DIM, Diindoylmethane. Fuck?!

[DocToxin8]

Ok so i was a little interested in DIM, especially as a means of estrogen control.
But I didn't research it.

But due to a glitch on eBay I managed to order 2x10grams plus a box of tablets.
(I was "tired" and didn't remember I had hit the button allready!)

So what was in essence just be buying a test sample has turned into me buying enough DIM to use it as flour.

And NOW I'm beginning to look at little at the research!
It smellls like snake oil.

What have I done?

Anyone used this shit?

Does it work, as any estrogen control at all?

Let's say when I'm at the point were I really don't need adex, but should use a touch of AI, would it be enough then?

Does it really impact bloods or immune system positively?

Shit, what I mean, is it a supp worth taking to any of you? For it seems I'm gonna be using it soon.

[Couchlock]

Ok so i was a little interested in DIM, especially as a means of estrogen control.
But I didn't research it.

But due to a glitch on eBay I managed to order 2x10grams plus a box of tablets.
(I was "tired" and didn't remember I had hit the button allready!)

So what was in essence just be buying a test sample has turned into me buying enough DIM to use it as flour.

And NOW I'm beginning to look at little at the research!
It smellls like snake oil.

What have I done?

Anyone used this shit?

Does it work, as any estrogen control at all?

Let's say when I'm at the point were I really don't need adex, but should use a touch of AI, would it be enough then?

Does it really impact bloods or immune system positively?

Shit, what I mean, is it a supp worth taking to any of you? For it seems I'm gonna be using it soon.

That surely doesn't sound like you.

Using something just because you accidentally ordered 28,000mg of it, without knowing much about it

I'd expect that nonchalant cavalier attitude from a post count of 11....

[DocToxin8]

That surely doesn't sound like you.

Using something just because you accidentally ordered 28,000mg of it, without knowing much about it

I'd expect that nonchalant cavalier attitude from a post count of 11....

Hehe, no it's not my style.
But we're talking about a supplement.
I was gonna do a simple trial with it,
as it has many supposed benefits, but research is a bit, hmm.
But it's been studied enough to say it's not poisonous, at least not for a short time span, which was what I am supposed to do.

But since I'm sitting at so much I just wanted some feedback from users on it.
It is after all marketed as an "AI" (though supposedly not an AI)
so I'd guess people would have some experience.

(But Ofcourse in not gonna use 25-30grama of something I'm wary about.)

I'll fill in some own research here, but anecdotal evidence would be nice.
Anyone with experience of it would help a lot by contributing.

[redz]

Never heard of it maybe you can do a log at some point problem is that if it isn't working the consequences might be bad.

[DocToxin8]

Inhibit cardiac remodeling
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...ane%20estrogen

Inhibiting aromatase and breast cancer:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23090135/?
i=12&from=diindolylmethane%20estrogen

Breast and prostate cancer, roles of DIM as modulator of estrogen metabolism
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...090135/related

[DocToxin8]

The ingestion of vegetables containing indoles that form DIM,
and how epidemiological data link that to reduced cancer rates:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...090135/related

I also saw that it was speculated to be protective of the liver for carcinogens.

So, as one eating to little vegetables I can see some supplementation probably being healthy, but I don't see anything that links it to actually being anywhere near an AI in terms of estrogen management.

Well well.

[DocToxin8]

I can certainly post a log upon starting it,
But this seems like a supplement you don't feel,
maybe it will influence blood tests, but I doubt that.

It seems more like the benefit of eating an apple a day at this point.

[DocToxin8]

Ok, so I've used the search function some.

This too one is pretty new and unanswered, I'll keep it in so I can answer it later when I have something to say.
http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...dim-estro.html

Actually some experience in these threads that follow,
but not much.
http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...eness-dim.html

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...dim-users.html

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...im-dosage.html

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...nions-etc.html

[MToption2]

Anyone used this shit?

Does it work, as any estrogen control at all?

Let's say when I'm at the point were I really don't need adex, but should use a touch of AI, would it be enough then?

Does it really impact bloods or immune system positively?

Shit, what I mean, is it a supp worth taking to any of you? For it seems I'm gonna be using it soon.

I have an unopened bottle of it collecting dust. Haven't used it yet.

Some online TRT "doctors" have some of their patients on it. But the reviews are mixed. It's more like what you said with the apple example.

[kelkel]

In my readings it can be useful for those with a very minimal need for estrogen control by altering the estrogens form, in laymans terms.

[DocToxin8]

In my readings it can be useful for those with a very minimal need for estrogen control by altering the estrogens form, in laymans terms.

Yeah, that's what I gathered. And that's were I'm at when I cruise low.
But do you know if it's actually enough to cause any visible change in f.ex bloat,
or if that's asking way to much?

