Carnitine or Acetil L carnitine to lose fat? And does this stuff work?

[belva]

In the past when I was under 25 I used several supplements hoping to get the edge....I took acetil L carnitina, not for losing weight but only because I read somewhere that it might increase testosterone levels...

Now I'm 28 and I'm useing roids..so I actually know the difference. I know that it is absolutely stupid to compare the effect of some roids as fat buring to what a supplement can give. However, I still believe that some fat burner supplements might work to some degree...

My question is:
What supplement do you take for fat burining?
Do you prefer Carnitine or Acetil L carnitine ?

[M302_Imola]

injectable L-Carnitine is great at increasing mitochondria activity in the cell thus leading to fat burn. The trick is getting it into the cell which requires either endogenous or exogenous insulin. The bioavailability of oral L-Carnitine is terrible thus injectable is the only way to go.

[belva]

Nice to know...just wondering how I'm gonna find Inj L- carnitine...

[austinite]

You don't need injectable carnitine. You can use Acetyl L-Carnitine for higher bioavailability.

[M302_Imola]

You don't need injectable carnitine. You can use Acetyl L-Carnitine for higher bioavailability.

Yes, but I promise you it won't touch injectable L-Carn...that is, if you can find or make injectable L-Carn.

[austinite]

Yes, but I promise you it won't touch injectable L-Carn...that is, if you can find or make injectable L-Carn.

I agree. Anything injectable is better. No secret there. But the amount of L-Carnitine needed to achieve decent results can be done orally, tabs or liquid ALCAR. Plus, for me personally, I wouldn't want to inject daily.

[M302_Imola]

I agree. Anything injectable is better. No secret there. But the amount of L-Carnitine needed to achieve decent results can be done orally, tabs or liquid ALCAR. Plus, for me personally, I wouldn't want to inject daily.

Not trying to argue here but from what I've read I just don't think the bioavailability of the oral form makes it worth taking. Plus you don't have to inject L-Carn everyday, in fact I only inject twice weekly. I am by no means trying to push injectable L-Carn on you, but I've researched and used it extensively so just stating the facts.

[belva]

I used ALCAR before and I think I'll go back to it

[austinite]

Not trying to argue here but from what I've read I just don't think the bioavailability of the oral form makes it worth taking. Plus you don't have to inject L-Carn everyday, in fact I only inject twice weekly. I am by no means trying to push injectable L-Carn on you, but I've researched and used it extensively so just stating the facts.

It's all good M302! I don't claim to be an expert, it's been a while since I've researched Carnitine (besides proving that the red meat study is flawed), that's partly why I didn't include it in my supplement thread, so maybe my memory is fading. I'm happy to go back to the books Thanks for your input.

[EarlyMuscles]

Where can I get injectable carnitine?

[M302_Imola]

It's all good M302! I don't claim to be an expert, it's been a while since I've researched Carnitine (besides proving that the red meat study is flawed), that's partly why I didn't include it in my supplement thread, so maybe my memory is fading. I'm happy to go back to the books Thanks for your input.

Glad you didn't take it as me being an ass so thank you for that. I'm just up to par on its info because I'm currently using it to help recomp and prime for my upcoming aas cycle.

Where can I get injectable carnitine?

Sorry can't help you there I make my own (which is quite a bitch) and I'm not interested in selling it (please no one PM me regarding this). The stuff isn't illegal so I'm sure it could be had on the internet.

[testluva]

Glad you didn't take it as me being an ass so thank you for that. I'm just up to par on its info because I'm currently using it to help recomp and prime for my upcoming aas cycle.

Sorry can't help you there I make my own (which is quite a bitch) and I'm not interested in selling it (please no one PM me regarding this). The stuff isn't illegal so I'm sure it could be had on the internet.

What dosage are you taking twice a week for fat burning?

