a prophet and what you call an Imam; the station is the same, and you simply changed the name. Similarly, and more offensive to our orthodox (Sunni) doctrine is that the Shi'ites supplicate in prayer (du`a) to their Imams, whereas the Quran forbids all du`a (supplication) except to God directly; when we challenge them, they say: "we are not doing du`a (supplication) to them, but rather we are doing Istighatha or Tawassul (seeking a means)." Our criticism of them is that the matter is the same, but you have simply changed the name 'du`a' to 'Istighatha' even though the action is the same.

In other words, simply giving a new name to something does not change the substance of said thing. Therefore, we believe that "temporary marriage" is just another name for fornication, adultery, prostitution, and/or dating. It should be known that Prophet Muhammad [s] specifically warned the Muslims that a time would come when people would rename things in order to make them permissible. And we see this today when so many "Islamic loans" are being offered, which supposedly get rid of interest but which in reality just call the "interest" as something else.

To conclude, we orthodox (Sunni) Muslims believe that marriage must be permanent and that there can be no "trial" or "shareware" period. I understand the logic behind dating: after all, we don't buy a car without test driving it first, so how about a life partner? But we believe that the entire dating experience creates an unstable system of relationships, causes divorces to skyrocket, creates broken families, children out of wedlock without father figures, etc.

As Muslims, we are instructed to remind the People of the Book of the way which they have lost. The Quran describes itself as "The Reminder"; in other words, there is nothing new in it. It was all taught to the People of the Book, but they forgot a part of it, so the Quran was sent to remind them. So we want to remind them that their own religion--the Abrahamic faiths in general--have forbidden dating.

Also, is it easy to secure a divorce for men of your position?

What do you mean "of your position"? Can you elaborate? I'm a broke medical student who lives on a $150 allowance per month. So can you explain what you mean by "your position"? lol

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[Surreal]

What do you mean "of your position"? Can you elaborate? I'm a broke medical student who lives on a $150 allowance per month. So can you explain what you mean by "your position"? lol

Someone with a religious and cultural background akin to yours.

[D7M]

you're over-analyzing it, bro.

If the label "liberal conservative Muslim" works for you, then great.

Though, I do understand your point.

You need to find a way to differentiate yourself from the extreme right.

I'm happy to be apart of your own self-understanding.

[BuffedGuy]

you're over-analyzing it, bro.

If the label "liberal conservative Muslim" works for you, then great.

Though, I do understand your point.

You need to find a way to differentiate yourself from the extreme right.

I'm happy to be apart of your own self-understanding.

Alright, cool. Liberal conservative am I.

I just don't want to claim that the problem doesn't exist, because if I do that, then there is no chance of fixing it. Plus, I just don't like being associated with intolerance, close-mindedness, etc. I like being able to practice my religion freely and letting others practice theirs freely. I don't think that it threatens my faith at all for others to practice theirs. Rather, I find great benefit in the other communities and of living in a pluralistic society. I especially do not like the "zero sum game" sort of thinking.

[BuffedGuy]

I liked this clip of David Chappelle's brother and an orthodox Jew, who is his best friend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJO6SNM7glo

That's what I like to say: cordial dialogue, appreciation, and tolerance, instead of aggressive confrontation of the other.

[BuffedGuy]

I wanted to comment on the post by BgMc in another thread. I don't want to hijack that thread, so I'll just post here in the thread almost nobody reads, lol. But to be serious, I think it is a very important issue, central to salvation. Of course I want to preface this by saying it is just our Muslim view, and obviously BgMc and others would disagree and have their own reasoning as to why they disagree. I just want to present our side of the story and hope it to be simply a part of interfaith dialogue and healthy debate, not aggressive bashing of anyone.

BgMc basically said what I think *some* Christians (and now some Muslims unfortunately) believe: they accept parts of the Scripture, and reject other parts of it. They say "we believe in God and we believe in the Book of God", but on the other hand, they say "we have rational logic, so we can make educated decisions for ourselves on which parts of the Holy Book to accept and which to reject."

