Creatine Ester vs Monohydrate?

[TripleH]

What is the big difference between the two? Is ester alot better as far as gains than monohydrate?

[ToTheBuckeT21]

I'm sure you could research this pretty easy

[brutesinme]

I think most of the studies have been done on monohydrate...anyways thats what i stick with

[Natty99]

Ethyl Ester has some advantages. No Bloating. No Loading Phase. But More $ and Tastes like Pure Hell!

[Undecided09]

No esterfied creatine is significantly better:
1. Doesnt require loading because it dissolves in 15-30 minutes, can be taken before lift and is already dissolved into your blood stream
2. doesnt Require creatine transporters to be carried to cells and passes right through your cell membrane "volumizing" your cell, thus creating real mass, not the appearance of mass
3. No "edema" (water retention) because it dissolves so quickly and easily and enters your cells, not waits outside your cell to enter like monohydrate attracting water to try and help dissolve
4. Since esterfied enters your cells you keep your size and it is real mass, Where ass monohydrate creates swelling due to your bodies attempt to throw water at the lingering monohydrates in order to have it dissolved to enter the cell.
5. Monohydrate doesn't dissolve for three weeks, your body doesnt absorb anythign until its 100 percent dissolved, thus loading, an attempt to pack in a ton of it to spill over ur kidneys and get into your bloodstream, Esterfied is instantaneous dissolve and thus can be found in pill for, MONOHYDRATE CAN"T BE PUT INTO A PILL (explains/verifies its slow dissolving)

I am speaking specifically about CE2 by MRI, Its the best esterfied, and yes its more expensive, WHY DO U THINK THAT? MAYBE CAUSE ITS BETTER AND IT WORKS?

Hope that helps

[hardgainer12]

No esterfied creatine is significantly better:
1. Doesnt require loading because it dissolves in 15-30 minutes, can be taken before lift and is already dissolved into your blood stream
2. doesnt Require creatine transporters to be carried to cells and passes right through your cell membrane "volumizing" your cell, thus creating real mass, not the appearance of mass
3. No "edema" (water retention) because it dissolves so quickly and easily and enters your cells, not waits outside your cell to enter like monohydrate attracting water to try and help dissolve
4. Since esterfied enters your cells you keep your size and it is real mass, Where ass monohydrate creates swelling due to your bodies attempt to throw water at the lingering monohydrates in order to have it dissolved to enter the cell.
5. Monohydrate doesn't dissolve for three weeks, your body doesnt absorb anythign until its 100 percent dissolved, thus loading, an attempt to pack in a ton of it to spill over ur kidneys and get into your bloodstream, Esterfied is instantaneous dissolve and thus can be found in pill for, MONOHYDRATE CAN"T BE PUT INTO A PILL (explains/verifies its slow dissolving)

I am speaking specifically about CE2 by MRI, Its the best esterfied, and yes its more expensive, WHY DO U THINK THAT? MAYBE CAUSE ITS BETTER AND IT WORKS?

Hope that helps

i agree 100%

[brutesinme]

I disagree with you, and it seems like you are spouting company jargon. First, look at scientific papers discussing the need for a transport system. To put it simply, monohydrate doesn't need one. As for the rest, would you be able to provide some studies that show what you claim? I'll look for the one i read negating the need for the transport system.

[Undecided09]

You might wanna try reading some of Ed Byrds stuff...He only invented creatine....Im regurgitating what I have read from my findings...And what do u need studies for, I mean I can't cite a specific one, but i cant cite a specific one that says protein is the foundation of muscle, but you believe that dont you? Thats understood, and so is this.... No matter how much water you put into your little cup, monohydrate will NOT dissolve 100 percent, Yeah it might be floating around in there, but you can't show me a monohydrate that doesnt have little particles floating around in there like sand when you drink it, PERIOD. Because it doesn't dissolve completely for three weeks. Also, Look at the labeling on monohydrate, why do you think there is almost 10 grams a serving? Your body can't absorb 10 grams in a sitting....Its because they overflow your kidneys with it to get it into ur blood stream (LOADING). Theres ur evidence....

[Milky87]

No matter how much water you put into your little cup, monohydrate will NOT dissolve 100 percent, Yeah it might be floating around in there, but you can't show me a monohydrate that doesnt have little particles floating around in there like sand when you drink it, PERIOD.

