The Bible is a work of Fiction

[JohnDoe1234]

Did you ever notice that scientist say we only use 10% of our brain capacity???

Thats an urban legend. Due to the fact that the brain is so highly specialized we only use 10% of it at any given time, but in point of fact we pretty much use all of it throughout the course of the day.

[Tock]

Did you ever notice that scientist say we only use 10% of our brain capacity???

I wonder if Adam had full capacity..

. . . and that rumor is not true.
Yes, a small percent is used for conscious stuff, but the rest is constantly used for regulating body functions. Ain't none of it sitting idle.
--Tock

[Tock]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

I like it . . .
Kinda reminds me of my favorite syllogism:

If Satan is the father of all evil, and
If God created Satan, then
God is the Grandfather of All Evil.

Yah, it's silly, but it still makes me laugh . .
--Tock

[PTbyJason]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

I don't have kids, but I can imagine this. If you have kids, sometimes you have to let them go through hard times on their own so they will learn from their mistakes. God allows evil and sin in this world. If it wasn't for the sin that I have gone through, I never would have turned to God. If there was no evil, you would have no reason to turn to God. Everything would be just fine. So suffering causes you to turn to God, which is what He wants us to do anyway. The worst experiences in my life has made me a better person. I think most people will say that. The times that you suffer the most extreme pain in your life, improves your life so much more in the end. So God allows those things to happen to strengthen our relationship with Him.

I read all of your posts about this, so what I typed may not all apply to what you just said, just a basic of everything you typed above this post.

[Cycleon]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

Your conclusion would be true if your statements were valid - that is not to say that they are necessarily untrue but rather that they have a wide latitude that needs to be defined. It is likely that you equate "goodness" with certain actions that you deem good or "evil" according to your perception and really, what is good in your perception is that which is pleasant - that view certainly may not be the same by an omipotent creator. The true falacy is that it removes choice (free will) from the equation - but the truth is that we only want the pleasant results of our own choices, not the bad.

A simple example will suffice - your young son is playing around the stove and although you have told him many times not to touch the heating element, with an impish smile he defiantly puts his finger toward it with you watching across the room - now, you could run across the room and stop him before he does or allow him his way - sure enough he does so and gets his finger burned (maybe understanding why you told him not to do that, maybe not) - and he wails and crys "daddy, why didnt you protect me?"

Now certainly from his perspective, the results of his action was evil, and in fact you allowed it to happen so how could you really love him? From your perspective, although you feel bad for his temporary hurt, the experience was good in that it taught him to avoid the stove and to obey your word. His perception is based upon the interests of a few moments and the feeling of pain that he has, your focus is on the totality of his entire lifetime.

Now you might say, well that is fine because he disobeyed - what about if he accidently touched it, or his bigger sister put his finger on it?

In the first case, actions are still a result of free choice, despite not understanding the consequences of that choice - God could deliver us from that a few times but if he always does it, then is there really any free choice? no different than you protect your child when they are young, catch them, pay for broken things, etc. But when they are older, you let them take the responsibility for their own actions, with the attendent costs that may come as well - that is part of free will.

In the second case, you are basically asking God to override the free will of everyone, including yourself presumably - who acts to hurt another person, intentionally or not. Thus we are back to the same example - do you always stop you daughter from burning your son? what if she really really wants to? How can you disallow her choice on one thing but not others - of course, her brother does not want that but he can only govern his own choices not hers - for in the end, each is responsible for the choices that they make - else how could God truly judge your actions if you could truly say "I had no choice"

Still people say, maybe I can understand that kind of thing for smaller stuff but what about 911? I believe that God has deflected many previous similar actions of his own soveriently and due to the prayers of people to keep this nation safe - this indeed gives him a "right" to act in our circumstances - yet even so, He cannot always override the results of our own continued, willfull actions, even those that are designed to hurt others - nor can he always invalidate the reprocussions of the mistakes of our rulers (whom we elect, after all).

Again, your definition of good, evil and free will are suspect from your exceedingly limited plane of perception (as is shared by us all) - Yet God is interested in that which is eternal - many times I may have prayed for someone else to be less of a pain, when God answered by working on me and my heart, not their outward actions - or when I prayed for something to happen and it may not have, only to find out that the end result was far better but could only be discerned as such several years later. THis is why it is critical that we have "faith" which is really the choice to subjegate our will to His best choice for us - even then, things are not guaranteed to be "pleasant" but best.