In Islam, we have the very important concept that whoever rejects a part of the Book has rejected it completely. Either you accept all of it or you necessarily are rejecting all of it. God warns:

"Do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest?" (Quran, 2:85)

"They say: 'We believe in some but reject others, and desire to take a course midway'. They are in truth equally disbelievers; and we have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment." (Quran, 4:150-151)

Instead of explaining this concept myself, I am going to link to an excellent talk by an Islamic preacher, Nauman Ali Khan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zujZp...comment-page-1

It's the first 15 minutes of that talk. The talk is entitled "Do you intend to question the Messenger of God?"

I think this is the basis of faith, upon which salvation is based. Whoever questions God, His Books, or His Prophets, is in effect a disbeliever in all of them. The talk explains why this is so. He also explains the difference between asking a question *about* the religion (which is allowed and encouraged) and of questioning the religion (which is tantamount to disbelief).

I think this is an important topic in today's day and age, when religious revisionism is rampant, where people are trying to water down their religions in order to conform to man-made ethical beliefs, perhaps the greatest victory for the atheistic ethos of the post-Enlightenment belief system. But again, this is the belief of the orthodox Muslims and I know that others would disagree on this issue.

On a side-note, the guy in the video looks a lot like me (a skinnier version), and he also talks like me, haha. Oh yes, one more point: he uses a few Arabic words, so I'll just let you know what they mean here:

Ayaat = verse of the Quran
Moosa = Moses
Pharaon = Pharaoh
Yousuf = Joseph (as mentioned in the Bible)
Bani Israel = The Tribe of Israel

[BgMc31]

I wanted to comment on the post by BgMc in another thread. I don't want to hijack that thread, so I'll just post here in the thread almost nobody reads, lol. But to be serious, I think it is a very important issue, central to salvation. Of course I want to preface this by saying it is just our Muslim view, and obviously BgMc and others would disagree and have their own reasoning as to why they disagree. I just want to present our side of the story and hope it to be simply a part of interfaith dialogue and healthy debate, not aggressive bashing of anyone.

BgMc basically said what I think *some* Christians (and now some Muslims unfortunately) believe: they accept parts of the Scripture, and reject other parts of it. They say "we believe in God and we believe in the Book of God", but on the other hand, they say "we have rational logic, so we can make educated decisions for ourselves on which parts of the Holy Book to accept and which to reject."

In Islam, we have the very important concept that whoever rejects a part of the Book has rejected it completely. Either you accept all of it or you necessarily are rejecting all of it. God warns:

"Do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest?" (Quran, 2:85)

"They say: 'We believe in some but reject others, and desire to take a course midway'. They are in truth equally disbelievers; and we have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment." (Quran, 4:150-151)

Instead of explaining this concept myself, I am going to link to an excellent talk by an Islamic preacher, Nauman Ali Khan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zujZp...comment-page-1

It's the first 15 minutes of that talk. The talk is entitled "Do you intend to question the Messenger of God?"

I think this is the basis of faith, upon which salvation is based. Whoever questions God, His Books, or His Prophets, is in effect a disbeliever in all of them. The talk explains why this is so. He also explains the difference between asking a question *about* the religion (which is allowed and encouraged) and of questioning the religion (which is tantamount to disbelief).

I think this is an important topic in today's day and age, when religious revisionism is rampant, where people are trying to water down their religions in order to conform to man-made ethical beliefs, perhaps the greatest victory for the atheistic ethos of the post-Enlightenment belief system. But again, this is the belief of the orthodox Muslims and I know that others would disagree on this issue.

On a side-note, the guy in the video looks a lot like me (a skinnier version), and he also talks like me, haha. Oh yes, one more point: he uses a few Arabic words, so I'll just let you know what they mean here:

Ayaat = verse of the Quran
Moosa = Moses
Pharaon = Pharaoh
Yousuf = Joseph (as mentioned in the Bible)
Bani Israel = The Tribe of Israel

And therein lies the problem Buffed...religion to often deals in absolutes. And that is the reason it is THE major cause of more death and destruction than any other man-made phenomenon in the history of mankind.

Religion to me is deeply personal and because people are always trying to 'convert' others to their way of thinking it causes more problems than it solves.

Let's face it, holy books have been refuted by science time and again. There is no denying the fact that the Abrahamic faiths are all based on the Egyptian mythology of Horace and others. BUT that still doesn't dismiss the fact that religion has many ideas and practices that can help you live a very good life. The "Do unto others..." philosophy is based on religion and probably the greatest philosophy of how to live, there is. But you cannot possibly, in this day and age, live exactly according to any holy book written thousand of years ago.

