Ec stack

[nyamad]

What do you guys think about EC stack ( ephedrine and caffeine ).
Safe or not?

[Kk570h]

What do you guys think about EC stack ( ephedrine and caffeine ).
Safe or not?

What do you mean by safe?

[nyamad]

I have read about it, and they say i can be dangerous for the heart.
Im like at 13% bodyfat, wanna get lean with An EC stack an a good diet .

[thex95]

EC is fine, I don't know why you wouldn't just use a complete ECA stack. If you take proper doses its completely safe, ANYTHING can be dangerous if taken in extremely high doses.

[nyamad]

Oh yeah? Well i don't know what does the aspirin provide ?

[falco21]

EC is fine, I don't know why you wouldn't just use a complete ECA stack. If you take proper doses its completely safe, ANYTHING can be dangerous if taken in extremely high doses.

Many people remove the Aspirin from the stack due to its ill effects on the stomach. I did an EC stack about a year ago and get awesome results!

[Kk570h]

Oh yeah? Well i don't know what does the aspirin provide ?

Good question , I really don't know what it provides I just know the mixture of the 3 is blowout

[falco21]

Good question , I really don't know what it provides I just know the mixture of the 3 is blowout

It's the A in the acronym

[Sgt. Hartman]

The recommended ECA stack is 25mg ephedrine, 200mg caffeine, and 80mg aspirin. 80mg of aspirin will hardly upset your stomach and there are many other health benefits to taking baby aspirin everyday as well.

Look for St Joseph asprin or baby aspirin which usually comes in 81mg tabs. If 81mg of aspirin upsets your stomach you need to see a GI.

The purpose of aspirin in ECA stack quoted from Stem: Ephedrine-caffeine stimulates noradrenaline secretion, which then stimulates activity of cyclic AMP. Caffeine inhibits phosphodiesterase, the enzyme that metabolizes cyclic AMP, and thereby enhances noradrenaline. Aspirin enhances noradrenaline activity by inhibiting adenosine, which is involved in noradrenaline inactivation.

[falco21]

Aspirin inhibits the synthesis of peripheral prostaglandins.

Although, aspirin has never shown increased lipolysis in any studies performed. (So I have read)

[falco21]

The recommended ECA stack is 25mg ephedrine, 200mg caffeine, and 80mg aspirin. 80mg of aspirin will hardly upset your stomach and there are many other health benefits to taking baby aspirin everyday as well.

Look for St Joseph asprin or baby aspirin which usually comes in 81mg tabs. If 81mg of aspirin upsets your stomach you need to see a GI.

The purpose of aspirin in ECA stack quoted from Stem: Ephedrine-caffeine stimulates noradrenaline secretion, which then stimulates activity of cyclic AMP. Caffeine inhibits phosphodiesterase, the enzyme that metabolizes cyclic AMP, and thereby enhances noradrenaline. Aspirin enhances noradrenaline activity by inhibiting adenosine, which is involved in noradrenaline inactivation.

Studies show otherwise:

article written by Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH
and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN. All credit should go to them

Aspirin

"Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and it's naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)-- found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta-- have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The "A" portion of eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London's Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

In another study conducted at King's College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it's analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack."

6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.






Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine's effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin's effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.


There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. Ed Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.

[Kk570h]

The recommended ECA stack is 25mg ephedrine, 200mg caffeine, and 80mg aspirin. 80mg of aspirin will hardly upset your stomach and there are many other health benefits to taking baby aspirin everyday as well.

Look for St Joseph asprin or baby aspirin which usually comes in 81mg tabs. If 81mg of aspirin upsets your stomach you need to see a GI.

The purpose of aspirin in ECA stack quoted from Stem: Ephedrine-caffeine stimulates noradrenaline secretion, which then stimulates activity of cyclic AMP. Caffeine inhibits phosphodiesterase, the enzyme that metabolizes cyclic AMP, and thereby enhances noradrenaline. Aspirin enhances noradrenaline activity by inhibiting adenosine, which is involved in noradrenaline inactivation.

And translation for those of us without a doctrine in ECA ?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Studies show otherwise:

article written by Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH
and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN. All credit should go to them

Aspirin

"Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and it's naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)-- found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta-- have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The "A" portion of eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London's Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

In another study conducted at King's College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it's analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack."

6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.






Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine's effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin's effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.


There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. Ed Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.

I'm tired and about to go to bed but for for every study you find that shows it's not beneficial I'll show you ten that show it is in the doses that I recommended. Keep in mind that the study you posted was done on people who took 300mg of aspirin which for obvious reasons is counter-productive to an ECA stack.

And translation for those of us without a doctrine in ECA ?

