BCAA's

[Biker84]

When's the best times to to take your bcaa's

[RaginCajun]

well, depends on how you are training. most take them prior to fasted cardio training in the morning and others drink/sip it through out the day. remember, your food and protein powders are full of BCAAs!

[Biker84]

I usually take the pill form 40min prior to training and first thing in the morning. I was curious if there was a more appropriate time to take them

[PrairieDawg]

I read an article to take them 20 minutes before a meal. The theory being amino's need real food to mobilize them in your system. With that being said, you shouldn't take them with a meal either because your food already contains all you need.

[slfmade]

I take mine before, during, and after fasted cardio.

[Standby]

i believe in taking them and 30-40g carbs after my work out then i do 45mins cardio and take my whey and more carbs then

[M302_Imola]

Some optimal times to take BCAA's IMO:

1. 1st thing in them morning - You have been fasting overnight so cortisol is at its' highest during this time...choking down some BCAA's will help defend catabolism.
2. PWO - Again, cortisol levels are very high during this time
3. Before fasted cardio
4. Between meals if meals are spaced out for 3+ hours

Note: BCAA's are best absorbed on an relatively empty stomach and should be taken 15-20 mins before meals so competition for absorption is avoided.

[Biker84]

Great info! Thanks boys!

[Times Roman]

i buy powder, a kilo at a time. usually before and during workout i'll be sipping on it

[Biker84]

i buy powder, a kilo at a time. usually before and during workout i'll be sipping on it

How much does a kilo run you?

[jp_2011]

I have read afew things about BCAAs and when to take them, one thing that kept popping up was to take them before fasted cardio in the morning, however a bodybuilder i know (very knowledgable and highly respected former mr britain) told me that it is a mistake to do that as BCAAs can easily be converted into a source of energy and be used to fuel the cardio, therefore diminishing the fat burning effects of the cardio.
I always take them during and after training weights

[-KJ-]

I have read afew things about BCAAs and when to take them, one thing that kept popping up was to take them before fasted cardio in the morning, however a bodybuilder i know (very knowledgable and highly respected former mr britain) told me that it is a mistake to do that as BCAAs can easily be converted into a source of energy and be used to fuel the cardio, therefore diminishing the fat burning effects of the cardio.
I always take them during and after training weights

^^ Interesting

[M302_Imola]

I have read afew things about BCAAs and when to take them, one thing that kept popping up was to take them before fasted cardio in the morning, however a bodybuilder i know (very knowledgable and highly respected former mr britain) told me that it is a mistake to do that as BCAAs can easily be converted into a source of energy and be used to fuel the cardio, therefore diminishing the fat burning effects of the cardio.
I always take them during and after training weights

Well let's be honest, this former mr. Britain is probably on enough gear to fuel a space shuttle so of course he's not going to see catabolism from some fasted cardio. Now for the most of us a small amount of BCAA's (~5g) will help with catabolism during fast cardio and still allow some ffa's to be burnt up in the process.

[Times Roman]

How much does a kilo run you?

cheap!

pm me and i'll send you the link where i go...

[jp_2011]

Well let's be honest, this former mr. Britain is probably on enough gear to fuel a space shuttle so of course he's not going to see catabolism from some fasted cardio. Now for the most of us a small amount of BCAA's (~5g) will help with catabolism during fast cardio and still allow some ffa's to be burnt up in the process.

Ye you are probably right about him being on alot of gear but in my opinion that wont make any difference. Regardless of what you take, catabolism will occur when dieting. The severaity of it will depend on your diet and training, for example 1 hour fasted cardio a day plus weight training while on very very low calories is going to cause some degree muscle loss wether your an amateur or a pro, but it will be less noticable if you have alot of muscle. BCAAs are highly insulinogenic, which destroys the whole purpose of fasted cardio.