All holy books are full of racism, sexism, and any other -ism you can think of. The bible condones these things, because it was written during a time when these things were acceptable. And because people today are still trying to follow these outdated ideals we have these ridiculous problems even within the religions themselves (ie Sunni v Shiite v Wahabist, Protestant v. Catholic v Mormon v Baptist, Othodox Jew v Hessidic Jew, etc. the list goes on and on).

The bible to me is like Aesops fables. There are lessons to learned in the stories. These lessons can be applied to many parts of one's life. I have a hard time believing in anything written by man. No one and absolutely no one alive can say that any holy book was written by a divinity. Everything in holy books is supposedly divinly inspired, akin to he said, she said. That is where faith comes into being. Your inner belief system tells you that these things happen but there is nothing concrete to prove them.

My father, a Christian minister and teacher, calls me a "convenient Christian", so be it. My father is a great man and my heroe, but we differ on many things. He doesn't love me any less for my beliefs and he believes eventually I'll come around. Religion and spirtuality is ever evolving in my life. Two years ago I was a devout athleist. But because I was missing something in my life, I decided to live a more spiritual existence. Believing there was nothing greater than myself and that I had all the answers wasn't working for me. So I began learning the principles of Christianity and found that I could live a good life following many of the principles. But I also recognized that many of my most intimate beliefs don't coincide with what the bible teaches. Therefore I cannot give myself totally to a belief system I don't whole-heartedly believe in. Saying something is concrete simply because a book, written by man, tells us so isn't logical, IMO.

Buffed, like my father, I admire your devotion to your faith. But even your brothers in Islam don't all believe as you do. Your continued defense of how Islam was "intended" to be practiced doesn't always coincide with how it IS practiced. But who am I to say which train of thought is correct.

I hope I've explained myself. If not, I welcome any and all criticism and questions.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, BgMc.

And therein lies the problem Buffed...religion to often deals in absolutes. And that is the reason it is THE major cause of more death and destruction than any other man-made phenomenon in the history of mankind.

I agree with you. The Quran itself says that the people only differed when divine knowledge was given to them. The Quran says:

"People who were given the scripture differed after they received (Divine) Knowledge, for they were unjust to each other." (Quran, 3:19)

But this does not mean that an absolute truth does not exist. Yes, people claiming that what they have is absolute truth can be divisive; even having the absolute truth itself can cause people to become divisive. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the Absolute Truth doesn't exist at all. That would be flawed logic.

It simply means that one should be cautious of this.

So the Quranic logic is that the believer should be just, kind, and courteous with those who do not agree with our religion, even whilst it posits itself as the Absolute Truth, wherein there is no doubt. Yes, many Muslims don't follow that, but again, it doesn't necessarily follow that there can be no absolute truth just because it would be divisive. The divisiveness of the followers does not mean that the religion itself preaches divisiveness. The Quran says:

"Hold fast you all to the rope of God and do not be divided amongst yourselves." (Qur'an 3:103)

Religion to me is deeply personal and because people are always trying to 'convert' others to their way of thinking it causes more problems than it solves.

Agreed. But the same thing I said above.

Let's face it, holy books have been refuted by science time and again.

I disagree with this. I can't speak for the Bible, but all I can say is that the Quran doesn't go into the details like the Bible does. The Quran is a book of religious guidance, not science. I don't think there is anything in the Quran that is refuted by science. I urge you to read the Quran. I've linked to a very good translation above. It's totally free.

Why not print out some of it and read it? (It's just better to read on paper as opposed to the computer screen.) I usually print pdf's four pages on one page, and four pages on the backside. So I manage to get eight pages on one computer page. Or you could obviously just read it off the computer. EDIT: You know what, if you PM me your address, I'll just ship you a free Quran, God-Willing. I think that might be best.

There is no denying the fact that the Abrahamic faiths are all based on the Egyptian mythology of Horace and others.

Again, I can't speak for Christianity or the Bible, but I can speak on behalf of Islam and the Quran. The fact that the Quranic stories are also found in ancient books (from Egypt mythology or whatever) does not disprove Islam at all; rather, it affirms Islam and is a proof *for* Islam. You see, we believe that all the nations of the world were sent prophets and holy books; there were more than 124,000 prophets in all.