“Aspirin is included in the ECA stack to help prolong the effects of ephedrine. Basically as a normalizing procedure the body reacts to ephedrine by producing prostaglandins and adenosine outside the cell, and phosphodiesterase inside the cell. Inside the cell, it has been found that methylxanthines, like caffeine, inhibit the activities of phosphodiesterase. Stimulation of the beta receptors by ephedrine (via noradrenaline) causes an increase of cAMP (cyclic adenosine monophosphate) within the cell. This crucial part of the process that leads to thermogenesis is vulnerable because cAMP is degraded by phosphodiesterase. Outside the cell, aspirin inhibits the peripheral synthesis of prostaglandins. Prostaglandins inhibit the release of noradrenaline in the synaptic junction (before receptor stimulation). So in other words without aspirin (and caffeine), the beta agonistic qualities of ephedrine (via noradrenaline) are practically negated by prostaglandins.”

[Kk570h]

Gotchyaa , thanks dude now you've explained it on a level I can take in lol

[falco21]

I'm tired and about to go to bed but for for every study you find that shows it's not beneficial I'll show you ten that show it is in the doses that I recommended. Keep in mind that the study you posted was done on people who took 300mg of aspirin which for obvious reasons is counter-productive to an ECA stack.

I completely agree with you, but just like you said, you can show me "ten" for every one I show, I can also show you "ten" for every one you show. It's a never ending battle.

Personally, I think it is terrible for my stomach and over time can destroy the stomach lining. I had GREAT results with just an Ephedrine and Caffeine stack, so the Aspirin didn't make any difference for me.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Agreed on the contradictory studies.

My personal experience is different than yours. I feel like my eca wears off after an hour and never really peaks without the aspirin.

80mg of aspirin shouldn't be an issue for anyone who doesn't have pre-existing stomach issues and I've never read anything saying it's counterproductive to an ec stack in terms of lipolysis.

[slfmade]

I agree with SGT.

And you've also gotta understand. ECA was an OTC product at one time before the ban. I used to buy it at wal-mart. There was a reason that somebody smarter than myself (or you) put it in there to begin with. ECA is tried and true.

[Noles12]

I agree with SGT.

And you've also gotta understand. ECA was an OTC product at one time before the ban. I used to buy it at wal-mart. There was a reason that somebody smarter than myself (or you) put it in there to begin with. ECA is tried and true.

Ephedrine became ilegal due to its abuse and use it producing an illicit drug. It is great for fat loss. I prefer an ECA stack over clen /T3 because i get good results with less sides

[slfmade]

Ephedrine became ilegal due to its abuse and use it producing an illicit drug. It is great for fat loss. I prefer an ECA stack over clen/T3 because i get good results with less sides

I actually get less sides when clen than ECA. I can compare ECA to an all out 4 hours sprint, and clen to a all day jog. I love ECA as a preworkout - It get's me going like a cracked out crazy person. There's no way I could work a job like that. Clen also seems a lot more steady instead of the ups and down I feel with ECA.

I guess at the end of the day it's "to each their own". Both do their job well and it's up to you which you can handle better.

[Noles12]

I actually get less sides when clen than ECA. I can compare ECA to an all out 4 hours sprint, and clen to a all day jog. I love ECA as a preworkout - It get's me going like a cracked out crazy person. There's no way I could work a job like that. Clen also seems a lot more steady instead of the ups and down I feel with ECA.

I guess at the end of the day it's "to each their own". Both do their job well and it's up to you which you can handle better.

I can kind of agree with what you are saying on the sprint and the jog. ECA is more of a crash for me and i have more difficulty sleeping at night but clen has the largest effect on my workouts. Clen gives me the worst muscles cramps no matter what i take or how much water i drink. Its frustrating not being able to finish sers because you start cramping. It also makes me much more shaky which effects everyday tasks for me.

But like you said to each their own. Just use what works best for you.

[slfmade]

I can kind of agree with what you are saying on the sprint and the jog. ECA is more of a crash for me and i have more difficulty sleeping at night but clen has the largest effect on my workouts. Clen gives me the worst muscles cramps no matter what i take or how much water i drink. Its frustrating not being able to finish sers because you start cramping. It also makes me much more shaky which effects everyday tasks for me.

But like you said to each their own. Just use what works best for you.

I've never really had a problem with the cramps. It's the headaches from clen that gets me. I deal with it though...I just take about 10 excedrine throughout the day on the days I bump my dose. By the next day...I'm fine and can do without the headache meds.

[M302_Imola]

Sgt. Hartman thank you for your scientific posts in this thread. I already knew a lot about ECA but you just increased my knowledge...good stuff bro!

[falco21]

I used Bronkaid for ephedrine when I did the stack. Is there another product you guys recommend for the Ephedrine? Just checking to see if maybe there is something more common that people use.

