Misunderstandings on Protein Shake Supplementation

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

This is probably going to be a controversial post but I think far too many bodybuilders use excessive protein in the misguided belief that high amounts are required to build muscle.

There is very little scientific evidence that protein intakes higher than .8 - 1.0 g./lb. will increase muscle growth. I always use the analogy of Gorillas to back this argument. Gorillas have a 90% vegetarian diet and yet they have strength and musculature which is comparable to pro bodybuilders. Why? Quite simply gorillas produce high amounts of hormones which maintain cells in a positive nitrogen/anabolic state. It is therefore more important to have a steady, moderate intake of protein rather than high doses.

Having understood this you may think that to much protein is wasteful and expensive because the excess can be converted into glucose and used for energy (or stored as fat if there's a calorie surplus). This is true, but in the absence of large amounts of carbohydrates, it's the conversion of protein to glucose that helps bodybuilders get shreded. This is because the process is metabolically costly and it is for this reason I advocate high protein diets providing they are gradually taken throughout the day.

[BrokenBricks]

There are many differences between apes and humans. If I remember correctly a very large difference is that muscle insertions into their bones are further out along the lever arm and so much higher torque is possible. This is similar to how it is easier to push a door shut by applying force closer to the handle than it is by pushing closer to the hinges.

It also does not follow from the fact that their diet is mostly vegetarian ( I don't know it is, I take your word for it) that they would not be even stronger with more protein.

You made a statement claiming they are stronger because they have more anabolic hormones, if that is true (again, I don't know)...the statement you follow it with "therefore more important to have a steady moderate inkate of protein" has nothing to do with the first statement.


Ultimately if you want to confidently make a statement about the optimal protein intake for a man trying to get in shape you need to find a controlled well designed experiment testing different diet options and cite it.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

here we go again....

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

There are many differences between apes and humans. If I remember correctly a very large difference is that muscle insertions into their bones are further out along the lever arm and so much higher torque is possible. This is similar to how it is easier to push a door shut by applying force closer to the handle than it is by pushing closer to the hinges.

It also does not follow from the fact that their diet is mostly vegetarian ( I don't know it is, I take your word for it) that they would not be even stronger with more protein.

You made a statement claiming they are stronger because they have more anabolic hormones, if that is true (again, I don't know)...the statement you follow it with "therefore more important to have a steady moderate inkate of protein" has nothing to do with the first statement.


Ultimately if you want to confidently make a statement about the optimal protein intake for a man trying to get in shape you need to find a controlled well designed experiment testing different diet options and cite it.

In regards evidence regarding hormones diet check the following links.

Am. J. Primatol. 70:661-669, 2008.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_...
http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info...
My argument for steady moderate intake of protein is due to this is seen in the dietary habits discussed in the above links. I probably should have just said enough protein to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.

Appreciate your arguments regarding levers and limitations in comparing animals to humans but in evolutionary terms gorilla/apes are our closest relative (98 percent genetic similarity; Science, 6 Jan. 1995, pp. 35-36.).

Agreed about finding "a controlled well designed experiment" but that’s always the problem to little quality research and my statement still stands "There is very little scientific evidence that protein intakes higher than .8 - 1.0 g./lb. will increase muscle growth."

So while my analogy has (as you have highlighted) many limitations I believe it has some merit.

[MuscleScience]

Whats with these newbies copy and pasting articles they read from some nut blogger lately.

[DSM4Life]

Mike M.

[MuscleScience]

Thats why I try to get 1.5-2g/kg of protein in, instead of 1g/lbs of body weight so I can get more in......lol

[FireGuy]

Too lazy to write it all over again.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=371770

[BrokenBricks]

In regards evidence regarding hormones diet check the following links.

Am. J. Primatol. 70:661-669, 2008.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_...
http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info...
My argument for steady moderate intake of protein is due to this is seen in the dietary habits discussed in the above links. I probably should have just said enough protein to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.

Appreciate your arguments regarding levers and limitations in comparing animals to humans but in evolutionary terms gorilla/apes are our closest relative (98 percent genetic similarity; Science, 6 Jan. 1995, pp. 35-36.).

Agreed about finding "a controlled well designed experiment" but that’s always the problem to little quality research and my statement still stands "There is very little scientific evidence that protein intakes higher than .8 - 1.0 g./lb. will increase muscle growth."

So while my analogy has (as you have highlighted) many limitations I believe it has some merit.

That apes share 98% of their genes with us is a fact the implications of which are extremely misunderstood. Apes are not 98% similar to humans by virtually any standard of comparison. I am not saying you are making that error, but we have to be careful.