Therefore, just because an ancient Greek or Egyptian book talks about the flood, this doesn't mean that the Bible just copied the story from them and that it didn't happen to Prophet Noah [as]. It simply means that other nations were also sent the stories of the prophets as well. The Quran itself affirms Progressive Revelation, so there is nothing really new in the Quran. It was all told to the people of ancient times, but they all perverted it, corrupted it, added their own words, deleted words, etc. So the Quran came to verify the truth in all that and to get rid of the corruption. And we believe the Quran is the Final Testament sent to mankind, perfecting all the books that came before it, and fixing all the mistakes which were introduced into those books. And we believe that God has promised to protect this Quran from corruption, unlike any other religious book.

All holy books are full of racism, sexism, and any other -ism you can think of. The bible condones these things, because it was written during a time when these things were acceptable.

I'm not going to speak on behalf of the Bible, but I can attest to the Quran. There is absolutely no racism, malicious sexism, or any other -ism in it. I don't ask you to take my word for it, but just read the Quran yourself. I've linked to it in the previous post.

My father, a Christian minister and teacher, calls me a "convenient Christian", so be it. My father is a great man and my heroe, but we differ on many things. He doesn't love me any less for my beliefs and he believes eventually I'll come around. Religion and spirtuality is ever evolving in my life. Two years ago I was a devout athleist. But because I was missing something in my life, I decided to live a more spiritual existence. Believing there was nothing greater than myself and that I had all the answers wasn't working for me. So I began learning the principles of Christianity and found that I could live a good life following many of the principles. But I also recognized that many of my most intimate beliefs don't coincide with what the bible teaches. Therefore I cannot give myself totally to a belief system I don't whole-heartedly believe in. Saying something is concrete simply because a book, written by man, tells us so isn't logical, IMO.

Your father calls you a "Convenient Christian." I am going to go one step further, and say I don't think you are Christian at all. Now don't get offended just yet, because I don't consider you a disbeliever in God. Rather, you are a theist and believer in God.

I think that if Christianity or the Bible doesn't fit for you, then read up on other religions. Read the religious texts of other faiths. I would ask you to read the Quran. The entire purpose of the Quran--as stated by itself--is that it came to "clean up" what was wrong in the Bible. Many converts to Islam from Christianity say that it was like a sanitized version of the Bible. One convert whom I linked to earlier said: "It felt like the Quran was the Old Testament and the New Testament put through a strainer."

Maybe you'll decide Islam is not for you; then study Judaism, other faiths, etc. You've already gone from atheism to theism. So you are not someone stubborn, but rather someone who wishes to learn and expand himself, and who will entertain new ideas, beliefs, etc.

But I think that no matter which faith you pick, it only logically makes sense to follow it 100%. The logic behind this statement is explained in the lecture I linked you to (in the first 15 minutes). I didn't write on this since I wanted you to watch the link, although maybe you won't have the time to do that. But at minimum, I think you owe it to yourself to read the Quran.

There is nothing to lose. Maybe you will like it and think Islam works for you. Maybe you will not like it or decide it is not for you, but you will come out of the experience with more knowledge, experience, and self-understanding.

Anyways, I'm done preaching, hehe. I just think you owe it to yourself to read the Quran, the most memorized book in the world...just like I tell Muslims that they owe it to themselves to read the Bible, the most sold book in the world. I think it's just a must.

I know I've turned preachy on you, and moved away from just spreading awareness which was my initial purpose on this site. But I just got a special feeling about you. Had it from the start. I don't know. Just intuition. Wallahu Aalim (and God knows best!)

[BgMc31]

Buffed,

I have began investigating other religions. I don't claim to know everything about any religion but I am aware of many rituals and beliefs of all the major religions. From what I've learned of all, they all have positives and negatives.

Thank for the suggestion to read the Quaran. I've downloaded your link. As I've downloaded the bible and pieces of the Torah. I also have copies of the dead sea scrolls, many ancient greek text, and books on Buddishm, and religious egyptian text. My spiritual journey is a lengthy one, but one I am prepared and eager to continue to make. Maybe I'll find a destination, maybe I won't, but one thing for sure it will be worth the trip!!!

Again, I admire your conviction in your faith. Living the life of the truely faithful is definately an ardious one. So I respect your commitment that seems unwavering even in these most troubling times.

