Mexico launches rockets across US border.

[BuffedGuy]

Just remember to keep it civil boys (so far so good)

Thank you for the reminder. I was too harsh in earlier posts. I will try to be softer.

[Brown Ninja]

so did the mexicans launch rockets at us or not?

[BuffedGuy]

so did the mexicans launch rockets at us or not?

Only after we devastated their country by dropping bombs on them.

[amcon]

Only after we devastated their country by dropping bombs on them.

im confused ... first you said mex bombed us, did they ? or not? and of coarse we will crush them ... if they deserve it for bombing us lets smack them...

[BuffedGuy]

im confused ... first you said mex bombed us, did they ? or not? and of coarse we will crush them ... if they deserve it for bombing us lets smack them...

I have a question for you: you seem to have this simplistic understanding that if they bomb us, we bomb them. Do you realize that when you bomb "them" you are also bombing women and children who had nothing to do with bombing you?

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

I have a question for you: you seem to have this simplistic understanding that if they bomb us, we bomb them. Do you realize that when you bomb "them" you are also bombing women and children who had nothing to do with bombing you?

Sadly, its part of war.


kill or be killed

[amcon]

I have a question for you: you seem to have this simplistic understanding that if they bomb us, we bomb them. Do you realize that when you bomb "them" you are also bombing women and children who had nothing to do with bombing you?

were they thinking that when they bombed us? if so, were they were carefull not to kill kids too then... i will apply my line rule, if not then i will do my best to just kill off all the bad guys...

so let me know if they did, any kids with bombs tied to them selves or women doing the same... or even if the looked before they through rocks and killed little children... let me know, cause me and that other dude are fuling up the 4 wheeler and going after some bad guys (im getting my bandana now!!!)

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

lets keep this going with mexico... as i was saying boom!!! now what?

and now they quit their rocket shooting shenanigans

so did the mexicans launch rockets at us or not?

Yes, its time to man up and head for the border!

[amcon]

and now they quit their rocket shooting shenanigans




Yes, its time to man up and head for the border!

u drive i get the gun!!! can i paint my face like jessy the body ventura preditor ? ? ? please please - if not can i at least wear the bandana thingy that sylvester had in rambo?(would it be to much to have a cooler with protein shakes cooling in the 4 wheeler?)

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

u drive i get the gun!!! can i paint my face like jessy the body ventura preditor ? ? ? please please - if not can i at least wear the bandana thingy that sylvester had in rambo?(would it be to much to have a cooler with protein shakes cooling in the 4 wheeler?)

[amcon]

[amcon]

when the pain of avoidence over weighs the miseries and the demoralization it means time to woop ass and make a change...

i am on no ones side the jews hate (strong word, but it fits) christians so i am not on Israels side bro... just dont get the we are going to keep poking the bees nest till we get stung... listen i am not a palistine or a jew... and i dont like my darn over taxes money going over to help any one... really not being stingy but we need help here in the usa... know what i mean?

most people hate us any ways... but just know i dont like what has happen and what will happen... do you really think Israel is going to stop with gaza??? they are just praying that some one comes in to help paliatine in a military way... so the can take there land as well- and what are we (usa ) to do???? we are broke and almost ready to collapse as a country our selves...

so, turn the tv off, stop watching aljazer, and tell me were to go and find those mexicans!!!???!!! what did they do again?

[BuffedGuy]

i am on no ones side the jews hate (strong word, but it fits) christians

Jews don't hate Christians. In fact, as is well-known, Zionists fancy Zionist Christians. Well, I'm sure *some* Jews hate Christians, but I don't think a stereotype would fit at all here, even if one were to agree to stereotype.

and i dont like my darn over taxes money going over to help any one... really not being stingy but we need help here in the usa... know what i mean?

So then based on this logic, the United States should stop giving billions of dollars per year to Israel.

most people hate us any ways...

Isn't the intelligent thing to do to ask "why?"

and what are we (usa ) to do???? we are broke and almost ready to collapse as a country our selves...

Well then, a good start would be to stop giving Israel billions of dollars per year and use that money to make universal healthcare, free education, etc.

