Preworkout 'pump' supplement - need suggestions

[gbrice75]

I haven't used a preworkout supplement in years... the myriad of them available today is daunting. I've used Jack3d (old formula), NO Explode, Black Powder, White Flood, Noxipro, 1.M.R., Hemo Rage, and about 10 others I can't recall the names of.

I'm not looking for a supp that provides that jittery, wired tweaked feeling. I'm not even necessarily looking for anything that provides 'energy' (i'll rely on my preworkout nutrition and a caffeine pill, thanks) per se; what I'm looking for is the best supplement that gives a real pump. As I have compromised glycogen storage capability, am insulin resistant, and potentially have less than stellar circulation, I have a very difficult time achieving any kind of pump while training. Everybody loves a good pump, I'd like to experience it a bit as well.

Note this is purely cosmetic (and somewhat vain) on my part. I simply want that pumped up look during/after training.

Any suggestions? I would assume something like NO Xplode (i.e. vasodilator/nitrogen etc.) but I don't recall getting much out of that one back in the day.

[austinite]

Easier to just take a few of the right pills instead of searching for a pre-made shake-type PWO.

Try 3 grams of L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine for your pre workout. No jitters, just a killer pump.

[Gaspaco]

Hey GB!

I am using right now MONSTER PUMP from cytosport.

2scoops and love it so far.

[gbrice75]

Easier to just take a few of the right pills instead of searching for a pre-made shake-type PWO.

Try 3 grams of L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine for your pre workout. No jitters, just a killer pump.

I know you're right. I'm just too lazy to buy each ingredient separately and then remember to take em, lol! But just 2 isn't bad. I'm going to look into this now. What's the L-Citrulline Malate? I'm familar with L-Arginine being a vasodilater.

Hey GB!

I am using right now MONSTER PUMP from cytosport.

2scoops and love it so far.

Thx G, I'll look into it as well.

[Tx89]

Exactly what Austin said! These two are a staple before workouts for me and nothing else compares imo....except dbol

[austinite]

I know you're right. I'm just too lazy to buy each ingredient separately and then remember to take em, lol! But just 2 isn't bad. I'm going to look into this now. What's the L-Citrulline Malate? I'm familar with L-Arginine being a vasodilater.



Thx G, I'll look into it as well.

Yes, you can use any citrulline, but malate is absorbed better. powerful Amino acid, Also converts to arginine so you double the benefit. if you go this route, take 20-30 minutes before lifting. Not cardio.. lifting.

[Brazensol]

When I only used a powdered drink I only got the pump in the gym and for a short while thereafter. Now that I've added the L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine I have a pump all the time! I can especially feel it in my arms and legs. I've only been doing this since Monday so don't know if it will last a long time or stop tomorrow. But I kind of like it!

[austinite]

When I only used a powdered drink I only got the pump in the gym and for a short while thereafter. Now that I've added the L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine I have a pump all the time! I can especially feel it in my arms and legs. I've only been doing this since Monday so don't know if it will last a long time or stop tomorrow. But I kind of like it!

Good to hear Braz! Nothing like a motivating pump!

[Tx89]

Yes, you can use any citrulline, but malate is absorbed better. powerful Amino acid, Also converts to arginine so you double the benefit. if you go this route, take 20-30 minutes before lifting. Not cardio.. lifting.

Austin, one Q for you as Supp guru if you dont mind.
Whats your take on dosing of the two? Ive read citrulline converts to Arg and gets actual Arg levels higher than Arg itself does, therefore Citrulline should be dosed higher. And then Ive read Arg dose needed to be at around 5g to be effective and Cit 200mg to 1g to be optimal. Kind of conflicting info (all found on the first 2-3 pages via googling this question)

[austinite]

Austin, one Q for you as Supp guru if you dont mind.
Whats your take on dosing of the two? Ive read citrulline converts to Arg and gets actual Arg levels higher than Arg itself does, therefore Citrulline should be dosed higher. And then Ive read Arg dose needed to be at around 5g to be effective and Cit 200mg to 1g to be optimal. Kind of conflicting info (all found on the first 2-3 pages via googling this question)

I've done 100's of different dosing tests on these 2. My experience shows that Citrulline should be dosed higher than Arginine for a more effective dose.

Arginine does not need to be dosed at 5 grams, that's excessive for a single dose when coupled with Citrulline. There are more benefits to the mix than just the conversion to Arginine, outlined in my supp thread.