[M302_Imola]

Ye you are probably right about him being on alot of gear but in my opinion that wont make any difference. Regardless of what you take, catabolism will occur when dieting. The severaity of it will depend on your diet and training, for example 1 hour fasted cardio a day plus weight training while on very very low calories is going to cause some degree muscle loss wether your an amateur or a pro, but it will be less noticable if you have alot of muscle. BCAAs are highly insulinogenic, which destroys the whole purpose of fasted cardio.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on what I've highlighted above. The whole reason bodybuilders use gear on a severe cut is to preserve muscle mass (aka hinder catabolism). Yes, a severe cut you will loss some muscle mass, but those on gear should lose far less. As far as BCAA's creating an insulin response, this is the 1st I've heard about this. BCAA's with no sugar added are nothing more than amino's aka proteins. Proteins don't cause a spike in insulin when taken alone.

[jp_2011]

Yes i agree that on gear, catabolism will be reduced but what i said was that even whilst on gear, it will still occur. The only difference is that it will be much less than if your not on gear.

Bcaa will cause an insulin reaction. Anything that has to be broken down by the body causes an insulin reaction of some degree.
In humans, after an overnight fast, bcaa can cause a temporary increase in insulin levels.
This insulin increase is enough to decrease Plasma Free Fatty Acid concentrations, however it's only able to slightly decrease blood glucose levels at this dosage.
Therefore even relatively small doses of the bcaa are able to signal for an increase in insulin in the body.

[Sicko]

I take them only post workout

[redz]

I use them before cardio especially if I`m doing my cardio right after a weight workout or first thing in the morning.

[M302_Imola]

I use them before cardio especially if I`m doing my cardio right after a weight workout or first thing in the morning.

Yeah me too and have never felt they have hindered fat loss.

[ifthatswhatittakes]

Okay I have never seen the info on there being a connection between BCAAs and insulin before can someone give more info? I am bulking but want to be clean in the process.

[DeadlyD]

Does anyone take them before bed as well?

[jp_2011]

Amino Acids can signal for a increase insulin levels in the human body. The branch chain amino acid leucine is specifically able to signal for an insulin increase in the human body.
The BCAAs are essential amino acids and thus cannot be manufactured in the human body, so we must get them from our diets from sources like red meat, dairy (milk cheese, and even whey protein supplements) and eggs on a somewhat regular basis.
They are in almost every source of protein that you eat. They make up almost 50% of the essential amino acids typically found in food, and are found in high levels in human muscle. There is considerable research and interest in what they can do for muscle building and overall human physiology. BCAAs have been a popular bodybuilding supplement for many years and the research is now showing that Leucine may have specific effects beyond the other branched chain amino acids. Much of the diet and fitness media is still relatively unaware of the research and effects of Leucine and the specific effect it can have on insulin.
The common held belief in the mainstream fitness media is that carbohydrates are necessary for insulin release. Although it's true that carbohydrates stimulate insulin release, they are not the only compounds that do so.
Most people know that the Branched Chain Amino Acids are important physiological regulators of metabolism and have an effect on muscle and muscle growth, but something that is not so well known is the effect that Leucine and the branched chain amino acids have on Insulin secretion.
It is well known in the scientific community that Leucine can acutely stimulate insulin secretion from the beta cells in the pancreas. This occurs in humans, rodents and all mammals. This however is not common knowledge among the diet and fitness media.
Insulin is a hormone found in the human body that is important in the regulation of carbohydrate, fat and protein metabolism. Insulin is considered a storage hormone. It's main effect is to cause cells in liver, muscle and fat tissue to take up blood glucose, and to stop the use of fat as an energy source and promote the storage of an energy surplus in the form of body fat.
In humans, after an overnight fast even 1 gram of branched chain amino acids can cause a temporary increase in insulin levels.
This insulin increase is enough to decrease Plasma Free Fatty Acid concentrations, however it's only able to slightly decrease blood glucose levels at this dosage.
Therefore even relatively small doses of the branch chain amino acids and leucine are able to signal for an increase in insulin in the human body.
The fact that protein can stimulate insulin release makes it obvious that all three macro-nutrients (Proteins, Carbohydrates and fats) are able to signal the body in multiple ways when there is an excess. It is also an indication that amino acids can signal for growth in more than just muscle, seeing as Insulin is a non-selective 'growth' hormone - meaning it can signal for an increase fat mass just as easily (probably even to a much higher degree) then it does for an increase in muscle mass.
In truth, the amount of protein you eat really depends on your aims, goals and current training level, amount of lean mass and maybe most importantly how much protein you typically eat already. However, that being said, you do need to be aware that much of the myths about protein (such as that it can't be stored as fat, or does not stimulate insulin) are in fact innacurate.