I do not know the state of research on this question so I am not saying you are wrong. I just would hesitate to dismiss the consensus of the weightlifting community based on the absence of a confirmatory study and an armchair evaluation of ape diets. If we saw a study showing the equivalence of high and mid range protein intake that would be a different story.

[seriousmass]

This is probably going to be a controversial post but I think far too many bodybuilders use excessive protein in the misguided belief that high amounts are required to build muscle.

There is very little scientific evidence that protein intakes higher than .8 - 1.0 g./lb. will increase muscle growth. I always use the analogy of Gorillas to back this argument. Gorillas have a 90% vegetarian diet and yet they have strength and musculature which is comparable to pro bodybuilders. Why? Quite simply gorillas produce high amounts of hormones which maintain cells in a positive nitrogen/anabolic state. It is therefore more important to have a steady, moderate intake of protein rather than high doses.

Having understood this you may think that to much protein is wasteful and expensive because the excess can be converted into glucose and used for energy (or stored as fat if there's a calorie surplus). This is true, but in the absence of large amounts of carbohydrates, it's the conversion of protein to glucose that helps bodybuilders get shreded. This is because the process is metabolically costly and it is for this reason I advocate high protein diets providing they are gradually taken throughout the day.

You and Muhammad should start a conspiracy theory website

Terrible example by the way. There is no validity in that argument whatsoever. Moreover, your attempt to correlate a primates vegetarian diet with a man's is extremely lacking. Sorry buds...

back to the drawing board..

[FallenWyvern]

Too lazy to write it all over again.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=371770

FireGuy's post in that thread was excellent.

[amcon]

That apes share 98% of their genes with us is a fact the implications of which are extremely misunderstood. Apes are not 98% similar to humans by virtually any standard of comparison. I am not saying you are making that error, but we have to be careful.

I do not know the state of research on this question so I am not saying you are wrong. I just would hesitate to dismiss the consensus of the weightlifting community based on the absence of a confirmatory study and an armchair evaluation of ape diets. If we saw a study showing the equivalence of high and mid range protein intake that would be a different story.

know fact : if you want me to look it up i will put in the time however i am also being lazy, and just for kicks i will tell (doctor, im guessing) op what is up...
some fernz (yes a plant) are closer to humans than apes... they acutally have more cromozones than humans - point is that 98% is wayyyy offfff the scale for being a good comparison... (if i put 2% dog poop in you protein drink would you drink it? offer it to you children? 2% is a lot... lets move on)

articles upon articles of info from people who have lived the study... lived it!! not researching something to disprove it before the study started. so studies are a dime a dozen... point is "do you really believe every thing you read?" lets move on...

the support for protein has been not just from the body building world... and clearly it is working for them (1 - 2 g per lb of body weight) it has come from the cycling world as well... an over trained (based on work load, resting HR, and power out put, as well as precieved effort) can do three seperate things to fix that, #1 rest (5 - 10 days), #2 active recovery (3 - 6 days) or #3 eat 1 - 1.5 g per body weight to recover in 2 - 3 days

now from my own personal experence - and the only one that counts (as for i am the one that puts food in my mouth ) if i am not following my protein intake and lets say i only eat 100 g a day for a few days i get soar much quicker dont recover as fast... and my power out put and hr increase - that is for cycling. as for lifting it takes me days longer to recover...

so to end all of this protein in amounts of 1 - 1.5 are the correct #s for active intense athletes... zip zip

btw - op are you a doc or doc in trainning?

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

I agree fireguy's post is excellent. I guess that's the difference between a newbie and a senior member.

[BrokenBricks]

know fact : if you want me to look it up i will put in the time however i am also being lazy, and just for kicks i will tell (doctor, im guessing) op what is up...
some fernz (yes a plant) are closer to humans than apes... they acutally have more cromozones than humans - point is that 98% is wayyyy offfff the scale for being a good comparison... (if i put 2% dog poop in you protein drink would you drink it? offer it to you children? 2% is a lot... lets move on)

articles upon articles of info from people who have lived the study... lived it!! not researching something to disprove it before the study started. so studies are a dime a dozen... point is "do you really believe every thing you read?" lets move on...

the support for protein has been not just from the body building world... and clearly it is working for them (1 - 2 g per lb of body weight) it has come from the cycling world as well... an over trained (based on work load, resting HR, and power out put, as well as precieved effort) can do three seperate things to fix that, #1 rest (5 - 10 days), #2 active recovery (3 - 6 days) or #3 eat 1 - 1.5 g per body weight to recover in 2 - 3 days

now from my own personal experence - and the only one that counts (as for i am the one that puts food in my mouth ) if i am not following my protein intake and lets say i only eat 100 g a day for a few days i get soar much quicker dont recover as fast... and my power out put and hr increase - that is for cycling. as for lifting it takes me days longer to recover...

so to end all of this protein in amounts of 1 - 1.5 are the correct #s for active intense athletes... zip zip

btw - op are you a doc or doc in trainning?

