Best Carb Drink for cheap.

[dhriscerr]

Im loooking for a good carb powder for my post work out i was hoping to get 80 Grams. Im tight on cash so something thats 50 bucks for 20 servings probably wont work, and keep in mind most servings are only 40grams, any help guys?> Thanks

[Giants11]

Just go for any Powdered cars source....Dextrose, Maltodextrin, Oat Flour, Oatmeal....Surely some of those would fit into your budget.

[hawktribal]

ever thought about using dex pwo? it's about as cheap as it comes.. not sure if that's what your after or not though.

[perfectbeast2001]

I use waxy maize starch (same ingredient used in Vitargo) and it is very cheap. I pay £3.99 per kilo in the UK. Stateside will be cheaper still.

[notorious_mem]

I use waxy maize starch (same ingredient used in Vitargo) and it is very cheap. I pay £3.99 per kilo in the UK. Stateside will be cheaper still.

do u buy it seperate?for the life of me i cant find it for sale?

[perfectbeast2001]

do u buy it seperate?for the life of me i cant find it for sale?

I just spent 30 mins looking for this, jeez I thought the american stores would be better!!

http://www.trueprotein.com/product_listings.aspx?cid=23

[perfectbeast2001]

Troponin posted this on another board

It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post exercise meal has been scrutinized, and analyzed make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

After exercise that depletes the body of it’s glycogen stores, an enzyme called glycogen synthetase is produced in elevated quantities by the body to help restore glycogen levels that have been depleted from the exercise. Typical rates of glycogen resynthesis after short term, high intensity exercise are much higher than glycogen resynthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers are used more heavily in short term, high intensity exercise, and fast twitch fibers have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4)
This means that the body has a greater need, and a greater ability to restore glycogen levels after short term, high intensity training, which is exactly what weight training for bodybuilding purposes is.

It is widely known that it is important to get carbohydrates into your system soon after weight training. One reason is, studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Largely because of this fact, it has become standard practice to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. A "sugar" is defined as any of a class of water-soluble crystalline carbohydrates, including sucrose and lactose, having a characteristically sweet taste and classified as monosaccharides, disaccharides, and trisaccharides. (9) It was quickly noted by those in the know that not all sugars are created equal. For example, one monosaccharide called fructose has often been given, an arguably undeserving, bad rap for it’s propensity to restore liver glycogen levels when muscle glycogen restoration is the goal.

The Glycemic Index (GI index) was developed to give a number to carbohydrate rich foods based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the more quickly it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. Insulin is the "bus" that helps shuttle all the nutrients to your muscle and other cells of the body. The highest GI food is glucose, with a GI of 100. With this information, D-glucose (Dextrose), quickly became the carbohydrate of choice for use post workout.

What all this is saying is what everyone already knows. After a workout, it is important to take in fast acting protein and carbs to begin repairing and rebuilding your hard earned muscle. But, what if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post workout carbohydrate war, high molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in recent studies in a wide range of post workout benefits.


The words most often thrown out when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is essentially based around the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic. A solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of energy uptake occurs. (11) Basically, a very low osmolality means it will get to your precious muscle as fast as possible.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower it’s osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher it’s osmolality. So, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to more closely appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and Dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000. The molecular weight of Dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This stat helps quantify the difference between the two carb sources.
The Osmolality of said HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution., which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and Dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate.(13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout? One study on the subject showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 hours after ingestion, with the scientists coming to the conclusion that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise."(6) What the scientists are saying can be paraphrased as "a HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles faster than the carbohydrate you’re using now." These studies showed that blood sugar levels and insulin levels were not statistically significantly different the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose. So, despite being a complex carbohydrate, compared to the sugary Dextrose, the HMW carbohydrate was still raising insulin at about the same level as Dextrose. So, at this point, what we’re dealing with is something that powers through the stomach, leaving you with no bloated feeling, reaching the point of digestion at mach speeds, reaches the blood stream as fast as Dextrose, but restores glycogen 70% faster. Sounds too good to be true? It gets better.


What this all leads towards is that the Osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post workout, as well as increase the uptake of vital nutrients added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That’s right, all the stuff you’ve been taking after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate, so when adding other nutrients you must consider the effect those nutrients will have on the total molecular weight of the mix. So, at least in theory, too much protein, creatine, and other nutrients can take away some of its benefits.

For this reason, it is my belief that added amino based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My current recommendations for a 200lb bodybuilder are 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. Since we’re trying to keep extra nutrients to a minimum, we are focusing on select nutrients that give us the most "bang for our buck." L-leucine has been shown in studies to be the specific amino acid to "switch on" protein synthesis. And all of the Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA’s) have been shown to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle. Creatine has been shown in many studies to provide many benefits to bodybuilders. This means that the "best" amino acids will be available as quickly as possible to trigger muscle growth, and decrease catabolism.

