All the info ON PROHORMONES youll ever need

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Prohormone/steroid FAQ v. 1.0
by David Tolson
www.bulknutrition.com
last updated 3-17-04

This FAQ may be reproduced, as long as the entirety (including links) is included and it is not altered. For any questions, or to be notified of updates to the FAQ, email [email protected].

Note: In some places in this FAQ 1-testosterone or other steroids are grouped as under the category "prohormone." This is to avoid writing "prohormone/steroid" over and over, but the reader should take note that all prohormones are technically steroids, and many substances commonly referred to as "prohormones" do not require conversion to have an anabolic effect.

Contents

1.0: Basic questions
1.1: Where can I get some basic introductory information about prohormones before reading this FAQ?
1.2: After reading this FAQ, where can I go for more information on prohormones?
1.3: I heard prohormones have been banned. Is this true?
1.4: What is a "prosteroid?"
1.5: I'm under 21. Can I take prohormones?
1.6: What is the shelf-life of prohormones? How can I extend it?
1.7: How much weight/mass will I gain on my prohormone cycle?

2.0: Best prohormones/brands
2.1: Which prohormone is best?
2.2: Which brand is best?
2.3: Which prohormone products are best?
2.4: What do you think of this product by VPX/Biotest/Gaspari Nutrition? It is supposed to be 500% better without side effects.
2.5: What is the difference between 1-AD and oral 1-testosterone products? Which is better?
2.6: What is the best prohormone for the track athlete or other athlete more concerned with strength and endurance as opposed to muscle mass?
2.7: What is the best prohormone for losing fat?
2.8: What is the best prohormone for women?
2.9: What prohormone is best if I want to avoid side effects?
2.10: What prohormone gives the most gains with the least amount of side effects?
2.11: I weigh 140 lbs. and I am a "hard gainer." What prohormone should I use to help me gain weight and mass?
2.12: I just started working out. What prohormone should I use to help me reach my goals?

3.0: Delivery methods
3.1: Where can I find out about alternate delivery methods?
3.2: What delivery method is best?
3.3: Will transdermal delivery reduce bloat or other side effects?
3.4: What are the cypionate forms for?

4.0: How to take, how much to take
4.1: When should I take prohormones?
4.2: Should I take prohormones before working out? After?
4.3: Do I take prohormones on non-training days?
4.4: What dosage should I take?
4.5: I weigh 250 pounds, should I increase dosage?

5.0: Stacking
5.1: Can I stack 19-nordiol and 1-testosterone?
5.2: Should I take 1-AD or 1-testosterone along with M1T?
5.3: Product X contains 4-AD, 19-nor, 1-test, ZMA, MSM, etc.... What do you think?

6.0 Diet, training, and other supplements
6.1: How much weight training should I do on prohormones?
6.2: How much cardio should I do on prohormones?
6.3: What type of diet should I have on prohormones?
6.4: What type of diet should I have on prohormones if I am cutting?
6.5: What other supplements should I take on prohormones?
6.6: Should I take tribulus during my cycle?
6.7: Can I use Sytenhance along with prohormones?
6.8: Can I use ephedrine/caffeine alone with prohormones?
6.9: Can I take creatine along with prohormones?
6.10: Can I take whey protein along with prohormones?

7.0 Methyl-1-testosterone
7.1: I have never used prohormones or steroids before. How much methyl-1-test should I use and how long should I take it? Do I need to take anything else? Do I need to take anything afterwards?
7.2: Why shouldn't I use methyl-1-test if I have not used prohormones or steroids before? I have read a lot about it.
7.3: I usually don't respond to the recommend dosage of supplements. Should I start with a higher dosage?
7.4: How bad are the side effects from M1T?
7.5: When should I take methyl-1-test?
7.6: What can I do to protect my liver on M1T?
7.7: What can I do to prevent lethargy from M1T?
7.8: Why does stacking with 4-AD help with lethargy?
7.9: What other supplements should I take with M1T?
7.10: Can I take ephedrine/caffeine with M1T?
7.11: Will methyl-1-testosterone cause gyno? Do I need an anti-estrogen with methyl-1-testosterone?
7.12: Will methyl-1-testosterone cause hair loss?
7.13: Can I drink alcohol while on M1T? What about other drugs that are toxic to the liver?

8.0 Liver protection
8.1: Are liver protection/recovery supplements necessary on all prohormones/steroids?
8.2: I found a methyl-1-test product that says it doesn't cause liver toxicity. Is this possible?
8.3: What liver protection supplements should be taken, and how much?
8.4: What time of day should I take liver health supplements?
8.5: Do I take liver protection supplements before, during, or after my cycle?
8.6: If I take enough liver health supplements, will my liver be completely protected from the M1T?
8.7: Will liver protection supplements interfere with my gains?
8.8: Will the damage to my liver be permanent?

9.0 Side effects
9.1: Will the side effects go away when I am done with my cycle?
9.2: How do I avoid shutdown of natural testosterone production?
9.3: How likely am I to get gyno?
9.4: How can I prevent gyno?
9.5: How likely am I to lose my hair?
9.6: How can I prevent hair loss?
9.7: How can I prevent/reduce the possibility of BPH?
9.8: How can I prevent acne?
9.9: How can I prevent loss of libido?

10.0: Drug tests
10.1: Will prohormones show up on drug tests?
10.2: How long do prohormones stay in the system?
10.3: How can I pass a drug test?

11.0: Home-brewing/powders
11.1: How do I use bulk prohormone powders?
11.2: How much powder can I add to my Dermabolics product?
11.3: If I add in 5 grams of powder to the Transpor Matrix, what is the dose?
11.4: Can I add yohimbine, caffeine, or other powders that are not hormones to the Transport Matrix?
11.5: How much prohormone powder can I add to my Lipoderm? What about my Ab-Solved?
11.6: How do I make a cyclodextrin complex for sublingual/nasal delivery?

12.0 Cycling
12.1: What is the ideal cycle length?
12.2: How much time off should I take after my cycle?
12.3: How long into my cycle should I start seeing results?
12.4: How much of my gains will I lose after my cycle?
12.5: Do any prohormones require frontloading?
12.6: How long will my prohormone product last at the dosage I am taking?

13.0 Anti-estrogens
13.1: Should I use an anti-estrogen on cycle?
13.2: What is the best anti-estrogen to use on cycle?
13.3: Should I take formestane and 6-OXO? What about formestane and nolva? What about....
13.4: Should I take tribulus, ZMA, etc. during my cycle?
13.5: How much 6-OXO is in each capsule?
13.6: Are nolvadex and tamoxifen the same thing?
13.7: How often do I need to take my anti-estrogen?

14.0 Post-cycle therapy
14.1: Where can I get some basic information on anti-estrogens and post-cycle therapy?
14.2: I'm halfway through my cycle. Should I buy 6-OXO or nolva for post-cycle?
14.3: Assuming I only have access to legal products, what should I use for PCT?
14.4: Should I use formestane post-cycle?
14.5: One person says to use nolva post cycle, another says to use 6-OXO. I'm confused.
14.6: Is ZMA sufficient for post-cycle? Tribulus?
14.7: If I take an anti-estrogen during my cycle do I still need one post-cycle?
14.8: How long should PCT last?
14.9: How long after my cycle should I start PCT?
14.10: Can I start another cycle immediately after PCT?
14.11: I don't think I am shut down. Should I still do PCT?
14.12: Should I taper off the prohormone at the end of the cycle to help with recovery?
14.13: How should I train during PCT?
14.14: How should I eat during PCT?
14.15: What dosage of nolva should I use?


1.0: Basic questions

1.1: Where can I get some basic introductory information about prohormones before reading this FAQ?

Introduction to Prohormones: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=37
Introduction to Prohormones, Part II: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=75

1.2: After reading this FAQ, where can I go for more information on prohormones?

At the bottom of the Introduction to Prohormones articles, you can find many links for further information.

Another prohormone FAQ can be found here: http://forums.bulknutrition.com/?showtopic=26

Also, there are many articles on specific prohormones here: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articles=1

1.3: I heard prohormones have been banned. Is this true?

No. A single prohormone, androstenedione, has been taken off the market. It is likely that more are soon to come, but it is impossible to tell exactly when. Some companies are taking their prohormone products off the shelves, but this is solely a marketing decision made by the companies. Prohormone products will still be available in various places until they are explicitly banned by the government.

