Eq/deca/var Cycle-just Injected

[100%NATURAL-theGH]

FUCK this... and btw FINA shut me down way harder than DECA ever did.... even in lower dosages.. even with test... anyways 500mg Test E a week it is... I'll start tonight...

[shortie]

your right... your wife and I never had an argument so why should we???

I love it, you too funny! I am a gay single man, wanna chat?

[100%NATURAL-theGH]

I'm a swinger.. not into chatting... but if you don't have plans later....

[shortie]

FUCK this... and btw FINA shut me down way harder than DECA ever did.... even in lower dosages.. even with test... anyways 500mg Test E a week it is... I'll start tonight...

Damnit Natural, don't cave in to peer pressure! Personally I have done some completely fu*ked cycles, and oddly got good results, it's just that even though deca/dbol worked for me doesn't mean it will for everyone, when in fact it shouldn't(btw I do not do cycles anymore w/out test). But if the cycle you are describing works for ya-don't go changing for us.

[shortie]

All this gay talk is fu*kin with me-I' gonna have to go look at some straight porn!

[100%NATURAL-theGH]

I don't know what to do.. is Test going to hurt my joints? I know it decreases your collagen synthesis so I was leaning away from it... I'm not sure anymore.... so many conflicting ideas! maintenance doses of 250mg maybe? or none.. or 1000mg or... shit...

[wolfyEVH]

I don't know what to do.. is Test going to hurt my joints? I know it decreases your collagen synthesis so I was leaning away from it... I'm not sure anymore.... so many conflicting ideas! maintenance doses of 250mg maybe? or none.. or 1000mg or... shit...

so thats why you're leaning away from it???? more research bro. you have deca which will increase the collagen synthesis, even while you're taking testosterone. not to mention the eq you're taking does as well. you do realize testosterone is crucial for the human body, and taking your cycle will rob your body of that testosterone. You're gonna open up doors to lethargy, mood swings, libido issues, etc....not to mention rob yourself of the powerful anabolic benefits of testosterone. this is something many people seem to not realize. everyone always thinks to include test only because it will help keep your dick up.

[shortie]

Very powerful in personal well being. Well said Wolfy.

[JohnnyB]

You're gonna open up doors to lethargy, mood swings, libido issues, etc....

That's a place I don't want to be again, when I first came to these boards, I had low test levels. Talk about mood swings, the low test levels after a cycle, is where the idea of roid rage came from. Then add the elevated estrogen, not good. You always need some test to keep you at least at natural levels or above

JohnnyB

[dragon69]

I have seen in this post several reasons to use test. While these reasons are all OK the biggest point has been missed. (and yes Deca/Fina is what causes Dick issues)

Listen guys, I am in medical practice and I can confirm physiologically that THE BEST reason (which btw I have NOT seen yet mentioned here) to use test with EVERY cycle is;
Testosterone is 100% absolutely necessary to build muscle. Without it there is no new muscle formation. So, any cycle without test is totally CRIPPLED!!!
Enough said.

[100%NATURAL-theGH]

hmm... i have to admit that I agree with everything being said for the most part.. I just want to avoid mood swings.... and I'm sure having low test isn't going to help it... maybe I'll do 500mg/week and leave it there... I only want to do what is best for me! Alright I'll do it.... geez.. all this yelling at me and shit..

[dragon69]

hmm... i have to admit that I agree with everything being said for the most part.. I just want to avoid mood swings.... and I'm sure having low test isn't going to help it... maybe I'll do 500mg/week and leave it there... I only want to do what is best for me! Alright I'll do it.... geez.. all this yelling at me and shit..

if you're having mood swings with test maybe you should get some estrogen controlling compounds like arimidex. This should do the trick for mood.

[Two4the$$]

I have seen in this post several reasons to use test. While these reasons are all OK the biggest point has been missed. (and yes Deca/Fina is what causes Dick issues)

Listen guys, I am in medical practice and I can confirm physiologically that THE BEST reason (which btw I have NOT seen yet mentioned here) to use test with EVERY cycle is;
Testosterone is 100% absolutely necessary to build muscle. Without it there is no new muscle formation. So, any cycle without test is totally CRIPPLED!!!
Enough said.

PLEASE post the study that supports that. Please.

