Supplements

[jimmyinkedup]

OK so I have recently posted some comments in a few particular threads re: a certain supplement...i did it in a way that prob unfortunately cost my claims credibility(angry overtones). Also my problem is NOT with this particular supplement or company ...it is with an industry ..they are a symptom of the problem. However the purpose of this thread is to intelligently discuss supplements. My View:

*These products are not fda approved. That means the companies do not have to prove safety of product prior to its sale.
* No validity as to product claims need be proven before its legal sale or distribution.
* Product need not go through any clinical trial process whatsoever prior to sale
* Because no fda approval required no proof of ingredients (chemical assay) need be submitted to fda proir to open market sale.

Ok those are several reasons to be leary i mean basically no proof of whats in supplement, or that its safe, or does what it says, needs to happen prior to open market sale and distribution to public.

Next lets address ingredient claims. So many claims are made that this ingredient does this ...and that one does that. I think its a good idea to personally research these claims ingredient by ingredient. A couple of facts to note: New England Journal of Medicine and Journal of American Medical Association are reliable sources for this info. Not a study ...on rats ...at east somewhere university...we arent rats. Or a study by muscletech on muscletech products ..cmon! When researching these claims and examining studies..take note of dosages administered and administration method...it makes all the difference ....i mean HGH is amino acid chains ..but we all know ingesting amino acids isnt taking HGH. You will be surprised ..even creatine ...a widely accepted supplement as far as effectiveness..in sanctioned medical clinical trials ...was shown at best to be effective in only 60% of the population and miniammly effective at that.
Ingredient modification. Many manufacturers claim that this ester has been added to make the ingredient more bioavaiable etc...many times this is not the case(untrue claim on ester effects on absorption) ... ( i wont even get into how that saves them $ in manufacturing)
Ingredient safety- When you research ingredients take note of this..some supps actually contain toxic substances ...when u do an ingredient by ingredient search in credible medical sources u will find this to be the case- disturbing to say the least. Take note of side effect of all ingredients...it important.
Marketing - Well cmon now...we have all seen 1st hand the exaggerated claims of products. I dont even need to go there IMO. How about the ones that sound like steroids but are in no way close....now thats clever marketing ..how many unknowing people think they are juicing and they are on a supp? I see 10 post a week in steroid forum froms guys on superdrol,tren extreme etc... The names are no coincidence guys. What is disturbing to me is how supp companies get people through sponsorship ($) or on a smaller level like boards for example (free products- kickbacks) ...to say their products work etc... (greed sucks) Do you think Jay Cutler is that big because of Muscletech??? Do you really believe he even uses all their products?Do you also believe people on boards are so thrilled with products they praise them high and low..going out of their way to push them even ...for no personal benefit...call me skeptical but i dont think thats always the case. Now the targeting of younger people wanting desperately to be huge or ripped ..thats wrong....anyway..u get my point.
Now im not saying all supps suck etc..im saying be smart , do your homework,investigate ingredient effects, claims etc... and ask yourself honestly ..is it worth it? Weigh out the $ .. the potential health risks...true proven ingredient effects...the lack of real evidence...proven benefit(if there is one). If the answer is yes I reasearched and imo its worth it and you are comfortable..go for it. Id def not base my decision on claims from paid sponsors or people i dont know who obviously have some motivation other than results to push a product and efinately not on manufacturers claims that need have no factual proof behind them!
Overall the lack of regulation , inaccurate scientific claims , potentially dangerous ingredients, lack of scientific proof of effctivness and shady marketing strategies have made me a leary and IMO smart consumer. Id encourage everyone to take that approach.
Finally as you may note almost all you supps say to incorporate them in a healthy diet /exercise program. My own personal opinion is if you do the diet exercise program ...you will get the same results with or with out the supplement in 90% of the cases. Again just my opinion. Thanks for listening and i look forward to input from board members.

[jimmyinkedup]

Another suggestion RE : supps. If you do reseacrh a supp and think it is worth trying. If it is a combination product you may be better served investigating the effective doasge of each coumpound...buying them individually and combining them ( be leary and investigate etser claims many times base product is equally or more effective). You can save $ and get full effective dose of each compound ... in many cases more effective ...