1.4: What is a "prosteroid?"

It is a word that some companies and individuals use in place of "steroid." There are no difference between these substances and anabolic steroids save their legal status.

1.5: I'm under 21. Can I take prohormones?

No. Those under the age of 21 should not use prohormones, and there are many reasons given for this, some real and some imagined. Many of the arguments given for why younger people should not take prohormones are based on very bad science. These scare tactics and faulty arguments are partially understandable, since the main reasons younger people shouldn't use prohormones deal with issues such as responsibility and experience, and younger people tend to not listen to these reasons. All of the reasons not to use prohormones become amplified the younger you are, for example the risks are much greater under the age of 18. Some go so far as to say that you should not use prohormones if you are less than 25.

1.6: What is the shelf-life of prohormones? How can I extend it?

The answer to this question is not well known. Most prohormones probably have a shelf-life of 2-3 years, while some will degrade more quickly than others. If you plan on stocking up on prohormones, one of the best options is to purchase them vacuum sealed. They should also be kept in a cool dark place.

To buy vacuum sealed prohormones and supplements, see: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=694

1.7: How much weight/mass will I gain on my prohormone cycle?

This is impossible to tell, even knowing specifics. Different people will have different reactions. If you have planned your cycle carefully and diet and training are in order you can expect to gain at least a few pounds of muscle mass. But the only way to really answer this question is by running the cycle.

2.0: Best prohormones/brands

2.1: Which prohormone is best?

There is no best prohormone. It depends on your goals, which side effects you think you can tolerate most easily, how much money you want to spend, and other factors. As a general rule of thumb, you want to start with a 1-AD/4-AD or 1-testosterone/4-AD stack. Opinions on this will vary from person to person.

2.2: Which brand is best?

In general, whichever is least expensive. Some brands have a consistent reputation of quality and low prices without deceptive advertising. The brands I recommend are:

1Fast400
Dermabolics
PK Enterprises
Ergopharm
Designer Supplements

2.3: Which prohormone products are best?

Transdermal products:
Any Dermabolics product

Oral products:
1,4-andro: 1Fast400 1,4 Andro
19-nordiol: Ergopharm Norandrodiol Select 300
1-AD: Ergopharm 1-AD
4-AD: Ergopharm Androdiol Select 300
1-test: Nutrex 1-TU
Methyl-1-test: Underground Labs M1T

2.4: What do you think of this product by VPX/Biotest/Gaspari Nutrition? It is supposed to be 500% better without side effects.

This product is overpriced and overhyped and the ingredient(s) are usually no different than those in less expensive products. Furthermore, the advertising is very deceptive, so make sure to check any of the claims made with other sources.

2.5: What is the difference between 1-AD and oral 1-testosterone products? Which is better?

1-AD is a prohormone to 1-testosterone, so the two are pretty much interchangeable. I recommend 1-AD because it has a longer history of positive feedback.

2.6: What is the best prohormone for the track athlete or other athlete more concerned with strength and endurance as opposed to muscle mass?

The top choices are 1,4-andro and DHT precursors. 1-testosterone and smaller amounts of 4-AD are also common. Prohormones that are androgenic and don't cause much water weight gain are ideal for these circumstances.

2.7: What is the best prohormone for losing fat?

The popular choices are similar to those mentioned above. 1-testosterone and either 1,4-andro or a small amount of 4-AD is a good choice.

2.8: What is the best prohormone for women?

A 19-nor prohormone should be used for starters because it is the least androgenic. If desired results are not achieved, 1,4-andro can be used, but it is more likely to result in androgenic side effects.

2.9: What prohormone is best if I want to avoid side effects?

The prohormones just mentioned, 19-nor and 1,4-andro.

2.10: What prohormone gives the most gains with the least amount of side effects?

As a general rule, the more effective the prohormone is, the more side effects it will cause. For good gains, sacrifices must be made, it just depends on how far you want to go. As mentioned above, 1-AD or 1-test along with 4-AD is about as good as it gets in terms of gains to side effects ratio.

2.11: I weigh 140 lbs. and I am a "hard gainer." What prohormone should I use to help me gain weight and mass?

With proper diet and training, anyone can gain weight and muscle without prohormones. While there is a point where it gets much more difficult (often called the "genetic limit,") most people who ask this question are not even close to it. The first important diet rule for gaining weight is to eat much more food than you are used to. Even on prohormones, significant gains cannot be made without increasing caloric intake. It is important to learn how to optimize diet and training before using prohormones.

2.12: I just started working out. What prohormone should I use to help me reach my goals?

For the reasons given above, you should not use prohormones until you have been training for at least a year, and preferably two or more. Although many people want immediate changes in body composition and jump into everything at once, this often results in injury and/or reliance on prohormones without the necessary knowledge of other important factors that comes with experience.

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3.0: Delivery methods

3.1: Where can I find out about alternate delivery methods?

Transdermal Prohormone FAQ: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=52
Sublingual and Intranasal Information: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=37

3.2: What delivery method is best?

Transdermal delivery is the most effective and least expensive (other than injection of course). Many people prefer orals because of convenience. Sublingual and intranasal delivery make the prohormone highly bioavailable but only increase levels in the bloodstream for a short period of time; these methods are ideal for pre-workout use.

3.3: Will transdermal delivery reduce bloat or other side effects?

No. The side effects are caused by the prohormone and not the delivery method.

3.4: What are the cypionate forms for?

These are not ideal for transdermal, oral, sublingual, or nasal delivery. If you are unfamiliar with them, just use the standard versions.

4.0: How to take, how much to take

4.1: When should I take prohormones?

Transdermals should be used twice a daily as close to twelve hours apart as possible. Orals should be taken 3-4 times daily, take the total number of pills you are taking and divide it up into 3-4 roughly equal doses. Prohormones should be taken with food, preferably food that contains fat.

4.2: Should I take prohormones before working out? After?

If possible schedule one of your doses prior to working out. If not, afterwards. This is not imperative.

4.3: Do I take prohormones on non-training days?

Yes.

4.4: What dosage should I take?

If you are new to prohormones use the dosage listed on the bottle, you can use less if you would like to be cautious. From there, you should get an idea of what dose you want to use on your next cycle.

4.5: I weigh 250 pounds, should I increase dosage?

Yes, it will probably take more to have an equivalent effect, so increase dosage accordingly if your body weight is significantly higher than that of the average individual.

5.0: Stacking

5.1: Can I stack 19-nordiol and 1-testosterone ?

This is not a good stack, and it doesn't make much sense. 19-nordiol is usually used by those who want to avoid androgenic side effects and 1-testosterone is androgenic. This stack will also significantly reduce libido. If you are willing to take 1-test, the gains you get from 19-nordiol will pale in comparison. It is better to take 1-test alone or 1-test with 1,4-andro or 4-AD.

5.2: Should I take 1-AD or 1-testosterone along with M1T?

This stack is redundant since these compounds are similar in activity but M1T is more potent. There is nothing wrong with this stack, but there is no particular reason to use these substances together as they do not complement each other in any way.

5.3: Product X contains 4-AD, 19-nor, 1-test, ZMA, MSM, etc.... What do you think?

All the extra ingredients are just for show. Instead of making buying decisions based on the product, make them based on the prohormones. First research which prohormones you want to take. Then buy the products that contain these ingredients, not a lot of extraneous ones.

6.0 Diet, training, and other supplements

6.1: How much weight training should I do on prohormones?

Increase the frequency and/or volume of training. How much is up to you. About one and a half times as much training as you normally do is a good rule of thumb, although you may be able to do more depending on your normal training regimen, which prohormones you are on, and the dosage. As always, listen to your body and give it rest if you think it needs it.

6.2: How much cardio should I do on prohormones?

The same amount that you would normally do.

6.3: What type of diet should I have on prohormones?

Unless you are cutting (see below), you will get the best results if you increase your daily caloric intake by 500-1000 calories. Other than that, follow the same basic rules (high protein, high amounts of EFA's, etc).

6.4: What type of diet should I have on prohormones if I am cutting?

Use the same cutting diet you would normally use.

6.5: What other supplements should I take on prohormones?