[floyd_turbo]

my bad, poor wording......all loving, is intended to mean morally perfect

ft-

[spywizard]

Moraly perfect means perfect judgment.. I do not have that capability... because i am self interested...

and there for will not apply a just judgment... Only God knows the heart of man..

There is only one way................. actually there is a second possibility... you and i may live to see the coming of the judgement.. then we will both know.. otherwise it will be after our deaths............

my bad, poor wording......all loving, is intended to mean morally perfect

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

In fact, the Bible declares that "God is Love" (I John 4:8).

[floyd_turbo]

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

[Tock]

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

Good point . . .
And if God created everything, why would He create fireants? Or Smallpox? Or Anthrax? Polio? Cancer?
Ain't much of a loving creator, if you ask me . . .
--Tock

[TheGame826]

Good point . . .
And if God created everything, why would He create fireants? Or Smallpox? Or Anthrax? Polio? Cancer?
Ain't much of a loving creator, if you ask me . . .
--Tock

Do they not serve a purpose? If not for cancer the world would be very much over populated and at our current state of technological development we (the population) would not be able to function.

I have a question for you just one simple question... when the wind blows you feel it against you. However you cannot see or touch or taste or smell the wind as it blows on you. Does this mean that the wind is not real and does not exist?

[Tock]

1) Do they not serve a purpose? If not for cancer the world would be very much over populated and at our current state of technological development we (the population) would not be able to function.

2) I have a question for you just one simple question... when the wind blows you feel it against you. However you cannot see or touch or taste or smell the wind as it blows on you. Does this mean that the wind is not real and does not exist?

1) Quite remarkable . . . it's not often I see a fundamentalist make the argument for evolutionary adaptive survival.
But since Jehovah finished Creation on the sixth day, all the nasty bugs would have been finished by then, including anthrax, cancer, polio, etc. In Adam and Eve's perfect world, those things would not have been needed. But nevertheless, they were around, which demonstrates that Jehovah had plans to torment humans right from the get-go.
Oh geez, this is too much fun . . .

2) True, you cannot see air. Nevertheless, it can be measured and examined under instruments like spectroscopes and barometers, combined with other chemicals, all sorts of things. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of science is aware of this. I'm gonna assume you got this little tid-bit from your preacher, who, I will venture to guess, most likely did not get a degree in physics.

Thanks for playing, Try again.
--Tock

[spywizard]

Did you ever have to punish someone???? after you did... did you still love them???

even though they did something that was wrong???


sin.. the choices that we make is what causes suffering..

Moses struck the stone and ordered the water to come forth.... that's not what God told him to do.. and for that the generation of jews that were lead out of Egypt died in the desert... as judgement.. punishment.. for thier hearts were not able to understand, or love and obey God..

Sin and disobedience is what seperates us from God... He got tired of trying to teach us, and so he sent Jesus, to teach us to love God, and to love one another.. also to fulfill the prophets.... Jesus was the sacrifice for our sins,

and just believing in Jesus is not the answer... for even satan know who the christ was.....

You have to believe that his sacrifice was sufficient to pay attonment for mankinds sin.. .............. notice the word Believe...??

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

[JohnDoe1234]

http://snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm here is the link to prove it.

[spywizard]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

http://snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm here is the link to prove it.

[JohnDoe1234]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

reguardless, I've heard it stated elsewhere before.

[Tock]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

Sorry bud, but psychologists are very much scientists. The discipline involves the methodical study of the mind, and they rely on the Scientific Method to test their results.

Being a shrink, he should know what he's talking about in this article . . .
-Tock

[JohnDoe1234]

http://snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm this one is about the story of David and the 24 hours of sun light.

[TheGame826]

Hey Jason, great posts throughout this whole thread. I read most of them and got alot of them. Also this thread gave me even more respect for you.

I have a question for you as well though, since you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the bible. Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

[PTbyJason]

Hey Jason, great posts throughout this whole thread. I read most of them and got alot of them. Also this thread gave me even more respect for you.

I have a question for you as well though, since you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the bible. Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

That I have not heard. From what I recall there were supposedly inconsistent accounts of his suicide, and I thought it predicted that one of his disciples would commit suicide. There is one verse saying he hung himself and another that his guts were all over the ground on the rocks. Obviously he hung himself and the tree (or whatever) broke and his guts spilled out. 2 different obvservations by 2 different people. I'm going to get tock a list of all of the prophecies come true about Jesus and I will be able to tell you a better answer at that point. I'll get back to you with more before I leave work today.