3 grams Cit and 2 grams Arg is what I do. You could also do 2 cit and 1.5 arg. Whatever you're comfortable with. I would never exceed 4 grams Cit and 2.5 grams arg.

[Sfla80]

I've done 100's of different dosing tests on these 2. My experience shows that Citrulline should be dosed higher than Arginine for a more effective dose.

Arginine does not need to be dosed at 5 grams, that's excessive for a single dose when coupled with Citrulline. There are more benefits to the mix than just the conversion to Arginine, outlined in my supp thread.

3 grams Cit and 2 grams Arg is what I do. You could also do 2 cit and 1.5 arg. Whatever you're comfortable with. I would never exceed 4 grams Cit and 2.5 grams arg.

First time hearing cit over arg, although might have been said before. But issue is arg is usually dosed higher out of the two, at least with my products. Always done the opposite :/, gonna try it this way. But main reason I'm here now is that can you explain why you would "never" go over the amounts you gave there?

[austinite]

First time hearing cit over arg, although might have been said before. But issue is arg is usually dosed higher out of the two, at least with my products. Always done the opposite :/, gonna try it this way. But main reason I'm here now is that can you explain why you would "never" go over the amounts you gave there?

I agree. And I don't see why aside from the simple marketing fact that more people are aware of Arginine than they are of Citrulline. So it makes for an easier sale.

I wouldnt go over those amounts because I've done it, and that's where nausea begins.

[Sfla80]

I agree. And I don't see why aside from the simple marketing fact that more people are aware of Arginine than they are of Citrulline. So it makes for an easier sale.

I wouldnt go over those amounts because I've done it, and that's where nausea begins.

Ok make sense because I only knew about arg not cil until some of these threads come up. And I am taking 4g of arg to about 1.5-2 if cil now along with other ofcourse. But going to switch it up and see the changes that it does.

[Rusty11]

Easier to just take a few of the right pills instead of searching for a pre-made shake-type PWO.

Try 3 grams of L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine for your pre workout. No jitters, just a killer pump.

First of all, the idea of me giving you advice is just ridiculous!!

Anyway...I don't take as much as austinite, but I take a pill that contains 750mg l-arganine/250mg l-citrulline 3-4x a day. This, combined with my daily dose of cialis
has been great. I never really experienced "the pump" 'til I started with these two.

[austinite]

First of all, the idea of me giving you advice is just ridiculous!!

Anyway...I don't take as much as austinite, but I take a pill that contains 750mg l-arganine/250mg l-citrulline 3-4x a day. This, combined with my daily dose of cialis
has been great. I never really experienced "the pump" 'til I started with these two.

haha. I can always use advice. Trust me.

Everyone is of course going to react differently. Heck a friend of mind told me he would not be using my protocol because the pump was too painful. He could barely lift half way through a workout. Honestly, my high dose days easily compare to a Tren pump. Just ridiculous.

[Rusty11]

Oops. Now I feel really stupid(nothing new). My comment about giving advice was for gbrice. If you were asking for advice, I wouldn't even post a response. LOL. Both of you guys are gurus and have taught me so much.

[austinite]

ha. I wish I could eat like gbrice. Then I could actually make good use of my supplements!

[basketballfan22]

^^^Agreed Rusty.

[Dpyle]

If you demand a ready made I've tried essential amino energy a couple times via some sample packs. Has a pretty amino profile without the mega energy kick that most throw in. You should be able to find some sample packs online for a couple bucks each if not free. So you don't have to commit to an entire tub before trying.

[austinite]

If you demand a ready made I've tried essential amino energy a couple times via some sample packs. Has a pretty amino profile without the mega energy kick that most throw in. You should be able to find some sample packs online for a couple bucks each if not free. So you don't have to commit to an entire tub before trying.

Interesting. They don't show a breakdown for the amino's used (hate it when they do that). 25% fillers, too.

[gbrice75]

Exactly what Austin said! These two are a staple before workouts for me and nothing else compares imo....except dbol

Yes, you can use any citrulline, but malate is absorbed better. powerful Amino acid, Also converts to arginine so you double the benefit. if you go this route, take 20-30 minutes before lifting. Not cardio.. lifting.

Awesome. I've been researching since your post. Would you recommend caps, or powder? I'd assume the latter, for both ease of use and the fact I can basically concoct my own 'blend'. Caps would be much easier however.

When I only used a powdered drink I only got the pump in the gym and for a short while thereafter. Now that I've added the L-Citrulline Malate and 2 grams of L-Arginine I have a pump all the time! I can especially feel it in my arms and legs. I've only been doing this since Monday so don't know if it will last a long time or stop tomorrow. But I kind of like it!