[amcon]

ok so i am going to call the prez right now and tell him i want my money to go to global warming, that is i would like it warmer... in stead of going to Israel

DUDE I DONT MAKE THAT CHOICE!!!!!! NO BODY WHO IS NOT IN THE US GOV DOES... THAT ALL HAPPENS BEHIND OUR BACKS!!! I DONT NOR DOES ANY ONE ELSE WANT THEIR TAXES TO GO TO NOTHING THAT BENIFITS US!!!! PROBLEM IS THE POLITICIANS ARE ALL CROOKED OR HAVE SOME AGENDA

ask why???? we know why... the problem is not why it is what the heck would u like us to do about it??? vote for change???? vote for who???

damn it yes!!! lets stop give any money to any one else - no more money leaving the usa lets act like canada and just play sports on ice(its so freaking cold here even florida could) and we will just ignore every one else - i hope that is what change means - in reguards to the new prez

[BuffedGuy]

ok so i am going to call the prez right now and tell him i want my money to go to global warming, that is i would like it warmer... in stead of going to Israel

DUDE I DONT MAKE THAT CHOICE!!!!!! NO BODY WHO IS NOT IN THE US GOV DOES... THAT ALL HAPPENS BEHIND OUR BACKS!!! I DONT NOR DOES ANY ONE ELSE WANT THEIR TAXES TO GO TO NOTHING THAT BENIFITS US!!!! PROBLEM IS THE POLITICIANS ARE ALL CROOKED OR HAVE SOME AGENDA

ask why???? we know why... the problem is not why it is what the heck would u like us to do about it??? vote for change???? vote for who???

damn it yes!!! lets stop give any money to any one else - no more money leaving the usa lets act like canada and just play sports on ice(its so freaking cold here even florida could) and we will just ignore every one else - i hope that is what change means - in reguards to the new prez

I will give you the advice of Prophet Muhammad [s]: If you see a wrong, try to change it with your own hands. If you cannot change it with your own hands, then try to change it with your words. If you cannot change it with your words, then oppose it in your heart.

[amcon]

5 min and i am going night night... buffed guy you are a little one sided on all of this - and i can apricate your human side... just be of the type that can take a step back and ask the exact same questions and apply them to the other side look back at you...

[BuffedGuy]

5 min and i am going night night... buffed guy you are a little one sided on all of this - and i can apricate your human side... just be of the type that can take a step back and ask the exact same questions and apply them to the other side look back at you...

I don't think I'm one-sided or biased at all. In fact, I *do* ask the exact same questions and apply them back to the other side, which is the reason I spend a good portion of my time refuting Muslim extremists.

I believe in being just and speaking the truth, as my religion commands. That is what I am doing. Everyone keeps on assuming "well there must be an opposite side to the story"...no, there is not, just like there was no justification for what the Nazis did to the Jews, or what the British did to India, or what the white South Africans did to the blacks, etc.

Speaking about South Africa and such, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have publicly condemned Israel as an apartheid state.

Nelson Mandela said:

"The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the yeras, and international consensus was build, which helped to bring an end to theis iniquitous sysstems. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians." Pretoria, December 4, 1997

Desmond Tutu said the same:

South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu has accused Israel of practising apartheid in its policies towards the Palestinians.

source: BBC, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

President Carter condemned Israeli apartheid and also said:

"Israel will never find peace until it is willing to withdraw from its
neighbor's land and to permit the Palestinians to exercise their basic human
and political rights," he said.

Any human being who studies the situation with a clear mind and with neutrality will arrive to the inevitable conclusion: the occupier is *always* necessarily wrong.

I have learned to be just even to my enemies: if Israel has a greatness, then I mention it. For example, I always make sure to remind Muslim extremists that there are tons of Israeli dissenters and protesters. When people criticize America's foreign policy, I also don't forget to mention America's greatnesses. We need to get beyond partisanship. We need to get beyond the "my country right or wrong" mentality. If our group does something wrong, we should be the first to condemn it. Which is why I am the forefront of condemning Al-Qaeda, Muslim extremists, etc. When Hamas targets women and children, I clearly say that this is wrong and to be strongly criticized. This is all about being just and balanced, for God created us to be a balanced nation and enjoined upon us justice even towards our enemies.

[peachfuzz]

HAHAHAHAAH i hadnt read anything after post #24 because my response took me so darn long but this thread turned out to be freakin hilarious! hahahaah

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

HAHAHAHAAH i hadnt read anything after post #24 because my response took me so darn long but this thread turned out to be freakin hilarious! hahahaah

lol, that BuffedGuy I tell ya, he is a character

[peachfuzz]

lol, that BuffedGuy I tell ya, he is a character

I know I know. You ans Mcon are doing nothing but trying to have an intellectual conversation and here he is thinking its all fun and games!