Next... and I'm not saying names... but I have seen the phrase "shut down" used incorrectly about 5+ times so far... vets and mods included.

"Shut down" is NOT an interchangeable phrase of "low libido."

Running a replacement dose of Test at 100mg - 200mg per week will be amble to keep normal sex function... (or at least should be) and should definitely NOT be the culprit of anger or other mood issues. And, as properly mentioned, Estrogen could be.

Good luck, and thanks for being a guinea pig just to let us know how your plan works.

Regards.

[Two4the$$]

The EQ and Var aren't too suppressive, but including Deca strongly compells me to suggest inclussion of at least a small base of test... but you CAN grow without it. You'll just have limited androgens... and thus your drive to succeed, your ability to push hard, and have a functional sex drive will suffer.

[dragon69]

The EQ and Var aren't too suppressive, but including Deca strongly compells me to suggest inclussion of at least a small base of test... but you CAN grow without it. You'll just have limited androgens... and thus your drive to succeed, your ability to push hard, and have a functional sex drive will suffer.

Needing test for growth is just simple physiology. Loads of physiology or strictly endocrine function textbooks will have this information in them.

Test is need to stimulate the myoblasts into producing muscle tissue, you don't get TRUE growth (not just water retention) without myoblast stimulation.

So you say you CAN grow without test. Well, maybe you might see some on-cycle size increase, but without new fibers laid down (by the myoblasts) it will all be lost post cycle. So Test will help keep gains made and will give a more permanent increase in muscle size/density.

[Two4the$$]

Okay, are you talking about the difference between hyperplasia and hypertrophy?

Can you please show me a study on this? I understand that you believe what you're saying, and I don't discredit your belief. I'm simply not willing to replace mine with yours unless there is some supportive information. No dispute, Testosterone clearly works – and I always use it. I just haven't heard anyone stand on the position that no other compound can produce gains unless coupled with Test. For instance, the Germans used OT, often exclusively. Especially for their female svim (sic) team. They were quite emasculated little girls if I recall correctly. So what was that under their skin changing their shape? Are you saying you'll lose that tissue (atrophy I presume you're contending) within a few months or at most a couple of years?

Dragon, before you get offended (which sometimes my cross examinations can be borderline offensive)... I mean no disrespect. I just want you to SUPPORT this statement you're making... in addition to clarifying it.

Kind regards... t

[Two4the$$]

Role of IGF-I and IGF-binding proteins within diaphragm muscle in modulating the effects of nandrolone

In the present study, significant hypertrophy of type IIa and type II x/b (IIx/b > IIa) fibers in the diaphragm was evident in NAN-treated rats. This was associated with increased muscle IGF-I expression in general, whereas immunohistochemical studies tended to localize the enhanced IGF-I expression to those most hypertrophied type II x/b diaphragm fibers. This strongly suggests that the anabolic steroid tended to exert its impact on muscle fiber size, at least in part, due to influences on the IGF system within the muscle. Furthermore, the changes in IGFBP expression highlighted earlier suggest a complex series of changes that result in facilitation of IGF-I actions. This greater IGF-I signaling would thus be expected to contribute to protein anabolism and fiber hypertrophy. It has been proposed that IGF-I may induce muscle fiber hypertrophy through signaling involving the Ca2+-calmodulin-dependent protein phosphatase calcineurin pathways (41). The increased local IGF-I concentration in the muscle may also be accompanied by satellite cell activation to maintain the myonuclear domain size (i.e., volume of myoplasm per myonucleus) of individual muscle fibers. IGF-I has been shown to promote proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells and fusion of new myoblasts to promote hypertrophy (4, 14, 39). The concept is that each myonucleus regulates protein expression within a given myoplasmic volume, so that any increase in muscle fiber size would be required to be supported by new, additional myonuclei, which are provided by muscle stem cells (i.e., satellite cells; see Refs. 4, 39). Furthermore, increased local muscle protein accretion could be augmented by reduced protein degradation mediated by enhanced intramuscular concentrations of IGF-I.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/282/2/E483

That study may not be completely contradictory to what you're saying, but it does reference the affect being caused to some degree by Nandrolone. Thus, you are at least not completely correct in that statement.