[TheJuicer]

I couldnt agree with you more in most cases. There used to be a mag. called Muscle Media 2000 that I used to read that would do lab tests on many well know companies and they would hardly contain any of the stuff on the label. I've spend a lot of my hard earned money through out the years on this crap and I can tell you that I use whey for right after my workout with Waxy Maize (which I'm still up in the air on this one) creatine(RAW MCC), and Amp 02. Everything in the past 15 years has done nothing for me (except M1T)(but thats a different story). Do I think Amp02 and RAW MCC are making me huge...NO. Do I think it gives me a slight edge over the next guy...YES. Just my opinion.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ great post ..as long as you are educated about products and comfortable with the effects of all ingredients and they work for you by all means go for it. My personal opinion on the products you chose for yourself may be different but that is irrelevant(we are all entitled to personal opinion) ...if it works for you..you feel its safe and you like results by all means use it. thanks for participating ...im hoping to get more feedback...

[TheJuicer]

ok...Jimmy...I have to ask...what do you use???

[jimmyinkedup]

multi vitamin/ antioxidant ...vit c... vit e ...ala ...aminos (l argenine / l tyrosine / lysine )...fenugreek ...fish oil caps ..lecithin ..whey protein conc
In the past i tried many supps ...found most to be useless ..then again as my knowledge and resources to research increased i found out why and also discovered some downright scary things re toxicity of some (honestly a small % but some none the less)ingredients etc.
I sometimes use nac and milk thistle and cran extract as well .
All compounds we ingest have physiological sides but are the gains worth the risks? Some things i use im not 100% certain they do what is theorized BUT i do know they arent toxic ...and the theory behind mechanism makes sense and has some foundation re: results in human subjects ....and i also know they are so inexpensive its worth the chance IMO. (ie milk thistle / cran extract)
The entire issue and decision is a personal one..by now i hope its clear i believe that. I just believe the decision should be an informed intelligent one,thats all. Not saying anyones is or isnt ...ive stated my method of research ..thats what makes me comfortable ingesting a substance ...that is also a personal thing.
My feelings on supp companies/manufacturers are well expressed above in OP.

[jimmyinkedup]

I couldnt agree with you more in most cases. There used to be a mag. called Muscle Media 2000 that I used to read that would do lab tests on many well know companies and they would hardly contain any of the stuff on the label. I've spend a lot of my hard earned money through out the years on this crap and I can tell you that I use whey for right after my workout with Waxy Maize (which I'm still up in the air on this one) creatine(RAW MCC), and Amp 02. Everything in the past 15 years has done nothing for me (except M1T)(but thats a different story). Do I think Amp02 and RAW MCC are making me huge...NO. Do I think it gives me a slight edge over the next guy...YES. Just my opinion.

I too am up in the air on this. The claims are intriguing. jackjackson(member here) did a glucose test after pwo shake including waxy maize and his glucose levels only minimally increased....corresponding to claims by the manufacturers that b/c it bypasses stomach so quickly that it has minimal impact on blood sugar levels and therefore can even be used in low carb diet situations. My main question remaining is does it effectively shuttle nutrients ??(much harder to prove) Id love to get you 1st hand input on WM so far or when you have a more clear cut opinion.

[Andro9]

I too am up in the air on this. The claims are intriguing. jackjackson(member here) did a glucose test after pwo shake including waxy maize and his glucose levels only minimally increased....corresponding to claims by the manufacturers that b/c it bypasses stomach so quickly that it has minimal impact on insulin and therefore can even be used in low carb diet situations. My main question remaining is does it effectively shuttle nutrients ??(much harder to prove) Id love to get you 1st hand input on WM so far or when you have a more clear cut opinion.

good info. i use a waxy maize/trehalos mixture for pwo carbs and sometimes i down a can of sweet potatoes. i'm gonna look into this somemore

[TheJuicer]

I used dextrose for awhile but always felt bloated, on Waxy Maize I feel good. Definately dont feel the sugar buzz...its only been a week so thats why I'm still up in the air.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ gotcha ...when u have some time in with it keep us informed if you dont mind. If someone was to try it preworkout with whey ...and the nutrient shuttling properties were true...your would prob get a more prominant pump much like a high glycemic shake pre workout would do. Not the most scientific method and no pump wouldnt rule out claims by any means .... but if increased pump may lend credibility to the claim ..just a thought...

