Comparison between 100mg test Sub-Q and IM (with labwork)

[booku]

quad injections might not have been sub-Q even with 20% BF, average skin thickness is 2 mm plus the sub-Q thigh layer is on average 10 mm in regular UNTRAINED people ie regular bodyfat levels like yourself. 5/8" needle is 15.875 mm. just a thought, not entirely sure and also depends on your pinching and if you stuck the needle all the way in?

[bigboy67]

The point I am making is if you are taking HCG and switch from IM to SQ, your test levels could stay the same but the testosterone is not being absorbed and the increase would be due solely to HCG + AI.

HCG mono can raise your test levels significantly if you are secondary.

The ideal experiment scenario would be to just take testosterone IM and repeat SQ.

If you are currently taking HCG + AI and doing SQ injections, dropping HCG and the AI will let you know how much test you are absorbing from the test alone.

This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg/ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases.

And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!

I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info

[GFA]

This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg/ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases.

And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!

I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info

It makes complete sense that when you do a controlled study, you have a clear control point. By introducing variables like an AI or HCG, that clouds the results.

Ill give you an example.


You can take 250iu HCG 3x a week and achieve a 700+ total test. (assuming the user is secondary and receptive to HCG)
You can take 100mg Test 1x a week and achieve a 700+ total test.
You can take an AI and raise your test a few hundred points.

Taking them at the same time will not bring you to 1600+ total test. Its not cumulative.

If you were going to do a scientific study of the efficacy of anything, you dont have multiple things you test at the same time otherwise it would be difficult to determine if it actually works.

Regardless, if you want to see how your body responds and have an exact picture of IM vs SQ, you should only use Test during the trial period.

100mg test SQ vs 100mg test IM

My body did not respond to SQ in the belly region. I dropped from almost 800 total test (IM 100mg test week x1) to 300 (SQ 100mg test week x1).
Injection was on Sunday, labs done on wednesday. The only variable was injection method (SQ vs IM).

Here is the real question, where is the Test I injected? Is it just sitting in some pool of fat waiting to be released one day or did my body somehow metabolize it.

I have since switched back to IM and just had new BW done this week. Ill post up my results as soon as I have them.

I dont recall telling people that taking test will make them sterile but at 22, why risk it if you want to have kids one today? I would explore other options like HCG which doesn't shut down your HPTA and encourages natural testosterone production assuming the person is secondary.

I am considering adding HCG back to my protocol but I want to see where my next lab brings me, then I will adjust accordingly. I was struggling for awhile to get my hemoglobin under control (was as high as 20!) but now its down in the 13s after my last double red donation.

PS - I really wished SQ worked because IM can be painful at times. I did my last injection in the delt and it wasnt so bad. Sore for a few days but went in easy.

The problem I have is people are so quick to switch to a method and repeat it as the TRT bible without even trying it to see how it impacts their body or says, wow this is amazing but at the same time they take 10 other ancillaries. Is SQ still effective? How can you tell? Maybe its one of the 10 other drugs you are taking.

The only way to know for sure is to do a controlled study on yourself. Otherwise you could be injecting your test and achieve the same results as pouring it into the drain.

PSS - If you look at most of the people that have tried both in this thread, their results have not been very positive. I might try SQ again in the thigh (less fat) and post up a comparison. For now I just want to be normal.

[Ratt]

Hey GFA,

My results trying SQ injections are much the same as yours. I had been injecting 120mg test cyp IM weekly for the previous 3 years and wanted to try SQ because IM was getting old. I am on a test cyp only protocol and my levels on weekly IM were normally around 750-900. I started doing 50mg e/3.5d SQ back in early Nov and had blood work done mid Dec and found that my levels were 450.
I have been dealing with nipple pain and sensitivity since starting SQ. My wife noticed last night that my left nipple had a rough feel to it similar to a scab. I have had to take L-dex since starting SQ which helps, but I think I will be going back to IM injections starting this week.
Great post, it is good to know that someone else is having issues with SQ injections.

[kelkel]

GFA I understand your point. Basically to remove all variables before testing, which in essence is probably the best move for this experiment. I just think you would have seen a difference either way.

Still think this thread is excellent GFA! Nice work.

[GFA]

GFA I understand your point. Basically to remove all variables before testing, which in essence is probably the best move for this experiment. I just think you would have seen a difference either way.

Still think this thread is excellent GFA! Nice work.

Thanks. Best way to test it would be to keep the frequency and dosage the same. Only change the delivery method. No HCG, no AI. At least 6 weeks each way.