Now, if what you're saying is that Testosterone is the MOST affective anabolic compound to activate myoblast mediated affects, well, okay. Prove it. But I really think this is going to the contraversial subject of hypertrophy and hyperplasia. Of course, hyperplasia requires apoptosis to be reversed, whereas hypertrophe simply requires atrophy... and based on what I know ... atrophy would be more susceptible to immediate loss than hyperplasia.

However, it'd still be quite a stretch to say that one compound has an advantage of causing hyperplasia over another.

[oswaldosalcedo]

well shut down means 100% bro....thats what 200mg/week of deca will do, most definitely. you're thinking of different levels of "suppression". fina killed you cause its a nandrolone, just like deca. both of these will cause complete shut down, even in small doses.

I dont understand you wanting to use it but you're not. you trying to tell us you "rage" when you take test?? please bro......test is safe, effective, and only has a 100:100 anabolic/androgenic ratio. I'd be doing at least 300-400mg/week of test, preferably more.

who is her? wolfyEVH

[Two4the$$]

her?

[oswaldosalcedo]

Role of IGF-I and IGF-binding proteins within diaphragm muscle in modulating the effects of nandrolone

In the present study, significant hypertrophy of type IIa and type II x/b (IIx/b > IIa) fibers in the diaphragm was evident in NAN-treated rats. This was associated with increased muscle IGF-I expression in general, whereas immunohistochemical studies tended to localize the enhanced IGF-I expression to those most hypertrophied type II x/b diaphragm fibers. This strongly suggests that the anabolic steroid tended to exert its impact on muscle fiber size, at least in part, due to influences on the IGF system within the muscle. Furthermore, the changes in IGFBP expression highlighted earlier suggest a complex series of changes that result in facilitation of IGF-I actions. This greater IGF-I signaling would thus be expected to contribute to protein anabolism and fiber hypertrophy. It has been proposed that IGF-I may induce muscle fiber hypertrophy through signaling involving the Ca2+-calmodulin-dependent protein phosphatase calcineurin pathways (41). The increased local IGF-I concentration in the muscle may also be accompanied by satellite cell activation to maintain the myonuclear domain size (i.e., volume of myoplasm per myonucleus) of individual muscle fibers. IGF-I has been shown to promote proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells and fusion of new myoblasts to promote hypertrophy (4, 14, 39). The concept is that each myonucleus regulates protein expression within a given myoplasmic volume, so that any increase in muscle fiber size would be required to be supported by new, additional myonuclei, which are provided by muscle stem cells (i.e., satellite cells; see Refs. 4, 39). Furthermore, increased local muscle protein accretion could be augmented by reduced protein degradation mediated by enhanced intramuscular concentrations of IGF-I.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/282/2/E483

That study may not be completely contradictory to what you're saying, but it does reference the affect being caused to some degree by Nandrolone. Thus, you are at least not completely correct in that statement.

Now, if what you're saying is that Testosterone is the MOST affective* anabolic compound to activate myoblast mediated affects, well, okay. Prove it. But I really think this is going to the contraversial subject of hypertrophy and hyperplasia. Of course, hyperplasia requires apoptosis to be reversed, whereas hypertrophe simply requires atrophy... and based on what I know ... atrophy would be more susceptible to immediate loss than hyperplasia.

However, it'd still be quite a stretch to say that one compound has an advantage of causing hyperplasia over another.

*effective.

test stimulates more igf than other aas
but i dissagre with:
Quote dragon69:
"So Test will help keep gains made and will give a more permanent increase in muscle size/density".

from metenolone or nandrolone muscle last more.
but losses come from hpta axis shut off.

anyway your conjecture is interesting.

[stupidhippo]

I have seen in this post several reasons to use test. While these reasons are all OK the biggest point has been missed. (and yes Deca/Fina is what causes Dick issues)

Listen guys, I am in medical practice and I can confirm physiologically that THE BEST reason (which btw I have NOT seen yet mentioned here) to use test with EVERY cycle is;
Testosterone is 100% absolutely necessary to build muscle. Without it there is no new muscle formation. So, any cycle without test is totally CRIPPLED!!!
Enough said.