[ray0414]

its pretty late so im gonna read all that tomorrow, but the law passed back in the early 90s was a complete dis-service to weightlifters and bodybuilders all over the USA, it gave companies full power to market whatever they wanted with no supervision. last year i think it was i seen something in the news about supplements being tested, and a normal multivitamin, cant remember which brand but it was a fairly common one, possibly centrum, well it was way off on % of a vitamin, and was also found to have LEAD in it i believe. thats why i try to get all my supplements in PURE form.

[jimmyinkedup]

so i dont wanna cross over threads or beat this to death but i think the tribulus/test booster thread reinforced many concerns i express in this OP re: supp manufacturers....



and cmon guys let get in on THIS thread ...we got a good start on some waxy maize input ....lets make this a productive imformative thread and find out what supps really work and what they do...scientifically and firsthand!

[TheJuicer]

In the gym I always take it to the next level. The one thing that I think I notice with Waxy Maize is the feeling soon after I use it of energy almost like I didnt workout at all. Almost like I could go back to the gym and lift again. I've never felt this before. I felt horrible with dex. and stopped using it even though I still have like 10lbs. of the shit. I'll def. let everyone know after I finish my first container. So I will say this...so far Waxy Maize = Smooth Energy Boost.

[TheJuicer]

Jimmy..what do you think of Creatine...I think the new shit that came out is crap(CEE)..but the cheap Creatine Mono is still money.

[Maverick_J8]

Brilliant post. I couldn't agree more.

Now Universal Nutrition - What do you think of them? Ever used personally?

Specifically looking at the Animal Pak which claims to yield pretty much every vitamin and mineral/amino/performance enhancer under the sun; with the exactly precise dosages needed for a typical bodybuilder. Do you believe all Companies have the stated dosages they claim? Or do you think they're exaggerated as a way to promote a product. A ploy if you will.


Price is very steep though, which is why i'm still skeptical.

[jimmyinkedup]

In the gym I always take it to the next level. The one thing that I think I notice with Waxy Maize is the feeling soon after I use it of energy almost like I didnt workout at all. Almost like I could go back to the gym and lift again. I've never felt this before. I felt horrible with dex. and stopped using it even though I still have like 10lbs. of the shit. I'll def. let everyone know after I finish my first container. So I will say this...so far Waxy Maize = Smooth Energy Boost.

good input re waxy maize...would u consider what i suggested in my other post re preworkout with small amount of protein ...see if u get better pump in workout...that would go a fair way IMO ,short of scientic testing, to prove the nutrient shuttling capbilites are there? Jackjackson seems to have proven the impact on blood sugar levels is minimum (your no bloat reinforces - re fast moving through stomach = no bloat as well as minimal blood sugar impact). The nutrient shutting would cinch effectiveness of compound and reenforce manufacturer claims. smooth energy boost encouraging as well ..again good stuff....

[jimmyinkedup]

Jimmy..what do you think of Creatine...I think the new shit that came out is crap(CEE)..but the cheap Creatine Mono is still money.

I personally saw no gains from creatine but I believe in a study published in NE Journal of Medicine that states it is effective in 60 % of people(to varying degrees). It 's relative IMO ...i mean u can get creatine cheap ..it is relatively safe at our doses and if it works a little bit for you its prob worth it. THATS JMO...THATS ALL
How about you...do you see results from creatine?

[jimmyinkedup]

Brilliant post. I couldn't agree more.

Now Universal Nutrition - What do you think of them? Ever used personally?

Specifically looking at the Animal Pak which claims to yield pretty much every vitamin and mineral/amino/performance enhancer under the sun; with the exactly precise dosages needed for a typical bodybuilder. Do you believe all Companies have the stated dosages they claim? Or do you think they're exaggerated as a way to promote a product. A ploy if you will.


Price is very steep though, which is why i'm still skeptical.

Never used this product. In my opinion again JMO vitamin/mineral supp can be taken in one seperate product. Same with aminos. Then "perfiormance enhancers" can be tinvestigated/tried indivually to see if they work at all. I mean truly if our diet is good ...we dont need crazy levels of vitamnis/minerals..to many fat soluable vitamins isnt healthy and too many h20 soluable are just wasted - harmlessly excreted.. Whey protein has an amazing amino acid profile....i do supp witrh a few aminos for diff specific purposes. Then what are the"performance enhancers?" Id research them again look for publshed studies on compound...not and article in muscle and fitness (what companies generate the most advertising revenue for them...umm the supp companies) if you think thats not a factor on info they publish IMO u r mistaken. Or dont believe a post on a bulletin board ...or a manufacturer claim or manufacturers claim on an unknown study. Thats my take on it..... You will also find in addition to tailoring doses and needs ...you may save money doing this and end up using only min products that work and are safe... JMO