[Quester]

From: An objective look at L-carnitine supplementation for fat-loss and enhanced performance | Calories in Context
"
Over the past 25-plus years carnitine has received a lot of attention, both from researchers and supplement companies alike. Indeed, both camps are interested in carnitine’s role in fat metabolism; however, it is for two very different reasons. Researchers are primarily interested in the ergogenic capacity that carnitine may have to offer endurance athletes – namely carnitine’s glycogen sparing effect via increased fat oxidation – while supplement companies (and consumers) are mostly interested in carnitine for increased fat oxidation to enhance fat-loss and improve body composition. Being the skeptic that I am, today I will evaluate both sides of the aisle and make some final comments and conclusions about whether or not it’s practical to take carnitine supplements, be it for performance purposes or weight loss endeavors. As always, I will begin with some background information (with a little biochemistry thrown in there), follow it up with the pertinent research, and then end with some closing remarks and applications. Let’s get to it!"
LATER IN ARTICLE:
"It is at this point that I would like to stop and regroup. The above paragraph is extremely important because it really lays out the basis (theoretically) for carnitine improving both performance and body composition. This however, operates under a couple of assumptions: 1) that carnitine translocation is the rate limiting step in fatty acid oxidation, meaning that; 2) increasing carnitine levels will equate to greater transport of fatty acids into the matrix and greater levels of oxidation; and lastly that, 3) you can indeed increase muscle levels of carnitine in the first place. Granted that all three of these factors are true, then yes, there may be a reasonable case for carnitine supplementation. The real question here is whether or not they hold up under scientific scrutiny."
AND CONCLUSION:
"Conclusions

Although it may be physically possible to increase muscle levels of carnitine using relatively large amounts of carbohydrate repeatedly throughout the day, the fact still remains that there is limited convincing data that shows that carnitine is a potent fat-burner or ergogenic aid. Furthermore, when practical limitations come into play, the usefulness of carnitine as a fat-burner is undoubtedly overshadowed by the well-known effects of a solid caloric deficit in combination with increased physical activity (usually in the form of cardio). I should also note that carnitine has been implicated in aiding recovery from resistance exercise in both young and middle-aged populations [14-16] as well as increasing androgen receptor (AR) synthesis and therefore increasing cellular uptake up testosterone following weight training. This potentially leads to the activation various muscle synthetic pathways [17]. However, despite the potential beneficial basis of carnitine supplementation for muscle recovery and hypertrophy there just isn’t enough convincing data that shows supplemental carnitine will do jack-diddly in terms of sizeable gains in muscle mass accretion. We just don’t have the long-term studies necessary to make that conclusion. Conversely, there is some convincing evidence that transient elevations in anabolic hormones (due to exercise) such as testosterone and growth hormone are not closely associated with increases in muscle mass [18-20]. Therefore, increasing AR synthesis and testosterone uptake may be trivial in the larger scope of things.

The bottom line is that the beneficial role of carnitine for either exercise (be it endurance or resistance) or fat burning in young, healthy populations (especially the athlete) are, at this stage, completely theoretical and, most likely, trivial at best."

The article above is not from a specific scientific study but summarizes the logical conclusions of other scientific studies. Therefore, it is a proper logical argument but that is all-it is not an end-all be-all scientific study to end all study on the subject. It does summarize all of the evidence out there in regard to carnitine for fat loss.


That being said, other sources say that in healthy people carnitine supplementation for fat loss shows no benefit.
From: L-Carnitine - In-Depth Scientific Supplement Information | Examine.com
6.1. Fat burning (Beta-oxidation)

"Despite its high prevalence and dependency for beta-oxidation, dietary and supplemental L-carnitine does not seem to positively influence fat metabolism unless the subject is in an otherwise deficient state.[116][117] Deficient states may include veganism and vegetarianism as well as older age, or conditions with a low dietary carnitine intake (from meats) or impaired carnitine utilization.[20] Basically, somebody who falls into one of the previously outlined deficiency states may benefit from carnitine supplementation in regards to fat loss."
I tolerate the presence of carnitine in the food I eat and my protein supplement but I try to limit it. That's just me. The latest scientific studies have shown a link between carnitine and atherosclerosis. The studies are solid and conducted by non-biased scientist. However, Carnitine has been shown in a multitude of studies to be beneficial in many different ways. Don't take anyones word for it. Read the info yourself, make sure that you read info from credible sources-not supplement companies. If you decide to supplement with carnitine and get atherosclerosis (or not) or get ripped it wont be because of carnitine it will be because you did your homework.
Here are a few places to start regarding atherosclerosis:
New Study Questions Carnitine Heart Risk
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vao...l/nm.3145.html
New culprit for red meat health risks | Chemistry World
Compound in Red Meat, Energy Drinks May Have Heart Disease Link – WebMD
Study: L-carnitine in red meat, not fats, causes heart disease
Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycho...gy/l-carni.htm