First of all : all AAS are synthetic compounds that mimic the male sex hormone testosterone. So u can get huge with out test, its just not recomendable for diffrent reasons. You obviously have missed many obvious facts studying ur books. All AAS's mimic test, they all bind to the androgen receptor. The diffrent actions of all compounds is still not all that well known (the mechanisms). Im 3 and a half years away of becoming a doctor so I also spend most of my time studying these things.. 100 % sure here, ur a bit off point!

[Two4the$$]

My response isn't conjecture ... I'm simply trying to find out what HIS view is by suggesting some angles.

My REAL response is ONLY to say that it appears that nandrolone for one (which is the first AAS I even searched for) disputes his claim that "Testosterone is the only AAS which stimulates myoblasts' effects."

[stupidhippo]

besides isnt nandrlone mg/mg basis stronger than test (in anabolic action)

[Two4the$$]

Anabolic:Androgenic score = 125:37

It is (slightly more anabolic that is)... but remember Hippo, its on the Vida score. Meaning the mouse/rat couldn't move its levitar (sp) muscle. Thus, things like aggression (an androgenic expression) aren't being measured psychologically, only physically by the change in size of the prostate gland. So in males who are affected by having their own hormone suppressed and replaced exclusively by one with a lower androgenic component ... well, they might just lack the drive to "get in shape" or the will to "push the weights" hard.

[stupidhippo]

that is true and im an advocate of having test in a cycle BUT my point was to say that dragon was off the mark on that one. no intention to flame but Im sure about that.

[stupidhippo]

he has the whole concept of AAS mixed up IMO and then there was also the mix u with hyperplasia/hypertrophy. besides I for one havent seen any studies that test promotes more hyperplasia than other AAS. Im not saying it isnt so but to say that if test does it and others dont without ay studies to back it up is wrong.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Ummm, eq and deca are actually the same, but one holds water and one doesn't. Structurally they are almost identical.

Structurally they have nothing in common at all. They are basically as far from being identical as possible. One is derived from testosterone, with an added c1-2 double bond between. Deca lacks a carbon atom at the 19th position, as it is derived from 19-Nor-testosterone, and has no such double bond. They each have different esters, also, so not only is their base structure as unlike as possible for two anabolic steroids, their ester is totally different, structurally, as well.

In derivation, alterations, ester, and basically every way we examine the structure of anabolic steroids, their structure is nothing alike.

Even their anabolic/androgenic ratio is different.

They are, structurally or otherwise, nothing alike.

[oswaldosalcedo]

her?

this:

[Two4the$$]

he has the whole concept of AAS mixed up IMO and then there was also the mix u with hyperplasia/hypertrophy. besides I for one havent seen any studies that test promotes more hyperplasia than other AAS. Im not saying it isnt so but to say that if test does it and others dont without ay studies to back it up is wrong.

I was grabbing at straws actually just trying to understand his point of view... But I don't really have any reason to say one would promote hyperplasia over another ... only that I would ASSUME that hyperplasia would last longer- and that maybe was his point.

I'm always open to hearing about things that promote hyperplasia... to my knowledge, the most likely two substances are HGH and IGF-1, no?

[oswaldosalcedo]

My response isn't conjecture ... I'm simply trying to find out what HIS view is by suggesting some angles.

My REAL response is ONLY to say that it appears that nandrolone for one (which is the first AAS I even searched for) disputes his claim that "Testosterone is the only AAS which stimulates myoblasts' effects."

]My response isn't conjecture

that humility !

are absolute facts !.....lol.........

[stupidhippo]

no clue actually.. I am also interested in hearing new stuff. Some people here are really on top of things and do a lot of research. Its always priceless to find this kind of info.

[Property of Steroid.com]

First of all : all AAS are synthetic compounds that mimic the male sex hormone testosterone. So u can get huge with out test, its just not recomendable for diffrent reasons. You obviously have missed many obvious facts studying ur books. All AAS's mimic test, they all bind to the androgen receptor. The diffrent actions of all compounds is still not all that well known (the mechanisms). Im 3 and a half years away of becoming a doctor so I also spend most of my time studying these things.. 100 % sure here, ur a bit off point!

Saying all AAS mimic test is kind of misleading in my opinion....it's really oversimplifying, and really, in many ways they have different effects from testosterone....