I would like to contest this. If you supply enough solvent, any amount of any solute will dissolve.... it just takes more for some than for others.

"little particles"? Do you realise that particles are little by definistion? The point of something dissolving is that it DOES have particles floating through the solvent

[Undecided09]

Nope, "it takes 11 ounces of a liquid to dissolve 5 grams of creatine monohydrate. It doesnt matter if its water, grape juice, orange juice, or Kool-Aid. That's is Aqueous Solubility factor. But even if you fill up a glass with 11 ounces of water, and pour 5 grams of creatine monohydrate, you'd still have un-dissolved creatine. WHy? it takes hours to dissolve."
-Ed Byrd

Thats a quote right from Ed Byrd's book that is sitting right in front of me. He invented creatine, whether it be monohydrate or esterfied, he invented it. So if you want to contest him be my guest, this is what the INVENTOR OF CREATINE says....

[IronAdam]

While we're talking about mono vs. esterfied, does anyone know how each affects the liver? Does either cause significant stress on the liver? Is one worse than the other and by how much?

Just curious because I'm on accutane now and looking for a supp. that won't affect my liver values as the accutane is already stressing it to the max

[brutesinme]

ok, firts dude, no one "invented" creatine. Creatine is found naturally in meats, esp. red meats. He may have been the one that isolated it and postulated it's effects, but he's no "inventor." thats like saying newton invented gravity. Second, what do you mean "what do you need studies for?" Where do you think all the information you toss around comes from? If you can't quote your sources, you info is no good. In your case you get all your info from one source. BAD SCIENCE my friend. That being said, i'll go read up on mr. Byrd if i have time today, may not get to it, i've been busy

[Undecided09]

Ok when I posted that I assumed the readers were smart enough to understand that creatine is already in your body as well as in red meat, thus yes he didnt create/invent it. He was the inventor of the introduction of it to promote cell volumization...Ok so I apparantley I needed to explain that ok...However, When i said you dont need studies, but when you discuss protein you don't quote a source everytime because its understood that protein is essential for muscle building and repair...you dont need a source thats understood...Its also understood that Monohydrate overflows your kidneys to get into your bloodstream, and its aqueous solution is 11 ounce of liquid per 5 grams.
"Creatine Monohydrate can only exist in a dry form. Once creatine monohydrate comes into contact with any liquid of any sort, it loses its hydrogen part and becomes whats known as a zwitterion. Negatively charged on one end, positively charged on the other....Water based Zwitterion, like creatine, have difficulty penetration fat soluble membranes by themselves. Thats why they are forced to use creatine transporters. Trouble is, compared to the amount of creatine that needs transporting, there are only a limited number of transporters. So these monohydrate molecules must wait in line to be transported to the cell. As monohydrate waits in line they may be pulling water to them. This would would then accumulate and pool there, causing edema (water retention). That's why some body builders report looking puffy or undefined." -Ed B.

[brutesinme]

If you are trying to say that knowledge that Monohydrate overflows your kidneys to get into your bloodstream, and its aqueous solution is 11 ounce of liquid per 5 grams. is as common as the knowledge that protein is the building block of muscle, you hang in different cicles than I. I personally think you did believe he invented it, because you repeated that several times in your previous post, only recently learning that it's naturally occuring. I still will take you to task for relying on one source for your information. All people have an inherent bias, and this carries over to their work. The only way to minimize the effect this bias has on your learning is to examine the subject from different angles. This has gone beyond the issue of which creatine is best, because i don't know. I do know most studies have been done on monohydrate, so that is the one I stick with. If you can produce some corroborating (sp?) evidence that your vaunted mr Byrd is correct, i'd be happy to read it.

[brutesinme]

thats soo funny dude, you edited your post where you repeated several times he invented creatine. Are you that vain?

[MFT81]

To simply answear the question without hijaking the thread

Ester means that its fat-soluable just like vitamins A D E and K
This SUPPOSEDLY allows the creatine to pass through the cell membrane easier,

Monohydrate is what we've had for years, its what a majority of studies use in testing, Common practice is to use monohydrate with a high G.I. liquid to help the creatine absorb.