Jules: "English, motherf*cker, do you speak it?"

[amcon]

Jules: "English, motherf*cker, do you speak it?"

your just flaming cause your a doc too, you dont like my english to bad... take you dotorial degree and read it over and over - but just remember i'll eat you lunch all day.

where in docs school did they teach you that vocabulary ? hummm... education does not show intelligence or def not (in your case ) any wisdom.

and sorry for calling you out in that other thread i am just tired of know it all's... but, i just like to take the bs out of what you were saying

o btw, i have been drinking the albuterall it works great... you knowedge

[BrokenBricks]

your just flaming cause your a doc too, you dont like my english to bad... take you dotorial degree and read it over and over - but just remember i'll eat you lunch all day.

where in docs school did they teach you that vocabulary ? hummm... education does not show intelligence or def not (in your case ) any wisdom.

and sorry for calling you out in that other thread i am just tired of know it all's... but, i just like to take the

o btw, i have been drinking the albuterall it works great... you knowedge

I really hope this guy is a foreigner. Without sarcasm, I truly feel sorry for this guy.

[amcon]

lol, funny that i hurt your feelings so bad that you are singling me out... he he he do you know what that means...

and - try some of that hgh to get a little taller, i can tell you def have small mans syndrome

good luck bro

[BrokenBricks]

lol, funny that i hurt your feelings so bad that you are singling me out... he he he do you know what that means...

and - try some of that hgh to get a little taller, i can tell you def have small mans syndrome

good luck bro

Much better. For that monumental effort I'll respond. I am 6"2, bench 315 and my man parts are so aesthetically divine that Queen Elizabeth made it the official position of Great Britain that *my* my family jewels were more regal than her families jewels.

Why does that smiley face man have a sunburned butt?

[amcon]

Much better. For that monumental effort I'll respond. I am 6"2, bench 315 and my man parts are so aesthetically divine that Queen Elizabeth made it the official position of Great Britain that *my* my family jewels were more regal than her families jewels.

Why does that smiley face man have a sunburned butt?

must be from your family jews shine so bright... well, you have some other deficincy that causes you to feel small??? were you beat up a lot as a kid by your little sister? (and look i dont mind helping you on this...)

[amcon]

i just googled your name and came up with this must see video of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqnXW...eature=related

[GusInc]

Yo where's that article about how milk is supposed to be utterly terrible for your bones

I live by that article... 1 gallon down every 2 days only no broken bones yet.... LIES

[Nooomoto]

What about Big Ron? Anyone see how much protein he takes in? You should go tell him that all that protein he takes in isn't doing anything.

[brutesinme]

This is probably going to be a controversial post but I think far too many bodybuilders use excessive protein in the misguided belief that high amounts are required to build muscle.

There is very little scientific evidence that protein intakes higher than .8 - 1.0 g./lb. will increase muscle growth. I always use the analogy of Gorillas to back this argument. Gorillas have a 90% vegetarian diet and yet they have strength and musculature which is comparable to pro bodybuilders. Why? Quite simply gorillas produce high amounts of hormones which maintain cells in a positive nitrogen/anabolic state. It is therefore more important to have a steady, moderate intake of protein rather than high doses.

Having understood this you may think that to much protein is wasteful and expensive because the excess can be converted into glucose and used for energy (or stored as fat if there's a calorie surplus). This is true, but in the absence of large amounts of carbohydrates, it's the conversion of protein to glucose that helps bodybuilders get shreded. This is because the process is metabolically costly and it is for this reason I advocate high protein diets providing they are gradually taken throughout the day.

What are you trying to say? Your paragraphs are all ****ed up and your logic doesn't follow. Gorillas have more hormones, so we should eat frequent moderate servings of protein?! How the hell do you think those ideas are connected?!? Did you cut and paste this or just paste random sentences together?

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

What about Big Ron? Anyone see how much protein he takes in? You should go tell him that all that protein he takes in isn't doing anything.

Have you read my post I didn't say it doesn't do anything.

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

What are you trying to say? Your paragraphs are all ****ed up and your logic doesn't follow. Gorillas have more hormones, so we should eat frequent moderate servings of protein?! How the hell do you think those ideas are connected?!? Did you cut and paste this or just paste random sentences together?

