north Korea

[Kärnfysikern]

Its not about the nukes. N Korea does this every couple years to shake us down. If they actually thought we were serious they would stop. You dont deal with a bully by giving him what he wants time after time.

Besides...we could carpet bomb the place with nukes. They know that.

I agree with that. If the world suddenly gives N.Korea more aid now its stupid. That would also be telling Iran to go ahead do whatever you want.

The best thing would be to just dont do shit. If giving aid give it with demands that you can observe who it goes to ect.

[Phreak101]

Well it depends. To me aid for instance is given without any strings attached. Like a christmas gift.

America has done alot of good and alot of bad just like most other nations.

Demands regarding north korea and to some extent Iran though I back fully and I hope sweden officialy does aswell. But telling the world to shut up regarding the Iraq war for instance isnt right.

It all depends on the nature of the demands and the situation.

American can be seen as hypocrits because they more or less support india and israel to have nukes despite the Non-Proliferation while they oppose Iran and N.Korea. Offcourse IMO India and Israel can handle them while Iran and N.Korea cant.
But to stay true to the treaty USA should be openly oposed to Israeli nukes aswell and not support Indian nuclear industry. Otherwise the whole thing is just a joke and the NPT is the best hope we have of keeping this world free of nuclear weapons. I have to say that the UK is just as hypocritical though because they helped israel develop there nukes.

I wholeheartedly agree. The US is by no means perfect, but nothing pisses me off more than my fellow countrymen bashing this country as a whole because of the political agenda of a few. It's real easy to spout out nonsense that you watch on CNN without knowing the whole truth.

[USfighterFC]

All this really comes down to is extortion. North Korea always rattles the cage to get what they want from us which is aid, 2 light water reactors and money. You cannot keep appeasing them. Remember Germany when they annexed the Rhineland...no country said a word about it and let Germany have their way. Next they annexed another territory without reprecussions. Because Europe sat around Germany decided to invade all of Eastern and Western Europe. You cannot keep giving ground because if you give a country like North korea and inch they will take a mile and they have shown this time and time again. Honestly I want the tightest sanctions possible on North Korea. I know that will hurt the civilian population but I'd rather see North koreans suffer than to have an all out nuclear war where millions will inevitably die.

[ZIA1]

Well it depends. To me aid for instance is given without any strings attached. Like a christmas gift.

America has done alot of good and alot of bad just like most other nations.

Demands regarding north korea and to some extent Iran though I back fully and I hope sweden officialy does aswell. But telling the world to shut up regarding the Iraq war for instance isnt right.

It all depends on the nature of the demands and the situation.

American can be seen as hypocrits because they more or less support india and israel to have nukes despite the Non-Proliferation while they oppose Iran and N.Korea. Offcourse IMO India and Israel can handle them while Iran and N.Korea cant.
But to stay true to the treaty USA should be openly oposed to Israeli nukes aswell and not support Indian nuclear industry. Otherwise the whole thing is just a joke and the NPT is the best hope we have of keeping this world free of nuclear weapons. I have to say that the UK is just as hypocritical though because they helped israel develop there nukes.

Just to be clear: Israel has never admitted to having nukes. Secondly, if she does, it was not the UK that helped the Israelis develop them. France provided the reactor...from there, its anyone's guess.

By the way, did you guys know that North Korea has sold some serioius hardware to the Iranians? The deals have already occurred.

[USfighterFC]

Just to be clear: Israel has never admitted to having nukes. Secondly, if she does, it was not the UK that helped the Israelis develop them. France provided the reactor...from there, its anyone's guess.

By the way, did you guys know that North Korea has sold some serioius hardware to the Iranians? The deals have already occurred.

Yes and they have sold long range missile technology to Pakistan as well. They are broke as Russia is. This is why Russia is buildng a reactor in Iran for 800 million dollars. The more nuclear technology spreads the more you will encounter nightmare scenarios. The only problem is the nightmare is real.

[RA]

All this really comes down to is extortion. North Korea always rattles the cage to get what they want from us which is aid, 2 light water reactors and money. You cannot keep appeasing them. Remember Germany when they annexed the Rhineland...no country said a word about it and let Germany have their way. Next they annexed another territory without reprecussions. Because Europe sat around Germany decided to invade all of Eastern and Western Europe. You cannot keep giving ground because if you give a country like North korea and inch they will take a mile and they have shown this time and time again. Honestly I want the tightest sanctions possible on North Korea. I know that will hurt the civilian population but I'd rather see North koreans suffer than to have an all out nuclear war where millions will inevitably die.

Agreed. The thing that bothers me is that in two year we will most likely see a Democrat as president. If they are anything like Bill Clinton it will just strengthen N Korea's position.