[jasc]

Amino Acids can signal for a increase insulin levels in the human body. The branch chain amino acid leucine is specifically able to signal for an insulin increase in the human body.
The BCAAs are essential amino acids and thus cannot be manufactured in the human body, so we must get them from our diets from sources like red meat, dairy (milk cheese, and even whey protein supplements) and eggs on a somewhat regular basis.
They are in almost every source of protein that you eat. They make up almost 50% of the essential amino acids typically found in food, and are found in high levels in human muscle. There is considerable research and interest in what they can do for muscle building and overall human physiology. BCAAs have been a popular bodybuilding supplement for many years and the research is now showing that Leucine may have specific effects beyond the other branched chain amino acids. Much of the diet and fitness media is still relatively unaware of the research and effects of Leucine and the specific effect it can have on insulin.
The common held belief in the mainstream fitness media is that carbohydrates are necessary for insulin release. Although it's true that carbohydrates stimulate insulin release, they are not the only compounds that do so.
Most people know that the Branched Chain Amino Acids are important physiological regulators of metabolism and have an effect on muscle and muscle growth, but something that is not so well known is the effect that Leucine and the branched chain amino acids have on Insulin secretion.
It is well known in the scientific community that Leucine can acutely stimulate insulin secretion from the beta cells in the pancreas. This occurs in humans, rodents and all mammals. This however is not common knowledge among the diet and fitness media.
Insulin is a hormone found in the human body that is important in the regulation of carbohydrate, fat and protein metabolism. Insulin is considered a storage hormone. It's main effect is to cause cells in liver, muscle and fat tissue to take up blood glucose, and to stop the use of fat as an energy source and promote the storage of an energy surplus in the form of body fat.
In humans, after an overnight fast even 1 gram of branched chain amino acids can cause a temporary increase in insulin levels.
This insulin increase is enough to decrease Plasma Free Fatty Acid concentrations, however it's only able to slightly decrease blood glucose levels at this dosage.
Therefore even relatively small doses of the branch chain amino acids and leucine are able to signal for an increase in insulin in the human body.
The fact that protein can stimulate insulin release makes it obvious that all three macro-nutrients (Proteins, Carbohydrates and fats) are able to signal the body in multiple ways when there is an excess. It is also an indication that amino acids can signal for growth in more than just muscle, seeing as Insulin is a non-selective 'growth' hormone - meaning it can signal for an increase fat mass just as easily (probably even to a much higher degree) then it does for an increase in muscle mass.
In truth, the amount of protein you eat really depends on your aims, goals and current training level, amount of lean mass and maybe most importantly how much protein you typically eat already. However, that being said, you do need to be aware that much of the myths about protein (such as that it can't be stored as fat, or does not stimulate insulin) are in fact innacurate.

Excellent post

[eiff]

IMO BCAA's are mainly beneficial if you're wanting to stimulate protein synthesis or prevent catabolism but don't want to ingest unnecessary calories. For example: in the middle of a workout (a mid-workout shake makes me wanna barf) or doing something fasted (easily morning cardio, etc). But it doesn't seem like there's a lot of benefit any other time. Whey protein is about 25% BCAA, so if you're having a shake, you're covered.

[Biker84]

IMO BCAA's are mainly beneficial if you're wanting to stimulate protein synthesis or prevent catabolism but don't want to ingest unnecessary calories. For example: in the middle of a workout (a mid-workout shake makes me wanna barf) or doing something fasted (easily morning cardio, etc). But it doesn't seem like there's a lot of benefit any other time. Whey protein is about 25% BCAA, so if you're having a shake, you're covered.

So, u would suggest taking bcaa's while doing fasted cardio. I take the pills. So should I take a few right before then some halfway threw my cardio session?

[eiff]

So, u would suggest taking bcaa's while doing fasted cardio. I take the pills. So should I take a few right before then some halfway threw my cardio session?

A lot of guys (including myself) take some BCAA's during fasted cardio as a safe guard against muscle loss. It's definitely debatable if you'll lose any muscle during fasted cardio regardless as long as you're getting sufficient calories throughout the day. But they're cheap, so why take the chance. I do a powder and sip it while on the treadmill when fasted. But as long as we're talking less than an hour total, it's not necessary to have them before and during. Just whatever's most convenient. If it were me, I would take however many pills would equal around 10 g BCAA beforehand and then eat something afterwards.