Peace go with you my friend!!!

[countrybhoy]

salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16



For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7



the bible and all the other books do confuse people from time to time . but its state very clearly jesus and god are the same . ive taken to parts of the bible . truth be told i didnt want to post more as feel i am hijacking this thread .

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Countrybhoy.

You posted three verses. However, none of the three verses can serve as an explicit proof for the Trinity. The only one that comes close is the third one which you quoted, 1 John 57:

For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(1 John 5:7)

This verse is found in the King James Version. However, virtually *all* Biblical scholars agree that this verse is a fabrication and a latter day addition which was not a part of the original Bible. That is why you will *not* find this verse in *any* of the recent translations of the Bible, such as New Revised Standard Version, NIV, etc.

You can listen to what Dr. Bart Ehrman, a Bible scholar at the University of North Carolina, has to say about this verse. The clip is available here:

http://thedeenshow.com/gameshow.html

It is the first audio clip, numbered #28, and entitled "Misquoting Jesus: Scribes Who Altered Scripture." If you skip to 27:00, Dr. Ehrman explains how 1 John 5:7 is a fabrication. Although you don't have to take my word for it or his, just open up any newer translation of the Bible, and see for yourself: the verse has been removed.

Therefore, the reality is that this verse posted by you is actually a very strong proof *against* the concept of the Trinity. Since it is agreed that this verse was added to the Bible by an unscrupulous scribe, one can use this as a supporting proof for our Muslim thesis that the Christians added the entire concept of Trinity to the pure religion as taught by Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

The second verse you quoted was:

salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

We Muslims have no opposition to this verse at all. Salvation is most definitely in God's Prophets. Whoever believes in them, in what they preached, and in who sent them, attains salvation. This is the same message sent by Prophet Muhammad [s] who also said that salvation is through him, i.e. by obeying him, as he is a commissioned messenger of God. Whoever rejects the prophets--any one of them--has doomed himself.

I will respond to the third verse you quoted shortly, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[pyrat]

Are muslims really X-men?...

Yes, I was just telling my friend the other day how amazing the parallels are between being a mutant in the X-men and being a Muslim today. We have Muslims who are like X-Savior on the one hand, and meanwhile they do battle with the Magneto type Muslims who've just said "f em all." Sometimes when I debate with the extremists amongst our Muslim ranks, I can't help but recall the debates between X-Savior and Magneto...especially when X-Savior says: "They just hate us because they don't understand us." And also another thing that reminded me of the X-men was when people were saying "maybe Obama is a secret Muslim"...it reminded me of a scene in X-men where they accuse a politician of being a "secret mutant." And then there are the Magneto type Muslims who try to totally screw up the image of Muslims in America, so that the good will garnered by the X-Savior Muslims is thrown out the window.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...75#post4515775

i knew x-men were real!

[BuffedGuy]

Are muslims really X-men?...



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...75#post4515775

i knew x-men were real!

Yep, you nailed it.

[countrybhoy]

just so you know i have no ill feeling towards your religion my friend . infact i would like to see more people religious no matter which one they follow. i have never known a true believer in our lords work hate or dystroy anything . its the fanatics . oh and we have them too . look at billy graham (sp) . few sandwhiches short of a picnic that lad is .

[D7M]

I knew you'd be back...

[BuffedGuy]

I knew you'd be back...

I do love you guys.

[BgMc31]

Buffedguy, I'm glad you're back!!!

Anyway, I don't know if you saw the thread about the Confederate Flag, I felt like you for a minute because I was the only one against it. Oh well, it was a lively debate and enjoyed some of the educated responses.

Well, I have a question about Islam. I don't know if its been asked before but here it goes...The Taliban practices strict Sharia law, correct? Well does Islam support marital rape, because Karzai recently sanctioned it in the remote areas where Sharia law is practiced.

Here's an article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6025362.ece

I've recently been reading a Kaballa book and believe it or not, this book cites many references from the Quaran. Don't worry I have no desire to convert to Kaballa but it does have some interesting points akin to Buddhism.

[BuffedGuy]

..The Taliban practices strict Sharia law, correct? Well does Islam support marital rape, because Karzai recently sanctioned it in the remote areas where Sharia law is practiced.