So far from the members reported, SQ has decreased the absorption rate regardless of frequency of injections.


@booku, 100mg a week IM would get most people around 700-900 ng/dL total test. Im curious to see what your results are. If its under 500, I would try IM and test again.

[booku]

yea that is what I am thinking. If I do end up trying IM, you think I should run IM twice/week and once/week?

for example:
1st 6 weeks: sub-Q twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM once/week

don't really think IM twice/week is really sustainable for 50+ years but would be nice to know the full picture so I could have it as a tool...

[GFA]

yea that is what I am thinking. If I do end up trying IM, you think I should run IM twice/week and once/week?

for example:
1st 6 weeks: sub-Q twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM once/week

don't really think IM twice/week is really sustainable for 50+ years but would be nice to know the full picture so I could have it as a tool...

Dont know what the right answer would be. I hate injecting IM so I keep it to 1x a week but lower dose, more frequent injections would keep your levels more stable.

I want to experiment with additional injection sites like the delts and glutes. I know people also inject into the calves and biceps. Not sure I would try those areas.

At your age personally I wouldn't do test injections. I would try HPTA restart first.

[booku]

Dont know what the right answer would be. I hate injecting IM so I keep it to 1x a week but lower dose, more frequent injections would keep your levels more stable.

I want to experiment with additional injection sites like the delts and glutes. I know people also inject into the calves and biceps. Not sure I would try those areas.

At your age personally I wouldn't do test injections. I would try HPTA restart first.

which needle did you use for IM into the thigh? Could you go into detail on why IM was a big hassle? any tips etc?

Yes i agree, it was a tough decision to start trt, but i had been feeling so miserable for so long that I jumped at the chance when my endo prescribed 100 mg/week and allowing me to self inj ect (I have heard that some docs refuse to do these two measures). That coupled with the fact that i'm big into bodybuilding as a hobby I went with it. Yea a restart with fertility med5 might have raised it, but I can achieve more optimal levels with TRT once I'm dialed in, and then have the option of blasting etc, and I ruled out the pituitary tumor, testicular pathologies, thyroid issues, etc

have a semen analysis monday. will be very curious about that, think I will be fertile?

[GFA]

GFA - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

Allaaro - do you have total test levels as well?
Baseline ?
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)


Thoughts - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data. More data required to make a generalized statement. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

[Allaaro]

Good work GFA to keep it all organized. I added my baseline and total test in post 32 if you wanted to add it.

[Ratt]

GFA,

My baseline before trt was 256 ng/dL (Total test).
I'm going to go back to IM at 100mg/week and get my blood checked to see where I'm at compared to the same amount injected SQ.

Cheers

[rollingthunder]

i had a similar experience, and have previously posted about it. my free testosterone dropped from 24 using an IM protocol (100mg 1xwk) to 9 using a subQ protocol (50mg 2xwk). i have since gone back to IM and will be re-testing in a couple weeks.

[GFA]

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

Allaaro
Baseline 19.1 (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (free test) 100mg (1x100)
Summary - No ranges so unable to make accurate statement but from numbers, there was a huge drop in test switching to SQ.

Thoughts - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data regardless of frequency or dosage. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

I have yet to see one positive lab result from the community using a controlled study with SQ injections. It does appear SQ injections raise your testosterone levels but a large amount of the testosterone injection is metabolized/discarded via unknown means.

Cliffs - SQ doesn't work reliably.

[FRDave]

Do you think maybe we just need to wait a bit longer before getting blood work to let it build up, say 8-10 weeks vs the normal 6 weeks?

I currently inject 50mg twice weekly via the subQ method but just started my 3rd week and are new to TRT so I have no experience with the IM technique. Maybe I should hold off on getting blood work till like week 8 or 10 to give it some time?

On another note, I did start HCG at 500IU twice per week exactly 1 month prior to starting test so I will be able to make a fair comparison on my test levels with and without HCG...


Dave

[GFA]

Do you think maybe we just need to wait a bit longer before getting blood work to let it build up, say 8-10 weeks vs the normal 6 weeks?

I currently inject 50mg twice weekly via the subQ method but just started my 3rd week and are new to TRT so I have no experience with the IM technique. Maybe I should hold off on getting blood work till like week 8 or 10 to give it some time?

On another note, I did start HCG at 500IU twice per week exactly 1 month prior to starting test so I will be able to make a fair comparison on my test levels with and without HCG...