I missed second half of this... I wanna believe all the dosages and ingredients are correct ...its just hard too when there is nothing forcing the companies to do that. I think effects of products are exaggerated way more than dosages. No doubt thats a ploy. All that being said Universal Nutrition has a pretty solid rep in the industry ...what does that mean...i dont really know*L* i know what it should mean..i just dont know if it does. The main component the way i see it in this supp would be preformance enhancers - i viewed ingredients my take is its :
vitamins /minerals / aminos/no2 (nitric oxide) / ginseng / ala (glucose disposal - anti oxidant)/several vit b sources / essentail fatty acids / coenzyme a (which helps sythesize fatty acids)/ iron (blood) / bioflavenoids (vitamin P-prevent vitamin c oxidation and promotes healty blood vessels - need vit c to be effective and some anecdotally believe vice versa)/digestive enzymes(7)

also of note contains inosinne - look what i located on this supp-,"based upon anecdotal reports by Russian and Eastern European athletes, inosine has been investigated for exercise-boosting (ergogenic) effects. However, controlled studies have concluded that inosine does not improve athletic performance and may even impair it."
References:

1. Starling RD, Trappe TA, Short KR, et al. Effect of inosine supplementation on aerobic and anaerobic cycling performance. Med Sci Sports Ex 1996;28:1193–8.

2. Williams MH, Kreider RB, Hunter DW, et al. Effect of inosine supplementation on 3-mile treadmill run performance and VO2 peak. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1990;22:517–22

and this - para amino benzoic acid - PABA is not essential to human health
References:

1. ^ "Para-aminobenzoic acid poisoning". National Institute of Health: National Library of Medicine (2007). Retrieved on 2007-06-19.
2. ^ P. J. Osgood; S. H. Moss, D. J. Davies (1982). "The sensitization of near-ultraviolet radiation killing of mammalian cells by the sunscreen agent para-aminobenzoic acid". Journal of Investigative Dermatology 79 (6): 354–357. doi:10.1111/1523-1747.ep12529409.
3. ^ "Compound Summary on PubChem". PubChem. National Institute of Health: National Library of Medicine (2006). Retrieved on 2006-04-05.

and this - shark cartilage - The benefits of this supplement have not been scientifically proven, nor has shark cartilage been reviewed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)

References:

1- Shark Cartilage Supplements Have No Effect, from the American Cancer Society
2- Injunction from the Federal Trade Commission, against Lane Labs-USA, Inc., Cartilage Consultants, Inc.

and this- coolustrum - Few scientific studies suggest that adult human consumption of bovine colostrum is beneficial to general health. Proponents of the use of bovine colostrum by humans as a dietary supplement claim that bovine colostrum raises both general immunity and physical strength, and sometimes cite the few studies of bovine colostrum in humans. Most of these studies do not show great efficacy of normal colostrum for human consumption, but show efficacy for specific health and immunity parameters when using Hyper Immunized colostrum (this is not hyper immunized colostrum so no great efficacy)

References

1. ^ Siber G. (1992) Immune globulin to prevent nosocomial infection. New England Journal of Medicine. 327(4):269-71.[1]
2. ^ Korhonen H.1; Marnila P.1; Gill H.S.2 Milk immunoglobulins and complement factors, British Journal of Nutrition, Volume 84, Supplement s1, 1 November 2000 , pp. 75-80(6) [2]
3. ^ Mitra AK, Mahalanabis D, Ashraf H, Unicomb L, Eeckels R, Tzipori S. Hyperimmune cow colostrum reduces diarrhoea due to rotavirus: a double-blind, controlled clinical trial, Acta Paediatr. 1995 Sep;84(9):996-1001[3]
4. ^ Immuron - Research & Product Development
5. ^ Immuron Flubody

so it contains 4 ingredients with no apparent benefit ..one of which may actually be detrimental to athletic performance. The rest of the ingrdients are spelled out above. One thing they def do is make product sound impressive by using obscure ingredient names instead of just saying vitb6 ...or lechithin or ala ...i dont like that ...no need makes me just suspicious as to why the product needs to look "complicated" to imply effectiveness....or maybe they just dont wanna see it a basic multi vitamin /mineral with efa's and basic bodybuilding supps in it like amino acids /ala/no2 and ginseng for energy and digestive enzymes to aid in digestion (not all that necessary imo...but thats JMO)
I WISH INGREDIENT AMOUNTS WERE LISTED THAT MAKES A BIG BIG IN EFFCTIVENESS