None are necessary, although liver protection supplements are strongly recommended if you are taking a methylated prohormone/steroid , and you may want to take other supplements to alleviate or reduce side effects (see the side effects section).

6.6: Should I take tribulus during my cycle?

No, unless you are using it as a libido enhancer. If tribulus does have an effect, it will be negligible compared to that of prohormones. If you feel that it is necessary, there is no reason why it should hurt.

For more information on tribulus, see: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=52

6.7: Can I use Sytenhance along with prohormones?

Yes, the two can be used in conjunction.

6.8: Can I use ephedrine/caffeine alone with prohormones?

Yes, although this combination is best avoided if you have a history of high blood pressure since both can increase blood pressure.

6.9: Can I take creatine along with prohormones?

Yes, this is advisable.

6.10: Can I take whey protein along with prohormones?

Yes, this is advisable.

7.0 Methyl-1-testosterone

7.1: I have never used prohormones or steroids before. How much methyl-1-test should I use and how long should I take it? Do I need to take anything else? Do I need to take anything afterwards?

You should not take methyl-1-test if you have not used prohormones or steroids before. Methyl-1-test is for experienced users. Do not take it unless you have been using anabolics for six months minimum.

7.2: Why shouldn't I use methyl-1-test if I have not used prohormones or steroids before? I have read a lot about it.

Although it is definitely a good idea to do plenty of reading before taking methyl-1-test, this can not make up for experience. There are many things that people will learn on their first few cycles both about how they react to these compounds and how to best use them. Methyl-1-testosterone is a potent steroid, and it is generally not advisable to use the most potent compounds first. If you make mistakes with one of the weaker prohormones, they are much more forgiving than M1T is.

7.3: I usually don't respond to the recommend dosage of supplements. Should I start with a higher dosage?

No. Start with 10 mg at most, and use this for at least a week before increasing dosage. Increase dosage by 5-10 mg per week at most. It is important to note that this is not simply a "supplement," nor is it simply a "prohormone." Even experienced steroid users may get good gains in the 10-20 mg range. This is not a standard disclaimer. The dosage should only be increased if you are tolerating the side effects and are not happy with the results.

7.4: How bad are the side effects from M1T?

This depends on the person. Some people find it intolerable, others find that it has very few side effects. It is impossible to predict how an individual will react to it until they try it. Suffice to say that the side effects are on average greater than any prohormone or 1-test.

7.5: When should I take methyl-1-test?

It can be taken either once daily or spread throughout the day. In theory, it should work better if dosed multiple times daily, but feedback hasn't been much different between the two methods. If lethargy is a significant problem, taking a single dose before bed may help.

7.6: What can I do to protect my liver on M1T?

See the next section of the FAQ.

7.7: What can I do to prevent lethargy from M1T?

Stack it with 4-AD, preferably transdermal. Orally, use 300 mg 4-AD for every 5 mg M1T, and transdermally, use around 100 mg for every 5 mg M1T. This amount can be increased if desired. Additionally, stimulants such as ephedrine and caffeine can help reduce lethargy. For something that doesn't cause as much of a crash, try L-tyrosine.

7.8: Why does stacking with 4-AD help with lethargy?

M1T causes natural levels of testosterone and estrogen to dramatically drop. 4-AD will provide an exogenous source of these hormones, reducing the side effects related to their decrease. There may be other reasons why M1T causes lethargy, but stacking with 4-AD should still be beneficial.

7.9: What other supplements should I take with M1T?

Liver protection supplements are a must, and 4-AD is recommended (although it is not necessary) to reduce side effects. Standard supplements such as creatine and whey protein will help with gains.

7.10: Can I take ephedrine/caffeine with M1T?

Yes, although this combination is best avoided if you have a history of high blood pressure since both can increase blood pressure.

7.11: Will methyl-1-testosterone cause gyno? Do I need an anti-estrogen with methyl-1-testosterone?

The answer to both is no. Methyl-1-testosterone does not aromatize and using it will decrease levels of testosterone in the body, and that is the main substrate for estrogen, so estrogen levels will be lower than normal.

7.12: Will methyl-1-testosterone cause hair loss?

On paper, M1T is much more anabolic than androgenic. It is less likely to lead to hair loss than most other prohormones.

7.13: Can I drink alcohol while on M1T? What about other drugs that are toxic to the liver?

No. Alcohol and other recreational drugs or any prescription drug you are unsure about should be avoided while on M1T. Alcohol is very hard on the liver and the body, so is methyl-1-test. If you cannot avoid this then you should not be using methyl-1-test or any other methylated prohormone.

8.0 Liver protection

8.1: Are liver protection/recovery supplements necessary on all prohormones/steroids?

It is essential to use liver health supplements on any methylated prohormone or steroid. They are not necessary on other prohormones, although they won't hurt.

8.2: I found a methyl-1-test product that says it doesn't cause liver toxicity. Is this possible?

No. Even if you injected it it would be hard on the liver, although not as much.

8.3: What liver protection supplements should be taken, and how much?

There are many liver protection supplements you can take, and there is no real limit on the variety, as each one you add in may be of further benefit. At least a few of the more potent ones are necessary. Milk thistle and N-acetyl-cysteine are two of the most commonly recommended. Here is a list of some of the liver protection supplements that can be used, along with daily dosages:

Milk thistle, providing 300-1000 mg silymarin or more
N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC), 500-1500 mg or more
Alpha lipoic acid, 300-1200 mg
Curcumin, 200-1500 mg
Acetyl-L-carnitine or L-carnitine, 1-4 g
Taurine, 1-4 g
Rhodiola, 100-500 mg
Green tea, providing 200-1000 mg EGCG
Lecithin, 1-2 tablespoons

Highly recommended liver protection supplements:
Pro Liver: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=960
Now Super Antioxidants: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=609
Now Vit-Min 75+ (contains high amounts of antioxidant vitamins): http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=483

It is also important to have a healthy diet.

8.4: What time of day should I take liver health supplements?

Follow the label recommendations, or take them 2-3 times daily.

8.5: Do I take liver protection supplements before, during, or after my cycle?

Liver protection supplements should be taken during the cycle and after the cycle during PCT. Before the cycle is not necessary, although it couldn't hurt.

8.6: If I take enough liver health supplements, will my liver be completely protected from the M1T?

Unlikely. They are meant to help prevent damage, and all of the other normal precautions should still be taken.

8.7: Will liver protection supplements interfere with my gains?

There is no evidence to support this, and it is not likely.

8.8: Will the damage to my liver be permanent?

Highly unlikely. The liver is a very resilient organ, it should recover fully after the cycle is over. This does not mean that you should press your luck.

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9.0 Side effects

9.1: Will the side effects go away when I am done with my cycle?

This depends on the side effect, but for the most part, yes. Loss of libido, testicular shrinkage, psychological effects, acne, and so on will go away once the cycle is over. If gyno develops, it may not go away. Hair that is lost may not grow back.

9.2: How do I avoid shutdown of natural testosterone production?

You don't. That is, unless you have access to HCG , which is a prescription drug that may be of benefit. Natural shutdown (and after a few weeks, testicular shrinkage) will occur on any hormone cycle.

9.3: How likely am I to get gyno?

Not likely at all. Some people are more prone to it than others. People fear this side effect much more than is warranted.

9.4: How can I prevent gyno?

If gyno is a concern, the most sensible option is to use prohormones that aren't estrogenic, like 1-test. If you are using a compound that aromatizes or is estrogenic, keep some formestane (such as E-Form) or nolvadex on-hand and begin using it if you think gyno is developing. For more information, see the anti-estrogen section of the FAQ.

9.5: How likely am I to lose my hair?

Hair loss is a concern if you use androgenic compounds on a regular basis for a long period of time. One short cycle will not cause it. Some people are prone to hair loss while others are not.

9.6: How can I prevent hair loss?

The best option is to use compounds that are not very androgenic, such as 19-nor and 1,4-andro. DHT precursors will be hardest on the hair. Taking finasteride (Proscar, Propecia) regularly will help prevent hair loss in general. Prescription topical anti-androgens will also help, as will Nizoral shampoo. Saw palmetto or other supplements are unlikely to make a difference.

9.7: How can I prevent/reduce the possibility of BPH?

Saw palmetto, finasteride, rye pollen extract.

