Eye-pokes in MMA

[Beetlegeuse]

If you saw this weekend's UFC Fight Night in which Belal Muhammad played Curly to Leon Edwards's Moe, ...



... you probably know what this thread is about.


What's your solution to the eye poke problem?

I happen to think that this weekend was a bad example and sets a bad precedent because before the eye poke happened, I noticed both fighters being too careless with their fingers. And there's an old saying, "bad news makes worse law." Because whenever people see some random human event they find disturbing they almost invariably get their panties about it and start shouting "Something must be done!" to prevent a recurrence. And the solutions offered often as not don't do a damn thing to get to the real cause.

The odd thing to me is that right after the UFC changed the rules when Mister Ronda Rousey (AKA Travis Browne) broke Matt Mitrone's orbital socket with an eye poke that didn't get called, Herb Dean used to sound like he had a tape recorder playing the message over and over during a fight, "Up or closed. Up or closed. Up or closed." Keep your fingers pointed at the ceiling or your fist closed, else I will deduct a point.

But I didn't hear him say it even once in the Edwards-Muhammad fight, despite the fact that the both of them were flicking their fingers around like they'd just been to 'Nails So Happy' and were helping the topcoat finish drying.

So now the UFC probably will have a rule change that odds are 50/50 won't reduce eye pokes in the least.

One thing I see in the MMA forums is talk of changing the gloves. Bellator did that in 2014, and they've had a dramatic decline in hand injuries but the last time I saw the stats it hadn't done a damn thing to the incidence of eye pokes.

And now Pride's gloves are all over the blogosphere. Apparently the former MMA promotion had gloves with a curve built in -- same as Bellator's -- but they covered more of the finger. But you can't IMHO make a glove that won't inhibit grappling that won't also allow the fighter to straighten his fingers, at least briefly. But all it takes is a quarter of a second to execute an eye poke. So if a fighter can straighten his fingers at least that long, you're still going to have eye pokes. It might reduce the incidence but I think not because the fighters are always going to have that instinct to use their straightened fingers as a sort of 'curb feeler.'

I think it was last September that Dana White commented that the UFC was looking at different gloves, and if would be great if they could come up with something truly effective (assuming that that's possible; the jury's still out). But I think this weekend sets a bad precedent because the referees largely have stopped warning fighters for behavior that could lead to an eye poke.

So I give Herb Dean as much credit for the way the headline fight turned out as Leon Edwards. Her was supposed to be in control and he wasn't.

[Hughinn]

If you saw this weekend's UFC Fight Night in which Belal Muhammad played Curly to Leon Edwards's Moe, ...



... you probably know what this thread is about.


What's your solution to the eye poke problem?

I happen to think that this weekend was a bad example and sets a bad precedent because before the eye poke happened, I noticed both fighters being too careless with their fingers. And there's an old saying, "bad news makes worse law." Because whenever people see some random human event they find disturbing they almost invariably get their panties about it and start shouting "Something must be done!" to prevent a recurrence. And the solutions offered often as not don't do a damn thing to get to the real cause.

The odd thing to me is that right after the UFC changed the rules when Mister Ronda Rousey (AKA Travis Browne) broke Matt Mitrone's orbital socket with an eye poke that didn't get called, Herb Dean used to sound like he had a tape recorder playing the message over and over during a fight, "Up or closed. Up or closed. Up or closed." Keep your fingers pointed at the ceiling or your fist closed, else I will deduct a point.

But I didn't hear him say it even once in the Edwards-Muhammad fight, despite the fact that the both of them were flicking their fingers around like they'd just been to 'Nails So Happy' and were helping the topcoat finish drying.

So now the UFC probably will have a rule change that odds are 50/50 won't reduce eye pokes in the least.

One thing I see in the MMA forums is talk of changing the gloves. Bellator did that in 2014, and they've had a dramatic decline in hand injuries but the last time I saw the stats it hadn't done a damn thing to the incidence of eye pokes.