So now you have ingredients and knowledge of their function. In your opionion is it worth it by my caLcuations its 28 bucks +shipping for a 44 day supply (22 at max dosages)- not bad if the ingredients are at effective levels. combines- no2/vitamin/mineral/efa's /ala/ plus ginsing and digestive enzymes.
do you use/believe in the ingredients as individual supps? If so and you already use several or want to use several but dont currently this may be a product for you. Just remeber if u chose this product and are using any of the supps included in it before buying it id discontinuje their use when u start this ...Hope this was helpful.

NOTE _ AFTER SEEING DOSAGES BELOW THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN ENOUGH LARGININE OR PYRODOXINE A KETOGKLUTARATE TO BE EVEN CLOSE TO an NO2 SUPPLEMENT!!

Vitamin / mineral /efa's / ala (thiotic acid) /ginsing / digestive enzymes (kind of unnecessary imo)
so theres your info... is it worth 28 bucks for 44 days(or 22 at max dosage) of above ingredients ? thats the question you need to answer.

[jimmyinkedup]

Oh a tip thats proven very useful to me personally in the past:
If you are interested in a specfic product/products...you investigate claims vs fact / studies/compound safety etc...and it all looks good...there is nothing at all wrong with emailing the manufacturer and requesting a sample. I did this on 2 specific occasions in the past with several companies and many accommodated...more of them than you would think. I was just honest with them...I said look i spend $X /month on supplementation ..i am interested in this and this one of your products. I work out x number of days and have for x number of years ....If i try them and they work ill be spending my money every month on them. Its worth an email guys....

[TheJuicer]

I've always keeped a log on the way I feel at the gym and sets and reps. Anytime I've used creatine I've always noticed a small increase in strength and endurance. Muscle....well....I've tried a few diff. kinds of creatine and I do think the RAW MCC is a bit better then the EAS Creatine Mono. I also use. Just slightly though. I've cycled off creatine in the past and alway notice my endurance to drop within' a month. My muscle almost get a very tired feeling a bit quicker and the lactic acid is much more pronounced.

[TheJuicer]

My feeling on BCAA and Glutimine. Crap...I've used both many times hoping to feel or see a small change. I get plenty of protein so I dont need BCAA...also I take a shake after my workout which has 10g. Maybe Glutimine is good for dieting but I know how to diet without it.

[TheJuicer]

Ok...while I'm at it...Prohormone Superdrol...Used it a few years back after deciding to got natural haha...this shit shut me down harder then any cycle of the real stuff ever did. It took me a month to stop feeling like a little girl in the gym. M1t...I liked it but start out small dose because that stuff is stronger then d-bol. Also in my opinion...prohormones are crap...either stay natural or go with the real stuff.

[j4ever41]

Never used this product. In my opinion again JMO vitamin/mineral supp can be taken in one seperate product. Same with aminos. Then "perfiormance enhancers" can be tinvestigated/tried indivually to see if they work at all. I mean truly if our diet is good ...we dont need crazy levels of vitamnis/minerals..to many fat soluable vitamins isnt healthy and too many h20 soluable are just wasted - harmlessly excreted.. Whey protein has an amazing amino acid profile....i do supp witrh a few aminos for diff specific purposes. Then what are the"performance enhancers?" Id research them again look for publshed studies on compound...not and article in muscle and fitness (what companies generate the most advertising revenue for them...umm the supp companies) if you think thats not a factor on info they publish IMO u r mistaken. Or dont believe a post on a bulletin board ...or a manufacturer claim or manufacturers claim on an unknown study. Thats my take on it..... You will also find in addition to tailoring doses and needs ...you may save money doing this and end up using only min products that work and are safe... JMO

true i have never taking those vit/min tabs thats got 1000,2000 and 3000 + % of rda in them just seems a little crazy to me,jmo, i do take a multi but i get a 90 day supply for about 7 bucks,marked with usp, and it does not have all those crazy %,does it do any positive good for me i dont know but it does no harm and its cheap. like you say keep a good diet.