This meal should be followed approximately 15-30min later with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates, preferably a fast digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the make up of your muscle mass, you will learn that there is much more to the muscle than just contractile tissue. A large portion of your muscle mass area is made up of things besides muscle. There is water, glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, capillaries, etc., etc. By using these HMW carbohydrate powders, you can quickly draw the carbohydrate up into your muscles, along with water, and the cell volumizing nutrients you take along with it. With the faster glycogen restoration, you can decrease catabolism after a workout, and speed up the potential for synthesizing protein as new muscle. In plain English, the result is more muscle.

[BigLittleTim]

I just spent 30 mins looking for this, jeez I thought the american stores would be better!!

http://www.trueprotein.com/product_listings.aspx?cid=23

Thanks for the research, P. Beast. I've been meaning to try waxy maize starch ever since you mentioned it, but have been too lazy/busy to look for a source.

-BigLittleTim

[perfectbeast2001]

no worries fella! Hope you get results from it, I can't say enough good about the stuff!! And normally i hate supps.

[y100adics]

Is Waxy Maize a HMW carb?

[perfectbeast2001]

^yes^

[stlhrse]

So would you still need to take additional protien supplement and things like creatine?

[dhriscerr]

Thanks Perfect Beast! Awsome site and dirt cheap!! 2.18 a pound at 9 servings of 50g carbs. 450/80 = 6 servings, like .40 cents a workout!!! Now I can afford that!!! Im going to get dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize and mix them together to get 80g. 10lbs of each for 70bucks, should last me 120 workouts!!! Thats along time!!!! I was looking at supps that were 30-50 bucks for 20 servings. Thanks guys!!! Oh almost forgot, should I get sugar free creatine now, Im going to go with the obvious? Yes?

[notorious_mem]

I just spent 30 mins looking for this, jeez I thought the american stores would be better!!

http://www.trueprotein.com/product_listings.aspx?cid=23

thanks beast

[BIGswang]

after you take the waxy maize drink and wait 15-30 min then you drink a protien and malto drinkafter or protein waxy maize which one?

[perfectbeast2001]

I take WMS (80g) with creatine,BCAA and glut right after workout, then 15 mins later take 50g whey.
If you cant be bothered with that then WMS with whey is fine too (i just split them so i can fully absorb the BCAA ect and they dont compete with the whey).

I would not mix with dex or malto as the whole point of WMS is to provide a very fast absorbing low gi carb, dex and malto will obviosly raise gi, possibly slow absorbtion and possibly cause bloating (another reason i favour WMS)

[dhriscerr]

Perfect Beast do you use sugar free creatine then? So you only use WM then? No dextrose malto for you then?

[perfectbeast2001]

no dex or malto and I add CEE which is creatine Ethyl ester, no sugar and no bloating

[dhriscerr]

[QUOTE=perfectbeast2001]Troponin posted this on another board


For this reason, it is my belief that added amino based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My current recommendations for a 200lb bodybuilder are 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. Since we’re trying to keep extra nutrients to a minimum, we are focusing on select nutrients that give us the most "bang for our buck." L-leucine has been shown in studies to be the specific amino acid to "switch on" protein synthesis. And all of the Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA’s) have been shown to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle. Creatine has been shown in many studies to provide many benefits to bodybuilders. This means that the "best" amino acids will be available as quickly as possible to trigger muscle growth, and decrease catabolism.

This meal should be followed approximately 15-30min later with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates, preferably a fast digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

What Im going to ask then is, Waxy Maize, BCAA, Creatine, Immediately following workout, then 15-20 Min later Whey, and (heres where im not following exactly) Should I take whey and Dext, Malto or Whey and 1/2 to 1 cup Oats?????

[dhriscerr]

Because in the original post by Troponin It said then 15-30 min later take liquid protien such as whey isolate, AND some complex carbs

[rubix6]

Troponin posted this on another board

It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post exercise meal has been scrutinized, and analyzed make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

After exercise that depletes the body of it’s glycogen stores, an enzyme called glycogen synthetase is produced in elevated quantities by the body to help restore glycogen levels that have been depleted from the exercise. Typical rates of glycogen resynthesis after short term, high intensity exercise are much higher than glycogen resynthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers are used more heavily in short term, high intensity exercise, and fast twitch fibers have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4)
This means that the body has a greater need, and a greater ability to restore glycogen levels after short term, high intensity training, which is exactly what weight training for bodybuilding purposes is.

It is widely known that it is important to get carbohydrates into your system soon after weight training. One reason is, studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Largely because of this fact, it has become standard practice to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. A "sugar" is defined as any of a class of water-soluble crystalline carbohydrates, including sucrose and lactose, having a characteristically sweet taste and classified as monosaccharides, disaccharides, and trisaccharides. (9) It was quickly noted by those in the know that not all sugars are created equal. For example, one monosaccharide called fructose has often been given, an arguably undeserving, bad rap for it’s propensity to restore liver glycogen levels when muscle glycogen restoration is the goal.