[amcon]

all in a good night of being a aar sight... he he he it is a aar sight isnt it ?? or did i log on to the wrong one again???? darn it let me go check

[BuffedGuy]

On June 14, 2007 Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas announced the dissolution of the former unity government and declared a state of emergency. He dismissed Ismail Haniya as Prime Minister and appointed Salam Fayyad as the new one, giving him the task of building a new government. Nonetheless, Ismail Haniya of the Hamas rejected the decree of Mahmoud Abbas and said his government would remain in office and would claim authority over the entire Palestinian territories.

With Hamas being in control of the Gaza Strip and Fatah in control of the West Bank, there are de facto two Palestinian governments, both considering themselves to be the legitimate Palestinian National Authority government.

Is this Israel's fault that gaza cant get its shit together?

I don't see the relevance of the rivalry of Hamas and PLO to this discussion, so I have nothing to respond to. It is well-known that the two groups hate each other. What is your point?

why not tell Hamas to end suicide bombings and terrorist acts and act like human beings?

Actually, that is exactly what happened. Israel and Hamas signed a ceasefire. Hamas lived up to its end of the bargain and ceased all terrorist acts. Israel violated the ceasefire. I don't know how much clearer I can get.

playing on words does not constitute a valid argument. please lets not use someones choice of words as a tool for furthering our agenda. and as to the settlers.

It's not playing with words at all. Rather, the word describes exactly what they are. I've actually never heard of settlers in this day and age. It really takes us back to the good old colonial era, doesn't it?

it was only AFTER israel pulled out of gaza completely leaving the area soley to the palestenians to administer did rockets begin to reign down on israel.

Israel colonized Gaza from 1967-2005. Didn't you just say earlier that Israel occupied Gaza *because* of rockets? But now you are saying that the rocket attacks only happened *after* the occupation ended. So then why did Israel occupy Gaza for 35+ years? Uh oh, looks like the web of lies is collapsing.

they are angry because Israel will not let then go into an area that they are targetting?

So earlier you used the Red Cross as a proof for the benevolence of Israel. Now when I show you that the Red Cross lashed out at Israel, suddenly there is another excuse? The Red Cross is known for its neutrality, and they have condemned Israel. So I think the matter is clear.

why they are using women and children as shields.

Israel routinely bombs the houses of Hamas members. In one incident, they bombed a Hamas member's house, and in that house lived his four wives, and 6 children. All in all, fifteen civilians were killed because they wanted to kill that one Hamas member. Now do you equate living in a house as "using women and children as shields?"

If a Hamas member bombed the Israeli military leader's house, and killed his four kids in the process, then don't you think you'd be up in arms about what those "sons of b****es" did?

So why is it ok for Israel to bomb and kill civilians and not Hamas?

You say that it is ok to target Hamas leaders...ok, every single Israeli male is bound to join the IDF, which originated from a terrorist organization, and continues to kill women and children to this day. So if it's ok to target the house of Hamas members, then is it ok for Hamas to target the houses of every single male living in Israel, since after all, they are all bound to serve in the IDF?

Your description of "using human shields" is the exact same as Usama bin Ladin and the other Muslim extremists, whom I debate all the time. They give the same loose definitions of "human shields" as you do. Suddenly, almost any human becomes a shield, by your definitions. It a truism that extremists of all religions and peoples have similar ideologies. Talking to you is just like debating with Muslim extremists...I see you using all the same arguments they use, and to refute you, I simply use the same arguments I use to refute them.

imagine this: a hamas "soldier" is being sperd one day because he hides like a rat with his big family. next day an israely kid dies from a missle he shot!!

See what I said above: IDF soldiers (all Israeli males must serve) hide like "rats" with their families. Sorry to inform you of this, but generally most human beings live with their families. There is nothing deceitful about that. It's not hiding. It's called living. Just like you live with your family, and I live with mine, and George Bush lives with his, and the Israeli prime minister lives with his. Everyone lives with their family, so by this definition, all of them are ok to target. Wonderful definition of "human shields"--exact same as Al-Qaeda. Bravo.

Hamas is explicit about desiring Israeli counterattacks,

Huh? Then why did they sign a ceasefire and abide by it? You really just make up stuff.

because while Hamas aims to kill Israeli civilians, they know Israel tries very hard not to kill Palestinian civilians.

You lie a lot. In fact, the Hamas leader specifically said:

"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians." (Ha'reetz; May 25th, 2003)

So contrary to what you say, Hamas does not "know" that Israel tries hard to avoid civilians. Rather, what Hamas thinks is what most other people know: Israel has no regard for civilians.