[USfighterFC]

The French have shown how irresponsible they are with nuke technology as well building a reactor for Iraq in the 1980's. Because of that reactor it was estimated Saddam was within 6 months of developing a nuclear weapon before Israel bombed the shit out of it.

[Kärnfysikern]

Just to be clear: Israel has never admitted to having nukes. Secondly, if she does, it was not the UK that helped the Israelis develop them. France provided the reactor...from there, its anyone's guess.

By the way, did you guys know that North Korea has sold some serioius hardware to the Iranians? The deals have already occurred.

Well after Mordechain Vanunu any official word is not needed.

BBC got ahold of documents and reported that UK supplied Israel with lithum 6, lots of heavy water and samples of U-235 and Plutonium.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200603130011

IAEA even investigaed it so its not like its lose acusations.

[Kärnfysikern]

Yes and they have sold long range missile technology to Pakistan as well. They are broke as Russia is. This is why Russia is buildng a reactor in Iran for 800 million dollars. The more nuclear technology spreads the more you will encounter nightmare scenarios. The only problem is the nightmare is real.

Nuclear technology HAS to spread if this world is gonna stand a chanse to handle a switch from fossile fuels. Reactors can be designed such that no waste can be used in bomb making. So reactors in itself isnt realy a danger.

Any nations has the right to develop peacefull nuclear technology according to the NPT. Thats something I feel ALL nations should fully support and western nations should even aid nuclear technology in developing countries as much as possible.

[Logan13]

Its not about the nukes. N Korea does this every couple years to shake us down. If they actually thought we were serious they would stop. You dont deal with a bully by giving him what he wants time after time.
Besides...we could carpet bomb the place with nukes. They know that.

Liberals believe in doing just this........obvious from the thread.

[Logan13]

Aim not ascendant but Im gonna answere anyway...
Wrong. The world has no obligation to do anything that the US demands. None.

And the US has no obligation to send anyone foreign aid. ANYONE! We will not sit by and be blackmailed by the likes of kim jong...whatever his name is, or by anyone else. We will not have our hands tied by pacifist countries that do little to maintain peace throughout the world, but only complain about the steps taken by the one's who are actually doing something. I can guarantee you one thing, if n korea does fire a nuke at a country, it will be dealt with extremely harsh. I also guarantee you that your country, Sweden, will do absolutely nothing to help defeat such an evil leader. Your country will sit on its hands and only complain about any and all actions taken against n korea. You want a solution that does not contain sanctions or all-out-war: bomb every and all missle sights and manufacturing facilities from the air. There will be civilian casualties from such a carpet bombing, and I imagine that the LEFT will bitch about that, but at least his ace will be taken away.
-Logan13

[Badgerman]

I agree that we should never have to bomb civilians, but I am not against the bombing of Japan. Think of how many tens of thousands of american lives, and Japanese lives, it would cost to take Japan by force with a ground assault. Think of D-Day, I know this is one of the first things I think of when thinking about WWII because of how terrible it was. That's what daily battle would have been against Japan. Know matter where we attack we would have been storming the beach.

To avoid that the US decided to drop the bomb, which I'm sure was a terrible and tough decision. That was when it fell into the hands of Japan, the reason for that bomb was to force surrender, hence save tens of thousands of American lives, but what did Japan do? They didn't surrender forcing a second bomb. I know that dropping the bomb was terrible but more than the US's decision it was Japans decision, at least their emperors.

I know it's terrible to kill civilians, but at what point is a Japanese civilian's life worth more than an American soldier's life.

The civilians don't have the option of surrendering.........
If you support the bombing of Japan civilians.........then you have no right to be outraged at Saddam gassing Kurds........since he applied the same value judgment.

And ANY civilian is more important than any soldier........

[ascendant]

The United States is an acknowledged world superpower. If we are going to have countries begging us for support and demanding that we act to intervene (Mogadishu, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc) then the rest of the world better put up or shut up when it comes time for us to make some demands. Plain and simple.

I completely disagree. This is the power-happy mentality that causes war, and what pisses other countries off about the US, this superiority complex. Just because some people ask you for help in the gym doesn't mean you have the right to walk up to anyone and tell them what to do. It's the US's choice who to help, who not to help, what to intervene in, and what not to.

Kim Jong Il has constantly sent open threats against the United States for the sole reason of beign bought off by the U.S. We cannot go after North Korea and his lunacy because of China and Russia and he knows it. his country is flat broke because they have one of the biggest standing armies in the world, so the only way he can get some semblance of a GDP is to extort the U.S. with nonsense rhetoric and hollow threats, backed by the power of nukes. We are NOT aggravating the situation by any means, he is.