Personaly I really like a product called m-5 made by cellucor. Its a Kre-Akalyn. Its a little cheaper than an esterfied creatine and the results are great. Good strength gains and almost no water retention.

[Undecided09]

Ok so now ur saying that I didn't know creatine was naturally occurring and found in uncooked red meat, ate by body builders in the 60's before creatine was invented as a supplement. I assumed you knew what I meant by invented, its not worth arguing over, stick with Monohydrate and I'll stick with esterfied, I just like the idea that I know which one works better, if ur content with somethign that isnt the best then by all means keep ingesting it...

[Milky87]

Nope, "it takes 11 ounces of a liquid to dissolve 5 grams of creatine monohydrate. It doesnt matter if its water, grape juice, orange juice, or Kool-Aid. That's is Aqueous Solubility factor. But even if you fill up a glass with 11 ounces of water, and pour 5 grams of creatine monohydrate, you'd still have un-dissolved creatine. WHy? it takes hours to dissolve."
-Ed Byrd

Thats a quote right from Ed Byrd's book that is sitting right in front of me. He invented creatine, whether it be monohydrate or esterfied, he invented it. So if you want to contest him be my guest, this is what the INVENTOR OF CREATINE says....

Solubility changes from solvent to solvent. With a highly polar solvent such as water, it would dissolve at a given rate (I dont know what that given rate is). If you change the pH f the solvent - either increase to make it basic or decrease to make it acidic - solubility will change again

[Milky87]

"Creatine Monohydrate can only exist in a dry form. Once creatine monohydrate comes into contact with any liquid of any sort, it loses its hydrogen part and becomes whats known as a zwitterion. Negatively charged on one end, positively charged on the other....Water based Zwitterion, like creatine, have difficulty penetration fat soluble membranes by themselves.

This mystical Ed Byrd is an idiot. Such a molecule is called a dipole. Going by his theory, if water lost its hydrogen atoms, it would have a positively and negatively charged oxygen atom.

[Undecided09]

I'm not gonna defend his science or attempt to explain it, bottom line, you cant absorb the 10 grams of creatine that is supplied in a serving of monohydrate because they are trying to flood ur system to get it into your bloodstream. Secondly, I have used both and the exact symptons were seen with monohydrate, puffiness/edema, and with esterfied, almost no water retention, and no size loss after I was off...Thats my experience of both, not science...

[Dense 03]

1. Doesnt require loading because it dissolves in 15-30 minutes, can be taken before lift and is already dissolved into your blood stream
2. doesnt Require creatine transporters to be carried to cells and passes right through your cell membrane "volumizing" your cell, thus creating real mass, not the appearance of mass
3. No "edema" (water retention) because it dissolves so quickly and easily and enters your cells, not waits outside your cell to enter like monohydrate attracting water to try and help dissolve
4. Since esterfied enters your cells you keep your size and it is real mass, Where ass monohydrate creates swelling due to your bodies attempt to throw water at the lingering monohydrates in order to have it dissolved to enter the cell.
5. Monohydrate doesn't dissolve for three weeks, your body doesnt absorb anythign until its 100 percent dissolved, thus loading, an attempt to pack in a ton of it to spill over ur kidneys and get into your bloodstream, Esterfied is instantaneous dissolve and thus can be found in pill for, MONOHYDRATE CAN"T BE PUT INTO A PILL (explains/verifies its slow dissolving)

Wow. This Ed Byrd guy is pretty nifty.

[sonar1234]

I got some Vault from San i know that its CEE in there with all other complex.

I used monohydrate a lot since it first came got my hands on it back in 1994.
Problem is yes i did bloat me crazy and made me retain tone of water.

Question is will i be able to keep the gains i make from CCE since it does not make you retain lots of water?

[brutesinme]

sonar whatever happens with it, let us know

[pelly789]

ok ive done a little research on all of this and this is what i have come up with:

1. Creatine Mono-Hydrate:

Understanding the Benefits of Creatine Monohydrate

Creatine monohydrate is a tasteless, white crystalline powder. Creatine occurs naturally in many foods, with an especially high concentration in red meats. Creatine combines with phosphate in the body to form phosphocreatine. Phosphocreatine is the rate limiting factor in energy production in muscle tissue.