9.8: How can I prevent acne?

Many people report good results from high doses of vitamin B5. Guggul extract may also help.

9.9: How can I prevent loss of libido?

Stack whatever you are using with 4-AD. Supplements such as yohimbine and arginine may also be of help.

10.0: Drug tests

10.1: Will prohormones show up on drug tests?

Prohormones will not show up on standard drug tests such as employment tests. Some prohormones will cause positives on tests for anabolic steroids , and many will cause positives on drug tests by athletic organizations that specifically ban prohormones. The ones that are most likely to lead to a positive test are precursors to illegal anabolic steroids such as 1,4-andro, 19-nordiol, 4-AD, DHT precursors, and the methylated versions of any of these. Methyl-1-testosterone, 1-AD, and 1-testosterone are unlikely to show up on a drug test.

10.2: How long do prohormones stay in the system?

It depends on the substance. Most prohormones, such as 1-AD/1-test and 4-AD, will probably only be detectable for 3-4 days. However, some, such as 19-nordiol, may be detectable for months. It is a good idea to cease use of any prohormone/steroid at least a month prior to the test to be on the safe side.

10.3: How can I pass a drug test?

Common methods include high water intake combined with diuretics, along with vitamin B complex and creatine to mask the unusually high water intake. The best option is to tell the organization doing the testing that you are taking a legal substance that may cause a false positive and specifically name the substance.

11.0: Home-brewing/powders

11.1: How do I use bulk prohormone powders?

They can be used in multiple ways.

A. Added into the Dermabolics Transport Matrix and used as a transdermal. This product can be found here: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?manufacturers_id=86

B. Mixed in with a beverage at the appropriate dose (to find the dose, just look at the dose for a similar product). The amount per quarter teaspoon can is usually indicated. A good scale is also a good investment. Scales can be found here: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?cPath=115

C. They can be put into capsules easily using a Cap-M-Quik and empty capsules. The Cap-M-Quik is easy to use, and with a little practice, 50 capsules can be made per 5-10 minutes. The 00 capsules are the best for the money from a pure volume standpoint, but if you want a lesser amount per capsule size 0 capsules can be used. The amount of hormone per capsule can be altered by mixing in a filler such as maltodextrin or dextrose prior to capping. Just take a known amount of prohormone and a known amount of filler, put them in a container and shake thoroughly, cap all of the powder, and then divide the original amount of hormone powder by the number of capsules you ended up with, and that is the amount per capsule. Using size 0 capsules and a 50/50 mix, you should end up with 200-400 mg of the active ingredient per cap. For a Cap-M-Quik and empty capsules: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?cPath=90

D. An oral solution can be made. The ideal solvent will depend on the powder you are using. Add a known amount of powder to a known amount of solvent, and then you will know the dosage per mL. You will also need an oral syringe for accurate dosing.

11.2: How much powder can I add to my Dermabolics product?

The Dermabolics Matrix can fit 7 grams of prohormone powder in it. Sometimes it can fit more. Here are the amounts of powders that can definitely fit in various products:

1: 4 grams
4Derm: 1 gram
E-Form: 4 grams
NorDerm: 1 gram
S1+: Already saturated

For more information on this see the Transdermal Prohormone FAQ (see section 3:1).

11.3: If I add in 5 grams of powder to the Transpor Matrix, what is the dose?

However much powder is in the bottle, divide that by 30, and that is the amount per 5 sprays.

11.4: Can I add yohimbine, caffeine, or other powders that are not hormones to the Transport Matrix?

No. It is designed for hormone powders only. It would probably not effectively deliver these compounds.

11.5: How much prohormone powder can I add to my Lipoderm? What about my Ab-Solved?

These products are meant for local delivery so adding prohormones is pretty pointless unless you are trying to delivery them locally. Lipoderm will not deliver hormone powders effectively, Lipoderm Ultra might but is already pretty saturated. Ab-Solved could probably fit 3-4 grams. If you are interested in targeted hormone delivery, I recommend checking out Sytenhance.

11.6: How do I make a cyclodextrin complex for sublingual/nasal delivery?

See the link near the bottom of this article: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=37

12.0 Cycling

12.1: What is the ideal cycle length?

Opinions on this vary. Some say two weeks, some say four, some say twelve. Prohormone cycles are usually shorter than steroid cycles traditionally are. Cycles should be limited to 4-8 weeks unless you have HCG. 3-4 cycles of two weeks on, two weeks off followed by a more extended break of a few months have become popular. There is no ideal cycle length, so it is best for the individual to experiment for themselves to see which they prefer, starting with a two or four week cycle, then trying the other method the next time, and then going from there.

12.2: How much time off should I take after my cycle?

Including PCT, the time off should be at least as long as the cycle was, and preferably one and a half times as long as the cycle was.

12.3: How long into my cycle should I start seeing results?

It depends on the compound. It usually takes 2-3 weeks for results to become apparent. With some compounds, especially methyls, an immediate effect is noticeable. Be patient, and the results will come.

12.4: How much of my gains will I lose after my cycle?

Assuming you use proper PCT, you should retain most if not all of your gains. On some substances, you may have gained a lot of water weight on your cycle which you will lose, but you are not losing muscle. However, if you are well beyond your "genetic limit" because of prohormones or steroid use , it will become harder to keep the gains.

12.5: Do any prohormones require frontloading?

No, all prohormones, even 1,4-andro, have short half-lives. (Boldenone undecylenate has a long half-life, but 1,4-andro does not convert to this compound, it just converts to boldenone).

12.6: How long will my prohormone product last at the dosage I am taking?

Divide the number of capsules/sprays per bottle by the amount you are using daily. This will tell you how long each bottle will last.

13.0 Anti-estrogens

13.1: Should I use an anti-estrogen on cycle?

If you are concerned about too many estrogenic effects, simply don't use a prohormone that aromatizes. However, estrogen can have anabolic benefit, so anti-estrogens are best only used when needed during a cycle. Anti-estrogens should be kept on hand in case excessive estrogenic effects occur on a cycle of an aromatizing compound. Anti-estrogens are primarily used if the bloat is getting to be too much or signs of gyno (itchy/puffy nipples) are appearing.

13.2: What is the best anti-estrogen to use on cycle?

As far as legal supplements, formestane is the best choice. E-Form is a good transdermal formestane product. Nolva is a good option if it is available. As far as aromatase inhibitors, 6-OXO will also work, but formestane is the one recommended by most for on-cycle use. Formestane converts to 4-OHT, an anabolic substance with few side effects.

13.3: Should I take formestane and 6-OXO? What about formestane and nolva? What about....

Taking more than one anti-estrogen on cycle is generally redundant (although it is not going to be harmful); if you feel the need for additional effect, just raise the dosage of the one you are using.

13.4: Should I take tribulus, ZMA, etc. during my cycle?

No, there is no reason for these supplements. Tribulus and other herbal supplements are not likely to have a significant impact on hormone levels.

13.5: How much 6-OXO is in each capsule?

100 mg.

13.6: Are nolvadex and tamoxifen the same thing?

Yes.

13.7: How often do I need to take my anti-estrogen?

The effect of both aromatase inhibitors (6-OXO/formestane) and SERMs (clomid/nolva) are long-lived, so once-daily dosing is all that is necessary. The time of day is not a major issue, although some recommend before bed.

14.0 Post-cycle therapy

14.1: Where can I get some basic information on anti-estrogens and post-cycle therapy?

Start by reading this article: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=54

14.2: I'm halfway through my cycle. Should I buy 6-OXO or nolva for post-cycle?

You should have everything you are going to need during and after your cycle BEFORE you start your cycle.

14.3: Assuming I only have access to legal products, what should I use for PCT?

6-OXO.

14.4: Should I use formestane post-cycle?

No. Formestane converts to an active steroid, and this could further shutdown.

14.5: One person says to use nolva post cycle, another says to use 6-OXO. I'm confused.

So is everyone else. The fact of the matter is that this is something that very knowledgeable people have diverging opinions on. I personally think that nolva is a better option. But both sides agree that either substance is of benefit. If in doubt, try one on one cycle, then the other on the next, and use whichever you felt worked better. If you can't decide, just alternate between the two indefinitely.

14.6: Is ZMA sufficient for post-cycle? Tribulus?