Here are a few about the good aspects of carnitine:

L-carnitine significantly improves patient outcomes following heart attack, study suggests
Top 12 Reasons to Use Carnitine | Poliquin Article
L-CARNITINE: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD
Carnitine: The Science Behind a Conditionally Essential Nutrient - Conference Summary

[Quester]

From: An objective look at L-carnitine supplementation for fat-loss and enhanced performance | Calories in Context
"
Over the past 25-plus years carnitine has received a lot of attention, both from researchers and supplement companies alike. Indeed, both camps are interested in carnitine’s role in fat metabolism; however, it is for two very different reasons. Researchers are primarily interested in the ergogenic capacity that carnitine may have to offer endurance athletes – namely carnitine’s glycogen sparing effect via increased fat oxidation – while supplement companies (and consumers) are mostly interested in carnitine for increased fat oxidation to enhance fat-loss and improve body composition. Being the skeptic that I am, today I will evaluate both sides of the aisle and make some final comments and conclusions about whether or not it’s practical to take carnitine supplements, be it for performance purposes or weight loss endeavors. As always, I will begin with some background information (with a little biochemistry thrown in there), follow it up with the pertinent research, and then end with some closing remarks and applications. Let’s get to it!"
LATER IN ARTICLE:
"It is at this point that I would like to stop and regroup. The above paragraph is extremely important because it really lays out the basis (theoretically) for carnitine improving both performance and body composition. This however, operates under a couple of assumptions: 1) that carnitine translocation is the rate limiting step in fatty acid oxidation, meaning that; 2) increasing carnitine levels will equate to greater transport of fatty acids into the matrix and greater levels of oxidation; and lastly that, 3) you can indeed increase muscle levels of carnitine in the first place. Granted that all three of these factors are true, then yes, there may be a reasonable case for carnitine supplementation. The real question here is whether or not they hold up under scientific scrutiny."
AND CONCLUSION:
"Conclusions

Although it may be physically possible to increase muscle levels of carnitine using relatively large amounts of carbohydrate repeatedly throughout the day, the fact still remains that there is limited convincing data that shows that carnitine is a potent fat-burner or ergogenic aid. Furthermore, when practical limitations come into play, the usefulness of carnitine as a fat-burner is undoubtedly overshadowed by the well-known effects of a solid caloric deficit in combination with increased physical activity (usually in the form of cardio). I should also note that carnitine has been implicated in aiding recovery from resistance exercise in both young and middle-aged populations [14-16] as well as increasing androgen receptor (AR) synthesis and therefore increasing cellular uptake up testosterone following weight training. This potentially leads to the activation various muscle synthetic pathways [17]. However, despite the potential beneficial basis of carnitine supplementation for muscle recovery and hypertrophy there just isn’t enough convincing data that shows supplemental carnitine will do jack-diddly in terms of sizeable gains in muscle mass accretion. We just don’t have the long-term studies necessary to make that conclusion. Conversely, there is some convincing evidence that transient elevations in anabolic hormones (due to exercise) such as testosterone and growth hormone are not closely associated with increases in muscle mass [18-20]. Therefore, increasing AR synthesis and testosterone uptake may be trivial in the larger scope of things.

The bottom line is that the beneficial role of carnitine for either exercise (be it endurance or resistance) or fat burning in young, healthy populations (especially the athlete) are, at this stage, completely theoretical and, most likely, trivial at best."