During the first ten seconds of an exercise using maximal loads (1-6 reps), muscles work in the phosphagenic range, that is, they use stored ATP and phosphocreatine for energy. ATP is an energy-bearing substrate residing in muscle. Phosphocreatine is a precursor to ATP. By increasing phosphocreatine through creatine monohydrate supplementation, athletes can increase their ATP, and thereby, the number of repetitions performed on any given exercise. In addition, creatine users typically experience dramatic results within only 7 days! Lean body mass gains of 5-10 pounds are not uncommon. This type of progress sounds like something from the mythical headlines of a supplement ad, but these claims can actually be validated.

Recent scientific studies are confirming that creatine monohydrate can increase a 1-rep maximum benchpress by 20 lb., improve sprint capacity, and can help pack on 5-10 lb. of lean muscle in less than 30 days.1,2,3

Not only will creatine increase strength, speed, and size, but it will also improve the appearance of muscles. Creatine monohydrate associates with water as it is absorbed into the muscle cells. As more creatine is stored, more water is brought into the muscle.4 This explains why creatine has a hydrating effect on muscle"which is made up of approximately 75% water. Bodybuilders take notice: a well hydrated muscle has the appearance of being fuller, rounder, and more pumped. 4 But, more importantly, creatine\'s desirable side-effects are bolstered by its proven safety.

*taken from creatine world

2. Creatine Ethyl Ester:

Regular creatine monohydrate has been shown effective at increasing lean muscle mass1,2,3,4, muscle strength5,6 and athletic performance.7,8

However, regular creatine monohydrate is absorbed poorly by the body - and its effectiveness is dependant upon the cells ability to absorb it. The poor absorption rate of regular creatine monohydrate requires the creatine user to ingest large dosages of creatine to achieve desired effect.

Because creatine draws water to the cell, and because most ingested creatine monohydrate is not absorbed, unabsorbed creatine will sit outside of the target cell with the water, and this will result in the "creatine bloat."

Long-term clinical studies have proven that creatine monohydrate is safe for use by persons free of medical complication9, but why would you want to ingest more creatine monohydrate than you have to simply because your creatine is inefficient?

Creatine ethyl ester is creatine monohydrate with an ester attached. The attachment of an ester is significant, because esters are found in the fat tissue of animals. But, why is this important? What role does this have in the absorption of creatine?

All substances that you put into your body will affect its operation. There are three ways that substances can affect a cells operation. They are:

1. Ligand binding to protein receptor sites.
2. Secondary messenger / metabotropic systems
3. Passive permeation of the cell wall via lipids

When a substance enters the body and affects the bodies operation, it is known as a ligand. The soma and dendrites of the cell have protein receptor sites to which ligands can bind. The process of a ligand binding with a receptor site is akin to a lock and key: only keys of a certain shape work with certain locks. When they work and cause the cells stimulation they are called agonists. When they block the cell from functioning they are called antagonists.

When a ligand binds with the receptor site of a target cell, the cell, in the simplest of cases, changes its shape, opens up its ion channels and changes its function. In so-called "secondary messenger" or metabotropic cells, the ligand binds with the receptor site and an internal protein known as a g-protein is released. This released protein then binds to an internal site inside of the cell, and then the cell changes its behavior by opening its ion channels. Cells that operate in this way are known as metabotropic cells because their operation requires metabolic energy.

Passive permeation is a process that describes the diffusion of a substance across a cell membrane through the use of lipids as transport mechanisms. Because no "work" is being done by the cell in this model, this model is called passive permeation.

Creatine monohydrate utilizes lipids to permeate the cell wall and enter the cell. Because of this, the esterification of creatine, and the presence of esters in animal fat tissue, becomes significant.

Creatine monohydrate is semi-lipopholic. This means that it inefficiently uses fat as a transport mechanism. The esterification of substances will increase their lipopholic abilities, and thus esterified creatine will use fat more efficiently to permeate the cell wall and exert its effects upon cellular function than its unesterified creatine monohydrate counterpart.

This means, simply, that not only will dosage requirements be lower, but the absorption of esterified creatine will be increased and the infamous "creatine bloat" will be eliminated!

*taken from bodybuilding.com

hopefully this clears some things up about the differences and what is better or not hope it helps Enjoy!