In addition, saying they all bind to the androgen receptor is kind of misleading also...we assume they do, in some way, but some bind so poorly that we can't even figure out to what degree they bind...in other words, they exert an anabolic effect, and we assume they bind, but relative to R1881 (used to determine Relative Binding Affinity of various AAS), their binding affinity is too low to even be measured...Anadrol and Orabolin come to mind here...



Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.Related Articles, Links

Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.

Saartok T, Dahlberg E, Gustafsson JA.

It is unclear whether anabolic steroids act on skeletal muscle via the androgen receptor (AR) in this tissue, or whether there is a separate anabolic receptor. When several anabolic steroids were tested as competitors for the binding of [3H]methyltrienolone (MT; 17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-4,9,11-estratrien-3-one) to the AR in rat and rabbit skeletal muscle and rat prostate, respectively, MT itself was the most efficient competitor. 1 alpha-Methyl-5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (1 alpha-methyl-DHT; mesterolone) bound most avidly to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) [relative binding affinity (RBA) about 4 times that of DHT]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids bound strongly to the AR in skeletal muscle and prostate [ RBAs relative to that of MT: MT greater than 19-nortestosterone ( NorT ; nandrolone) greater than methenolone (17 beta-hydroxy-1-methyl-5 alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) greater than testosterone (T) greater than 1 alpha-methyl-DHT]. In other cases, AR binding was weak (RBA values less than 0.05): stanozolol (17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha- androstano [3,2-c]pyrazol-17 beta-ol), methanedienone (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-1,4-androstadien-3-one), and fluoxymesterolone (9 alpha-fluoro-11 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-T). Other compounds had RBAs too low to be determined (e.g. oxymetholone (17 beta-hydroxy-2-hydroxymethylene-17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstan-3-one) and ethylestrenol (17 alpha-ethyl-4- estren -17 beta-ol). The competition pattern was similar in muscle and prostate, except for a higher RBA of DHT in the prostate. The low RBA of DHT in muscle was probably due to the previously reported rapid reduction of its 3-keto function to metabolites, which did not bind to the AR [5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha, 17 beta-diol and its 3 beta-isomer (3 alpha- and 3 beta-adiol, respectively)]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids (only a few synthetic) bound to SHBG (1 alpha-methyl-DHT much greater than DHT greater than T greater than 3 beta-adiol greater than 3 alpha-adiol = 17 alpha-methyl-T greater than methenolone greater than methanedienone greater than stanozolol). The ratio of the RBA in rat muscle to that in the prostate (an estimate of the myotrophic potency of the compounds) was close to unity, varying only between about 0.4 and 1.7 in most cases.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

[stupidhippo]

agreed I was oversimplifying. But thats how they oversimplify it in the sports physiology books I've read and there is some truth to it. I also said that the mechanism on how AAS anabolic efffects are still unknown (yet again u might be better on top of that than I). My point was just to contest what dragon said cause to me it was not logical at all. I lack the knowledge to make more precise estimates anyway..

[Property of Steroid.com]

so thats why you're leaning away from it???? more research bro. you have deca which will increase the collagen synthesis, even while you're taking testosterone.

More research is what I'd say to you as well. Testosterone does not decrease collagen synthesis:

http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...=32&pageID=383

Thats an old myth, started by the eggregiously incorrect "Animal Mass" as far as I can ascertain.

[Two4the$$]

Jeff, we're glad you're enjoying the thread... but you'll need to start a NEW thread for your question(s). This is afterall, "100%Natural's" thread. For all practical purposes - what you're doing is called hijacking.

[Property of Steroid.com]

who is her? wolfyEVH

Tera Patrick, I believe.

[dragon69]

test is specific to myoblasts, particularly with hyperplasia

[Two4the$$]

I KNEW that was the angle you were going at...

Can you please give me more information? Perhaps show a study on its comparative affects against other anabolics, like Nandrolone, Trenbolone, OT, Var etc... Are you taking the position that hyperplasia is more resistant to deteriorating?

Thanks

[oswaldosalcedo]

Tera Patrick, I believe.

wow, i wish to love* her ! forever ....................lol..........

[wolfyEVH]

Tera Patrick, I believe.

Aria Giovanni actually. Tera Patrick is still a hottie in my book however