Here's an article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6025362.ece

Islam forbids marital rape. The reason that the extremists like the Taliban think it is allowed is because Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"If a man calls his wife to his bed (without a valid reason)--and she refuses and causes him to sleep the night in anger--the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim)

The parenthesis above is from the Sharh Sahih Muslim by an-Nawawi.

So yes, the angels will curse a wife who without any reason refuses her husband's call to sexual intercourse. It is also true that the maidens of Paradise (i.e. the virgins you hear about on tv all the time) will say to your wife: "He is only yours for a limited amount of time, after which he will be ours." Yet, this is only if there is no valid reason. Valid reasons include being sick, exhausted, etc.

However, it should be noted that men are also commanded to fulfill the sexual needs of their wives. In the Prophetic Traditions, we read:

The wife of Uthman ibn Madhoon complained to the Messenger of God that her husband had no need for women (i.e. sexually). During the days he would fast and at night he would pray...The Prophet then told him: "...Certainly, your wife has a right upon you!" (Sahih ibn Hibban, vol.2 , p. 19)

Shaykh al-Islam said:

"It is obligatory for the husband to have intercourse with his wife as much as is needed to satisfy her, so long as this does not exhaust him physically or keep him away from earning a living." (Al-Ikhtiyaaraat al-Fiqhiyyah, p. 246)

And we read further:

"Intercourse is a duty on the man - i.e., the husband should have intercourse with his wife - so long as he has no (valid) excuse." (Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: "al-Mughni", 7 / 30)

So the issue is the same for men and women. A man must fulfill the sexual needs of the wife, and the wife of the husband. The reason that this is required is that marriage is a means of fulfilling sexual desire in a legal manner, and if one party refuses the other, it may be that the other party will seek out to fulfill the sexual desire in a way that leads to hell-fire, i.e. by watching pornography, adultery, etc.

This is the reason why a wife is encouraged to dress up sexily for her husband, and the husband is encouraged to maintain his body for her, etc. And unlike some other religions which advocate celibacy as encouraged, Islam enjoins married couples to have sex, as a means to increase love between them and to quench the sexual thirst in a permissible manner. Therefore, a man is rewarded for having sex with his wife, and she is rewarded for having sex with him, if the intention is to fulfill the sexual urge in the proper way.

It should be noted that we are not saying that a person should have sex when they are not feeling it. Rather, it is as the female scholar Ustadha Zaynab Ansari says:

"This Prophetic narration is an admonition to women who use sex as a weapon against their husbands."

And she says further:

"In terms of how often a couple should have sex, this is a decision that should be reached mutually. Having sex everyday can be exhausting and it is not unreasonable for you to ask your husband for a little respite. ...While recognizing that each spouse has a different libido, couples can successfully negotiate what is an achievable goal for them in terms of sexual activity. If the husband's libido is very high, while the wife's is moderate to low, then that's just a further incentive for the couple to settle on a level of sexual intimacy that is mutually satisfactory."

However, I have not yet answered your question: Is marital rape allowed? The answer is a clear-cut "NO!" The Prophet [s] said:

"If a man calls his wife to his bed (without a valid reason)--and she refuses and causes him to sleep the night in anger--the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim)

The bolded part above is what the Taliban cavemen don't understand. Had it been permissible to rape one's wife, then why would the husband go to sleep in anger? So this is a clear cut case of the Taliban not understanding Shari'ah: they hear that a wife is commanded to have sex with his wife, and then just jump to conclude that they can force themselves on their wives.

In fact, Prophet Muhammad [s] forbade forcing oneself upon the wife:

"You should not fulfill your (sexual) need from your wife like an animal; rather there should be between them [the married couple] foreplay of kissing and (soft) words." (al-Daylami: "Musnad al-Firdaws" , 2 / 55)

And there is another Prophetic narration that I couldn't find right now (but I will look for it) in which the Prophet [s] completely forbade mounting a wife like an animal against her will.

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"It is a depravity in a man to assault his unprepared wife, seeking to satisfy his own lust." (Ihya of Imam al-Ghazali, vol. 2: 49-50; dhaeef but affirmed in meaning)

To conclude, the general rule is that a man must fulfill the sexual needs of his wife, and the wife of the husband. Yet, there is no place for marital rape. If a wife refuses a husband, the most a husband can do is go to sleep angry, but he cannot force himself upon her.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Anyway, I don't know if you saw the thread about the Confederate Flag, I felt like you for a minute because I was the only one against it. Oh well, it was a lively debate and enjoyed some of the educated responses.