But every Palestinian death at the hands of Israel is seen as a propaganda victory for Hamas -

Again, this is as offensive as saying "the Jews in concentration camps loved to see Jews gassed, so that they can use it as propaganda against Nazi Germany."

which is why they place their munitions and terrorists in mosques, hospitals and homes crowded with children.

This is a typical tactic of people who have no regard for human life: any building they bomb, they claim "oh there were weapons stashed there." Maybe there were weapons stashed in the World Trade Center, which is why Bin Ladin took it out. So tell me: Israel knowingly bombed a UN school for children, as well as a clearly marked UN convoy. Why did it do that?

Hamas representative Fathi Hamad stated it explicitly: "For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."

And I've already quoted even worse quotes from the Israelis. But because you lack balance, you are unable to see that. We have quotes from Ariel Sharon--the former prime minister--where he says that he will kill every single Palestinian child ever born.

It's impossible for Israel to hit back at Hamas without harming and killing innocent civilians. As Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has pointed out, by aiming at Israeli civilians and using Palestinian civilians as human shields, Hamas is committing a double war crime.

Absurd. And again, the same logic can be said for Hamas: it is impossible for Hamas to target IDF soldiers (all Israeli men) because they "hide" in their homes. See my argument above.

But you will wait in vain for an international outcry.

And you will create one.

Palestine does not exist? Google It.

There is no sovereign state of Palestine.

actually it is Hamas with irans backing that does not recognize Israels right to exist.

You really have no logical abilities. Yes, I know that Hamas doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist. I just stated that. Why on earth are you restating that with the word "actually"? I just told you that this is countered by the fact that the Likud party (whom you just quoted as a proof) rejects the right of a Palestinian state to exist. So I'll try this again, since you lack comprehension skills: why are you a hypocrite and condemn Hamas but not Likud for the same act? What is up with this bigotry and double-standard? I know that Israel is an apartheid state, but we don't live there; we have the same rules for everyone.

so let me get this straight...after the cease fire rockets were still fired into israel (hamas related or not) israel disregarded this,

Let me break this down for you: Israel invaded Gaza, stating that the reason they did this was because Hamas broke the ceasefire and launched rockets. You yourself said this in this very thread. Yet, Israel was proven to have lied about this, and in reality Israel was the one that broke the ceasefire.

after discovering tunnels dug by Hamas to abduct more israeli soldiers, Israel acted and killed seven terrorist in gaza just inside the border and you are gonna blame Israel for breaking the cease fire?

See how much of a liar you are, just like the Israelis? You claimed in this very thread that the reason Israel attacked was because of Hamas rockets. This was stated by the Israelis themselves. But now--when the international community calls Israel out on this--suddenly they change their story. Do you know what this is called? It's called lying. The reason for invading was invented afterward retrospectively, evidenced by the fact that the reason given first was Hamas rockets. As for Hamas planning on kidnapping Israelis, there is no proof for this at all. Rather, it makes zero logical sense, because Hamas lived up to the ceasefire by not launching rockets. In other words, they wanted the ceasefire, otherwise logically they would have launched rockets. If they kidnapped Israelis, then that would've broken the ceasefire, so if they had wanted to do that, they could just have launched rockets to begin with.

Again, it's just an invented excuse, just like America had to invent excuses to invade Iraq. All occupiers are the same.

[amcon]

peachfuz - this 4 wheeler is killing my ass, and all we have found out is that they arnt throwing rockets they are throwing tocos (they are good tooo ummm) but, my question is im getting tired should we make camp here or just call it a night and go home? what do you think... and btw if we are staying here at the border did you bring a tent? and one more thing make sure dsm is not around he scares me, i dont want him in the tent pulling any funny stuff... (im too funny)

[peachfuzz]

peachfuz - this 4 wheeler is killing my ass and all we have found out is they arnt throwing rockest they are throwing tocos(they are good tooo ummm) but, my question is im getting tired should we make camp here or just call it a night and go home? what do you think... and btw if we are staying here at the border did you bring a tent? and one more thing make sure dsm is not around he scares me, i dont want him in the tent pull any funny stuff... (im too funny)

sit on the seat and not the end of the gun and it wont hurt so much

i say we cross the border, grab some cervasas, load up on some gear and then call it a night.

[amcon]

sweet!!! and big were not fishing just stating the facts... great i think tonight i acutally might just have a cold one... (did any one bring sticks for smore's?) maybe we can get some clomid and bring some back ????

night!