No, these compounds will do next to nothing. There is no evidence that zinc is a rate-limiting factor in post-cycle recovery, or that it signals increased testosterone production if there is no deficiency. The mechanism of action of tribulus is not well known, but one of the possibilities is that the active ingredient converts to DHEA; this would introduce an exogenous hormone into the body and further shutdown. The fact of the matter is, you must use either a strong aromatase inhibitor or a SERM post-cycle.

14.7: If I take an anti-estrogen during my cycle do I still need one post-cycle?

Yes, and at the same dose and length of time that you would normally use it.

14.8: How long should PCT last?

For shorter cycles (2-4 weeks), PCT should last as long as the cycle was. For longer cycles, one half to three fourths of the cycle length is acceptable, although some still recommend spending longer periods of time on PCT.

14.9: How long after my cycle should I start PCT?

The day after you take your last prohormone dose.

14.10: Can I start another cycle immediately after PCT?

You can, but it is generally recommended that you take a break before starting another cycle.

14.11: I don't think I am shut down. Should I still do PCT?

There is no good way to tell if you are shut down short of blood tests. If you have used any hormone, for any length of time, you should do PCT.

14.12: Should I taper off the prohormone at the end of the cycle to help with recovery?

This won't have much of an effect. Although small amounts of hormones will not shut down the HPTA as much, the exact point where this happens is not known, and it is likely to be with only a very small dose. It is best to run the same dose throughout your cycle, then start PCT immediately afterwards.

14.13: How should I train during PCT?

Reduced training volume is desirable. If the cycle was short, it may not be necessary.

14.14: How should I eat during PCT?

Maintenance calories or above if possible.

14.15: What dosage of nolva should I use?

Standard starting dosage is 40 mg, although some use higher doses (60-80 mg) for a few days to start with. Use 40 mg for the first half of PCT, and 20 mg for the second half.

[LM1332]

Transdermal Prohormone FAQ
By David Tolson

Contents

1. Transdermal basics

Q: What is transdermal delivery?
Q: Why is transdermal administration of prohormones superior to oral administration?
Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of transdermal administration of prohormones when compared to sublingual/nasal administration?
Q: If I apply a transdermal hormone to a certain muscle group, does it increase strength in that particular muscle group?
Q: Should transdermal prohormones be cycled differently than oral prohormones?
Q: What are the dosages for transdermally administered hormones?

2. Application tips

Q: When, where and how should transdermals be applied?
Q: After applying the transdermal, should I wait before working out, showering, or swimming?
Q: Should I avoid contact with other people in the area of application?
Q: My transdermal product is resulting in rash/skin irritation. Is this normal? How do I avoid this?

3. Homebrewing

Q: Can I add more prohormones to a transdermal prohormone product?
Q: How do I make my own transdermal prohormone?
Q: I am using the Dermabolics carrier. Can adding DMSO increase the efficacy of my transdermal prohormone?

4. Miscellaneous

Q: Can transdermal prohormones be dosed more often than two times daily?
Q: Is it acceptable to use transdermal prohormones in conjunction with topical fat loss products?
Q: Can transdermal prohormones be used along with oral prohormones?
Q: What is the shelf life of transdermal prohormones?

1. Transdermal basics

Q: What is transdermal delivery?

Transdermal delivery is a method of delivering active drugs through the skin barrier, and is in many cases superior to other forms of delivery (oral, sublingual, etc). It involves applying active substances (such as prohormones) dissolved in a carrier (a substance or blend of substances designed to promote delivery of the active ingredient past the skin barrier).

Q: Why is transdermal administration of prohormones superior to oral administration?

There are numerous reasons why transdermal delivery can be preferable. The first is that transdermal delivery allows prohormones to avoid first pass metabolism in the liver. Most prohormones are readily destroyed in the digestive tract and liver, often making the dosages required (and money spent) much higher compared to transdermal delivery. It is estimated that transdermal prohormones have a 30-40% absorption rate, compared to 5-15% for oral prohormones. Also, certain hormonal substances may be toxic to the liver, and transdermal delivery significantly lessens this. Secondly, orally delivered prohormones have very short half-lives and must be taken 3-4 times daily. Not only is this inconvenient, but it means that during certain periods (such as sleep) blood levels of the hormone will be very low. Transdermal delivery effectively leads to a steady release over 12 or more hours, solving both of these problems.

Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of transdermal administration of prohormones when compared to sublingual/nasal administration?

Sublingual (absorption in the mouth, like a lozenge) and nasal delivery is limited by the amount that can be absorbed by the mucous membranes. The maximum amount of hormone that can be delivered is around 25 mg, and blood levels are elevated for 2-3 hours, compared to ~12 for transdermal. Therefore, sublingual and nasal prohormones must be dosed at least 5 times a day to be effective. However, sublingual/nasal delivery delivers 80-90% of the actives to the bloodstream, making it a very efficient carrier. A combination of transdermal application (for steady blood levels) and sublingual/nasal application (to spike blood levels, particularly pre-workout) could be effective.

Q: If I apply a transdermal hormone to a certain muscle group, does it increase strength in that particular muscle group?

Transdermal prohormones are delivered systemically, so applying them to a particular area will not cause disproportionate strength gain in that area. The exception is products that are geared toward local delivery, such as Sytenhance.

Q: Should transdermal prohormones be cycled differently than oral prohormones?

Cycles with transdermal prohormones should be the same length as one would use with oral prohormones, and post-cycle recovery should remain the same. The primary differences are how often you will administer the prohormone (two times daily as opposed to three or four) and the dose used.

Q: What are the dosages for transdermally administered hormones?

First off, it should be noted that the listed dosage and duration on product labels is often conservative. Also, dosage will vary on stacking, level of experience, and many other factors. Here are some general guidelines

1-testosterone : 200-500 mg
19-norandrostenediol: 400-800 mg
4-androstenediol: 400-600 mg
3-alpha androstenediol: 50-150 mg
3-beta androstenediol: 200-500 mg
4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane): 50-200 mg
androstenetrione (6-OXO): 150-500 mg
7-OXO-DHEA (7-Keto): 100 mg

Note: Much of the dosage information comes from the prohormone FAQ, by pogue.

Q: What are the differences between the Dermabolics carrier and other carriers?

The Dermabolics carrier is identical to the carrier developed by Avant Labs except it does not contain carbomer, a thickening agent (due to the fact that it is a spray instead of a lotion). For a discussion of the science behind this carrier as well as comparison to some other products, see Battle of the Transdermal Prohormones by Par Deus.

2. Application tips

Q: When, where and how should transdermals be applied?

Transdermals should be applied as close to twelve hours apart as possible. An ideal time to apply is after showering or bathing. Scrubbing with a luffa, wash cloth, or sponge beforehand improves delivery, as does shaving the area of application. Ideal areas of application are those with thin skin, such as wrists, top of feet, upper arms, chest, back, or legs. Larger amounts will require larger application areas. If possible, latex gloves should be worn during application. These can be purchased at most pharmacies. It is also a good idea to shake the bottle before application to mix the ingredients. Spray or pump the lotion onto the hand and then rub into the application area. Afterwards, wash your hands with soap. Five minutes should be allowed for the transdermal to dry after contact with clothes or other objects.

Q: After applying the transdermal, should I wait before working out, showering, or swimming?

Yes. Water can wash off the transdermals making them less effective. You should wait at least half an hour before any of these activities, and ideally 1-2 hours. Also if you shower after application it is best not to scrub the area of application.

Q: Should I avoid contact with other people in the area of application?

Most definitely, especially females and children. This applies primarily if you are using a prohormone or steroid . Contact with the area may result in delivery of active hormone to the person contacted. If you think it will become a problem, it is best to keep the area covered (saran wrap over the area of application will work), or only use areas that will be covered with clothing as application spots. Also, certain application areas (such as the back of the legs) are less likely to be contacted.

Q: My transdermal product is resulting in rash/skin irritation. Is this normal? How do I avoid this?

Some people experience skin irritation or rashes from transdermals, especially those containing certain active ingredients. 1-testosterone is particularly caustic, and latex gloves are a must when applying this substance (even after washing hands thoroughly small amounts can remain that may get in the eyes or other sensitive areas, and it is quite painful). If latex gloves are not available, you can at least use a sandwich bag. The best way to avoid irritation regardless of the source is to rotate the area of application – one day apply to the feet, another to the upper arms, and so on. You can also apply lotion to areas of application not in use.