[TheGame826]

That I have not heard. From what I recall there were supposedly inconsistent accounts of his suicide, and I thought it predicted that one of his disciples would commit suicide. There is one verse saying he hung himself and another that his guts were all over the ground on the rocks. Obviously he hung himself and the tree (or whatever) broke and his guts spilled out. 2 different obvservations by 2 different people. I'm going to get tock a list of all of the prophecies come true about Jesus and I will be able to tell you a better answer at that point. I'll get back to you with more before I leave work today.

Yes I have not ever seen any thing about this in scripture either. I was just curious if there was any truth to this because in movies like the "7th Seal" they talked about his curse and how he could not die until Jesus returned to earth when all of the martyrs (not sure on the spelling) were gone or something along those lines. I havent watched the movie in a long while.

[Cycleon]

Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

No, that is nowhere in the bible or even in oral tradition of early church fathers that I am aware - more significantly, it violates the nature of God - ie, Judas's choice and the consequences for it.

[TheGame826]

No, that is nowhere in the bible or even in oral tradition of early church fathers that I am aware - more significantly, it violates the nature of God - ie, Judas's choice and the consequences for it.

good point.

[PTbyJason]

Part 2:

BEATEN WITH A ROD


Micah 5:1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 700 B.C. Mark 15:19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.

GIVEN VINEGAR AND GALL TO DRINK



Psalm 69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst. 1000 B.C.

Matthew 27:34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.

Matthew 27:48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink.

HANDS AND FEET NAILED

Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 1000 B.C.

John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

CRUSHED FOR OUR INIQUITIES

Isaiah 53:5-6 [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 700 B.C.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB*) I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures
*NAB=New American Bible (not NASB=New American Standard Bible)

SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF OTHERS



Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.

Isaiah 53:5-6 [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 700 B.C.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB) I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures

PIERCED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS



Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 700 B.C.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 500 B.C.

John 19:33-34; 36-37 [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [34] Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. [36] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," [37] and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

NO BONES BROKEN

Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 1000 B.C.

Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. 1000 B.C.

John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," It is important to realize that crucifixion victims' legs normally were broken. And yet, a thousand years before the Crucifixion of Jesus, King David foretold that the Messiah would die in an unusual way. See Forensic Pathology Report on Jesus.

SOLDIERS GAMBLE FOR HIS CLOTHES



Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. 1000 B.C.

Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

BRUTALLY KILLED

Isaiah 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 700 B.C. See all four Gospels.

ASSIGNED A GRAVE WITH THE WICKED



Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death 700 B.C. Crucifixion was normally reserved for criminals and people the Romans wanted to "make an example of". As a crucifixion victim, Jesus would have been assigned a grave (if any) with such people.

BURIED IN A RICH MAN'S TOMB



Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ... 700 B.C. Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

THE MESSIAH WOULD RETURN FROM THE DEAD



Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 700 B.C. Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

FAMILIAR WITH SUFFERING

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.



The Crucifixion of Jesus was not an anomoly in how people treated Him:

• 
  
  He was "run out of town" at several places.
  
  Mark 5:14-17 [14] Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. [15] When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. [16] Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon- possessed man--and told about the pigs as well. [17] Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.
  
• 
  
  People tried to stone Him.
  
  John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
  
• 
  
  Some Jewish leaders conspired to kill Him.
  
  John 7:1 After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life.
  
  Matthew 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
  
• 
  
  His own family thought He was crazy.
  
  Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
  
• 
  
  His brothers told Him to go to a festival, expecting He would be killed.
  
  John 7:1-3, 5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
  
• 
  
  His disciples abandoned Him.
  
• He was crucified.
  
  

[Tock]

Part 2:

to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea[/i][/b], so that your disciples may see the miracles you do." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.[/color]
[*]

His disciples abandoned Him.
[*]He was crucified.

[/list]

Cool. I got 'em printed, we'll see how well they hold up to Tock's all-seeing Eye of Scrutiny . . .

--Tock

[Farmer]

Really enjoying this debate Tock, you are speaking for myself as well...probably many others. I don't remember what post number but, you said something to the likeing of "I don't believe in 'heresay' reports, I do some research" that is EXACTLY how I feel and that is why I question this so much. I don't take anything at face value. Keep the debate GOING!!

Peace

Farmer

[Tock]

Really enjoying this debate Tock, you are speaking for myself as well...probably many others. I don't remember what post number but, you said something to the likeing of "I don't believe in 'heresay' reports, I do some research" that is EXACTLY how I feel and that is why I question this so much. I don't take anything at face value. Keep the debate GOING!!