[Biker84]

A lot of guys (including myself) take some BCAA's during fasted cardio as a safe guard against muscle loss. It's definitely debatable if you'll lose any muscle during fasted cardio regardless as long as you're getting sufficient calories throughout the day. But they're cheap, so why take the chance. I do a powder and sip it while on the treadmill when fasted. But as long as we're talking less than an hour total, it's not necessary to have them before and during. Just whatever's most convenient. If it were me, I would take however many pills would equal around 10 g BCAA beforehand and then eat something afterwards.

Alright, sounds like a plan thanks bud.

[oatmeal69]

Does anyone take them before bed as well?

I do. My reading leads me to believe this: They are the amino acids which cannot be synthesized by the body. BCAA's supplement the protein already in your body, making more of it "complete" and available to build tissue. It isn't so much WHEN, but that there's a steady stream available.

[jp_2011]

So, u would suggest taking bcaa's while doing fasted cardio. I take the pills. So should I take a few right before then some halfway threw my cardio session?

There is a reason that morning cardio in your fasted state from the night is so effective. It is becasue your blood glucose levels have gone down and so has your insulin. In fact you are in a insulin deficit upon waking and that is why lab glucose readings are taken with you in a fasted state to check for type II diabetes.
It is well known that fat burning does not happen in the presence of insulin. It is also understood that glucose causes its release into the blood stream. Once that happens fat burning or more specifically the release of fatty acids from our bodies into the blood stream to be used as fuel is stopped. As far as how sensitive our panaceas is to glucose in our blood, 2 mg of carbs per 100ml is enough for the panceas to release insulin.
Now normally protein only has a very small effect on blood glucose levels and thus has only small effects on insulin release. But of the various aminos, BCAAs will trigger the largest release.
But beyond that there is an issue and it has to do with one of the reasons why morning cardio is so effective in the first place. You are at your lowest insulin levels. That means the most release of fatty acids and most effective burning of fat. Any amount of protein will trigger gluconeogenesis. You are burning the protein turned into glucose instead of fat and have also becasue of that effect it will cause your pancreas to release insulin in response to the blood glucose and effectively turn off your fatty acid release and hinder fat burning ability.
So if you actually want to use morning cardio as a effective way to burn fat the best way you can do it is in the fasted state.
When fasted cardio is done, fatty acids release into the bloodstream and fat burning begins, anything taken in during fasted cardio apart from water will stop the fatty acids being released and any that have been released but not yet used will be reabsorbed.
Take them straight after with your breakfast, then before and after training. ZMA will be better to take before bed.

[Biker84]

There is a reason that morning cardio in your fasted state from the night is so effective. It is becasue your blood glucose levels have gone down and so has your insulin. In fact you are in a insulin deficit upon waking and that is why lab glucose readings are taken with you in a fasted state to check for type II diabetes.
It is well known that fat burning does not happen in the presence of insulin. It is also understood that glucose causes its release into the blood stream. Once that happens fat burning or more specifically the release of fatty acids from our bodies into the blood stream to be used as fuel is stopped. As far as how sensitive our panaceas is to glucose in our blood, 2 mg of carbs per 100ml is enough for the panceas to release insulin.
Now normally protein only has a very small effect on blood glucose levels and thus has only small effects on insulin release. But of the various aminos, BCAAs will trigger the largest release.
But beyond that there is an issue and it has to do with one of the reasons why morning cardio is so effective in the first place. You are at your lowest insulin levels. That means the most release of fatty acids and most effective burning of fat. Any amount of protein will trigger gluconeogenesis. You are burning the protein turned into glucose instead of fat and have also becasue of that effect it will cause your pancreas to release insulin in response to the blood glucose and effectively turn off your fatty acid release and hinder fat burning ability.
So if you actually want to use morning cardio as a effective way to burn fat the best way you can do it is in the fasted state.
When fasted cardio is done, fatty acids release into the bloodstream and fat burning begins, anything taken in during fasted cardio apart from water will stop the fatty acids being released and any that have been released but not yet used will be reabsorbed.
Take them straight after with your breakfast, then before and after training. ZMA will be better to take before bed.