3. Homebrewing

Q: Can I add more prohormones to a transdermal prohormone product?

Yes, but it will become saturated at a certain point. Also, increasing the concentration may reduce the relative effectiveness. If you want a concentration or blend of ingredients that is not available pre-made it is usually better to make your own using a carrier product such as the transport matrix.

Q: How do I make my own transdermal prohormone?

Simply add the hormone powder to the carrier and then shake. If you accidentally put in too much hormone powder heating lightly and shaking vigorously may help. To heat a solution, boil a pot of water and let it cool to just below boiling. Place the prohormone bottle in the water for a few minutes, remove, then shake.

Q: I am using the Dermabolics carrier. Can adding DMSO increase the efficacy of my transdermal prohormone?

This carrier is quite effective as it is. In theory, adding 5-10% DMSO may increase absorption. However, one will have to put up with the side effects of DMSO (increased irritation, bad breath, etc).

4. Miscellaneous

Q: Can transdermal prohormones be dosed more often than two times daily?

If desired, a smaller dose can be used three times daily (every eight hours), but this does not have a clear benefit.

Q: Is it acceptable to use transdermal prohormones in conjunction with topical fat loss products?

Yes, just avoid applying them both in the same area.

Q: Can transdermal prohormones be used along with oral prohormones?

Yes, although if one is doing an intraday cycle (oral prohormones during the day, transdermal overnight) trying to compare oral and transdermal doses can often be difficult. Stacking one prohormone transdermally and another orally is not uncommon.

Q: What is the shelf life of transdermal prohormones?

This depends on the substance; in general the shelf life is 1-2 years. This can be increased by freezing and/or vacuum sealing. If you are planning on stocking up you are better off buying bulk prohormone powders and then mixing them in a carrier before use.

Special thanks to fuzz and the members of the Avant Labs forums for helping with this FAQ.

This FAQ may be reproduced, but the entirety of the FAQ including the author's name must be included.

[LM1332]

Androgen Addendum
by Loki

'Methyldienolone'


The chemically-structured 'little cousin' of Methyltrienolone , one of the most potent steroids ever developed, 'MethylDienolone,' which also goes by the names 'Methyldien' & it's true, structural designation 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyestra-4,9(10)dien-3-one, is one of the newest & most misunderstood 17-alpha-alkylated (i.e. 'methylated') androgens to have recently emerged in the PH/AAS market as of late.

Little true data exists concerning the use of methyldienolone in humans, and-- at the moment I am writing this article-- user feedback concerning the compound simply does not exist to any significant degree. To my knowledge, at present, I am one of only a half-dozen individuals in the United States to have used methyldienolone in a cycle. Thus, for the purposes of this piece, I will be relying more on my own individual experiences/observations with the compound, rather than lab assays & its presumed anabolic :androgenic activity ratio.

Methyldienolone, for all extents & purposes, can best be thought of as a highly orally bioavailable, non-aromatizing 19-Nortestosterone derivative that boasts a very anabolic and moderately androgenic profile. Just to give you an idea, methyldienolone is only a single double-bond away from the 'ubersteroid' 17a-Methyl-17b-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-Trien-3-one, one of the most anabolic (as well as hepatotoxic) steroids known to man.

In my own limited experience with the compound, methyldienolone is a rather singular androgen in its utter absence of effects on mood, energy levels, and SNS activity. While it is moderately androgenic (and thus has the penchant to produce any/all of the typical androgenic sides associated with PH/AAS use [acne, hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, et. al.]), methyldienolone does not appear to have any significant effect on energy levels, appetite, aggression/complacency, or cognitive capacity. Furthermore, given its close structural similarities to methyltrienolone (as well as its tremendous potency), methyldienolone is probably also the most hepatotoxic commercially-available 17aa-androgen currently. As with all 17aa-androgens, those with prior liver conditions &/or concerns in this regard should make sure they exercise the upmost caution if they choose to pursue methyldienolone for personal use.

In terms of its anabolic capabilities, methyldienolone is, without doubt, the most potent (on a mg/mg basis), widely-available 17aa-androgen that one can currently obtain 'legally' (Author's note: Although it is important to note that the actual 'legality' of this class of compounds [re: 17aa-androgens] in compliance with the terms of DSHEA should be considered 'highly questionable' at best). As a comparison, 1mg of methyldienolone seems to be equivalent, anabolically, to ~8-12mg of 17aa-1-Testosterone (also known as Methyl-1-Test). Impressive (and often rapid) LBM gains (even in the face of a caloric deficit), marginal strength increases, and noticeable aesthetic improvements in vascularity, muscle hardness & fullness, and leanness are all facets to methyldienolone use that I have witnessed first-hand.

As a stand-alone androgen, methyldienolone should be used @ 1-3mg/day. Heavily experienced &/or much larger lifters might do better with 4-5mg/day, and I do not feel that there is any need whatsoever to exceed the 5mg/day dose-range. 750mcg-1000mcg (1mg) of methyldienolone can also be used in stacks with other androgens as well, although it is NOT recommended the use of methyldienolone in conjuction with aromatizing androgens such as 4-androstenediol (4AD) due to the potential incidence of progesterone-induced side-effects, which can negatively affect mood, skin appearance, insulin sensitivity, and vascularity, among other potentially-detrimental occurences/conditions.

[LM1332]

Prohormone stacks
From Introduction to Prohormones pt. II, by David Tolson

Here are a number of prohormone stacks for those who are new to prohormones and attempting to reach various goals. The dosages given are general recommendations for a first cycle, and can be decreased for extra caution and increased on subsequent cycles if desired effects are not achieved. However, do not use dosages higher than those listed here on your first cycle, if anything start with a lower dose. Note that all of the stacks consist of two prohormones/steroids . There is usually little reason for more than this, and almost never reason to stack more than three substances. If increased effect is desired, just increase dosage. This allows one to better guage the gains and side effects they get from specific substances for future reference.

These stacks have general ratings based on price, anabolic effects, and side effects. Keep in mind that individual reactions will always vary.

1. Stacks for muscle mass

These stacks are ideal for putting on significant amounts of mass and gaining strength in a short period of time. They can be used whether bulking or cutting, but they will probably cause a significant increase in appetite and at least some water retention which can interfere with progress and guaging of results while cutting.

1-test + 4-AD
Price: Transdermal – very low; oral – high
Effectiveness: Very effective
Side effects: Moderate-high androgenic and low-moderate estrogenic
Recommended dosages: 1-test: 150-250 mg transdermal, 300-500 mg oral, 500-800 mg oral as 1-AD. 4-AD: 200-400 mg transdermal, 600-1200 mg oral.
Comments: This is the most popular stack, and with good reason. Transdermally, this combination produces fast and noticeable results and at a good price. Orally (usually in the form of 1-AD and 4-AD) it is more expensive but still a highly effective stack. The 1-test provides high anabolic activity while the 4-AD reduces some of the side effects and provides additional anabolism. Sex drive is usually maintained or even significantly increased. This is the #1 recommended stack for beginners who want to see good gains with a good side effect profile.

4-AD
Price: Transdermal – very low; oral – low
Effectiveness: Low-medium
Side effects: Moderate-high androgenic and estrogenic
Recommended dosage: 600-800 mg transdermal, 1.5-2 g oral.
Comments: 4-AD is also commonly used as a standalone, especially by those who do not want to begin with a compound as potent as 1-test, or by those simply seeking the benefits of increased testosterone . In addition to the increased strength and muscle mass and decreased body fat, 4-AD significantly increases sex drive and provides the other neural benefits of testosterone. It can also be used as a preworkout stimulant.

1,4-andro + 4-AD
Price: Transdermal/oral – medium; oral – high
Effectiveness: Moderate
Side effects: Moderate androgenic and estrogenic
Recommended dosages: 1,4-andro: 600-1000 mg oral. 4-AD: 300-500 mg transdermal, 900-1500 mg oral.
Comments: This is a replacement for the 1-test/4-AD stack that has a better side effect profile but will still produce good results while bulking. 1,4-andro will have less androgenic side effects than 1-test and also will not reduce sex drive, but it is also a less effective muscle builder. This stack is recommended for those looking for a good combination for bulking but also concerned with side effects and not as concerned with price.