Again, I must disagree with the boldfaced part of the above quote. We are aggravating it by humoring his bs threats. If we ignored it, he'd realize it won't accomplish anything. By humoring him, he knows this is a way to get what he wants. It's like at some point a child begins to realize the parents aren't going to respond to them every time they cry for attention. That's what I feel needs to be done here, either that or actual action rather than the US and the UN simply shaking their finger and saying no at him. Ignoring him would eventually get him to realize doing this isn't going to work.

And 9/11 did NOT happen because the U.S. is intervening in the affairs of other countries. There are many theories but the one that holds the most water is the U.S. backed support of Israel. We are seen as Zionist supporting infidels to these people. We got bombed for supporting an ally. Same thing happened in WW2.

I'm not talking about theories, I'm talking about words that were said directly from Bin Laden. Direct quotes from him have stated he hates the US for pushing their beliefs on his people and for intervening in their affairs. Not going to get into all the details, but I'm sure there's plenty of info about it on the web. If you feel a need for it, I'll find some for you indicating this particular issue Bin Laden has with our country. I'm sure your above statements hold truth as well, but my statements were indeed a contributing factor as well.

If you had Chinese soldiers rolling up into your yard threatening to torture your family and throw you in prison, would you be against the power of nuclear weaponry putting a stop to all of that? Of course not. How about if you had to choose between your son's life and the soldiers and civillians of a country you are at war with?

actually, yes i would be completely against nuclear weaponry to stop it, cause what would that stop besides the lives of innocent civilians in their country? the people i would want dead are the soldiers that would be in our country. we have plenty of weapons that can level a specific target without the need for civilian casualties. with a nuke, there's no way there wouldn't be civilian casualties.

you seem to have a strong identification with the actions of the country you live in. if the country goes to war with another country, in your eyes, it seems as if you would consider yourself at war with them as well. though i identify with US citizens, i do not identify with the actions of our govt to that extent.

there is simply no justification behind having nukes save for causing massive casualties toward another country that would innevitably cause innocents to be killed simply for where they live.

Incorrect statement. As a whoel the UN majority backed the United States, it was the major Veto Powers that did not unanimously agree. Would you give a murderer 10 years unguarded to tell you where he his his bodies? No. So why was Sadamm allowed 10 years without weapons inspections? Attempting to keep the most destructive technology known to man out of the hands of people who have no intent but war is NOT hypocritical.

No matter how you look at it, the UN did not see reasonable cause to go after Saddam. If you believe that is untrue, I'd like to see some evidence backing your statement?

Also, I never stated what you mentioned above as being hypocritical. It was the matter of us telling countries that we don't want to have nukes they can't when we have them ourselves. Even if one country in a sense knows better than to misuse them and knows another country doesn't, use a basis of comparison of two people. You can tell your buddy that his girlfriend is trouble, but will he listen? Usually not until it's too late, and continually nagging him about his girl will not do anything but aggravate him with you. The best you can usually do in a situation like that is leave it alone and let him find out for himself.

What are we hoping to accomplish with humoring n korea right now? The only thing that seems like it would stop him at this point is a war, which would obviously do far more harm than good. After all, he may never use a nuke, yet we go after him and he decides to because of the action we took against him all because of a concern that he might one day. We could inadvertently push him to do something he never intended to do.

Brush up on your history man. Taxation without representation, plain and simple. The Indians? We tried to trade with them, there were even Indians who colloborated with US troops to bring down rival tribes! It's real easy to bash the big boy, but cmon examine the facts. Of course you're going to see a different history than the one the U.S. is portraying. History is written by those who win wars. It's all about who you're hearing it from. You wouldn't be sitting on your comp bashing this country today if it wasn't for the "bloody past" of the U.S.

In regards to the taxation issue, I know there was reasoning behind their actions as to why they fought them. However, all I'm saying is there's two sides to this. After all, the entire trip was paid for by them and so in a sense it's an investment, which nowadays people expect a profit from. They were hoping to make their money off their "investment", and the people of the US decided they'd rather not. Not saying either side is right, just saying it all depends on how you look at it.

As far as the indians and us trading with them, sure, we traded with them. We traded blankets that were infested with diseases we knew the indians had no cures for. Many of them welcomed us with open arms and we stabbed them in the back with infectious disease. Take a walk onto any reservation anywhere in the country and you'll find this to be fact. If you think we were so friendly with so many of them, why are there so few left in the country and why are they isolated to reservations? Your facts are not matching reality here. Though some indians were violent towards us, you don't know their true reasoning why, and those who were friends with us are in far fewer numbers now. Again, you seem to be missing the other side of this story.

As far as bashing this country, you seem to misunderstand my intents. I'm merely trying to point out that there isn't necessarily a "right" and "wrong" side of many of these situations. As you stated in your quote yourself, it all depends on who you're hearing it from.