I'm also torn between whether it's healthy or not.
Cancer prevention, well, while it sounds good doesn't have to be a good thing.

[kelkel]

No clue doc. I know some guys have reported a difference using Dim and Zinc combined but I've never bothered trying.
May be worth a shot if you have the time and can pull the BW.

[DocToxin8]

Ill see if I can post a log with BW on it.
Only problem I foresee is that it means I'll have to stay on the same amount of AAS for some time.

[hammerheart]

Ill see if I can post a log with BW on it.
Only problem I foresee is that it means I'll have to stay on the same amount of AAS for some time.

What is your "maintanance" dose doc?

[DocToxin8]

What is your "maintanance" dose doc?

That's not so easy to answer.
I'll go down to 250mg TE pr week, sosmetimes less.
But I guess more of the time im at around 3-400mg TE a week, that's enough gaining as well.
So i switch around a bit. Either going low <=250mg a week,
or I'm doing 3-400mg which is enough to grow as well.

As maintenance I think 250mg TE would be plenty.

DISCLAIMER: don't do what I do.

[hammerheart]

I've been on 250mg weekly (split 125mg 2x ), that put me at 1130, which isn't anything special imo. Didn't really feel the need for estro control until I went up in weight, that's when I had to lower dosage.

I'd say 200mg TE per week would be top for me (as TRT) and I won't need any AI if I manage to drop bf around 10-12% (again).

[DocToxin8]

At 250mg TE pr week I don't use an AI.
I've done bloodwork without AI before, and at 500mg TE E2 is usually notably elevated.
My hope is that DIM is effective enough to lower E2 to normal levels even at a 400mg TE weekly dosage. So we'll see about that.
After reading some more about it I'm looking forward to trying it out,
some report great effects, others none at all.

DISCLAIMER; I can't get gyno so I've been more careless with AIs, but high e2 affects more than breast tissue. especially the effect on BP and libido/psychological effects, prostate too.

[DocToxin8]

I've been on 250mg weekly (split 125mg 2x ), that put me at 1130, which isn't anything special imo. Didn't really feel the need for estro control until I went up in weight, that's when I had to lower dosage.

I'd say 200mg TE per week would be top for me (as TRT) and I won't need any AI if I manage to drop bf around 10-12% (again).

Yeah, both bodyfat and diet can effect estrogen conversion greatly.
While not something I'd recommend, I've had E2 within normal parameters (not sensitive test) even at 500mg, but it's been too high also.

[hammerheart]

DISCLAIMER; I can't get gyno so I've been more careless with AIs, but high e2 affects more than breast tissue. especially the effect on BP and libido/psychological effects, prostate too.

Yeah my BP went from a nice 115/75 (even on Tren ) to pre-hypertensive of 140/90. I used to have BP this high when I was a fatty couch potato.

Speaking of central effects I notice an increase in bitchiness, unsteady hands and general irritability, especially after I take my coffee.

I guess I need some AI, doubt I can lose a substantial amount of weight with E2 and likely cortisol being this inappropriate.

Breast tissue... lol check out my last pic in Sil's castle.


As for estrogen labs I'm wary of them because of standard assay being inaccurate.. or you can get sensitive E2 up there?

[DocToxin8]

E2's effect on BP is IMO the worst side.
Well, libido can be crushed too, but it depends on the individual.
Did an experiment long ago, with a high dose test regime.
I wasn't using an AI and was at about 750mg TE.
Then I felt some slight ED, and instead of just jumping on adex,
I tried banging in even more test.
This actually worked (as far as libido and ED), but only for a short time.
I then added in even more test prop, and it worked again.
DISCLAIMER: this is award winning prize in stupidity,
(But it was part of an experiment to learn the effects of E2 vs T)
Eventually I had to throw in an AI because of BP and bloat however.
(And lower the T dose)

Yup, estrogen has some complicated effects on the CNS.

I saw that pic Biz, I'd include an AI if I was you.
I don't know your overall BF, but if it's really bad just around the nips,
maybe try a SERM like nolva for some time.
Ofcourse, it isn't much point if BF is high overall.

You can get sensitive E2 labs here too, it's just seldom done.
(Or seldom if you go to your GP and not a specialist)
I'll take a look at my last BW where estrogen is measured an look.

[hammerheart]

Lol don't tell me about libido, but I find it curious I had a similar experience with the large 1g TU nebido shots, I had a minor surge in libido the very same day that evened out in hours, and never returned. Very frustrating.