Already answered this if you read the previous posts. evidence suggests you just need enough protein to maintain a positive nitrogen balance therefore frequent moderate servings of protein. Dude just reporting what the evidence suggests if you don't like it tough s..t.

[ghettoboyd]

Whats with these newbies copy and pasting articles they read from some nut blogger lately.

some peeps just want to be the smartest guy here i guess.thay come here thinking thay already are and seem to want to challenge the knowledge of others.we all can cut and paste drivell like this for the sake of debate but i and many others here like to keep it real.

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

some peeps just want to be the smartest guy here i guess.thay come here thinking thay already are and seem to want to challenge the knowledge of others.we all can cut and paste drivell like this for the sake of debate but i and many others here like to keep it real.

Please direct me to the blog reference to my post.

[Swifto]

Tell me...

What was the point of this thread?

By the way...

I'm a human, not an ape...

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

Tell me...

What was the point of this thread?

By the way...

I'm a human, not an ape...

Just demonstrating that high protein is not required to produce high levels of muscular hypertrophy.

[Swifto]

Just demonstrating that high protein is not required to produce high levels of muscular hypertrophy.

I agree that massive amounts of protein arnt needed.

Exccess protein can cause kidney problems, will be stored as fat and can lead to gastric problems.

1.5-2g per lb is what I suggest. 2g/lb being the highest limit.

I think far too many people use far too much protein.

You see guys floating or below 200lbs taking in 300-400g protein and wondering why there not cutting as much as they should be, or why they arnt lean bulking, even when taking in clean calories and sources of protein.

There is also no way the body can utilise large amounts of protein, taking in over 6 meals per day by only producing its own digestive enzymes. Added digestive enzymes are needed.

[higherdesire]

Milos sarcrev says he consumes 500g per day and he has one of the best physiques out there. At the end of the day it is a moving target. You have to dial in on the right combonation for your body through trial and error on yourself. 1.5 gram per day works great for me so long as I am training and maintaining a 45/35/20 ratio. BTW, I use supplemtnal digestive enzymes, good point.

[brutesinme]

Just demonstrating that high protein is not required to produce high levels of muscular hypertrophy.

you demonstrated nothing. nada. You posited your position and offered a absurd analogy to gorillas as proof. Some of us bros here have science degrees and understand what constitutes proof. You offered no proof; you offered nothing but an opinion poorly supported. That's why you are getting flamed.

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

you demonstrated nothing. Nada. You posited your position and offered a absurd analogy to gorillas as proof. Some of us bros here have science degrees and understand what constitutes proof. You offered no proof; you offered nothing but an opinion poorly supported. That's why you are getting flamed.

edited and warned

[RATTLEHEAD]

Final conclusion: Do exactly what you've been doing previously.

[jimmyinkedup]

id rather err on the side of more than i need than less - within reason. I have read quite a bit about it and Franco Columbu's bodybuilding nutrition book states he never consumed more than .5g/lb of body weight and while bulking he simply increased carbs...who knows for sure. Id either find out what works for you as an individual ...or err on the side of more than necessary - again within reason.....

[Swifto]

Listen up nob head just because I am a newbie doesn't mean I know shit. Science degree big deal doing an MSc and looking towards doing a doctorate. I have no respect for people who flame and don’t offer any rational argument in their rebuttal just abusive bollocks. The simple fact is that gorillas have a high degree of muscular hypertrophy on very little protein. If you preclude that high protein diets are necessary for muscular hypertrophy you need to give a scientific argument against this. Come on impress me with your science degree education.

Hypocrite too?

Your attitude is bullshit. Similar to your theories.

You wont last long here with that attidude.

Go read the Rules. Its evident your havent.

[Lifenutrition]

O .. this is great.

[DSM4Life]

Oh snapssss

[BrokenBricks]

you demonstrated nothing. Nada. You posited your position and offered a absurd analogy to gorillas as proof. Some of us bros here have science degrees and understand what constitutes proof. You offered no proof; you offered nothing but an opinion poorly supported. That's why you are getting flamed.

+1


bb

[MuscleScience]

If you have a science degree/s you absolutely have to understand that Gorillas and humans have different physiology and have evolved in completely different environments. I agree with you that huge amounts of protein are not needed. I do not think thats even debatable in the literature. No one exactly knows what the number is.

I just think that you coming in here and getting pissed because people question your rational, some what discredits your position.

Plus Cattle never eat an ounce of protein in their natural lives after suckling, and Tigers never eat an ounce of carbs as adults.....LOL