Alright, when they start a war with japan that we are sucked into, you let me know how hypocritical it was when millions are dying ebcause we let them have nukes.

we never "let them" have anything. they're doing it themselves, and it's their country. we really have no business to stop them and i don't see how it can even be done at this point. i don't have a solution to this issue and i'm not saying people shouldn't be making a fuss over what he's doing. the entire point of my original statements in here was simply that the US was being hypocrites. now it's escalated into assumptions that are simply not how i see things.

if we're going to intervene into any countries affairs, i personally think it should be south americas. after all, their countries economy is shot, their people are flooding into our country because of it, and it's negatively affecting our countries economy because of it. with how dramatically their issues are affecting our country and how badly people from their country want to move to america to make a far easier living for themselves, i personally think we should be foucusing on making them clean up their act so that their economical issues stop flooding into our countries before we become a 3rd world country which with the way things are going, we're well on our way to becoming.

[ascendant]

Your very long post was quite illumative of how the revisionist history taught in primary and secondary schools, along with colleges has been a prime cause of our own citizens hating their country. And don't respond by saying you don't hate your country...you do...its all too apparent in your other posts as well. I find it sad that several generations now have been poisioned by the public school systems that are run by left wing, socialist, America hating "scholors", (I use that term very loosesly here).

I find it hard to understand how people like you, who are obviously on such a higher moral plane, continue to live and work in such a horribly despicable, war mongering, oppressive, hypocritical, and ignorant country. I would think each day for you must be terrible. My question is really, why don't you and those of your philosohy move to a country that shares your philosohy and exists in such a highly moral and fair state??

so now i'm not allowed to say i don't hate the US cause you say so? johan stated it quite well here:

I think you are overreacting to his posts. Its one thing to hate a country and a whole different thing to be against the actions of the goverment(both past and present).

There isnt a country in this world that doesnt have a dirty past. Its something everyone should be aware of so that we can prevent it from happening again.

Hating what the american goverment did to indians isnt hating america. It would be like saying a german that hates nazis hate germany, or that I hate sweden because I dislike some of the things former swedish kings have done.

by the way, thanks johan as you're one of the very few which seems to understand the point i'm trying to get across here.

as far as what public schools teach, it has nothing to do with that. it has to do with looking at both sides of a situation, which you seem to choose not to do in this situation as you seem to be determined to back up the US under any circumstance and justify it as "patriotic".

as far as your statements regarding this country and the words you put into my mouth as far as how i feel about it, i like the people of the US, i just don't particularly like our govt and was just pointing out the fact that the US isn't without some blemishes itself. i never said there was any other countries that was any better. pretty much all politicians from anywhere you go are corrupt as hell IMO. however, i do not deal with our govt directly on a daily basis, i deal with other US citizens, which i am perfectly content with.

[ZIA1]

Well after Mordechain Vanunu any official word is not needed.

BBC got ahold of documents and reported that UK supplied Israel with lithum 6, lots of heavy water and samples of U-235 and Plutonium.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200603130011

IAEA even investigaed it so its not like its lose acusations.

I want to look into this before I respond. Vananu is not a credible source though I understand why you used him.

[Badgerman]

shhhhhh...........don't let anybody know Israel has nukes........

[Badgerman]

so now i'm not allowed to say i don't hate the US cause you say so? johan stated it quite well here:



by the way, thanks johan as you're one of the very few which seems to understand the point i'm trying to get across here.

as far as what public schools teach, it has nothing to do with that. it has to do with looking at both sides of a situation, which you seem to choose not to do in this situation as you seem to be determined to back up the US under any circumstance and justify it as "patriotic".

as far as your statements regarding this country and the words you put into my mouth as far as how i feel about it, i like the people of the US, i just don't particularly like our govt and was just pointing out the fact that the US isn't without some blemishes itself. i never said there was any other countries that was any better. pretty much all politicians from anywhere you go are corrupt as hell IMO. however, i do not deal with our govt directly on a daily basis, i deal with other US citizens, which i am perfectly content with.

I understand........people always have a blind spot to hypocrisy in the name of patriotism..........the Boston Tea Party was definitely first class terrorism.......and what did they do.......dress up as Indians?.......

Half the guys here would be killing Indians if they owned the tea company.

[Kärnfysikern]

And the US has no obligation to send anyone foreign aid. ANYONE! We will not sit by and be blackmailed by the likes of kim jong...whatever his name is, or by anyone else. We will not have our hands tied by pacifist countries that do little to maintain peace throughout the world, but only complain about the steps taken by the one's who are actually doing something. I can guarantee you one thing, if n korea does fire a nuke at a country, it will be dealt with extremely harsh. I also guarantee you that your country, Sweden, will do absolutely nothing to help defeat such an evil leader. Your country will sit on its hands and only complain about any and all actions taken against n korea. You want a solution that does not contain sanctions or all-out-war: bomb every and all missle sights and manufacturing facilities from the air. There will be civilian casualties from such a carpet bombing, and I imagine that the LEFT will bitch about that, but at least his ace will be taken away.
-Logan13

Well I agree that you have no obligation to send aid to anyone. Never claimed you have.