[Sgt. Hartman]

There's still some places you can legally buy real ephedra.

[nyamad]

Sgt. Hartman thank you for your scientific posts in this thread. I already knew a lot about ECA but you just increased my knowledge...good stuff bro!

Yeah! Thxxx !

[Marc Angelo]

What happened to yohimbe as a substitute to Aspirin? I am allergic to aspirin and cannot use it at all, never. Could EC be stack wity yohimbe? anyone has heard about that. I think I read a post many years ago about ecy versus eca, anyone?

[Back In Black]

What happened to yohimbe as a substitute to Aspirin? I am allergic to aspirin and cannot use it at all, never. Could EC be stack wity yohimbe? anyone has heard about that. I think I read a post many years ago about ecy versus eca, anyone?

An older post than this one you mean? Just do EC if you going to do it and forget the A.

[cj111]

My gf was taking clen and complaining of cramps, got her to pick up some taurine and supplement that daily, cramps went away.
Give it a shot if you experience cramps you got nothing to lose except feeling better

[< <Samson> >]

An older post than this one you mean? Just do EC if you going to do it and forget the A.

x2

Just add fish oil

[beefy_bod]

Dont bash on me or this haha but what's an RCA stack all talking for weightless like fatburner?

[farewel]

Do eca. Make sure you eat regularly though. Gets hard to remember to. Salads etc just something light to help metabolism to keep firing.

[M302_Imola]

I used Bronkaid for ephedrine when I did the stack. Is there another product you guys recommend for the Ephedrine? Just checking to see if maybe there is something more common that people use.

Looks like Walgreen's has discountinued "Bronkaid" so where are you guys getting your ephedrine from now?

[cj111]

Supplement stores should still sell eph in 8mg pills, because its considered a nasal decongestant, that's what it was invented for anyways. I just pick mine up at popeyes, 40$ for 12 bottles of 50 pills, cant beat it.

[bcaasdirty]

Looks like Walgreen's has discountinued "Bronkaid" so where are you guys getting your ephedrine from now?

Bronkaid has not been discontinued, but is on a nationwide recall for labeling error. According to their website, it should be back on shelves by the end of February. I have substited off to Primatene, which is 12.5mg E-HCL/200mg guafasein (WalGreens also has their own brand label, same thing 12.5 MG). The one thing I like about Primatene better is the tabs are not coated, so I can chew the pills up a lil bit before I swallow (this helps w/ getting the E to "hit" faster for me )

[slimshady01]

Agreed on the contradictory studies.

My personal experience is different than yours. I feel like my eca wears off after an hour and never really peaks without the aspirin.

80mg of aspirin shouldn't be an issue for anyone who doesn't have pre-existing stomach issues and I've never read anything saying it's counterproductive to an ec stack in terms of lipolysis.

WHats up brother!!

I just started EC on MOnday.. But your right I feel like its wearing off me fast.. I never tried aspirin.. IM going to get some now and see how it works.

IM also going 37.5 T3 a day as well... Nice low dose but ill run it longer..


Here is a pic of me today... I started the Dave Palumbo diet and EC stack Monday.. I wanted to cut this time with carbs but I just love how Palumbo keeps the water off me and keeps me dry. Plus I love my 400-600 Carb Sundays that I also do.

[bcaasdirty]

^^Lookn good bro

[cj111]

Question about the aspirin part of the ECA stack, I've used it lots over the years and swear by it.
I have a 325mg aspirin tab that I usually just bust in half, which is 165 mg per say, is that to much? I read one time taking more than 80mg of aspirin at a time actually hinders its effectiveness. Any truth behind this ?
Thanks

[bcaasdirty]

Question about the aspirin part of the ECA stack, I've used it lots over the years and swear by it.
I have a 325mg aspirin tab that I usually just bust in half, which is 165 mg per say, is that to much? I read one time taking more than 80mg of aspirin at a time actually hinders its effectiveness. Any truth behind this ?
Thanks

As far as hindering its effectiveness I'm not sure, but I doubt it would. I dose 81mg aspirin once per day, along with (3) 25mg doses of E, and (3) 200mg doses of C. Aspirin can be hard on the stomach for some people so theres the one 'advantage' I can think of for taking 81mg vs 165mg.

[< <Samson> >]

Really, no more Bronkaid? What about Primatene?

I used both, but like the coating on Bronkaid better. I guess if it was unobtainable retail I would just get the raw powder from a online source.

[cj111]

Ya I read taking more than 80 it doesn't affect you the same as with thinning of the blood, could be a load of hooey.
You're dosing 3x a day? Seems like a lot to me, I always stuck with twice a day and if I felt the need upped the dose a bit.