[jimmyinkedup]

true i have never taking those vit/min tabs thats got 1000,2000 and 3000 + % of rda in them just seems a little crazy to me,jmo, i do take a multi but i get a 90 day supply for about 7 bucks,marked with usp, and it does not have all those crazy %,does it do any positive good for me i dont know but it does no harm and its cheap. like you say keep a good diet.

a rule i use with several supps...do they def work dunno ..are they safe -yes ....are there scientific reasons they should work or i need them- yes ...are they inexpensive-yes. Hard to really go "wrong" with this isnt it?

[jimmyinkedup]

I've always keeped a log on the way I feel at the gym and sets and reps. Anytime I've used creatine I've always noticed a small increase in strength and endurance. Muscle....well....I've tried a few diff. kinds of creatine and I do think the RAW MCC is a bit better then the EAS Creatine Mono. I also use. Just slightly though. I've cycled off creatine in the past and alway notice my endurance to drop within' a month. My muscle almost get a very tired feeling a bit quicker and the lactic acid is much more pronounced.

If that had been my experience id be using it...no doubt.

[jimmyinkedup]

My feeling on BCAA and Glutimine. Crap...I've used both many times hoping to feel or see a small change. I get plenty of protein so I dont need BCAA...also I take a shake after my workout which has 10g. Maybe Glutimine is good for dieting but I know how to diet without it.

i agree to a point ...esp when we ingest whey protein and diverse food sources for proteins . This ensure we get a broad range of aminos . whey has a very good amino acid profile. I do use 3 aminos - however they are more for what id call outside results unrelated to muscle development ...it should be mentioned if u use an NO supp you are using a from of the amino l argenine. I personally no longer use glutamine...could never say i saw a darn thing from its use!
I have to amend this its not true about 3 weeks ago i got convinced to try bcaa supplementation prior to cardio post workout to assist in prevention of enteing catabolic state ...i never did this and lost bodyfat and retained muscle well imo ...but im willing to try it and see if it works better so thats what im doing. Just wanted to correct ...i apologize.

[jimmyinkedup]

Ok...while I'm at it...Prohormone Superdrol...Used it a few years back after deciding to got natural haha...this shit shut me down harder then any cycle of the real stuff ever did. It took me a month to stop feeling like a little girl in the gym. M1t...I liked it but start out small dose because that stuff is stronger then d-bol. Also in my opinion...prohormones are crap...either stay natural or go with the real stuff.

I agree...and this is an area of contentious debate. However here is my logic and again JMO:
Why use a product thats contents arent even proven to be what they say they are ...arent required to be manufactured at pharmaceutical standards...give the same negative effects of steroids .....not nearly as good a positive results re muscle building as steroids. So you can go with something you arent 100% sure what it is ...will have same side effects but less results. Or you can go with human pharma grade juice....same side...excellent results. I dunno ..no brainer . Also same rules re prohormone and steroids as far as age to safely begin ...and this is my unpopular but scientifically sound as far as hpta/endocrine system deveklopment 25 years old or greater.....I know its unpopular but IMO its true and my exp was starting at 25 and im glad i did.

[Phate]

i use 75-80g of carbs from Waxy Maize Starch(trueprotein brand) in my PWO shake(other ingredients are whey isolate/concentrate and creatine), and i notice a nice rush a few minutes after drinking

personally i have been making good progress since i switched to this product and i recommend people to try it, especially since it is very cheap(3.59 per lb w/o any additives, though i suggest getting it flavored to compliment the protein powder you use as the flavors are pretty good IMO)

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ hey phate good to see you here and participating ...good post..

[Phate]

^^^ hey phate good to see you here and participating ...good post..

couldn't let you have all the fun

what's everyone's take on CEE vs. Monohydrate

[jimmyinkedup]

*L* i knew you would stir the pot .... "ethyl esters have been proven not to impact nutrient absorption" JAMA - study for nutritional supplementation of aids patients.
BUT what the real world take ...thats my opinion based on research but i dont take creatine ..i do take certain aminos with no etheyl ester and get desired effects with no problems..