The thing is that if america does that it is america that will lose almost 40 000 soliders and your allie south korea will suffer unimaginable causalities.

Are you willing to let them die because of the slim risk that kim would ever nuke anyone? Whos to say he will ever use it? The odds are probably not big. He probably just wants it to scare you and japan.

If your willing to give 40 000 american soliders a death sentance along with hundrads of thousands of south koreans and possibly alot of japanese aswell simply because you suspect someone might use a nuclear weapon then go ahead. Carpet bomb them. But it wont be a easy war like Iraq....

Funny that you think you are taking steps toward world peace while all of europe(even the world maby) thing Bush is the greatest threat to world peace... But I guess america is always right and the rest of the world doesnt have a clue...

[Kärnfysikern]

I want to look into this before I respond. Vananu is not a credible source though I understand why you used him.

Let me know what you find

[Badgerman]

Well I agree that you have no obligation to send aid to anyone. Never claimed you have.

The thing is that if america does that it is america that will lose almost 40 000 soliders and your allie south korea will suffer unimaginable causalities.

Are you willing to let them die because of the slim risk that kim would ever nuke anyone? Whos to say he will ever use it? The odds are probably not big. He probably just wants it to scare you and japan.

If your willing to give 40 000 american soliders a death sentance along with hundrads of thousands of south koreans and possibly alot of japanese aswell simply because you suspect someone might use a nuclear weapon then go ahead. Carpet bomb them. But it wont be a easy war like Iraq....

Funny that you think you are taking steps toward world peace while all of europe(even the world maby) thing Bush is the greatest threat to world peace... But I guess america is always right and the rest of the world doesnt have a clue...

I think China would squash PRNK if they upset the trade with US.......
North Korea is just jumping up and down in their crib wanting some freebies.
I agree our foreign policy is scarey........eventually we're going to run out of money on the Iraq deal.......We definiety need to open direct talks with all nations.........and get religious leaders to meet on a regular basis..........they influence the masses..........communication works if it is not always confrontational. For example.......would the PRNK back off if we withdrew
from the border?..........I mean unless you're willing to level any obstinate country..........diplomacy is the only way........MAKE THINGS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.........there is always a way to achieve that

[Logan13]

Well I agree that you have no obligation to send aid to anyone. Never claimed you have.

The thing is that if america does that it is america that will lose almost 40 000 soliders and your allie south korea will suffer unimaginable causalities.

Are you willing to let them die because of the slim risk that kim would ever nuke anyone? Whos to say he will ever use it? The odds are probably not big. He probably just wants it to scare you and japan.

If your willing to give 40 000 american soliders a death sentance along with hundrads of thousands of south koreans and possibly alot of japanese aswell simply because you suspect someone might use a nuclear weapon then go ahead. Carpet bomb them. But it wont be a easy war like Iraq....

Funny that you think you are taking steps toward world peace while all of europe(even the world maby) thing Bush is the greatest threat to world peace... But I guess america is always right and the rest of the world doesnt have a clue...

Again, we will not be blackmailed into giving aid. You are correct, the rest of the Liberal world does not have a clue. How can they draw a rational and logical view of the World's issues from the nose bleed section? They are constantly sticking their head in the sand, only popping it out long enough to criticize the US for taking action while they do absolutely NOTHING. It is no suprise that your solution to the n korea problem is to "just give them what they want". If you are not part of the solution, you ARE part of the problem.

[Logan13]

I think China would squash PRNK if they upset the trade with US.......
North Korea is just jumping up and down in their crib wanting some freebies.
I agree our foreign policy is scarey........eventually we're going to run out of money on the Iraq deal.......We definiety need to open direct talks with all nations.........and get religious leaders to meet on a regular basis..........they influence the masses..........communication works if it is not always confrontational. For example.......would the PRNK back off if we withdrew
from the border?..........I mean unless you're willing to level any obstinate country..........diplomacy is the only way........MAKE THINGS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.........there is always a way to achieve that

I can't believe that I am saying this...good points. Did someone else sign in under Badgerman?

[Kärnfysikern]

Again, we will not be blackmailed into giving aid. You are correct, the rest of the Liberal world does not have a clue. How can they draw a rational and logical view of the World's issues from the nose bleed section? They are constantly sticking their head in the sand, only popping it out long enough to criticize the US for taking action while they do absolutely NOTHING. It is no suprise that your solution to the n korea problem is to "just give them what they want". If you are not part of the solution, you ARE part of the problem.

So what you are saying is that you are willing to let 40 000 american soliders die just to make sure N.Korea doesnt get a new toy in its arsenal? Because that is the inevitable result of bombing N.Korea. That is your solution?