[gst528i]

HERE IS THE DEAL.
This is an endless circle. Both the isrealis and the people of gaza are wrong and right at the same time. If that makes any sense i don;t know.
What i mean is, i believe that israelis have a right to call their home. I also think that while the Palestinians had their land given away which is wrong i believe they should also sympathize with the people who were almost wiped of the face of the earth.
But at the same time isrealis should treat the people that already lived there with respect and have some kind of compensation. Maybe economic help and not take any more land.
The arabs should welcome them since the muslim culture is suppose to be one that is of peace and equality regardless of color ( thanks to buffedguy).

Just my opnion course this will never happen coz humans are HELL BENT ON DESTROYING EACH OTHER AND everything. we are A FKUCING VIRUS.

[BuffedGuy]

HERE IS THE DEAL.
This is an endless circle. Both the isrealis and the people of gaza are wrong and right at the same time. If that makes any sense i don;t know.
What i mean is, i believe that israelis have a right to call their home. I also think that while the Palestinians had their land given away which is wrong i believe they should also sympathize with the people who were almost wiped of the face of the earth.
But at the same time isrealis should treat the people that already lived there with respect and have some kind of compensation. Maybe economic help and not take any more land.
The arabs should welcome them since the muslim culture is suppose to be one that is of peace and equality regardless of color ( thanks to buffedguy).

Just my opnion course this will never happen coz humans are HELL BENT ON DESTROYING EACH OTHER AND everything. we are A FKUCING VIRUS.

My dear colleague, you are not understanding the issue: even Hamas has agreed to ceasefire for over a 100+ years. Yes, we Muslims (including Hamas and all other Muslims) believe that the land is ours and stolen, but the Muslims have agreed to conceding *half* of the land to Israel. But it is Israel that is not even willing to go back to the 1947 borders, or even the 1967 ones! It is *all* one-sided.

All this hullabaloo of Hamas not recognizing Israel is just sensationalism. They don't recognize Israel because of a principle, which is that the land was stolen and therefore the state is usurped land. But they are willing to allow Israel to exist for over 100+ years. They believe--as I do--that eventually Prophet Jesus [as] will return and liberate the land, so *that* is why they cannot recognize Israel, because it would call into question Prophet Jesus's right to liberate that land. Just like the Free French would never concede defeat, so that when the Allies landed in Paris, they would still have a right to the land.

Meanwhile, Israel has not allowed a Palestinian state, and will agree neither to the 1947 or 1967 borders. It is simple:

Let me give you an analogy: a man breaks into your home and takes it over. Now, technically it is YOUR home rightfully. But you know that he is too strong to take over, so you finally agree to split YOUR house into two. You will share YOUR house with him half-and-half. So even though he has NO right to your house, you still concede half of it. This is what the Palestinians are doing: they are saying--including Hamas--yes, you have stolen ALL our land, but we are willing to split it 50-50.

But Israel is now saying "NO!" You can't even have half of it. And today, the Palestinians have zero percent of the land. So it is as if the man broke into your home, took it all over, and then you guys agreed on splitting it 50-50, but he broke his word and took over the other 50% too.

This is a very logical sequence of events. It is a myth to think that the situation is too complex to understand. The oppressor always wants people to think that, so that no blame can be assigned. The OCCUPIER is always necessarily wrong.

[BuffedGuy]

humans are HELL BENT ON DESTROYING EACH OTHER AND everything. we are A FKUCING VIRUS.

People need to understand this: Hamas has agreed to sign a 100+ year ceasefire. They are NOT hellbent on destroying Israel. Yes, they have a bunch of statements in which they say similar wording, but they said this BECAUSE Israel was not recognizing a Palestinian state. If Israel did, Hamas would agree to this ceasefire. It is not about endlessly killing each other: it is about securing life, liberty, and happiness.

[Reed]

The more and more I think of it the more I realize that the ISSUES in the Middle East will probably destroy Earth.

[BuffedGuy]

Deleted............

[Reed]

It is quite crazy that sets of bed time stories, symbols, beliefs, and practices (religion) that have no solid foundation in scientific fact drive everyone insane and cause so much death, pain, ill will toward one another, and this thread continues to show us it is true. Christian, Jews, Muslims, etc.