[j4ever41]

if i can chime in? i can say that the funny thing is that i make good progress from creatine for about 5-6 weeks then its like my body wants to expel any cell volumization that i receive from it because i because my body wt will drop around 3-5 pounds my strength drops this last for about 2 weeks then everything starts going back up again

[jimmyinkedup]

if i can chime in? i can say that the funny thing is that i make good progress from creatine for about 5-6 weeks then its like my body wants to expel any cell volumization that i receive from it because i because my body wt will drop around 3-5 pounds my strength drops this last for about 2 weeks then everything starts going back up again

in this thread never a need to ask that ?
So its almost cyclical for you - effective in 5-6 week cycle then with 2 weeks lag periods in between? Interesting ..Anyone else notice this??

[IM708]

Now Universal Nutrition - What do you think of them? Ever used personally?

Wayyyy overpriced vitamins. Quality stuff and if you want to blow that kind of money go for it. By the individual vitamins, more cost effective.

Vitamin A (as acetate & 66% as beta-carotene - Depending on the bioavailability of the beta carotene will determine how much actual vitamin a you get out of that beta-carotene, thats quite a bit of beta carotene )9900IU
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 1g - good
Vitamin D (as ergocalciferol) 680IU D-3 form and higher dosage would be better
Vitamin E (as d-a-tocopheryl acetate) 300IU - Well at least they didn't use L-Tocopherol form, dosage could be a little higher.
Thiamin (as thiamin HCl) 76mg Nice
Riboflavin 76mg Nice
Niacin (as niacinamide) 82mg Nice
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCl) 72mg Nice
Folic Acid 400mcg Nice
Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin) 6mcg Are you kidding me? Disgustingly low dosage and in the form of cyanobalamin?
Biotin 300mcg Nice
Pantothenic Acid (as calcium pantothenate) 76mg Nice
Calcium (as citrate, carbonate) 2g Nice
Phosphorus (as calcium phosphate) 228mg Very low
Iodine (from kelp) 150mcg On the low side and isn't neccesary to supplement unless you have thyroid issues
Magnesium (as oxide) 133mg Extremely Low, absorption could be effected by zinc
Zinc (as oxide) 30mg A little on the low side and could have used zinc proteinate
Selenium (as selenite) 50mcg On the low side
Copper (as sulfate) 600mcg Very low amount
Manganese (as sulfate) 11mg Nice amount but most likely won't absorb due to the insane amounts of calcium
Chromium (as picolinate) 6mcg Extremely low
Potassium (as sulfate) 200mg
Animal Pak Amino Acid Blend
Lysine (from lactalbumin) 300mg
Methionine (from lactalbumin) 500mg
Leucine (from lactalbumin) 100mg
Valine (from lactalbumin) 760mg
Threonine (from lactalbumin) 48mg
Glutamic Acid (from lactalbumin) 700mg
Phenylalanine (from lactalbumin) 560mg
Arginine (as L-arginine)
Animal Pak Performance Optimizers
Siberian Ginseng (root) 2g Interesting
Oriental Ginseng (root) 250mg
Smilax officinalis (root) 500mg
Protogen A (as thioctic acid) 200mg
Inosine (as hypoxanthine riboside) 500mg
Pyridoxine a-Ketoglutarate (PAK) 200mg
Carnitine (as L-carnitine) 25mg
Chromium Picolinate 50mcg Very low, stated twice?
Coenzyme A 20mg
Coenzyme B12 10mg Thats quite a bit of methylcobalamin
Phosphatidylcholine 200mg
Para-Aminobenzoic Acid (PABA) 400mg Good
Colostrum (bovine) 25mg
Argentine Liver (bovinr) 3.9g
Shark Cartilage 1g Why? More calcium....
Choline Complex 1.2g Complex....hmm
Bioflavonoids (citrus) 1g Nice!
Animal Pak Essential Fatty Acid Complex
Linoleic Acid 200mg Oh please
Oleic Acid 100mg
Animal Pak Digestive Enzymes
Betaine HCl 200mg
Pepsin 64mg
Papain 64mg
Ox Bile (bovine) 120mg
Pancreatin 700mg
Mycozyme 64mg

what's everyone's take on CEE vs. Monohydrate

Micronized creatine monohydrate.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ Nice info...
Do you like the ala in animal pak?
Also why do you say PABA is good i could find no evidence it did anything...in fact i found study saying it wasnt necessary for human health. What will it do for us in a supp?
Your take on inosine? Found info saying based on studies it may actually impair athletic activity.
Oh the CoB12 ....isnt that usually dosed high because oral absorption rate is extremely low??
reg b12- rda is 6mcg isnt it?