2. Stacks for leaning out

These are stacks that are generally preferred by dieters or pre-contest preparation. They are used to promote muscle hardness and vascularity with little water retention, and also used for lean mass gain. Athletes more concerned with endurance may also find these stacks of benefit.

1-test + 1,4-andro
Price: Transdermal/oral – high; oral – very high
Effectiveness: Highly effective
Side effects: Moderate androgenic, low estrogenic
Recommended dosages: 1-test: 150-250 mg transdermal, 300-500 mg oral, 500-800 mg oral as 1-AD. 1,4-andro: 600-1000 mg oral.
Comments: In my opinion this is the most effective dieting stack for beginners (when the 1-test is transdermal), with the primary issue being the high price. 1-test is androgenic, while the 1,4-andro will offset this effect to a degree, and both compounds will promote lean mass gain or at least maintenance of strength and size on a diet. The 1,4-andro will provide a small amount of estrogen that will also be beneficial.

1-test
Price: Transdermal – low; oral – medium
Effectiveness: Moderate-high
Side effects: Moderate-high androgenic
Recommended dosage: 200-400 mg transdermal, 400-800 mg oral, 600-1200 mg oral as 1-AD.
Comments: This will be almost as effective as the above stack (probably more effective in higher dosages) but at reduced price and with a greater degree of side effects – both androgenic side effects and the side effects of low natural testosterone and estrogen levels. Some find that they can easily tolerate these side effects while others cannot. While cutting, stacking 1-test with a lower dosage of 4-AD may also help. For cutting, I recommend trying 1-test as a standalone or with low dose 4-AD before adding in another compound like 1,4-andro, because if one finds it to be effective and tolerable a lot of money can be saved.

3-alpha + 1,4-andro
Price: Transdermal/oral – medium; oral – medium
Effectiveness: Moderate
Side effects: Moderate-high androgenic
Recommended dosages: 3-alpha: 50-150 mg transdermal, 100-300 mg oral. 1,4-andro: 600-1000 mg oral.
Comments: This is another popular dieting stack. 3-alpha is a DHT precursor, and as such will (reputedly) increase hardness and strength while also being anti-estrogenic. The increased strength may be of particular benefit on a diet. The 1,4-andro is added to provide additional benefit to strength/anabolism without adding much in terms of side effects. Those concerned with androgenic side effects such as baldness should avoid using 3-alpha or DHT precursors.

3-alpha + 1-test
Price: Transdermal – low; oral – high
Effectiveness: Moderate-high
Side effects: Highly androgenic
Recommended dosages: 3-alpha: 50-150 mg transdermal, 100-300 mg oral. 1-test: 150-250 mg transdermal, 300-500 mg oral, 500-800 mg oral as 1-AD.
Comments: This is about as androgenic as you can get, but should allow for significant retention/increase in lean mass and strength. It is doubtful that the anabolic benefit will be as high as if a compound that aromatized was included, but this is ideal for those who want to avoid estrogenic side effects but are not concerned with androgenic side effects. On this stack, there will be very little estrogen in the body which can be unhealthy in the long-term.

3. Low side effect stacks

For many, especially beginners, prevention of side effects is the number one concern with prohormones. On prohormones, some side effects, such as shutdown of natural testosterone production, are inevitable. Also, with decreased side effects there is usually a trend of decreased effectiveness and also increased price. However, for those whose number one priority is minimizing side effects, these stacks are ideal. Due to the low amount of androgenic side effects, these are also the best stacks for females who want to use prohormones, although they should reduce the recommended dosage by approximately half.

1,4-andro
Price: Medium-high
Effectiveness: Low-moderate
Side effects: Low-moderate androgenic, low estrogenic
Recommended dosage: 800-1600 mg orally.
Comments: At this point, user feedback on 1,4-andro alone has not been promising. Although increased strength and lean mass gains are reported, they are usually not as significant as expected, and only at higher dosages. This is not to say that it doesn't work, only that most do not like the monetary cost/benefit ratio compared to other prohormones/steroids. Still, even at effective dosages very few side effects have been reported. Also, another possible reason that there is less positive feedback is that this compound does not cause rapid and noticeable changes, which may be more related to the side effect profile than anything else. Significant gains can still be made, albeit at a higher price.

19-nordiol
Price: Transdermal – low; oral – medium
Effectiveness: Low
Side effects: Low-moderate estrogenic
Recommended dosage: 400-800 mg transdermal, 1.5-2 g oral.
Comments: 19-nor is another prohormone that hasn't really lived up to its promise. Again, it is effective, but only once high doses are reached. Users can expect very few if any androgenic sides, but with a good chance of some estrogenic side effects occuring. It will also reduce libido. This prohormone is best used by those who want to avoid any and all androgenic side effects.

19-nordiol + 1,4-andro
Price: Transdermal/oral – high; oral – very high
Effectiveness: Low-moderate
Side effects: Low androgenic, low estrogenic
Recommended dosage: 19-nor: 300-500 mg transdermal, 900-1.5 g oral. 1,4-andro: 600-1000 mg oral.
Comments: With this stack, we get the benefits of two compounds with low side effects combined that balance each other out for both low androgenic and estrogenic side effects and probably less reduction in sex drive than if 19-nor was used as a standalone. The issue is that this is one of the most expensive prohormone stacks there is. I still recommend that those with a great concern with side effects use this stack, as they are more likely to see results from it. Using the 19-nor in a transdermal can help save some money.

19-nordiol + 4-AD
Price: Transdermal – low; oral – low-medium
Effectiveness: Moderate
Side effects: Low-moderate androgenic, low-moderate estrogenic
Recommended dosage: 300-500 mg transdermal, 900-1.2 g oral. 4-AD: 300-500 mg transdermal, 900-1.2 g oral.
Comments: This stack is the middle ground between the low side effect stacks and the mass gain stacks. The side effects are pretty balanced, and it will not kill sex drive, and will also yield noticeable results. Another benefit is that it doesn't empty the wallet as much as other low side effect stacks. Additionally, if side effects are noticed on cycle, they can easily be reduced by adding in a 5-AR inhibitor like finasteride (for androgenic side effects) or an aromatase inhibitor like formestane (for estrogenic side effects), allowing one to have the comfort of knowing that should side effects occur, they can be rapidly eliminated and ending the cycle is not necessary.

[LM1332]

Androstenetrione and Estrogen Control
By David Tolson


1. What is androstenetrione (6-OXO)?

Androstenetrione (4-androstene- 3,6,17-trione; androst-4- ene-3,6,17-trione), also known as 6-OXO, is a suicidal inhibitor of the enzyme aromatase. Aromatase is the enzyme responsible for the conversion of androgens such as testosterone to estrogens. Inhibition of this enzyme generally results in a lower production of estrogen, and because testosterone is a precursor to estrogen, this signals the body to produce more testosterone as a substrate for estrogen production in an attempt to bring estrogen levels back to normal. 6-OXO was one of the earliest discovered aromatase inhibitors, and it has been demonstrated to significantly increase testosterone levels without short-term adverse effects. For more information on this research, see 6-OXO Research Update by Patrick Arnold.

2. What is post-cycle therapy?

Natural production of testosterone is controlled by the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis (HPTA). When the body senses the need for testosterone, the HPTA releases GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone), which signals the release of LH (Luteinizing Hormone), which in turn signals the production of testosterone. The increased testosterone then signals back to the HPTA that testosterone needs are met. This provides a negative feedback system that keeps natural testosterone levels within a certain range. However, when an exogenous steroid /prohormone is administered, it will also signal the HPTA that testosterone needs are met. The HPTA then stops signalling the production of testosterone, and this is what leads to the shutdown of natural production of testosterone during a steroid cycle. This is the reason that testicular shrinkage is experienced by many who use steroids /prohormones, especially for longer cycles.

After a cycle, natural testosterone production will slowly return to normal. However, depending on the severity of the shutdown, this process can take months. During this time, anabolic hormone levels will be minimized, and the gains made during the cycle may be lost. The goal of post-cycle recovery (PCT) is to restore both testosterone levels and natural production of testosterone as quickly as possible, among other ancillary goals. Agents commonly used for PCT include HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin ), SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulators) such as clomiphene (clomid) and tamoxifen (nolvadex ), and aromatase inhibitors. In most cases, these are prescription drugs.