People are set in there ways that they will kill themselves and others in order to prove their belief in some book written loooong ago. And how we relate to God as human-like bewilders me. All our tiny little brains can't think of a supreme being any other way than like ourselves. Maybe one day we will all come to our senses and realize that all the stuff in the different books is WRONG as they were written in a time before modern science was available. And after generations and generations of parents and superiors pounding it into our head we believed things that are no different than believing a story like Jack in the Bean Stalk. And look where it as took us. Our beliefs in religion have destroyed, wasted, and killed countless lives in just a short period of human existence on Earth. And for what b/c some man in a fancy robe with head gear tells you this is fact and if don't do it you will burn in a fire of pain for all eternity??? One of the definitions of insanity is to continually repeat actions with the same consequences. Well it has happened and continues to happen for 1,000 of years all b/c of these bed time stories, symbols, beliefs, and practices. And just when we thought we were the most intelligent animals on the planet???

Maybe its time we all realize that religion isn't working and find a new way. No that couldn't happen, people would have a mental break down and would have to put their egos aside and actually realize where they were wrong.

[BuffedGuy]

It is quite crazy that sets of bed time stories, symbols, beliefs, and practices (religion) that have no solid foundation in scientific fact drive everyone insane and cause so much death, pain, ill will toward one another, and this thread continues to show us it is true. Christian, Jews, Muslims, etc.

People are set in there ways that they will kill themselves and others in order to prove their belief in some book written loooong ago. And how we relate to God as human-like bewilders me. All our tiny little brains can't think of a supreme being any other way than like ourselves. Maybe one day we will all come to our senses and realize that all the stuff in the different books is WRONG as they were written in a time before modern science was available. And after generations and generations of parents and superiors pounding it into our head we believed things that are no different than believing a story like Jack in the Bean Stalk. And look where it as took us. Our beliefs in religion have destroyed, wasted, and killed countless lives in just a short period of human existence on Earth. And for what b/c some man in a fancy robe with head gear tells you this is fact and if don't do it you will burn in a fire of pain for all eternity??? One of the definitions of insanity is to continually repeat actions with the same consequences. Well it has happened and continues to happen for 1,000 of years all b/c of these bed time stories, symbols, beliefs, and practices. And just when we thought we were the most intelligent animals on the planet???

Maybe its time we all realize that religion isn't working and find a new way. No that couldn't happen, people would have a mental break down and would have to put their egos aside and actually realize where they were wrong.

The Israeli argument is the one that rests on a religious argument (i.e. we were given the land to us by God in the Hebrew Bible), whereas the Palestinian argument is simply based on international law (i.e. we were there first, you invaded us).

These two issues are the crux of the matter. The PLO which was in power in Palestine for the last 50 years before Hamas came into power was a *secular* organization. Whilst Hamas calls towards a religious state, the PLO has always called for a secular one. Yes, by their faith the PLO may be Muslims (actually many of them are Christians too), but their reason for liberating Palestine has nothing to do with religion. In fact, most of them were and are non-practicing Muslims, who neither pray the required prayers nor observe the prohibitions against alcohol, etc. As for Hamas, their religious argument coincides with international law: we were invaded, so we must fight back, which is a Quranic belief. Yes, Hamas went to excess and extremes by resorting to terrorist tactics, but again, Hamas just recently came to power. So for 50 years, the issue was between a religious belief (Zionism) and a political belief (PLO).

Interestingly enough though, even the founders of Zionism were secularists who then used a religious belief to fulfill and rally people to their cause. What I am trying to say is that it is not correct to say that all of this is over religion. Even if people abandoned religion, don't you think they'd fight back when invaded and occupied? Even if people abandoned religion, don't you think there would still be greedy and corrupt people who would want to steal land and occupy peoples? Even if people abandoned religion, there would still be criminal elements that resort to extremist tactics to get their ends.

Religion is not the cause. It is merely the currency.

[Reed]

The Israeli argument is the one that rests on a religious argument (i.e. we were given the land to us by God in the Hebrew Bible), whereas the Palestinian argument is simply based on international law (i.e. we were there first, you invaded us).

These two issues are the crux of the matter. The PLO which was in power in Palestine for the last 50 years before Hamas came into power was a *secular* organization. Whilst Hamas calls towards a religious state, the PLO has always called for a secular one. Yes, by their faith the PLO may be Muslims (actually many of them are Christians too), but their reason for liberating Palestine has nothing to do with religion. In fact, most of them were and are non-practicing Muslims, who neither pray the required prayers nor observe the prohibitions against alcohol, etc. As for Hamas, their religious argument coincides with international law: we were invaded, so we must fight back, which is a Quranic belief. Yes, Hamas went to excess and extremes by resorting to terrorist tactics, but again, Hamas just recently came to power. So for 50 years, the issue was between a religious belief (Zionism) and a political belief (PLO).