Peace

Farmer

Glad to oblige . . .
My guess is that by the time this is over, both (or all) sides of this debate will have learned something . . . It's my hope, anyway. No use in debating something if all you do is scare the opposition away--someone's got to stay behind to pay for the beer and pizza afterwards . . .
Thanks again, and Take Care (and notes, if you like) . . .
--Tock

[Cycleon]

well, as long as its your own horn you are blowing Tock, I feel we are really making progress here

good luck on the barbershop btw!

[Billy_Bathgate]

Haha what a thread. Long one...

My thoughts....

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

2) Historically speaking, the Upanishads are older than the Bible. That wouldnt make sence would it? Maybe the Hindu's just wrote it down before the Jews did though, that is possible

3)Whats up with the Mormons? Why do they think there is stuff missing from the Bible if its so accurate? Why do some people argue about specific Hebrew-Greek-English translations (ie Moses having horns vs rays of lighting coming down with the commandments)? Leads me to believe that maybe it was transcripted correctly, but maybe not translated correctly. On that note, there are so many demoniations that obviously translation has a ton to do with it. That would lead me to believe God intends us to interpret our religions for ourselfs.

4) Why are other religions wrong? A christian says a buddhist is wrong, but yet vice versa. Doesnt anyone find anything silly going on? How can you prove what is yet to be proven? Actually, Christianiy, is VERY similar from Hinduism and Buddhism in certain ascpects. If you can step back and look at things objectively you can see it.


My point is, I dont really care if its fiction or not. Sure Im religious. I believe in a higher being. I dont think we popped out of complete empty space, I have trouble fathmoning that space reaches infinity, etc etc.

I was forced into Christianity. Had to goto a private school for 9 years, and Ill tell ya this was like Nazi Christianity. By the book strick as can be. Point is, a part of me just dislikes Christians. Not for that reason, but for this. So many people I know, to me, are ignorant. IT seems to be most Christians, again that I know of, are Christians becuase they were born into it, they were told its right, popularity, or geographical convienience. Does anyone think if the United States were predominately Buddhists and Christianity was more sparce than a Native American, that everyone would still be Christians anyways.... I sure doubt it.

The problem I have, again with people I know, cant step back from it and look at the big picture. Most Christians I know have no idea what Dharma is, or who Krishina was, or what Nirvana is etc. I notice a bit of arogance evolve and I dont know, what I call black sheep syndrome I guess.

Hell, I figure if God intended us to have so much controversiery over the Bible and different religions, it was for a purpose. That purpose was to educate ourselve and wisely follow our hearts. Not to follow blindly becuase of the above reasons I already mentioned. If he wanted us to know Christianity was the one and only way, I think there would be absolute proof and not all these questions. And dont tell me Satan is who Brahman, Ala, Budda, etc are all....

If I was to consider myself a religion. I guess I would be a Zen Buddhist/Christian. LMAO how do you like that? In seriousness, from the religoins I have studied in somewhat depth, it is the overall what I feel formyself is right. I know God knows this and as far as I concerned I feel much better inside than when I did as a blind Christian and didnt no dick about anything else.

Wanna know what I believe, theres a God. We were ultimately created from something. There is life after this world, wether it is in Heaven or reincarnation I guess we will all find out eventually. I believe Jesus died on the cross. I believe he was a man of the most highest spirituality (Son of God for christians, Nirvana for Buddhists..mean about the same thing in a way) and was sacrafised for mankind. I dont believe in following a bunch of hypcrites to church though. Its bad around here with that, I find it sacreligious and it doesnt do anything for me. I do belief the spirit is a very important and powerful part of us all. I do strive for a closer and stronger interspiritual relationship. I do believe in Karma.

Kinda a mix I guess....Ive never been happier though, so it suite me, which is what I think religion is all about anywyas. I dont think there is one righter than another. Think of it as a language to God. Do you think he would care if it was English, French, Spanish, Ebonics, or pig latin...no Its that you speak to him.

Now, dont all the Christians or anyone else come down on me. I am talking about the Christians I know locally!!! I dont know any of you like that so maybe none of you are like that, and Im glad.

The final on point topic, I think the Bible is a great book. 85% of my own moral code is founded on that. I dont agree with the way many people take some of the things (literal vs metaphorical). I do believe the men that wrote it were of higher spirituality as well. But, there is not 100% proof or guarantee of its origins.