Yes bf is approaching 20% but I do seem to display a preferential accumulation of adipose tissue on chest, it's been that way since childhood, I'm attacking it via diet and cardio, not that much to lose really - 6-7kg should do. I've always refrained from SERMs because of SHBG upregulation, but now that I've got it down with winstrol , I might give them a try... I'm more interested the way they affect the hypothalamus than breast, since all the issues from TRT appear to be estrogenic sides, if you recall the conversation we had some months ago.

I need AI at this point, after the weight gain my facial hair stopped growing lol. Added some creatine (that should up DHT a bit), and got it growing on alternate days. The estro seem to have some powerful antagonist action, either by down-regulating the AR or directly, I'm not sure, was thinking of a short blast at 600mg to stimulate the receptors. The high prolactin might also be a sign of estro dominance in the brain, which is the least thing I like.


No lab (or even hospitals) here got the machinery (it isn't cheap) for the sensitive assay.


Edit: basing on my last lean weight (calculated from bf measured by caliper) my current bf should land at no more than 17% at 73Kg.

[DocToxin8]

I wouldn't worry too much about SHBG.
You can kill if SHBG fairly quickly with any c17 oral,
And my SHBG is low on just test alone, when I measured after some orals I had SHBG at 6 (nmol/L?), that is, below the lowest reference point.

As for SERMs, I'd just try 10mg nolva and see how you react.
I know I don't tolerate clomid very well.
The interaction between estrogen and androgens is complex,
but I thought that as long as androgens were raised you'd get an AR response.

Women with PCOS produce too much sex hormones overall, both androgens and estrogens. And facial hair (and body hair) is a common side effect.
If they would be even hairier with less estrogen I don't know.
Would be interesting to find out actually.

[hammerheart]

SHBG was 40-45 on Test alone, with as low as 5mg stanozolol /die it's down to 8 nmol/l, no problem there, other than the need for frequent pins, which I already do.

I know the thing with my facial hair is very strange, bizarre if you wish, almost non-sense, but that's the empirical evidence, on AI it grows like no tomorrow.

I don't know if we can compare with women, their clit f.ex would grow on AAS yet our penis doesn't.

[DocToxin8]

Yeah there's that.

Anyway, received my DIM today.
Pure powder. Smells foul.

I've started it today, and will skip adex for now and see.
(I can't get gyno so it isn't any immediate risk, but I would NOT suggest this for anyone else)

So from today I'll see if DIM suffices for estrogen control.
Right now I'm on a fairly low cruise dose, but will soon increase T to about 4-500mg a week I think.

As for making a thread log, I'm not sure.
I'll also be taking a lot of new supplements so any side effects will be hard to tell. But bloat is my primary measure here.
Shall try to get some BW also, but for a log I'd need BW before, during, after.
This will just be an initial trial.

[hammerheart]

Keep us updated!

[Couchlock]

I saw some at "vitamin shoppe" yesterday, behind the glass case with all the almost steroid sounding "tribulus" test boosting snake oils.

$49.99 USD for 90 caps , said take 3x each day.

Lol

[Couchlock]

I saw some at "vitamin shoppe" yesterday, behind the glass case with all the almost steroid sounding "tribulus" test boosting snake oils.

$49.99 USD for 90 caps , said take 3x each day.

Lol

Sorry it was 120 caps at 4x day

[Ashop]

Only way to know how DIM works for sure is with some experimenting followed up with some blood work.
I know a handful or guys on TRT that swear by it but that's on relatively small dosage anyway.

[DocToxin8]

Yeah, I will update again later.
But for now I'll take some days without DIM, maybe start Monday.
Reason is Got a lot of new supps,
but yesterday I hadn't taken any of those, only a capsule of DIM (not the pure powder), it was supposed to contain 100mg DIM, 50mg vit E, and some piperidine for absorption.
So i took this in the morning and went out while my GF was relaxing and preparing for a sex marathon when I got back.
About 60min before I got back i took some cialis, something i do often,
but I took a bit more than usual, maybe closer to 10mgs.

When we started having sex (it felt like 5min but probably was 15-30min, as it was anal, and I always use more time than I think)
I suddenly got very bad.
I started shaking and felt nauseous.
I had to stop dead in my tracks and just lie down.
Went and took 25mg oxazepam,
and it went in waves.
I finally was ok enogun to continue the sex,
and lasted maybe an hour before cumming,
but after the orgasm I felt nausea again.
Rested a bit and fucked some more,
but the uneasiness were never far away.
There was also an almost psychedelic effect in a bad way,
like nausea-anxiety-GI distress-panic-weed.

So since I'm gonna have lots more sex this weekend I'll hold of on the DIM.
I'll wait til I can afford to be a bit nauseous,
as I get very frustrated when I'm with my GF and can't perform,
at least when we've even planned to have sex, something we rarely do as we always have sex.

So I don't know what happened.
But since I can't afford any ill reaction I'll wait till next week with the DIM.