Good post, thanks for the info!

[gbrice75]

I believe the level of insulin release triggered by consuming BCAA's while in the fasted state would be negligible at best, and not nearly enough to have any appreciable impact on lipolysis.

Martin Berkman over at Leangains concedes that BCAA's technically break a fast, but it's the 'lesser of 2 evils' with regards to training and/or doing cardio fasted. Note that the core of his program is fasting, and his research into the matter has been extensive.

I'd like to see some studies which show real numbers of the increase in blood glucose levels after ingesting BCAA's while in the fasted state. I'm certain we will see an increase; I am not convinced the increase will be anything groundbreaking.

In any event, thanks for the detailed info - always appreciate info backed up by research and/or real life experience.

[Bertuzzi]

Good thread with relevant info.... Thanks JP!

[Mark5]

From Wikipedia: "Insulin is produced in the pancreas and released when any of several stimuli are detected. These stimuli include ingested protein and glucose in the blood produced from digested food...Other substances known to stimulate insulin release include the amino acids arginine and leucine"

This information is not surprising, especially to someone who has researched the insulin index. When insulin is released, regardless of the amount, lipolysis stops and protein synthesis and lipogenesis can occur, though I would think with the minute amount of nutrients that comprise a serving of BCAAs that the period of insulin release would be short. If the goal is optimal fatty acid oxidation, then the cardio must be done completely fasted. Also gbrice, I'm assuming you meant you would like to see studies that show an increase in blood insulin levels (not blood glucose levels) after ingesting BCAA's in the fasted state, since BCAA's taken alone would not stimulate a rise in blood glucose since both glucagon and insulin would be released simultaneously in order to keep blood glucose levels stable.

[AD]

when cardio is done during a completely fasted state, energy has to come from somewhere. the body can either breakdown fat stores, or breakdown muscles to produce this energy. does the body have a preference which tissue to breakdown first? what factors induce the body to preferentially breakdown fat instead of muscle? a few factors that i think play a part are: intensity of cardio, total duration of cardio, and the speed at which the body can produce ATP from either breaking down muscle and breaking down fat. i believe these are the questions but i am not sure of the answers..

[M302_Imola]

I believe the level of insulin release triggered by consuming BCAA's while in the fasted state would be negligible at best, and not nearly enough to have any appreciable impact on lipolysis.

Martin Berkman over at Leangains concedes that BCAA's technically break a fast, but it's the 'lesser of 2 evils' with regards to training and/or doing cardio fasted. Note that the core of his program is fasting, and his research into the matter has been extensive.

I'd like to see some studies which show real numbers of the increase in blood glucose levels after ingesting BCAA's while in the fasted state. I'm certain we will see an increase; I am not convinced the increase will be anything groundbreaking.

In any event, thanks for the detailed info - always appreciate info backed up by research and/or real life experience.

I totally agree! BCAA's will trigger an insulin response but I believe this response will be so small it will not effect lipolysis. I've never performed cardio in the fasted state without consuming at least 5g of BCAA's and have had no trouble shedding the fat.

[Mark5]

when cardio is done during a completely fasted state, energy has to come from somewhere. the body can either breakdown fat stores, or breakdown muscles to produce this energy. does the body have a preference which tissue to breakdown first? what factors induce the body to preferentially breakdown fat instead of muscle? a few factors that i think play a part are: intensity of cardio, total duration of cardio, and the speed at which the body can produce ATP from either breaking down muscle and breaking down fat. i believe these are the questions but i am not sure of the answers..

The body definitely has a preference in its fuel source. ATP is produced in a much greater amount via beta oxidation (fat stores in the body) than through amino acids. The body does not want to use protein for fuel since carbohydrates and fats are so much more readily available and more efficient at producing ATP. It's my understanding that scientifically/on paper, the body will choose carbs and fat as its fuel source until stores are depleted and then turn to amino acids. In practice however, I question somewhat since myself and others that have done a strict ketogenic diet have noticed muscle size/strength loss. I think in general, the time spent doing fasted cardio is not enough to initiate the body to use amino acids for energy.