And now Pride's gloves are all over the blogosphere. Apparently the former MMA promotion had gloves with a curve built in -- same as Bellator's -- but they covered more of the finger. But you can't IMHO make a glove that won't inhibit grappling that won't also allow the fighter to straighten his fingers, at least briefly. But all it takes is a quarter of a second to execute an eye poke. So if a fighter can straighten his fingers at least that long, you're still going to have eye pokes. It might reduce the incidence but I think not because the fighters are always going to have that instinct to use their straightened fingers as a sort of 'curb feeler.'

I think it was last September that Dana White commented that the UFC was looking at different gloves, and if would be great if they could come up with something truly effective (assuming that that's possible; the jury's still out). But I think this weekend sets a bad precedent because the referees largely have stopped warning fighters for behavior that could lead to an eye poke.

So I give Herb Dean as much credit for the way the headline fight turned out as Leon Edwards. Her was supposed to be in control and he wasn't.

I can say this much, new gloves would help alot.

The ufc regulation gloves hold your hands open. You can wrap them heavy on the outside to help, but they still force your hand open.

There are several other options, that I think would be better.

Ps, Jon jones is the master of eye pokes. Kamaru usman is the mater of fake eye pokes.

[Beetlegeuse]

Yeah, back when the rule was "the first poke is free" (no penalty until after the first poke), Jon Jones rarely missed an opportunity to take his 'free' eye poke.

[Beetlegeuse]

Bellator adoped new curved gloves in 2014 that were almost a straight knock-off uf Pride gloves.



At the time they said these were meant to reduce eye pokes but I can't find anything offering a before-and-after numerical comparison. I do recall articles a couple of years later stating Bellator's new gloves hadn't had much impact on eye pokes but they did have a dramatic reduction in broken hands, but I can't find a copy of that article now to prove the point because they're just background noise after the Edwards-Muhammad eye poke.

But regardless of what's happened to their "poke-stats," Bellator still manages to have high profile eye pokes, probably the most notable of which was when Ryan Bader poked Chieck Kongo at Bellator 226 in 2019 and Chieck couldn't continue.

Part of the problem is that no one keeps "punch stats" on eye pokes. Not just on pokes landed but also on blows thrown to no ill effect but with fingers in a potentially eye-poking position. There can't be any real progress unless they know the extent of the problem because there's no other way to measure improvement unless you have before/after poke-stats. And that starts with (but doesn't end with) counting all the times one fighter contacted another fighter's face with fingers in a dangerous position but that didn't get called.

Which happens a hell of a lot. After the Edwards-Muhammad fight, Daniel Cormier said that most fights have an eye poke in them, implying but not stating that almost every fight has an eye poke that doesn't get called. DC might have been being hyperbolic but he sees a lot of UFC fights and I trust him to at least be able to recognize that there's a lot of poking going on that no one gets called for. And apparently -- according to DC -- that is the case.

Fighters even have been eye-poked so badly that it obviously affected the course of the fight without getting called for it. In 2014, Mario Yamasaki (who else?) missed Urijah Faber poking Frinacisco Rivera so badly that he clearly lost focus and got submitted shortly thereafter. IIRC, Rivera also had to have a laser eye treatment to fix a cracked retina he got from the poke, and his career took a nose dive after that incident.

In 2016 (UFC Fight Night 81), Mister Ronda Rousey (travis browne) eye poked Matt Mitrione twice, the second so hard that he broke his orbital socket but no eye poke was called. Which was a significant factor in Mitrione taking advantage of free agency to move to Bellator.

And it isn't like this a new problem. Before there was Jon Jones, there was Chuck Liddell. The Ice Man had high-profile eye-pokes against Vernon White, Tito Ortiz and Randy Couture (among others). Couture attributed his loss in Couture-Liddell II to the fact that he was expecting to get poked but he let the anticipation get in his head and then got angry and lost his composure when it happened.