Thanks for posting and sharing good info in this thread...look forward to your response.

[IM708]

Do you like the ala in animal pak?

Are you referring to the Linoleic Acid? I don't know if thats CLA or ALA. Either way you need higher dosages than that for them to be beneficial. They will help the vitamins absorb but other than that they won't do that much. CLA minimum effective dosage sits at around 3.4g per day, 17x higher than what this supp is supplying. ALA is ***** 3 the closer you can get to 1:1 of ***** 3:6 the better, .2g won't cut it.

Also why do you say PABA is good i could find no evidence it did anything...in fact i found study saying it wasnt necessary for human health. What will it do for us in a supp?

The PABA dosage is good and it also aids with the bodies use of proteins.

inosine

There isn't any conclusive scientific evidence to say that it is beneficial to athletic performance. If people need their snake oil to perform at there best then they might as well take it.

Oh the CoB12 ....isnt that usually dosed high because oral absorption rate is extremely low??

Basically but its also in the active B12 form to so that definitely helps w/ absorption.

reg b12- rda is 6mcg isnt it?

Forget about RDA (3mcg btw), thats the amount it takes for a person to consume daily to keep them from getting sickly and diseased from malnourishment. Cyanobalamin is a cheap synthetic form that doesn't absorb very well compared to methlycobalamin. Water soluble so unless you are doing very high dosage injections there are no sides, even then the only sides are skin issues.

[jimmyinkedup]

Are you referring to the Linoleic Acid? I don't know if thats CLA or ALA. Either way you need higher dosages than that for them to be beneficial. They will help the vitamins absorb but other than that they won't do that much. CLA minimum effective dosage sits at around 3.4g per day, 17x higher than what this supp is supplying. ALA is ***** 3 the closer you can get to 1:1 of ***** 3:6 the better, .2g won't cut it.

Thiotic acid - 200 mgs ala ...what do u think?

The PABA dosage is good and it also aids with the bodies use of proteins.
Thats what i was hoping to learn ..what it did - studies i found said it isnt necessary - doesnt mean it wont help in some areas.

Inosine - There isn't any conclusive scientific evidence to say that it is beneficial to athletic performance. If people need their snake oil to perform at there best then they might as well take it.So what i read was right no proof it does anything GTK

CoB12 dosage high b/c of poor absorbtion . Basically but its also in the active B12 form to so that definitely helps w/ absorption. So not bad poss just unnecessary at that high a dose

reg b12 rda is 6mcg. Forget about RDA (3mcg btw), thats the amount it takes for a person to consume daily to keep them from getting sickly and diseased from malnourishment. Cyanobalamin is a cheap synthetic form that doesn't absorb very well compared to methlycobalamin. Water soluble so unless you are doing very high dosage injections there are no sides, even then the only sides are skin issues.
so help me out here - it shouldnt even be need than b/c they already have methlycobalamin at 10mcg?? and even though methylcobalamin is poorly absorbed cyanobalamin is even more poorly absorbed?[ Is that correct or in your opion is 10mg methylcobalamin and 6mg cyanobalamin adequate - i guess thats the bottom line.

Thanks again ...good info

[RATTLEHEAD]

inosine is in a ton of "energy" drinks these days. then again so is taurine and at high doses, taurine is the exact opposite of an energy supplement. I hate energy drinks. Those things have more false promises than terrible parents. what a scam... +1 for high fructose corn syrup, -1 for the consumer.

[IM708]

Thiotic acid - 200 mgs ala ...what do u think?

Dosage is good, could be higher but it is at an acceptable level. Energy enhancer.

so help me out here - it shouldnt even be need than b/c they already have methlycobalamin at 10mcg?? and even though methylcobalamin is poorly absorbed cyanobalamin is even more poorly absorbed?[ Is that correct or in your opion is 10mg methylcobalamin and 6mg cyanobalamin adequate - i guess thats the bottom line.

You got to read the fine print, they put 10 mg of CoB12 in there, thats ALOT. 10,000 mcg of B12= 3333 x rda. So no the 6 mcg of cyanobalamin isn't needed but it would be more cost effective for the company to leave it in there. If the info is correct on the net for the product then those dosages are fine.

methylcobalamin is poorly absorbed cyanobalamin is even more poorly absorbed?[

Yep

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ thanks for the input ...