Interestingly enough though, even the founders of Zionism were secularists who then used a religious belief to fulfill and rally people to their cause. What I am trying to say is that it is not correct to say that all of this is over religion. Even if people abandoned religion, don't you think they'd fight back when invaded and occupied? Even if people abandoned religion, don't you think there would still be greedy and corrupt people who would want to steal land and occupy peoples? Even if people abandoned religion, there would still be criminal elements that resort to extremist tactics to get their ends.

Religion is not the cause. It is merely the currency.

When did I say it was. Just was making a simple statement. Thats all. But at the same time I would say it is a MAJOR cause to conflicts in the Middle east and the reason the West is at war w/ terrorism, the jihad. There are no sure fire ways to solve it but as you just stated numerous times that group of people does this b/c of this belief right here. All these religions folks on both sides even break up amongst them selves due to a belief on a particular subject. Its silliness and insanity wrapped up with no facts. I mean you believe in Jesus right. Well to add more fuel to the fire there is mounting historical and no direct archaeological evidence of such a popular man that the Bible portrays him to be. So many errors in Roman law in the christian bible, no writings by such a great man, no one even wrote about him while he was alive and no record of his sentenced by Pilate. I could go on but if you do researched you gotta shift through the biased crap. Now wouldn't that fukk the world up if their Messiah or great prophet or whatever was really just Jack in the Bean Stalk...

Any way just something for you to continue to chew on as I'm going to bed and really don't care to discuss with you anymore as I see you are set in your ways of Palestine is good and Israel is evil. But I will add that peachfuzz is quite right. No need to come on to a steroid forum to argue politics and such. Its almost as irrational as well....... nm. We have enough of these idiots BTW. Sorry not calling you one. Just wish AR was more like it use to be and instead of discussing politics and goofing off like we do around here, we talk about bodybuilding and what this site was designed for. Now I gotta shift through all the old threads from years ago of all the old Vets and gurus that were banned or no longer come around in order to further my knowledge on why I come to steroid.com. But I do hope everything works out for you and your people and one day we can all get along and not argue over the same thing that has been done over thousands of years.

Reed

[peachfuzz]

Buffed Guy what are you trying to accomplish here. Your last post in response to mine was so full of crap i dont even know where to start. you say i said things which i didnt. you play on words. you play semantics. you ignore points you dont want to address and again you portray your OPINION as fact. i dont know if you dont think people are gonna go back and read or verify what you say so matter of factly, but im not fooled. I am a liar and comparing me to a racist? you are so self righteous its not even funny.

BTW my first question is not rhetorical. It is clear you have a huge agenda. so tell me. what is it. On second thought, dont. I dont want to hear it.

just keep in mind this is a steroid board. not a political forum. im sure since you are the authority on the Israel-Hamas conflict. there are others who can use your enlightenment.

[BuffedGuy]

Buffed Guy what are you trying to accomplish here. Your last post in response to mine was so full of crap i dont even know where to start. you say i said things which i didnt. you play on words. you play semantics. you ignore points you dont want to address and again you portray your OPINION as fact. i dont know if you dont think people are gonna go back and read or verify what you say so matter of factly, but im not fooled. I am a liar and comparing me to a racist? you are so self righteous its not even funny.

BTW my first question is not rhetorical. It is clear you have a huge agenda. so tell me. what is it. On second thought, dont. I dont want to hear it.

just keep in mind this is a steroid board. not a political forum. im sure since you are the authority on the Israel-Hamas conflict. there are others who can use your enlightenment.

You have not raised a single argument in this post (other than personal attacks), so I guess I will just leave it at that.

[peachfuzz]

Thank you.

[PT]

this is the lounge and everyone is allowed to discuss whatever they want here within the board rules but lets keep this clean. anytime the discussion concerns religion tempers will always flare but lets remember that everyone here is entitled to there own opinion. if anyone dosnt like this topic and feel they might get angry and say something regretable or something that may have consequences then i ask you to either stay out of this thread or do not post in it. thank you

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, PT.