Haha, we Muslims joke around how Muslim is the new black. We are going through a lot of the things blacks went through. When I was younger, I used to horribly underestimate the discrimination and obstacles faced by the black community. Being in a similar situation now, I can understand how that must feel.

In fact, the black Muslims are a guide for the "immigrant" Muslims, since the blacks have experience in this field. Chariff (another poster on this forum) says how he has it doubly hard, as being both black and Muslim.

I've recently been reading a Kaballa book and believe it or not, this book cites many references from the Quaran. Don't worry I have no desire to convert to Kaballa but it does have some interesting points akin to Buddhism.

I agree with you that Buddhism and Kaballa are a nice way to live. But I wanted more in a religion. I wanted it to be not just a nice way to live, but an answer to all my questions, an explanation of why I am here, where I'm going after that, and just a complete theology. However, different things appeal to different people.

[BgMc31]

Another question BuffedGuy, the middle east, particularly Iran and Iraq, are the cradle of civilazation, with artifacts and documents dating back older than Islam, Christianity, Judasim, etc. How can you deny the rich history of those ancient civilizations?

[BuffedGuy]

Another question BuffedGuy, the middle east, particularly Iran and Iraq, are the cradle of civilazation, with artifacts and documents dating back older than Islam, Christianity, Judasim, etc. How can you deny the rich history of those ancient civilizations?

Peace be unto you, BgMc31.

Can you please clarify your question? Why you think a Muslim must deny the rich history of ancient civilizations? Perhaps I am not understanding your question.

[BuffedGuy]

Buffed one of the ways the Bible can be proven other than prophecy coming to pass is Bible numerics, ie:numeric values on Greek and Hebrew lettering adding up to significant meanings, eg scriptures concerning satan add up to 666 or 13 ect. Does the Koran have this or something similar?

Peace be unto you, ChicMagnet.

I agree with Derek's post here:

fyi...biblical numerics are garbage.

it's all bullsht marketing so people will buy a book.

biblical numerics are to real scholarship what steroid knock-offs are to real gear.

There have most definitely been books by certain unscrupulous Muslims talking about a numeric code in the Quran. However, the Islamic scholarship rejects such bogus claims. In fact, it has been said that one can--through the use of computers--find (read: generate) numeric codes from any newspaper.

The Quran is a book of spiritual guidance, and the guide to salvation. It is not a science or math book. One-third of the Quran is about the Oneness of God, another third of the Quran is about the stories of the prophets who preached the Oneness of God and the past nations which were sent down this message of Oneness of God, and another third of the Quran is everything else. The beauty of the Quran is in its message: namely in the belief of One God, and being monotheistic in worship of this One God. The Quran preaches pure monotheism. This is the reason a person should convert to Islam, not because of some science trivia supposedly in the Quran, or of a mathematical code. I believe that nowadays people are trying to validate their religious books through science and math, because they view science and math as the absolute truths. Rather, I believe the Quran is at a higher level than science and math, because the Quran is salvation for the soul.

Prophet Muhammad [s] told us how Prophet Moses [as] asked God for something special to set him apart him from the rest of the prophets. So God gave him the words "There is no god except God." Prophet Moses [as] replied back saying that these words were given to all the prophets before him, so give him something special that would make him greater. Again, God gave him the same words: "There is no god except God." Then God informed Prophet Moses [as] that if these words were placed on one side of a scale, and if all the heavens and the earth--and everything in them--were placed on the other side of the scale, then the words "there is no god except God" would be so much heavier than the other side that the heavens and the earth--and all that is in them--would fly off the scale as if they were nothing but a fly. Such is the heaviness and gravity of the words "There is no god except God."

The point is that a person should convert to Islam for this reason, i.e. "There is no god except God", not because of some science trivia or mathematical code. Furthermore, Muslims should call Non-Muslims to these words, not trying to impress them with some supposed science trivia or mathematical code in the Quran.

Prophet Muhammad [s] commanded his disciple who was sent to the people of Yemen (who were Christians):

"You will be going to the People of the Scripture [Christians], so the first thing you should invite them to is the Oneness of God." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol.9, Book 93, #469; Sahih Muslim, Vol.1, p.14, #27)

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.