Dave

Give it a shot at 8-10 weeks and report back your results. I would stop the HCG at least 4 weeks before the labs though because it will skew the results.

[booku]

I know Dr. Crisler mentioned that he and his patients have had great success with sub-Q, based on the blood labs of many patients.

But do you know if any of those patients were on sub-Q test ONLY and not on things like hCG, AI, etc

[rollingthunder]

GFA
Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (free test) 100mg (1x100)
Summary - No ranges so unable to make accurate statement but from numbers, there was a huge drop in test switching to SQ.

5/31/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:19.1 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:40.8 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)*
*added AI here

7/25/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:23.5 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:10.4 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)*
*cut back on AI here

10/10/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:24.8 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:21.9 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)

12/18/2012 test results (SQ protocol-50 mg/2xwk):
free test:9.3 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:33.9 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)

now, to clarify, as i did in previous posts, i did change some other components of my HRT protocol at the same time that i switched to subQ - added HCG, dropped the AI. 10/10 blood was drawn approx 24 hrs after injecting. 12/18 blood was drawn at day 4, when i would have taken my next shot subQ.

so i am aware that this is not a good test, because too many variables were changed at the same time.

i still switched back to IM and we re-test in another week or so to check levels.

[HRTstudent]

Well I just got some blood work and wanted to share it with this relevant thread.

Now, this is not 100% clinical with only 1 variable, but I wasnt out to publish this in any journals I just want to feel good!

My results were quite interesting to me:

75mg injected intramuscular twice per week gave me a trough very close to the trough I got on 40mg injected subQ three times per week.

So for me, 150 IM was quite similar to 125mg subQ.

The bloodwork timing was a little different (close enough that I can draw useful conclusions about my personal T metabolism), but the numbers told a story that said subQ definitely works for me, and by switching to more frequency and a lower dose, I am able to get the same result testosterone-level-wise.

I do take anastrozole but not HCG. E2 labs on both of the above measurements were almost identical.

[GFA]

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

Allaaro
Baseline 19.1 (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase.

HRTStudent
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

Thoughts - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data regardless of frequency or dosage. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

It does appear SQ injections raise your testosterone levels but a large amount of the testosterone injection is metabolized/discarded via unknown means.

Cliffs - SQ doesn't work reliably.


Disclaimer - Those are my thoughts/cliffs from the lab work provided and doesn't reflect the community. Please feel free to make your own assessment because I could be completely wrong

[steroid.com 1]

I wonder if the OP is a SQ Hyperexcretor?

He may be okay IM but not SQ...would explain it.

I am the first to say we're all different and nothing is impossible; but I've never heard or read anything like this...anywhere.

People have been injecting drugs SQ for decades for all the right reasons and I've never heard of this reaction of non-absorption.

If it's not absorbing than where's it going???

He may have some type of adipose tissue condition that's blocking the blood barrier pathways into his blood stream that he's not aware of.

Dr. Eugene Shippen has been using HRT SQ protocols for years now with complete clinical success.

Diabetics have been injecting insulin SQ for decades and I've yet to see where there is insufficient absorption rates to render the protocol useless.

OP - Can you tell us exactly what type of syringes you are using for both IM and SQ and where you drawing back to for both. If you're using the same syringe for both than no need to answer.

Fascinating to be honest.

[GFA]

I wonder if the OP is a SQ Hyperexcretor?

He may be okay IM but not SQ...would explain it.

I am the first to say we're all different and nothing is impossible; but I've never heard or read anything like this...anywhere.

People have been injecting drugs SQ for decades for all the right reasons and I've never heard of this reaction of non-absorption.

If it's not absorbing than where's it going???

He may have some type of adipose tissue condition that's blocking the blood barrier pathways into his blood stream that he's not aware of.

Dr. Eugene Shippen has been using HRT SQ protocols for years now with complete clinical success.

Diabetics have been injecting insulin SQ for decades and I've yet to see where there is insufficient absorption rates to render the protocol useless.

OP - Can you tell us exactly what type of syringes you are using for both IM and SQ and where you drawing back to for both. If you're using the same syringe for both than no need to answer.

Fascinating to be honest.

I'm not the only SQ hyperexcretor, several others have reported similar findings.

25g, 5/8" needle used for SQ. 25g, 1" needle for IM. Same syringe used for draw,injection. I don't swap.

Maybe the test is just sitting in my fat and one day will be released in some massive explosion!

I'm guessing its being excreted in my urine or sweat.

