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Thread: Charliie's 2019 log - Water Retention Vs. Benefits of high E2 Vs. Other Sides

  1. #1
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    Charliie's 2019 log - Water Retention Vs. Benefits of high E2 Vs. Other Sides

    A log about Water Retention Vs. Benefits of high E2 Vs. Other Sides effects

    Note: I’m posting this at week 8 of my cycle… I wasn’t sure it would be interesting initially, but I think I’ll post it. I’m also going to keep updating this first post, rather than spread it throughout a bunch of posts so its easier to follow. I’ll note the updates here, but I'll also have a new post about it below so no one has to read through this whole thing again.

    Background: I’ve ALWAYS used an AI, usually Adex… but I’ve been hearing repeatedly over the last year or so about the positive benefits of having higher estrogen while on cycle…. So why not give it a shot.

    I’m in my first cycle where I’m committed to finding out how high my Estrogen can go and still get the positive benefits, without (or at least mitigating) any overwhelming negative sides. And then making thoughtful adjustments on the fly to control the side effects, but still stay on task, namely I’m trying to stay away from an AI during this cycle. I thought I’d talk through what I’m dealing with in case anyone finds it interesting.

    Stats: 48yrs, 6’2” 240lbs, eating about 3500 cals per day, might adjust calories down as I go.
    Goal: Maybe a little bulk initially, then mainly recomp.

    Planned 15(ish) wk cycle:

    Supplements: NAC, Creatine, fish oil, Vitamin D

    Wks 1-4: 600 Test C per week
    Wks 1-10: 50mg winny per day
    Wks 5-12: 600 Test C per week, 250 Mast, 300 Tren E
    Wk 13-15: Evaluate later

    Note:
    I’m hampered by a lot of travel this summer, but I’ll do the best I can.

    (Update)
    Week 1:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing to report

    Week 2:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing to report

    Week 3:

    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing interesting to report, maybe getting better recovery, maybe a little stronger. My weight is up to about 245.

    Week 4:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Weight is up, about 248lbs-250lbs (probably water), feeling good… Not sure about the Winny, maybe should have saved it for the end… too late now.

    Week 5:
    Added 250 Mast, and 300 Tren E – REALLY feeling strong at the gym, definitely retaining water, weight is up about 15 pounds but I feel great and I’m having fantastic workouts. Not sure if its the Winny creating the new strength, I would have expected it sooner than week 5 if so.

    Week 6:
    Spent the day at a water park with the kids, had TERRIBLE water retention, it was really unsightly and uncomfortable. Super thick ankles and wrists, puffy fingers, belly hanging over my shorts, and my nipples were supper puffy, but… I’m strong as hell at the gym, and other then feeling tight through my joints from the water, I’m recovering great, and my pumps are awesome. I’m churning out more reps and my joint pain is non-existent, I really feel great overall. I think I’m going to just deal with the water for now but the prominent nipples worry me.

    Options:
    1)Add Nolva for the nipple worry? I don’t think it helps with water.
    2)Reduce the Test because I’m assuming its causing the water? Maybe later…
    3)Add an AI for the water retention…? Sorta goes against the point of this, but we’ll see.
    4)Up the Mast to 500 and see about the nipples… probably won’t help the water retention.

    First change: upped the Mast from 250 to 500 per week.

    Week 7:
    Nipples have calmed down by increasing the Mast. The water retention is ever persistent, I’m still puffy all over and my ankles are still full of water and I’m rather uncomfortable when sitting around… its weird, but its almost like feeling claustrophobic. I can breath ok, but I sorta feel like I can’t…. I’m about 17-20 pounds up (still limiting my calories to about 3400). Insomnia has hit me BIG time. I’m sleeping maybe 3-4 hours a night but its broken up into a few blocks of time…. BUT, I actually feel pretty good, and my workouts are great. I’m vividly alert at night… So I’m walking the dog at like 3AM just to calm down. I don’t seem to be suffering much from lack of sleep, but its annoying being up all night.

    Week 8:
    Recap: Running 600 Test C / 500 Mast / 300 Tren E / 50 mg Winny / still no AI. Still have Wks 8-12 left to go.

    Issues:
    1)The water retention is tolerable, but not ideal…. I can deal with it given my current workouts and strength, but my ankles are rather uncomfortable and I’m definitely laboring more walking up stairs and other cardio activities.
    2)The insomnia is irritating me, but I think the water retention is actually harder to sleep with… when I’m on my back I’m feel like I have sleep apnea and I’m jerking awake all the time. But this idea is hard to prove, my blood pressure today was 122/70… I would think that if the water retention were a significant problem, my BP would be higher?

    Now that I’ve been on everything for 4 weeks, I’ll get bloodwork, but I’m not sure knowing my E value is helpful in deciding what to do, but I feel I am at my limit for what I’m able to deal with… but damn, I’m strong as hell, and have ZERO joint pain. From the chest up, I feel big and full. But my belly is very loose and jiggly, spilling over my waist.

    (UPDATE) Week 9:
    More of the same, Awesome workouts, strong as hell, feeling great at the gym. But, feeling like crap sitting around, hard to breath with such a fat belly, and the insomnia is getting hard to deal with. For example, I’m currently in Toronto, in a hotel with my whole family. When I wake up at home, I can take the dog for a walk at 3am and no one notices. I’m limited in what I can do here without worrying them… so I just sit here in the dark listening to them all sleep. After this trip, we’re home for a week, then gone for another 2 weeks. But damn… my workouts are awesome.