The article above is not from a specific scientific study but summarizes the logical conclusions of other scientific studies. Therefore, it is a proper logical argument but that is all-it is not an end-all be-all scientific study to end all study on the subject. It does summarize all of the evidence out there in regard to carnitine for fat loss.


That being said, other sources say that in healthy people carnitine supplementation for fat loss shows no benefit.
From: L-Carnitine - In-Depth Scientific Supplement Information | Examine.com
6.1. Fat burning (Beta-oxidation)

"Despite its high prevalence and dependency for beta-oxidation, dietary and supplemental L-carnitine does not seem to positively influence fat metabolism unless the subject is in an otherwise deficient state.[116][117] Deficient states may include veganism and vegetarianism as well as older age, or conditions with a low dietary carnitine intake (from meats) or impaired carnitine utilization.[20] Basically, somebody who falls into one of the previously outlined deficiency states may benefit from carnitine supplementation in regards to fat loss."
I tolerate the presence of carnitine in the food I eat and my protein supplement but I try to limit it. That's just me. The latest scientific studies have shown a link between carnitine and atherosclerosis. The studies are solid and conducted by non-biased scientist. However, Carnitine has been shown in a multitude of studies to be beneficial in many different ways. Don't take anyones word for it. Read the info yourself, make sure that you read info from credible sources-not supplement companies. If you decide to supplement with carnitine and get atherosclerosis (or not) or get ripped it wont be because of carnitine it will be because you did your homework.
Here are a few places to start regarding atherosclerosis:
New Study Questions Carnitine Heart Risk
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vao...l/nm.3145.html
New culprit for red meat health risks | Chemistry World
Compound in Red Meat, Energy Drinks May Have Heart Disease Link – WebMD
Study: L-carnitine in red meat, not fats, causes heart disease
Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycho...gy/l-carni.htm

Here are a few about the good aspects of carnitine:

L-carnitine significantly improves patient outcomes following heart attack, study suggests
Top 12 Reasons to Use Carnitine | Poliquin Article
L-CARNITINE: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD
Carnitine: The Science Behind a Conditionally Essential Nutrient - Conference Summary

[austinite]

That "Study" linking carnitine to heart disease is garbage and fruitless.

Here is a thread I posted about it: http://forums.steroid.com/supplement...carnitine.html

[Quester]

I would agree that there is a controversy if one existed. None exists, there are no studies to refute the multiple studies that link carnitine to Atherosclerosis. I respect your right to your opinion. But in the absence of credible scientific evidence, your opinion is your opinion. I respect your opinion and that this disagreement hasn't degraded into something less than an exchange of information, which is the reason why we are here, to exchange information. I didn't post to the link that you just put up because it was titled "Austinite's Thoughts," I respect your right to post your thoughts. But, what you are choosing to call garbage and fruitless is real scientific evidence, conducted by real scientist, in real universities and other real research institutions, reviewed by other real scientists, independent of funding by real big business; and here-to-fore unchallenged by other real scientists.

[austinite]

I would agree that there is a controversy if one existed. None exists, there are no studies to refute the multiple studies that link carnitine to Atherosclerosis. I respect your right to your opinion. But in the absence of credible scientific evidence, your opinion is your opinion. I respect your opinion and that this disagreement hasn't degraded into something less than an exchange of information, which is the reason why we are here, to exchange information. I didn't post to the link that you just put up because it was titled "Austinite's Thoughts," I respect your right to post your thoughts. But, what you are choosing to call garbage and fruitless is real scientific evidence, conducted by real scientist, in real universities and other real research institutions, reviewed by other real scientists, independent of funding by real big business; and here-to-fore unchallenged by other real scientists.

Sure. I understand. It is 100% an opinion, like you said, which is why I posted it as my thoughts. And I would hardly consider that study "Scientific". As a matter of fact, I think labelling it a "study", is an insult to those of us who research, rather than committing to "random statements" that some group decided to generate internet traffic off of. It's embarrassing, to say the least. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that "Study" is of poor quality and planning. I'm living proof that carnitine is perfectly healthy and safe.