Last time I checked I aint giving North Korea anything at all.

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont se where you get the idea that I even think you should give aid to N.Korea. Show me one post in this thread where I have said anyone should give aid to N.Korea.

Instead of beeing so busy boosting your pride about america and calling every country that disagress with you for pacifist pussies, maby you should acctualy listen to the objections of other countries. Most people value lifes a bit more than you and are not prepared to throw them away unless its absolutely neccesary.

I dont se why pacifism is a bad thing either. Mahatma Gandhi acomplished alot more without violence than he would have with violence.

Violence should always be the absolute last resort when absolutely nothing else have even the slightest possibility to work.

I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace. Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war

[Logan13]

I dont se where you get the idea that I even think you should give aid to N.Korea. Show me one post in this thread where I have said anyone should give aid to N.Korea.

Instead of beeing so busy boosting your pride about america and calling every country that disagress with you for pacifist pussies, maby you should acctualy listen to the objections of other countries. Most people value lifes a bit more than you and are not prepared to throw them away unless its absolutely neccesary.

I dont se why pacifism is a bad thing either. Mahatma Gandhi acomplished alot more without violence than he would have with violence.

Violence should always be the absolute last resort when absolutely nothing else have even the slightest possibility to work.

How can you expect the US to take anything that these pacifist countries has to say with anything more than a grain of salt? They are not involved in anything, and yet they feel that they have some great wisdom to shed on the world's events and that the US should "take heed" of this wisdom. We do listen to what our allies say who are actually in the front lines. If you want a say, get into the game, otherwise you are only a spectator.....
I am not talking about violence as the answer to everything, not at all. But you have to be willing to follow through with action once diplomacy has failed. Your country and many like it are not willing to take action, no matter what. If the free world just followed your lead in world politics, we would have 10 Kim Jong Ils instead of one. As far as valuing life more, perhaps Sweden should have done something during WW2 to save Jewish lives if they are so concerned with human life. Do not tell me how you "value life more". Your inaction has definately not saved any lives.......... Be as pacifist as you want, just stay out of our business while doing so.

[Logan13]

So what you are saying is that you are willing to let 40 000 american soliders die just to make sure N.Korea doesnt get a new toy in its arsenal? Because that is the inevitable result of bombing N.Korea. That is your solution?

Last time I checked I aint giving North Korea anything at all.

Nor are you giving the rest of the world which wants to deal with this issue anything either. The only thing that pacifist countries give is opinion...........

[Kärnfysikern]

How can you expect the US to take anything that these pacifist countries has to say with anything more than a grain of salt? They are not involved in anything, and yet they feel that they have some great wisdom to shed on the world's events and that the US should "take heed" of this wisdom. We do listen to what our allies say who are actually in the front lines. If you want a say, get into the game, otherwise you are only a spectator.....
I am not talking about violence as the answer to everything, not at all. But you have to be willing to follow through with action once diplomacy has failed. Your country and many like it are not willing to take action, no matter what. If the free world just followed your lead in world politics, we would have 10 Kim Jong Ils instead of one. As far as valuing life more, perhaps Sweden should have done something during WW2 to save Jewish lives if they are so concerned with human life. Do not tell me how you "value life more". Your inaction has definately not saved any lives.......... Be as pacifist as you want, just stay out of our business while doing so.

Read a bit about Raoul Wallenberg and Folke Bernadotte. Sweden couldnt do shit without getting stomped to oblivion but we still had plenty of swedes that did alot. Not to mention ALOT of swedes went over to finland to help fight the russians. They where fully armed by the swedish armed forces.

About not beeing involved in anything. I have already shown in numerous threads that most european countries gives more aid per capita than america and sweden has plenty of UN peacekeeping forces. But your view of beeing involed just seems to involve bombings..
Building schools, treating diseases, preventing the spreading of aids. All those things arent important right, none of those things qualify as beeing involved in anything?? You seem to have a very limited view on what qualifies as beeing involved.

You still havent answered the question if you are willing to let 40 000 american soliders die just to prevent Kim from getting a new toy? Because ultimately that is what its all about.

[Kärnfysikern]

Nor are you giving the rest of the world which wants to deal with this issue anything either. The only thing that pacifist countries give is opinion...........

we just choose to give other things than bullets and bombs. The avarage swedes gives more than the avarage american...

[Kärnfysikern]

now lets stop dancing around this issue

Answere this question. Because this is what its all about.

Are you preapred to sacrifice 40 000 fellow american citizens to prevent kim from playing with his new toys?

Im not.

[Kärnfysikern]

Logan we have debated countless of times and I always respect your oppinions, but this time I just cant not understand how you would be willing to use force against N.Korea. Not with the causalities involved in doing so.