[PTbyJason]

It would take a whole book to reply to everything you asked, so let me get specific questions from you and maybe myself or someone else can answer them one by one.

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

What proof would you like? Are we talking about New Testament or Old Testament? Do you want archaeology to back it up, ancient documents, other historical records besides the Bible, etc...? What events from the Bible do you want backed up?

2) Historically speaking, the Upanishads are older than the Bible. That wouldnt make sence would it? Maybe the Hindu's just wrote it down before the Jews did though, that is possible

I will admit that I am not familiar with the Upanishads. However, is there historical evidence of any type, that shows what they wrote down or believed in and any prophecies that they made that actually came true? The Bible lists tons of various prophecies about Jesus and the world that have or will come true.

3)Whats up with the Mormons? Why do they think there is stuff missing from the Bible if its so accurate? Why do some people argue about specific Hebrew-Greek-English translations (ie Moses having horns vs rays of lighting coming down with the commandments)? Leads me to believe that maybe it was transcripted correctly, but maybe not translated correctly. On that note, there are so many demoniations that obviously translation has a ton to do with it. That would lead me to believe God intends us to interpret our religions for ourselfs.

I personally see many things wrong with how Mormons came to be. The way in which "documents" discovered as well as the past of the people who discovered this new religion. The translation problem is one that exist because words that are Hebrew or Greek don't always correspond with English. One word in Hebrew could have 3 different interpretations in English or no translation into English. So a phrase could be translated more than one way just because of the way the languages are set up. An example would be "wine", I believe in the original Greek language wine was wine, however in English wine can be fermented or unfermented. Now when we are talking about the fermented vs. unfermented in English we could be talking about wine vs. grape juice. So that is why you see discrepencies in the translations.

4) Why are other religions wrong? A christian says a buddhist is wrong, but yet vice versa. Doesnt anyone find anything silly going on? How can you prove what is yet to be proven? Actually, Christianiy, is VERY similar from Hinduism and Buddhism in certain ascpects. If you can step back and look at things objectively you can see it.

I can go into as much detail as you would like on this, but for starters the time period that the events that were written down in each religion were signaficantly different which would have the potential to cause buddhist to be very off on the accuracy of their documents. You will find that Christianity was written down within just a few decades after the events took place and you will also find more copies of this evidence. For some reason buddhist waited much longer after the events took place (2 or 3 centuries I believe) before they began writing anything down. The longer you wait, the more likely things are bound to be off. You will also find fewer historical documents backing up buddhist. I have a feeling I could find some contradictions for you as well on what buddhist believe when compared to historical evidence. I may have to dive into that a little more now. Seems to be interesting.

I think you can read through this thread and see that most of us on here don't think things should be rammed down each other's throats. There are a lot of "Christians" out there that don't always follow God's will, and do force it on people or kids. Find what you believe, but constantly challenge that faith. When you have questions, find out the answers. No matter what you believe, I think trying to develop a stronger spiritual stength is always important. And if you don't challenge that on a consistent basis, you aren't improving on it. I'll be more than happy to find the answers to any specific questions you have if will help you increase your spirituality. I constantly have similar questions that you posted that pop in my head at times. As soon as they do, I go out and start buying books. You can't take the author of various books as the Gospel, but you can read the evidence and draw your own conclusion about things. So far everything has just strengthened my faith even more. There is more evidence of any type for Christianity than anything else I have ever discovered. I've explored different religions and have even been to a Mormon church because I was curious. I had a few close friends who were Mormon that invited me to come with them, so I did. But then I took everything in that I heard in the service. I went and read up on the origins of the religion some more, and based on everything I read and experienced, I came to my conclusions about it. Many people that are atheist think that Christians are just believing by blind faith. And that is true to a certain point because we can't comprehend everything the Bible says. However, we all have times of doubts and disbelief, and at that point we have to challenge those beliefs. Everything that I have challenged and taken the time to research, showed further proof of the Bible, God, and Jesus. There is nothing wrong with doubting the Word of God. We all go through that. But when you have doubts you challenge those doubts and find out the truth behind it all. I would say that every week (maybe every other week at times) I challenge something new in the Bible. Let's face it, the more you challenge and research something, the deeper understanding, knowledge, and faith you can put in something, right? How much time do you think atheist spend to try to find something to disprove the Bible? The more time atheists would spend challenging and researching the Bible, the more they would realize that the Bible has a lot more scientific proof than they ever realized.