[Undecided09]

I will admit that my ability to explain everything isn't nearly as good as the explanation pelly has provided us from his research. However, how many things did I say correlate directly with his research? Pretty much all of it...So like I said, esterfied is more easliy and effectively absorbed, thus less of it is needed, and more of it is taken in, therefore creating less water retention, bloating, and the ever desired "cell volumization" that is the core of putting on mass from creatine...Whammy....
P.S. this isn't an argument, its just a debate, theres a big difference...

[hardgainer12]

monohydrate kills my stomach because its not ph balanced w ur stomach acid. it makes me cramp and have horrible back pains

[brutesinme]

pelly, thanks for doing some research i was too lazy to do, undecided, i never thought of this as an argument. I think that the benefits of ester are thoretically sound, i just haven't found any research that backs this up. As any scientist would, i wait until evidence is forthcoming to solidify an opinion.

[pelly789]

no problem just giving back to what i have taken from AR hope it helped out a little

[RONINASAUNA]

If I take mono.. I am on the toilet day and night.....

[pelly789]

If I take mono.. I am on the toilet day and night.....

that sucks ive taken creatine in the past and didnt really have any sides from it ive tryed met-rx amped and bsn no-explode both expensive as he*l and didnt really notice too much. from taking the time to learn about creatine more i realized i took way to little of it to get noticeable results. o well waste of money..

[TexN343]

Solubility changes from solvent to solvent. With a highly polar solvent such as water, it would dissolve at a given rate (I dont know what that given rate is). If you change the pH f the solvent - either increase to make it basic or decrease to make it acidic - solubility will change again

So would orange juice be acidic enough to dissolve most of the creatine mono? I have a hard time downing the gritty drink. I have heard grape juice is better but I gag on that also. I would even consider mixing it with lemon juice. ANYTHING to get the grittyness gone. Anyone have any suggestions? Should I go the other way with milk?

[TADOLFI]

One thing that works for me is to mix it with my whey protein drink. Might want to give that a shot.

[Undecided09]

The problems that you have experienced with the "grittyness" of creatine is exaclty the point that I was trying to make about Monohydrates poor aqueous solubility. The idea that no matter the liquid or the amount, it still takes monohydrate hours to dissolve completely and thats why the particles are floating around in there like little pieces of sand, or left at the bottom undissolved...that is also very poor because as I noted, and so did pelly, your body wont absorb anything until it is 100 percent dissolved, and if it takes so long to dissolve, its pre-workout utilization is virtually gone...

[TexN343]

Point taken but I have a whole jug and I am not going to just throw it out... that would be just stupid. I still get the pump from the creatine so I know it works for my pre-workout shake. I have GNC creatine mono and No-Xplode in my pre-workout shake as it is right now I just use water to mix it. What could I use to take away to some more gritt and make it dissolve better? My No-Xplode flavor is lemonade and the creatine mono isn't flavored so I am going to adding some lemon juice to the mix tommorow and post results.

[pelly789]

Point taken but I have a whole jug and I am not going to just throw it out... that would be just stupid. I still get the pump from the creatine so I know it works for my pre-workout shake. I have GNC creatine mono and No-Xplode in my pre-workout shake as it is right now I just use water to mix it. What could I use to take away to some more gritt and make it dissolve better? My No-Xplode flavor is lemonade so I am going to adding some lemon juice to the mix tommorow and post results.

no need to mix it with lemonade its lemony enough if you just put it in water. and good luck with that

[Undecided09]

sorry to tell you but the pump you get isnt from your creatine, creatine is nonstimulatory, and it doesnt hold pumps, its intention is to fill your muscles and cells when u do get that pump, not create, hold, or increase that pump, thats not creatine....

[TexN343]

The lemon juice did in fact help dissolve the creatine monohydrate. I added 1 scoop of the GNC creatine monohydrate. Then enough lemon juice to make the powder into liquid then added 2 and 1/2 scoops of No-Xplode and filled the rest of with water. I shook it in my shaker and let the carbonation out. It was more sour than anything else. No more grit. Pelly, I added the lemon juice to increase the acidity of the mix to increase the dissolve rate of the monohyrdrate. I also suggest taking an anti-acid be4 drinking the mix.