Btw - HCG SQ works perfectly fine on my body, its just testosterone that doesnt work SQ.

[steroid.com 1]

"I'm guessing its being excreted in my urine or sweat."

If urine it would still have to make it into your blood stream to be metabolized by your liver and then your kidneys for that to happen.

If you were sweating it out you'd see ester stains all over your shirts...like blotches of oil stains.

[steroid.com 1]

Keep one other thing in mind when it comes to "testosterone metabolism".

Testosterone metabolizes in the blood stream and liver not at the injection site.

The injection administration has no value when it comes to metabolism rates in men.

What does matter is how much Testosterone gets into the blood stream and at what rate resulting in different peak and half life values for men.

The theory behind SQ injections is that it absorbs slightly slower than IM and with more frequent and lower doses a man could bypass the need for an AI similar to the same for men who use a transdermal administration.

So SQ is, in theory, supposed to absorb slower than IM resulting in more stable serum levels.

This suggests two propositions: one is that he must be absorbing at a much more rapid rate and by the time he tests serum levels it's well beyond peak or, two, he's just not absorbing for whatever the reason and the testosterone is just laying pooling in his fat pad.

I asked to well known TRT Doctors to provide me their opinion on the OP's situation...I will share when they respond...should be interesting and hope to learn more in the process.

[HRTstudent]

So, I guess if you have a sweaty ass then don't do subQ in the glutes! lol

[GFA]

So, I guess if you have a sweaty ass then don't do subQ in the glutes! lol

Ah so that explains the swamp ass.

Btw, where are you injecting SQ HRT?

[HRTstudent]

Ah so that explains the swamp ass.

Btw, where are you injecting SQ HRT?

I try to rotate it as much as I can using my abdomen and hip'ish area. I'll use different areas around my belly button such as left, upper/middle/lower, move to right, then move back to left but shift slightly medial, then switch to hip area, etc etc.

Using a 1/2" needle that I inject about 75% of the way in.

[steroid.com 1]

Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:

gd,
"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies.
Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
I just recommend changing the sq location.
Hope you're doing well."
Rich Gaines

Ok, so this goes to the one hypothesis I threw out there that possibly the OP has a condition with his adipose tissue that won't allow for proper absorption. Dr. Gaines makes the point and makes a recommendation on what AA Docs suggest as an alternative.

Makes sense to me; if there is a lack of blood vessels in the AT than the pathway for absorption will be compromised.

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may

[GFA]

Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:

gd,
"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies.
Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
I just recommend changing the sq location.
Hope you're doing well."
Rich Gaines

Ok, so this goes to the one hypothesis I threw out there that possibly the OP has a condition with his adipose tissue that won't allow for proper absorption. Dr. Gaines makes the point and makes a recommendation on what AA Docs suggest as an alternative.

Makes sense to me; if there is a lack of blood vessels in the AT than the pathway for absorption will be compromised.

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may

So basically don't inject into a beer gut?

I might try SQ again but going to stick with IM for awhile to get my levels up. If I do, Ill try in my thigh only.

[38onTRT]

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may

If the "fat pads" you've been injecting in are not as good as somewhere else on your body, then where is the test going if not absorbing well in the stomach area?

[GFA]

If the "fat pads" you've been injecting in are not as good as somewhere else on your body, then where is the test going if not absorbing well in the stomach area?

Hopefully metabolized or its just sitting in the fat (which is even scarier).

I don't like the result regardless and switching to IM for awhile. I might do SQ again thigh only to see if that changes the result. The idea of testosterone sitting in my fat doesn't sit well with me.

[booku]

Hopefully metabolized or its just sitting in the fat (which is even scarier).

I don't like the result regardless and switching to IM for awhile. I might do SQ again thigh only to see if that changes the result. The idea of testosterone sitting in my fat doesn't sit well with me.

It dont think it just sits in the fat, its lipid soluble and absorbs into cells via passive diffusion eventually

[fm2002]

Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:

gd,
"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies.
Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
I just recommend changing the sq location.
Hope you're doing well."
Rich Gaines

Ok, so this goes to the one hypothesis I threw out there that possibly the OP has a condition with his adipose tissue that won't allow for proper absorption. Dr. Gaines makes the point and makes a recommendation on what AA Docs suggest as an alternative.

Makes sense to me; if there is a lack of blood vessels in the AT than the pathway for absorption will be compromised.

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may

Somebody (not me as I'm a new member) with some credability should post these results on Crislers forum and see what reaction it gets there???