There is no absence of credible scientific evidence. There are many legitimate studies done on Carnitine that would clearly and scientifically prove it's far more beneficial than harmful. How anyone could do a study with ONE vegan is beyond me. Besides, we would have to stop eating almost everything if that "Study" had any legitimacy to it. Quite silly, actually.

Again, that is my opinion and I respect yours.

[M302_Imola]

What dosage are you taking twice a week for fat burning?

My injectable L-Carn is 500mg/mL and I take 3mL twice weekly...so 1500mg per pin and 3000mg on the week.

[basketballfan22]

The link to the article in Nature Medicine is only an abstract. I wish it were the whole article. I have access to scholarly journals through my university, so I can try and post the whole article once I find it. The nerd in me loves this debate though.

[M302_Imola]

^^^ha ha there's a nerd in all of us. I graduated with a chemistry degree and biology minor.

[Zodiac82]

What dosage are you taking twice a week for fat burning?

this would depend on ur current weight and active level

My injectable L-Carn is 500mg/mL and I take 3mL twice weekly...so 1500mg per pin and 3000mg on the week.

thats my dose as well....did u load at 4500mg?

-Release the Kracken!!!-

[basketballfan22]

^^^ha ha there's a nerd in all of us. I graduated with a chemistry degree and biology minor.

That's great. I bet your chemistry degree helps you understand the compounds you put in your body. I have degrees in math and biology, and I hope to attend graduate school for my Ph.D. in math. I am super logical and just love knowledge in general. That is why I am so fond of this site. The amount of knowledge from members like you is impressive. I currently live in a small town, and no one is able to understand why I am so strict on my diet and routine. There are so many members here though that I can relate to.

[M302_Imola]

this would depend on ur current weight and active level

Yes this is correct...note, I'm around 200 lbs. @ 10% bf currently.

thats my dose as well....did u load at 4500mg?

-Release the Kracken!!!-

I loaded with 12ml so that would be 6000mg...that being said I'm sure 4500mg is plenty.

[M302_Imola]

That's great. I bet your chemistry degree helps you understand the compounds you put in your body. I have degrees in math and biology, and I hope to attend graduate school for my Ph.D. in math. I am super logical and just love knowledge in general. That is why I am so fond of this site. The amount of knowledge from members like you is impressive. I currently live in a small town, and no one is able to understand why I am so strict on my diet and routine. There are so many members here though that I can relate to.

Yeah people around me often wonder why I'm so OCD in what I put in my body...that's just who I am. Never want to take my health foregranted. I'm going to shoot you a PM.

[basketballfan22]

Yeah people around me often wonder why I'm so OCD in what I put in my body...that's just who I am. Never want to take my health foregranted. I'm going to shoot you a PM.

Thanks for the message M3. I really appreciate it.

[M302_Imola]

Thanks for the message M3. I really appreciate it.

no prob

[tigerspawn]

I would agree that there is a controversy if one existed. None exists, there are no studies to refute the multiple studies that link carnitine to Atherosclerosis.

RIP latest meat scare: Clinical studies show L-carnitine ‘improves patient outcomes following heart attack’ — So how could it cause atherosclerosis?



Results of systematic review of 13 controlled studies reported in Mayo Clinic Proceedings

Rochester, MN, April 12, 2013 – L-carnitine significantly improves cardiac health in patients after a heart attack, say a multicenter team of investigators in a study published today in Mayo Clinic Proceedings. Their findings, based on analysis of key controlled trials, associate L-carnitine with significant reduction in death from all causes and a highly significant reduction in ventricular arrhythmias and anginal attacks following a heart attack, compared with placebo or control.

Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the United States. Although many of the therapies developed in recent decades have markedly improved life expectancy, adverse cardiovascular events such as ventricular arrhythmias and angina attacks still occur frequently after an acute myocardial infarction (heart attack).

It is known that during ischemic events L-carnitine levels are depleted. Investigators sought to determine the effects of targeting cardiac metabolic pathways using L-carnitine to improve free fatty acid levels and glucose oxidation in these patients. By performing a systematic review and meta-analysis of the available studies published over several decades, they looked at the role of L-carnitine compared with placebo or control in patients experiencing an acute myocardial infarction.