And I found articles online as far back as 2009 quoting Dana White talking about the UFC considering changing the gloves. But AFAIK, the gloves haven't changed a whit in all this time.

The UFC did make a rule change after the Mr. Rousey-Mitrione incident, giving the ref the authority to penalize a fighter for the first poke. And for a while after that new rule Herb Dean sounded like he had a tape recorder secreted in his dreads that constantly played a recording of him saying, "Up or closed. Up or closed. Up or closed." Keep your fingers pointed up or the fist closed or I will penalize you. But in time that dilligence faded. He was the ref for Edwards-Muhammad and I didn't hear him giving his "informal" caution even once.

Which highlights my point. The UFC's culture accepts all of the "almost" pokes as part of doing business. They only get motivated when a poke obviously impacts the outcome of a fight. And the promotion really doesn't give a rip until something happens that set the fans and the fighters both to unloading on them for failing to prevent it.

But if you got rid of all of the "almost" pokes, here would be no pokes left.



In the video above, Shane Fazen demonstrates that he can force his hand straight (all four fingers oriented in prime poking position) at will with the new curved Bellator glove. So in the heat of battle, fighters still can and will overpower the glove and threaten to poke their opponent's eye.

Shane also utters a single word that goes to the heart of the most effective solution: training.

As the old saying goes, you fight like you train, and if a fighter's coaches nagged the fuck out of him for not keeping his fingers under control when sparring, you'd see a lot fewer pokes in fights.

And the best way to see to it that the training staff condition their fighter to keep his fists clenched ALL THE TIME except when they intend using their fingers for something legal AND productive, is to hit them in the pocket. Put it in the fighter's contract that he is FORBIDDEN to pay his staff any part of the purse. All prize money goes into escrow. And the fighter's contract with the UFC (or Bellator) states how much he has agreed to pay his staff, so the staff gets NOTHING except from the prize money in escrow. And if their fighter gets penalized for almost poking or actually poking, the UFC only pays them half of what their contract with their fighter states they should get. And if their fighter gets DQ'd for a poke, they get bupkis. Sweet Fanny Adams. $0.

Then you'd have a whole team of coaches and trainers who stayed on the fighter's ass to keep his fingers tucked away.

I think they also should ban open-handed strikes. I don't recall ever having seen anyone using a "karate chop" or a ridge-hand blow or a spear-hand in a professional MMA match, so there's nothing lost if you ban them. Require fighters to keep their fists clenched unless parrying a strike, in the act of grasping at their opponent (but not anywhere close to the head), or with their hand already in contact with the opponent (again, not anywhere close to the head).

And no more warning shots. If a fighter throws a punch with so much as one finger wagging, and that blow is anywhere near the head, it costs a point. If he pokes an eye, he's DQ'd. Period.

But I don't expect to see any of that happen -- especially now that the UFC is owned by a company that would rather just milk the promotion for whatever they can rather than spending black money to improve it -- because if the promotion were willing to invest serious money in fixing the problem, it already would be fixed.

[SammyFave]

I totally agree with you that the recent eye poke incident in the UFC Fight Night was unfortunate, and it's definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. However, I also agree with your point that sometimes knee-jerk reactions to these events can lead to ineffective solutions that don't address the root cause of the problem. As for a solution, I think one possible option could be to make the use of open-fingered gloves, which can increase the risk of eye pokes, illegal in MMA fights. In doing so, you may also need the best starter boxing gloves. I think that for such a sport you need to protect yourself as much as possible in all situations.

[Cuz]

For me, this is something new, with regard to the fact that gloves could affect such an injury, and not dirty or strong blows

I totally agree with you that the recent eye poke incident in the UFC Fight Night was unfortunate, and it's definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. However, I also agree with your point that sometimes knee-jerk reactions to these events can lead to ineffective solutions that don't address the root cause of the problem. As for a solution, I think one possible option could be to make the use of open-fingered gloves, which can increase the risk of eye pokes, illegal in MMA fights.

The trolls are out its Friday