In the Name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

this is the lounge and everyone is allowed to discuss whatever they want here within the board rules but lets keep this clean. anytime the discussion concerns religion tempers will always flare but lets remember that everyone here is entitled to there own opinion. if anyone dosnt like this topic and feel they might get angry and say something regretable or something that may have consequences then i ask you to either stay out of this thread or do not post in it. thank you

You are asbolutely right, and thank you again for the reminder. From now on, I will begin with saying "peace" and invoking the Name of God. I think maybe some people wonder why I do that. The reason is that it was the advice given to me by an Islamic Aalim (clergyman) to always begin posts by sending peace and invoking the Name of God, especially posts that are "refutations" of someone else's posts. This is according to the Islamic ettiquette. The reason for doing this, he said, was that when you first click "reply" your blood will be boiling and you will reply out of anger. But when you start a post by sending peace and invoking God's Name, then it will purify your intention and soften your response. How can you send peace on someone and at the same time attack him harshly?

So anyways, from now on I will go back to addressing people with peace, and hopefully I will then be softer.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[thegodfather]

The pervasive ignornance and naiveity permeating throughout this entire thread is disgusting. I'm not hearing any novel arguments, only the typical Americanized rhetoric we have all been conditioned to regurgitate over and over again.

"If you don't agree with my foriegn policy, you are unpatriotic."

Apply the above quotation to those who think you are an "idiot" if you advocate for the Palestinian people (not Hamas). We are not talking about a military organization, but rather 1.5 million innocent civilians who would like nothing more than to go about their daily lives in peace. Yet many of you speak of every last man, woman, and child in Palestine as if they are all pitching in to fire Qassam rockets into Israel which inflict very little damage and RARELY kill a single person. You people regurgitate the nonsense that you hear on CNN about a Qassam rocket hitting a school, and then neglect to mention that the school had long been unoccupied. It is not to say the rocket fire is justified or any less dangerous, but it is worth pointing out those IMPORTANT DETAILS when you are using that specific attack as a means to sensationalise the issue to strengthen your pathetically weak arguments for killing civilians.

It's really sad if you take a step back and detach yourself from the entire argument. Jewish friends of mine are so heavily brainwashed I have spoken with a few in the last couple of days who have said things like "I hate every single Muslim and hope the IDF kills every single one of them." Likewise, I'm sure many Muslim peoples in the region say the same thing about Israeli's. It is a cycle of hate now to the point where a new generation of people hate one another, and fight one another, and quite honestly know very little about the reason that they fight each other. All they know is that they were TAUGHT to hate the other person and that killing "THOSE" people is less severe than killing 'normal' people.

I'm not going to engage the actual issues of this thread as far as the Palestinian/Israeli argument. Many of you already know where I stand on issues like this one. Sovereign bodies have the right to be autonomous from outside influences, and this includes invasion. They have the right to put off invaders by any means necessary.

Let me put this into our typical American terms so we can all understand. Since an invasion occured in 1946, the various organizations of the Palestinian people have been trying to resist that invasion. So whenever a Qassam rocket kills civilians in Israel, its not a terrorist attack, the civilians killed are "collateral damage" of wartime. I mean, that is afterall what WE call the 1 million Iraqi civilians that we killed while invading the sovereign state of Iraq, isn't it? I dont see why we should apply such a hypocritical double standard to other forces. Hamas is not a terror organization (Terrorism by the way, is a TACTIC of war, it is NOT a person, place, or thing).

To break this down on an even more basic level. Consider this. You are in your house right now (you will be Palestine), and a two men break into your home and try to take up camp in your living room. You try to kick them out by force, and in turn they respond with force against you, overpowering you. When the police come to investigate, the two burgulars respond to the officer saying "We were just DEFENDING ourselves." What I mean to point out is, that when you break into a persons home, under the law you lose all rights to a self defense argument. I see the situation no differently here, to call the IDF the Israeli DEFENSE Force is the biggest example of an oxymoron that I have ever seen in my life.

[Matt]

Buffed Guy, i agree with everything you say, ive watched events over there for a number of years. Most people here think Hamas fire rockets into israel because they are evil terrorists who have nothing better to do. How wrong they are, they fire rockets because thats all they can do. They live in absolute poverty, no fresh water, no fresh food, under curfew for sometimes weeks. Their land is taken away from them, their borbers are always locked down, they have no freedom. The red cross and UN repoorted only last year, that more and more children were suffering from bone disease and stunted growth due to the food shortages. I watched the Hamas leader yesterday, when asked what he wanted this was his reply. We want our land back, we want our borders opened so that we can feed our people, we want our freedom, we want our own free independent State, we want to live and coexist as equals with israel and not as their prisoners. Is this so to much to ask??

This is a steroid board, does that mean we are not allowed to discuss anything else? Is this not the lounge? where we can talk about anything we want? Have the rules changed? Is it bbing, steroids and nothing else? I need to check but im sure it wasnt BuffedGuy that started this thread.