L-carnitine is a trimethylamine which occurs in high amounts in red meat and is found in certain other foods, and is also widely available as an over-the-counter nutritional supplement which is claimed to improve energy, weight loss, and athletic performance. Its potential role in treating heart disease was first reported in the late 1970s.

A comprehensive literature search yielded 153 studies, 13, published from 1989-2007, were deemed eligible. All the trials were comparison trials of L-carnitine compared with placebo or control in the setting of acute myocardial infarction.

This systematic review of the 13 controlled trials in 3,629 patients, involving 250 deaths, 220 cases of new heart failure, and 38 recurrent heart attacks, found that L-carnitine was associated with:

Significant 27% reduction in all-cause mortality (number needed to treat 38)
Highly significant 65% reduction in ventricular arrhythmias (number needed to treat 4)
Significant 40% reduction in the development of angina (number needed to treat 3)
Reduction in infarct size
There were numerically fewer myocardial reinfarctions and heart failure cases associated with L-carnitine, but this did not reach statistical significance.

First author James J. DiNicolantonio, PharmD, Wegmans Pharmacy, Ithaca, NY, observes, “Although therapies for acute coronary syndrome (ACS), including percutaneous coronary intervention, dual antiplatelet therapy, b-blockers (BBs), statins, angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors (ACEIs), omega-3 fatty acids, and cardiac rehabilitation, have markedly improved clinical outcomes, adverse cardiovascular (CV) events still occur too frequently after ACS. One promising therapy for improving cardiac health involves using L-carnitine to improve free fatty acid levels and glucose oxidation.”

“The potential mechanisms responsible for the observed beneficial impact of L-carnitine in acute myocardial infarction are likely multifactorial and may, in part, be conferred through the ability of L-carnitine to improve mitochondrial energy metabolism in the heart by facilitating the transport of long-chain fatty acids from the cytosol to the mitochondrial matrix, where b-oxidation occurs, removing toxic fatty acid intermediates, reducing ischemia induced by long-chain fatty acid concentrations, and replenishing depleted carnitine concentrations seen in ischemic, infarcted, and failing myocardium,” says DiNicolantonio.

L-carnitine is proven to be safe and is readily available over the counter. The investigators agree that the overall results of this meta-analysis support the potential use of L-carnitine in acute myocardial infarction and possibly in secondary coronary prevention and treatment, including angina. They advocate for a larger randomized, multicenter trial to be performed to confirm these results in the modern era of routine revascularization and other intensive medical therapies following acute myocardial infarction. But, says DiNicolantonio, “L-carnitine therapy can already be considered in selected patients with high-risk or persistent angina after acute myocardial infarction who cannot tolerate treatment with ACE inhibitors or beta blockers, considering its low cost and excellent safety profile.”

These findings may seem to contradict those reported in a study published earlier this month in Nature Medicine by Robert A. Koeth and others (Koeth, R. A. et al. Nature Med. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nm.3145), which demonstrated that metabolism by intestinal microbiota of dietary L-carnitine produced trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) and accelerated atherosclerosis in mice. They also noted that omnivorous human subjects produced more TMAO than did vegans or vegetarians following ingestion of L-carnitine, and suggested a possible direct link between L-carnitine, gut bacteria, TMAO, and atherosclerosis and risk of ischemic heart disease.

“The Nature Medicine paper is of interest,” agrees senior investigator Carl J. Lavie, M.D.,FACC,FACP,FCCP, Medical Director of the Cardiac Rehabilitation and Prevention Center at the John Ochsner Heart and Vascular Institute at the University of Queensland School of Medicine in New Orleans, “but the main study reported there was in animals, and unlike our study, lacks hard outcomes.” He also notes that “there are various forms of ‘carnitine’ and our relatively large meta-analysis specifically tested L-carnitine on hard outcomes in humans who had already experienced acute myocardial infarction.”

RIP latest meat scare: Clinical studies show L-carnitine ‘improves patient outcomes following heart attack’ — So how could it cause atherosclerosis? | JunkScience.com