Good to know Braz!

First of all, the idea of me giving you advice is just ridiculous!!

Not true! We're all here to learn, and none of us knows it all. Personally, I'm strong on the nutrition side, but not as much with ( non essential) supplements and even to some degree, training itself. Fact is I've focused so much of my efforts on nutrition over the last several years, I've somewhat neglected my (continued education of) training and as a result, I believe my progress has suffered somewhat. It's something I'm working on presently, and trying to make up for lost time.

Anyway...I don't take as much as austinite, but I take a pill that contains 750mg l-arganine/250mg l-citrulline 3-4x a day. This, combined with my daily dose of cialis
has been great. I never really experienced "the pump" 'til I started with these two.

Love hearing this!

haha. I can always use advice. Trust me.

Everyone is of course going to react differently. Heck a friend of mind told me he would not be using my protocol because the pump was too painful. He could barely lift half way through a workout. Honestly, my high dose days easily compare to a Tren pump. Just ridiculous.

Tren pump. *drool*

Oops. Now I feel really stupid(nothing new). My comment about giving advice was for gbrice. If you were asking for advice, I wouldn't even post a response. LOL. Both of you guys are gurus and have taught me so much.

ha. I wish I could eat like gbrice. Then I could actually make good use of my supplements!

^^^Agreed Rusty.

lol, you guys are too much. I will say though, this conversation has me pumped (no pun) to get pumped! I'll be ordering tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. Aus, I might be hitting you up with a few brand questions if you don't mind.

[austinite]

Would you recommend caps, or powder?
Aus, I might be hitting you up with a few brand questions if you don't mind.

Caps are easy and readily available. I wouldn't bother doing powder unless you want to make huge batches of this stuff. Pretty time consuming.

Hit me up anytime, gb!

[Sfla80]

I use powder as recommended by an un named vet that showed me to this new product. I like it because I'm not taking 20 pills 3 times a day.

[gbrice75]

Caps are easy and readily available. I wouldn't bother doing powder unless you want to make huge batches of this stuff. Pretty time consuming.

Hit me up anytime, gb!

Thanks again buddy!

I use powder as recommended by an un named vet that showed me to this new product. I like it because I'm not taking 20 pills 3 times a day.

*cough* Jimmyinkedup *cough*

[human project]

I'm gonna have to give this a try...... Pumps like tren tho??..... I have to speculate.... Worth a try?? Anyone know a cheap way to get the two??

[austinite]

I'm gonna have to give this a try...... Pumps like tren tho??..... I have to speculate.... Worth a try?? Anyone know a cheap way to get the two??

Start with 3:2 Cit:Arg and increase is needed. 30 minutes pre lifting.

[Bonaparte]

Are you taking anything for your insulin resistance? I want to hear more about that.

[RipOwens]

Start with 3:2 Cit:Arg and increase is needed. 30 minutes pre lifting.

Austin is the cit: arg combo as good a pump (or similar) to what u get from the low dose of cialis? Or anyone else have tried?

[austinite]

Austin is the cit: arg combo as good a pump (or similar) to what u get from the low dose of cialis? Or anyone else have tried?

Better if dosed right for your body type. I'm still working on the math to formulate based on LBM. But I run these with cialis. You'll get the most out of your pump this way.

[austinite]

Are you taking anything for your insulin resistance? I want to hear more about that.

I don't think he takes anything. Diet & training modification along with Omega-3's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, gb!

[Java Man]

Kind of a side thought but I take these aminos at about these doses but half morning and half evening. How much is timing a factor in supplementation and is it better to take amino acids all at the same time rather than splitting it?

[austinite]

Kind of a side thought but I take these aminos at about these doses but half morning and half evening. How much is timing a factor in supplementation and is it better to take amino acids all at the same time rather than splitting it?

Splitting is a good thing, but that doesn't mean even doses. The high pre-workout doses are in reference to the "pump" you get. Timing is very important, very short half life.