The Glycemic Index (GI index) was developed to give a number to carbohydrate rich foods based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the more quickly it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. Insulin is the "bus" that helps shuttle all the nutrients to your muscle and other cells of the body. The highest GI food is glucose, with a GI of 100. With this information, D-glucose (Dextrose), quickly became the carbohydrate of choice for use post workout.

What all this is saying is what everyone already knows. After a workout, it is important to take in fast acting protein and carbs to begin repairing and rebuilding your hard earned muscle. But, what if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post workout carbohydrate war, high molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in recent studies in a wide range of post workout benefits.


The words most often thrown out when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is essentially based around the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic. A solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of energy uptake occurs. (11) Basically, a very low osmolality means it will get to your precious muscle as fast as possible.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower it’s osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher it’s osmolality. So, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to more closely appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and Dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000. The molecular weight of Dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This stat helps quantify the difference between the two carb sources.
The Osmolality of said HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution., which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and Dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate.(13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout? One study on the subject showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 hours after ingestion, with the scientists coming to the conclusion that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise."(6) What the scientists are saying can be paraphrased as "a HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles faster than the carbohydrate you’re using now." These studies showed that blood sugar levels and insulin levels were not statistically significantly different the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose. So, despite being a complex carbohydrate, compared to the sugary Dextrose, the HMW carbohydrate was still raising insulin at about the same level as Dextrose. So, at this point, what we’re dealing with is something that powers through the stomach, leaving you with no bloated feeling, reaching the point of digestion at mach speeds, reaches the blood stream as fast as Dextrose, but restores glycogen 70% faster. Sounds too good to be true? It gets better.


What this all leads towards is that the Osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post workout, as well as increase the uptake of vital nutrients added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That’s right, all the stuff you’ve been taking after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate, so when adding other nutrients you must consider the effect those nutrients will have on the total molecular weight of the mix. So, at least in theory, too much protein, creatine, and other nutrients can take away some of its benefits.

For this reason, it is my belief that added amino based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My current recommendations for a 200lb bodybuilder are 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. Since we’re trying to keep extra nutrients to a minimum, we are focusing on select nutrients that give us the most "bang for our buck." L-leucine has been shown in studies to be the specific amino acid to "switch on" protein synthesis. And all of the Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA’s) have been shown to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle. Creatine has been shown in many studies to provide many benefits to bodybuilders. This means that the "best" amino acids will be available as quickly as possible to trigger muscle growth, and decrease catabolism.

This meal should be followed approximately 15-30min later with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates, preferably a fast digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the make up of your muscle mass, you will learn that there is much more to the muscle than just contractile tissue. A large portion of your muscle mass area is made up of things besides muscle. There is water, glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, capillaries, etc., etc. By using these HMW carbohydrate powders, you can quickly draw the carbohydrate up into your muscles, along with water, and the cell volumizing nutrients you take along with it. With the faster glycogen restoration, you can decrease catabolism after a workout, and speed up the potential for synthesizing protein as new muscle. In plain English, the result is more muscle.

wow! good info

[BIGswang]

i think he mean after the waxy maize drink wait 15-30 min then just have a plain whey drink that about 50g no more carbs since your already takin it in the first drink.

[dhriscerr]

Thats what I what I gathered from Perfect Beast, but in the original post by Troponin It said consume carbs, then wait 15-30 min and consumer, protein and some complex carbs(again) So Im trying to figure out if I should hit up some dextrose then or just have some oats or rice????

[stlhrse]

what are some examples of complex carbs versus regular carbs. I thought carbs were carbs

[dhriscerr]

no simple and complex, not even close to the same dude, Simple is sugar and things that are readily available for you body to use instantly, Thats why you can eat a snickers before a basketball game for energy. complex are things like rice, pasta, oats thigns that take hours to use in your body but keep your insulin levels steady and plenty of glucose for you body to use for fuel so you dont burn that muscle. Thats why runners load up the night before on pasta and rice and complex carbs

[stlhrse]

so
oats
rice
pasta

Are those the main ones?

And the regular carbs are just sugar like candy bars, and the burn up real fast and on't do your body any good, correct?

complex carbs= good
simple carbs= bad

[perfectbeast2001]

Thats what I what I gathered from Perfect Beast, but in the original post by Troponin It said consume carbs, then wait 15-30 min and consumer, protein and some complex carbs(again) So Im trying to figure out if I should hit up some dextrose then or just have some oats or rice????

I dont follow that posts pwo protocol, I do the following.

PWO WMS+glut+CEE+BCAA
+15 mins whey 50g
+1hr solid meal with complex carbs and protein

[dhriscerr]

Looks good to me perfect beast, and stlhrse thats correct, simple=Bad
Complex=good

[dhriscerr]

Just ordered 5lbs of dex and 5lbs malto couldnt afford WMS right now, 23 bucks for carb powder, 17 for shipping!!! OUCH!!!