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

What proof would you like? Are we talking about New Testament or Old Testament? Do you want archaeology to back it up, ancient documents, other historical records besides the Bible, etc...? What events from the Bible do you want backed up?

.

Well . . . I had posted a challenge to the Exodus story, noting that there is a conspicious lack of archeological verification (actually, none) to the Bible's account for (a) over half of Egypt's population leaving, (b) the utter destruction of the Egyptian Army, (c) the peculiar loss of the first born of every family in Egypt.

Back that one up, if you can . . .

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

Well . . . I had posted a challenge to the Exodus story, noting that there is a conspicious lack of archeological verification (actually, none) to the Bible's account for (a) over half of Egypt's population leaving, (b) the utter destruction of the Egyptian Army, (c) the peculiar loss of the first born of every family in Egypt.

Back that one up, if you can . . .

--Tock

Give me a few days before I hit on this, if that's ok. I have some research that I have to do on something else first, and I will come back to this one. I'll start gathering materials, but it will take me a good week to put it all together once I start.

[Tock]

Give me a few days before I hit on this, if that's ok. I have some research that I have to do on something else first, and I will come back to this one. I'll start gathering materials, but it will take me a good week to put it all together once I start.

Cool . . . Take your time, I've got a few oysters to shell in the meantime. like Taxes (eeeeek!) and a couple other things . . .
ttyl,
-Tock

[Cycleon]

Frankly I am of the opinion that the earth is older than 1 million years - I firmly believe in Creation but I also do not see how that precludes and evolutionary process of growth

[Billy_Bathgate]

Frankly I am of the opinion that the earth is older than 1 million years - I firmly believe in Creation but I also do not see how that precludes and evolutionary process of growth

The simple explanation that I have came across to that is this.

Genesis states the world was created in 7 days. The problem is taking that literal. Who are we to say what 1 day is to God. The Bible does say 1 second to us can be like a 1000 years to God. So, imagine that "one day" as it is written, metaphorically is meaning 1 day to God, which could be a million, or billion years.

Seems very logical to me for explaining dinosours not existing with modern man.

[Tock]

Seems very logical to me for explaining dinosours not existing with modern man.

Yah, but leaders in the Creation Research (at the Institute for Creation Research--they're on the web) business say they did . . . supposedly Adam and Eve lived about 6000 years ago, and they had dinosaurs living with 'em.
Crazy, but true. And they have to "proof," and lots of it, to back up thier allegations.
-Tock

[Cycleon]

exactly - the reality is that in the origional language it says that there was a "morning" and and "evening" - certainly not in the way we think of them as sunrise and set - the origional language denotes a beginning time and and ending time of a distinct period of time - day has the same relevance - in several places in the old testament the same word is used to refer to an epoch of time. Thus God had certain distinct periods with a beginning and an end wherein He accomplished His intention with this one we are in being the last.

there is also the idea of allegorical that is true as well - in one prophecy the 70 "weeks" was a literal 70years but the 7 weeks that were to follow were 7 time periods that were not necessarily based on calenders but rather on kingdoms.

[Cycleon]

I agree with some of what ICR states but just because they are Christian I do not agree with all - I simply do not hold with Ussherian dating nor do I think it has a single thing to do with Christianity to do so.

Besides, God, being what He is, is much more likely to have allowed a glorious creation to have evolved (with His assistance at just the critical points) over a time frame that seems enormous to us but is nothing to Him - with this being the final stage of the drama that He has prepared before the beginning of time as we understand it. I thiink that is much more glorifying to God than the idea that he sort of slammed all this together in 10,000 years - I mean, what is time to Him? whats the rush? all of it is an expression of His glory, even if the creatures and objects do not get that, He does it for Himself

[Tock]

I agree with some of what ICR states but just because they are Christian I do not agree with all - I simply do not hold with Ussherian dating nor do I think it has a single thing to do with Christianity to do so.

I would pay good money to watch a debate on this between you and the ICI people. Bet it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes of standing your ground before they'd denouce you for being a heretic . . .
--Tock

[Cycleon]

I would pay good money to watch a debate on this between you and the ICI people. Bet it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes of standing your ground before they'd denouce you for being a heretic . . .
--Tock

Fortunately I do not answer to them but rather the Master we both serve - again, while they are interesting, abiet almost tangential intellectual pursuits, they have little to do with my (or their) daily walk with God, nor my (or their) eternal future.