[dom1983]

Hey,

When you referred to the timing of your supps and max dosage, is that max dosage a daily allowance or per serving allowance? I currently take -

Monring

4mg Albuterol (Weeks 1-6)
Multi-Vitamin
1000mg L-Arginine
1000mg L-Carnitine

Afternoon

3mg Cialis
4mg Albuterol (Weeks 1-6)
1000mg L-Arginine
1000mg L-Carnitine
1000mg L-Citrulline
1500mg Horny Goat Weed

Evening

2mg Ketotifen (Weeks 3-6)
4mg Albuterol (weeks 1-6)
3mg Cialis
1000mg L-Tyrosine
3000mg Taurine
1000mg L-Arginine
1000mg L-Carnitine
1000mg L-Citrulline
1500mg Horny Goat Weed

Pre-Workout

1 Serving HemoRush w/ Water

Shake w/ Milk 2%
1 Serving Whey Isolate
1000mg L-Arginine Powder (Micronized)
1 Serving BCAA's
1 Serving Creatine Monohydrate

And I am wondering if I would be better served taking the L-Citrulline and L-Arginine out of my afternoon stack and adding them to my pre-workout stack. Or just adding additional L-Arginine and L-Citrulline to the pre-workout stack, keeping the ones already taken in the afternoon stack.

Total daily values currently are -

L-Arginine - 5000mg
L-Citrulline - 3000mg

Taking additional L-Arginine and Citrulline pre workout would bring my daily valus to -

L-Arginine 7000mg
L-Citrulline - 5000mg

I really want that killer pump, so I'm wondering if as I said I should just not take any in the afternoon and safe them for my pre-workout, or if I should just take addtional supps pre-work out and increase my daily values.

What would you suggest based on your previous experiences with high doses of them?

Dom

[austinite]

^ No, the max dose I recommended was referring to a pre workout dose. I've used 30 grams in a day, it's not that big of a deal, just not all at once.

[gbrice75]

Are you taking anything for your insulin resistance? I want to hear more about that.

I'm using chromium (polynicotinate) and cinnamon polyphenols, but beyond those I'm relying on nutrition (e.g. periods of fasting, low carb, minimal sugar, etc.) as my primary 'tool' to combat it and increase sensitivity.

[M302_Imola]

Gbrice75, curious as to why you're insulin resistant...you can PM me if you would like.

[human project]

I'm using chromium (polynicotinate) and cinnamon polyphenols, but beyond those I'm relying on nutrition (e.g. periods of fasting, low carb, minimal sugar, etc.) as my primary 'tool' to combat it and increase sensitivity.

What caused this???

[gbrice75]

Gbrice75, curious as to why you're insulin resistant...you can PM me if you would like.

What caused this???

I don't mind talking about it here. I actually have a few threads on the subject, linked below.

It could be in part due to genetics, however I'm quite sure my lifestyle was the key culprit. When I got my driver's license at 17 (and subsequently stopped walking to get places), I started putting on weight. Compounding the problem was a horrible diet (high processed carb, high [bad] fat, etc.), and I lived a VERY inactive lifestyle. I mean, next to no activity. By the time I was in my early 20's, I had ballooned up to 255lbs, mid 30's bodyfat. I continued this way for the better part of 15 years which undoubtedly had a profound negative impact on my physique and metabolic processes.

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...hlight=insulin

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...hlight=insulin

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...hlight=insulin

[gbrice75]

Just placed my order. All from brands I've used before, so hopefully they're decent. I got:

NOW L-Arginine tabs - 1g per tab, 120 tabs ($10)
NOW L-Citrulline caps - 750mg per cap, 180 caps ($25) - couldn't find malate with any brand however

Since I was already in the mood and needed to refill some supps anyway, I also got:

Natrol Chromate (Chromium Polynicotinate), 200mcg per cap, 90 caps ($6) - have used this plenty in the past

And finally, since I'm sick of taking multiple digestive enzymes, I found a blend i'm pretty happy with:

NOW Digest Platinum containing:
Amylase 23000DU
Protease 4.5 82500HUT
Protease 6.0 2500HUT
Acid-Stable Protease 3.0 20SAPU
Lipase 3500FIP
Cellulase 3200CU
Hemicellulase 1000HCU
Alpha-galactosidase 300GalU
Acid Maltase 7.5MaltU
Bromelain - 300,000 FCC PU
Papain - 300,000 FCC PU
Lactase 1000ALU
Pectinase - 15 endo-PGU
Peptidase 2500HUT
Glucoamylase 30AGU
Beta-Glucanase 30BGU
Invertase 800SU
Phytase 8FTU
Xylanase 650XU
Neutral Bacterial Protease 3000PC

Everything I wanted except Betaine HCL, but oh well. Has plenty of other stuff I wasn't already taking, so it's a worthy trade-off. Also didn't get my cinnamon, but I'll live. I use plenty on my oats anyway.

Thanks for the help guys.

[austinite]

^^ Awesome GB!! I'm excited to hear some feedback from you!