[dhickey]

Not exactly scientific but here's my recent experience.

T - 100mg x 2 IM
HCG - 250IU x 2 SQ
Adex - 1mg x 1
Total T - 1223
E2 - 14.5

T - 60mg x 2 SQ
HCG - 250IU x 2 SQ
Adex - .5mg x 2
Total T - 508
E2 - 36.7

Not sure if I'm going to try 60mg IM or 100mg SQ next. I'm relatively new to TRT, so I'm still trying optimize my program. I'll start a thread with more info.

[hugovsilva]

The same type of experiment discussed in another forum. This discussion is more centered in E2 conversion, but total T values are also shown:

"I had this same issue when I did E3D shots into my delts with 5/8" 31 gauge slin pins. My E2 plummeted to single digits.

My SubQ E2 seems to be a nice middle-ground between the deep IM shots with 1.5" needles and "shallow" IM injects with 5/8" needles.

My lab results:
During months of deep IM shots E3D
Total T--946ng/dL (range: 240-850)
Estradiol--34ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--Both were slightly above this lab's reference ranges but nonetheless I felt like crap during this time

During my SubQ injection months done E3D
Total T--1048ng/dL
Estradiol--16ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--Total T was even higher though my dosage has never been altered and note the drop in E2

During "shallow" IM injects into deltoid months (E3D)
Total T--962ng/dL (range: 240-850)
Estradiol--8ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--E2 was very low after trying this method, and I felt just as bad as when my E2 was elevated.

I have no idea why this ends up happening, but it does take experimentation because it will most likely be different for each individual as far as frequency, delivery method, and where to inject that gives them optimal results"

[booku]

hugovsilva,

what was your injection rotation routine for sub-Q done E3D? and how many mg per week were you on? were you on an AI and/or hCG as well?

[hugovsilva]

This example is not my experience. It is taken from a discussion in another forum.

The main discussion was about the difference in E2 conversion of subQ vs IM where it was clear that E2 conversion is less with subq shots.

But is interesting to see how his total T remained almost the same when comparing subq vs IM shot using the same dosage.

[JD250]

Good stuff GFA... I would however prefer (personally) to know how much test is needed to hit that sweet spot or whatever your optimum level is while including HCG and AIs. After all I want to be as close to perfect as possible and that WILL include HCG and possibly an AI. My point is that I would think it more useful if you determined that it takes X amount of test to have EVERYTHING in range while on SQ and IM, don't get me wrong I love what you've done and commend you for it I just think to be practical and useful on a personal level one would need to find the sweet spot for both methods including all meds and then compare the amounts it takes to get there.

I'm due for blood work, 50mgs T SQ eod, 250iu HCG eod, .25 mg AI twice a week........ I'll check back

Again, great work on this thread, very interesting stuff.

[fm2002]

Good stuff GFA... I would however prefer (personally) to know how much test is needed to hit that sweet spot or whatever your optimum level is while including HCG and AIs. After all I want to be as close to perfect as possible and that WILL include HCG and possibly an AI. My point is that I would think it more useful if you determined that it takes X amount of test to have EVERYTHING in range while on SQ and IM, don't get me wrong I love what you've done and commend you for it I just think to be practical and useful on a personal level one would need to find the sweet spot for both methods including all meds and then compare the amounts it takes to get there.

I'm due for blood work, 50mgs T SQ eod, 250iu HCG eod, .25 mg AI twice a week........ I'll check back

Again, great work on this thread, very interesting stuff.

Great point ! For me Testosterone is very cheap and I for one wouldn't mind injecting more or more often SubQ if I could depend on the results.

[bethdoth]

Wow being new to HRT you guys have me all messed up. I tried the androgel and the patch, from fall 2011 till fall 2012, it did not absorb. Then my doctor prescribed 100mg Test CyP once a week IM. I did not follow her instructions and did two 50mg SQ injections every 3.5 days (Sunday morning and Wed evening). I did the SQ injections in the left side of my belly fat on wed and right on Sunday with a 25gauge 1/2" syringe I just did my 6 week blood work (Wed morning) and was very disappointed. As you can see from the table of my lab results below 6 weeks only brought me up from 303 to 394. I am doing Test only so I may be a good candidate to do another one man test! I just don't know what to do? IM once a week at 100mg...change sites to my thighs and continue SQ? I don't have that much fat and am not sure how to do SQ in the thigh? 3/8" needle?
I do see a new doctor next Wed the 30th and he may change everything? But, I would be willing to be another test case for this thread.