3. When is PCT necessary?

PCT is necessary after any steroid/prohormone cycle, no matter what the substance. Short cycles (1-2 weeks) may be an exception, although some amount of PCT is still wise in these cases. The length of PCT will generally depend on how long the cycle was. For a 4 week cycle, PCT will usually last 2-3 weeks, while for a 12 week cycle it may last as long as 6 weeks. For longer cycles, use of HCG if possible is highly recommended.

4. What is the role of 6-OXO in PCT?

6-OXO is the most effective PCT agent that can be legally sold as a supplement. By inhibiting estrogen production, the HPTA is signalled to increase testosterone levels to compensate – in other words, 6-OXO inhibits one of the negative feedback signals that decreases the signalling of testosterone production. This allows for faster restoration of natural testosterone levels, in addition to a lowering of estrogen levels which may be high post-cycle (depending on the prohormone/steroid used). Still, 6-OXO isn't perfect. Recovery of LH (recall that this is the signal for testosterone production) is not the only issue post-cycle, especially if testicular atrophy has occured. Also, if the steroid/prohormone used does not aromatise to estrogen, estrogen levels will be low to begin with (because if natural testosterone production is halted, natural estrogen production is decreased as well), in which case an aromatase inhibitor will presumably have less of an effect. Nevertheless, 6-OXO is still one of the best options out there for PCT.

5. What are the side effects of 6-OXO?

The side effects of 6-OXO are those that can be expected from increased testosterone (and DHT) production. The most common complaint is acne (although this also shows that the product is working). Increased sex drive is also common. With long-term use, risk of BPH (prostate enlargement) and male pattern baldness may be increased, and the possibility of these occuring may be reduced by concurrent use of finasteride (propecia, proscar) or, in the case of BPH, saw palmetto.

6. If I have access to clomid or nolvadex, should I use it instead of 6-OXO?

There is much debate on this topic, so there is no conclusive answer. More tend to lean towards the use of a SERM for multiple reasons, such as the fact that they are tried and true. The reasons to prefer one over the other is an in-depth debate that will not be covered here, but both are good options. Since feedback also varies, it may be best for the individual to give both substances a try and see what they like best.

7. Can 6-OXO be used as a standalone to increase testosterone levels?

Yes, although most users do not report positive results. The reported side effects (such as acne) usually outweigh the potential benefits. Another consideration is that continual use of 6-OXO will be quite expensive. Also, although the present research is promising in this regard, the long-term safety of 6-OXO is still not established. However, this still remains the most effective legal way of increasing testosterone levels without causing shutdown, and may be especially useful for those with low baseline testosterone.

8. What dose of 6-OXO should be used?

6-OXO should be started immediately post-cycle at a high dose, which is then tapered down weekly. The starting dose for the first week is usually 600 mg, although some go with 800 mg or more. Here are some examples:

After a 4 week cycle:

Week 1: 600 mg
Week 2: 300 mg
Week 3: 100 mg


After a 6 week cycle:

Week 1: 600 mg
Week 2: 400 mg
Week 3: 300 mg
Week 4: 200 mg


Dosing preferences will vary, but usually follow this general outline, although sometimes the high dose is used for longer than one week. 6-OXO only needs to be taken once daily, as aromatase levels take a long time to recover. Another potential route is transdermal 6-OXO, and users have reported good results at 100-400 mg using this method.

If you have any questions or comments regarding this article, please email [email protected].

[nsa]

Good post, anything to stop people from posting questions on m1t posted by new members.

[Fartdaemon]

whoa!

Long read, but very informative!

[Darkness]

Nice post

[daman1]

very nice

[LM1332]

Thats all i care about is...is stop ppl from asking the same question after question after question on m1t and if they can stack it with 4ad or something

[Blown_SC]

Maybe a sticky in the Supp Forum?

[zOaib]

sticky icky time MR ADMINISTRATORS , since we have lost so much info lately this needs to be A STICKY ICKY ! plz

[zOaib]

one more post for good luck !

[LM1332]

haha thx guyz when i brought this information over here i didnt expect this to happen. Thanks

[LM1332]

bump

[iNvid]

Great post bro. Bump :]

[Mach500]

Hey LM1332, Thanks for the info. man. You've been like the biggest help on here. I copy pasted the everything you wrote, into my word document, and saved it.

I'm sure this will help me out quite a bit.

-Javan

[eacman65]

nice post

[LM1332]

should be included into NSAs or somehow combined

[DNoMac]

a lil BUMP

[Mach500]

This post has a lot of 'BUMPS' on it. I don't get why so many people are getting bumped from this post. I don't see why they would have flamed, I don't see why they would have posted a source, and I don't see why they would have been trying to sell something of a link. I don't get it...

[DirtyDog]

Im new and this has answered nearly all my questions.

Just one more though!

I have already bought some M1T and want to know if I was to use it in small doses (5-10mg per day) for a couple of months of 2weeks on 2weeks off would I get get reasonable gains with minimum side effects? Im only aiming to put on another stone or so then thats it, I will just maintain it from there. I just want to put the last bit on quicker.

[LM1332]

Everybody who has ever used M1T never went for more then a month. Because it is just very toxic for your liver and you just need your body lest a little in between. Lets say do it for 4 weeks relax for a month and do another 4 weeks do it that way. Because it will take 2 weeks for it to start working so you need another 2 weeks to let it get to the full potential.

[LM1332]

I didnt quite understood what you said.

This post has a lot of 'BUMPS' on it. I don't get why so many people are getting bumped from this post. I don't see why they would have flamed, I don't see why they would have posted a source, and I don't see why they would have been trying to sell something of a link. I don't get it...

[JT2k]

bump.

[LM1332]

bump

[Mach500]

I was wondering why most of the posts say 'bump?' Usually that means one of the Board moderators took off what someone had typed, and I was wondering what anyone could have said that caused their post to get 'bumped.' Get what I'm saying now?

-Javan

[Warrior]

I was wondering why most of the posts say 'bump?' Usually that means one of the Board moderators took off what someone had typed, and I was wondering what anyone could have said that caused their post to get 'bumped.' Get what I'm saying now?

-Javan

BUMP [to the top]

Someone bumps a thread for more replies and/or more exposure...

[iNvid]

Can we sticky this? Has ALOT of good info.

[l2elapse]

great post!

[squash]

sorry but i just tried to read this all, way to much info for me to retain.
can i get some quick answers here.

are these legal?
if yes where can i get them?
im a 100m sprinter im not prepared to take anything on the banned list.
i just bought a product called carabolin from biotest was this a wise decision?

sorry for not having a good concentration span

[*Narkissos*]

sorry but i just tried to read this all, way to much info for me to retain.
can i get some quick answers here.

No.. Reading all the way tru is required as that's the only way you will 'know'.

Post-reading...start your own thread

are these legal?
if yes where can i get them?

Use the search function.. That will require additional reading.

im a 100m sprinter im not prepared to take anything on the banned list.

As an athlete you have a responsibility to yourself to read and keep yourself abreast of what's banned.. and what's not.

Check tru the pro-hormone/pro-steroid faq and cross-reference it with the list of banned substances.. which you can obtain from your sport-governing body.

i just bought a product called carabolin from biotest was this a wise decision?

Read... Check the ingredients...
Read any info on the product to determine if it metabolises into anything 'banned'.

Whether it was 'wise' depends on if the supplement was chosen with specific goals in mind.

Who buys a supplement and then asks questions about it anyway?

sorry for not having a good concentration span

No excuse.. you can't expect someone else to read it for you.

It just doesn't work like that.

Narkissos

[Jensen]

Thanks for the info. BTW, is there a reason I can't see the links?

[S431M7]

interesting info to read.

[newfie]

Awsome post...great job man. One of the most useful on here im sure

[bigboy89]

thanks a lot bro, this article cleared up a lot of things for me, appreciate it

[futurestar67]

Great read Im getting ready to start Superdrol so this was very informative and helpful.

Thanks Bro

[Big_to_Be]

Wow, thanks for the info.