[Logan13]

Read a bit about Raoul Wallenberg and Folke Bernadotte. Sweden couldnt do shit without getting stomped to oblivion but we still had plenty of swedes that did alot. Not to mention ALOT of swedes went over to finland to help fight the russians. They where fully armed by the swedish armed forces.

About not beeing involved in anything. I have already shown in numerous threads that most european countries gives more aid per capita than america and sweden has plenty of UN peacekeeping forces. But your view of beeing involed just seems to involve bombings..
Building schools, treating diseases, preventing the spreading of aids. All those things arent important right, none of those things qualify as beeing involved in anything?? You seem to have a very limited view on what qualifies as beeing involved.

You still havent answered the question if you are willing to let 40 000 american soliders die just to prevent Kim from getting a new toy? Because ultimately that is what its all about.

He's got the "toy" already, and as I said earlier. If the rest of the world followed your lead, we would have 10 Kim Jong Il's instead of the one. Your simplistic view about bombing n korea lacks full thought. All bases target at the same time, what will be left to shoot south? And why you are asking for answers to questions, why not address mine to you about "caring for lives more"? I do not want 40,000 soldiers to die, but how many people will die from a long range nuke in the hands of a mad man?

[Logan13]

we just choose to give other things than bullets and bombs. The avarage swedes gives more than the avarage american...

During times of war, you give ZERO. Again, this goes back to my statement in regards to WW2. Our tax dollars were spend in defending freedom over the last 60 years. You should figure that into the sum total of what has been given by Americans. One day, it will be our tax dollars could be saving your country from a hostile take-over, it is a pity that that the reverse is not true. You are an easy target since you will not retaliate, these rogue nations will and have taken notice of this.

[Logan13]

now lets stop dancing around this issue

Answere this question. Because this is what its all about.

Are you preapred to sacrifice 40 000 fellow american citizens to prevent kim from playing with his new toys?

Im not.

I have given you a solution, now let's hear yours....What do we do when diplomacy fails with n korea? BTW, "I don't know" and/or "nothing" are not answers.

[Kärnfysikern]

He's got the "toy" already, and as I said earlier. If the rest of the world followed your lead, we would have 10 Kim Jong Il's instead of the one. Your simplistic view about bombing n korea lacks full thought. All bases target at the same time, what will be left to shoot south? And why you are asking for answers to questions, why not address mine to you about "caring for lives more"? I do not want 40,000 soldiers to die, but how many people will die from a long range nuke in the hands of a mad man?

well I belive giving food, medicine and help in constructing hospitals and preventing the spread of dangerous disease is caring more for lifes than giving bombs and bullets. Il rather spend money in africa than send troops to iraq. Thats caring for lifes. Educating people and raising there standard of living is the key to getting rid of the reqruiting base fanatics have imo.

About ww2. Sweden entering would have been stupidity at its highest. We would have been overrun almost as quickly as denmark and norway. Germany probably had more soliders than sweden had population.

What will be left to shot and invande the south is the close to 1 million army stationed closed to the DMZ not to mention the immense artillery north korea has aviable that can reach seoul....If you want to get rid of that you have to nuke the entire northern side of the DMZ.

Also dont forget that america has SUPORTED many dictators when it suits them. So if the rest of the world followed swedens lead those dictators wouldnt have been in power.

What gives you the reason to belive Kim will ever launch a nuke at america. If he wanted to nuke someone he could have already nuked Tokyo. Sacrificing alot of lifes just because you suspect he might do something isnt reason enough.

[ascendant]

Logan we have debated countless of times and I always respect your oppinions, but this time I just cant not understand how you would be willing to use force against N.Korea. Not with the causalities involved in doing so.

i'm with you on this johan, though it seems way too many others are too involved with being "patriotic" and backing our govt's actions to see any reason here. i just don't understand how so many americans are completely blind to how things really are rather than just listening to what our media tells us?

when we invaded iraq, we had no damn right to. if their people wanted change as bush claimed, they should've taken action themselves. if they can't, that should not be the responsibility of another country to do so for them. one country has no place to decide "what's best" for another. they don't live there, they don't see it everyday and live in it. they have no clue what's best for their people. but time and time again, the US govt intervenes with their conceited "we're right" attitude.

i have seen posts complaining about other countries not taking action. well IMO, the US takes too much action, and keeps putting their noses where it doesn't belong. by doing so, they continually piss of more and more of the other countries at us, which will only potentially lead to more and more attacks on the US, either terrorist or otherwise.

personally, i think n korea is doing something really stupid right now, but in all honesty, you really think they can't make nuclear weapons covertly? this whole thing is just for attention and should not be humored. it's impossible to watch over a whole country and oversee all their actions. at least with him ranting about it like he is, we at least know what he's doing and can keep an eye on it.

how would all you US citizens like it if the US started doing some kind of new weapons research and another country started telling us "no, you can't do that"? chances are, you'd think "f*ck you, it's our country and we can do whatever we want". however, when you see the US do it to another country, you expect them to think it's acceptable? eventually, the US is gonna push around the wrong country, and eventually one of those countries is gonna push back, and "big brother" is gonna be in for a big surprise when one day a country we finally push too far makes 9/11 look like a scratch on the knee.

[Kärnfysikern]

I have given you a solution, now let's hear yours....What do we do when diplomacy fails with n korea? BTW, "I don't know" and/or "nothing" are not answers.

Dont give them any aid, dont acnoweledge his threats. Let him have his rocket because he knows that if he ever uses them he is dead.
Doing nothing is a answere. Just ask mahatma ghandi.

[Kärnfysikern]

During times of war, you give ZERO. Again, this goes back to my statement in regards to WW2. Our tax dollars were spend in defending freedom over the last 60 years. You should figure that into the sum total of what has been given by Americans. One day, it will be our tax dollars could be saving your country from a hostile take-over, it is a pity that that the reverse is not true. You are an easy target since you will not retaliate, these rogue nations will and have taken notice of this.

We stayed out of WW2 simply because entering would have done nothing else but bring suffering to sweden. We wouldnt have stood a chanse. We would have been overrun within days. Not to mention The allies would have imietly bombed our rich mining areas to hell and back to prevent nazis from getting hold of them. We would have lost everything and gained nothing. We wouldnt have saved one single life and lost plenty. What would be the logic of that?

Your tax dollars has been spent on supporting dicators aswell. Dont try to think that everything the american goverment does is all good. That is certanly a simplistic view. So defending freedom is bullshit. Defending american interests is more like it and I dont have a problem with that aslong as it doesnt interfer with other countries buisness.

Lol it will be a cold day in hell before sweden is invaded. Last time I checked we are pretty damn far away from any country wishing to expand. Maby Finland wants to expand its bounderies or norway

[Kärnfysikern]

What pisses me of is when people claim european countries are just pacifist countries that does "nothing". We choose not to take military action against other countries. That doesnt mean we doesnt help ALOT all over the world.

Maby just maby european countries has learned not to meddle after our age of imperialism.

[Logan13]

We stayed out of WW2 simply because entering would have done nothing else but bring suffering to sweden. We wouldnt have stood a chanse. We would have been overrun within days. Not to mention The allies would have imietly bombed our rich mining areas to hell and back to prevent nazis from getting hold of them. We would have lost everything and gained nothing. We wouldnt have saved one single life and lost plenty. What would be the logic of that?

Your tax dollars has been spent on supporting dicators aswell. Dont try to think that everything the american goverment does is all good. That is certanly a simplistic view. So defending freedom is bullshit. Defending american interests is more like it and I dont have a problem with that aslong as it doesnt interfer with other countries buisness.

Lol it will be a cold day in hell before sweden is invaded. Last time I checked we are pretty damn far away from any country wishing to expand. Maby Finland wants to expand its bounderies or norway

You never know, maybe the US will want a northern getaway for it's citizens some day. Knowing that you guys will just cave, perhaps it could happen with no loss to life..........

[Logan13]

i'm with you on this johan, though it seems way too many others are too involved with being "patriotic" and backing our govt's actions to see any reason here. i just don't understand how so many americans are completely blind to how things really are rather than just listening to what our media tells us?

when we invaded iraq, we had no damn right to. if their people wanted change as bush claimed, they should've taken action themselves. if they can't, that should not be the responsibility of another country to do so for them. one country has no place to decide "what's best" for another. they don't live there, they don't see it everyday and live in it. they have no clue what's best for their people. but time and time again, the US govt intervenes with their conceited "we're right" attitude.

i have seen posts complaining about other countries not taking action. well IMO, the US takes too much action, and keeps putting their noses where it doesn't belong. by doing so, they continually piss of more and more of the other countries at us, which will only potentially lead to more and more attacks on the US, either terrorist or otherwise.

personally, i think n korea is doing something really stupid right now, but in all honesty, you really think they can't make nuclear weapons covertly? this whole thing is just for attention and should not be humored. it's impossible to watch over a whole country and oversee all their actions. at least with him ranting about it like he is, we at least know what he's doing and can keep an eye on it.

how would all you US citizens like it if the US started doing some kind of new weapons research and another country started telling us "no, you can't do that"? chances are, you'd think "f*ck you, it's our country and we can do whatever we want". however, when you see the US do it to another country, you expect them to think it's acceptable? eventually, the US is gonna push around the wrong country, and eventually one of those countries is gonna push back, and "big brother" is gonna be in for a big surprise when one day a country we finally push too far makes 9/11 look like a scratch on the knee.

With great power comes great responsibility.