    Went walking through the woods and the cardio is tough. I know Tren is hard on the cardio, but I feel like the water retention is actually causing me more problems… plus, my girl is starting to get worried about it…. And she can be aggressively loving when it comes to my health…. for the last 4-6 weeks, I’m going to focus on shedding the water.

    Options:
    1)I could start an AI… but ….
    2)The insomnia is a bitch… but I love the progress I’m making.
    (Update)3)The water has to go… I’m just really uncomfortable, and the summer heat is killing me. I’ve been on the Tren E long enough that I think I can drop the Test a bit and roll with the Tren/Mast into my recomp phase. I’m up around 22 pounds in 9 weeks and my diet is pretty clean, so I know it mostly water.

    Second change: Dropped the Test C from 600wk, to 300 wk. Still at 500 Mast E., and 300 Tren E. Since its all long esters, It’ll take a while. Might go 18 weeks. Dropping the Winny at the 10 wk mark.

    Questions:
    1)What effect will dropping the Winny have? Maybe the strength goes down a bit, but I don’t think it effects water? And I read conflicting thoughts about its effect on sleep.
    2)Given I want to shed the water, and I’ve had a great 10 week run in the gym… Maybe start an AI now? Or Never?

    (Update)
    The insomnia is really getting hard to deal with (currently 3:30am)… I’m sleeping maybe an 30mins at time, max 2-3 total hours per night, if that. I’ve ran Tren before (around 200wk) and never had this much trouble sleeping. I can’t believe 300/wk would change that much. I read mixed reports about Winstrol ’s effect on sleep, some sites mention it as a side effect, some don’t. I’m happy my 10wks are about up and I hope being done with the winny helps the sleep. If not, I might cut back the Tren to maybe 150 per week.

    Third Change:
    I’m going to cut out the last few days of Winny, I’ve been 9.5 weeks, but I want to see if dropping it helps my sleep before I decide about changing the Tren.

    Public service announcement… Long esters are convenient for shot timing, but I’m realizing that IF I cut back the Tren, and with my already cut-back Test C, that any improvement will take a long time. I hope dropping the Winstrol will have a much quicker effect, we’ll see.
    Last edited by Charlie67; 07-06-2019 at 03:48 AM.
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    (Update)
    Like I said, I started this log in week 8, so here's a brief recap of the forst 8 weeks.

    Week 1:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing to report

    Week 2:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing to report

    Week 3:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Nothing interesting to report, maybe getting better recovery, maybe a little stronger. My weight is up to about 245.

    Week 4:
    600 Test C / 50mg Winny daily – Weight is up, about 248lbs-250lbs (probably water), feeling good… Not sure about the Winny, maybe should have saved it for the end… too late now.

    Week 5:
    Added 250 Mast, and 300 Tren E – REALLY feeling strong at the gym, definitely retaining water, weight is up about 15 pounds but I feel great and I’m having fantastic workouts. Not sure if its the Winny creating the new strength, I would have expected it sooner than week 5 if so.

    Week 6:
    Spent the day at a water park with the kids, had TERRIBLY water retention, it was really unsightly and uncomfortable. Super thick ankles and wrists, puffy fingers, and my nipple were supper puffy, but… I’m strong as hell at the gym, and other then feeling tight through my joints from the water, I’m recovering great, and my pumps are awesome. I’m churning out more reps and my joint pain is non-existent, I really feel great overall. I think I’m going to just deal with the water for now but the prominent nipples worry me.

    Options:
    1) Add Nolva for the nipple worry? I don’t think it helps with water.
    2) Reduce the Test because I’m assuming its causing the water? Maybe later…
    3) Add an AI for the water retention…? Sorta goes against the point of this, but we’ll see.
    4) Up the Mast to 500 and see about the nipples… probably won’t help the water retention.

    First change: upped the Mast from 250 to 500 per week.

    Week 7:
    Nipples have calmed down by increasing the Mast. The water retention is ever persistent, I’m still puffy all over and my ankles are still full of water and I’m rather uncomfortable when sitting around… its weird, but its almost like feeling claustrophobic. I can breath ok, but I sorta feel like I can’t…. I’m about 17-20 pounds up (still limiting my calories to about 3400). Insomnia has hit me BIG time. I’m sleeping maybe 3-4 hours a night but its broken up into a few blocks of time…. BUT, I actually feel pretty good, and my workouts are great. I’m vividly alert at night… So I’m walking the dog at like 3AM just to calm down. I don’t seem to be suffering much from lack of sleep, but its annoying being up all night.

    Week 8:
    Recap: Running 600 Test C / 500 Mast / 50 mg Winny / still no AI. Still have Wks 8-12 left to go.

    Issues:
    1) The water retention is tolerable, but not ideal…. I can deal with it given my current workouts and strength, but my ankles are rather uncomfortable and I’m definitely laboring more walking up stairs and other cardio activities.
    2) The insomnia is irritating me, but I think the water retention is actually harder to sleep with… when I’m on my back I’m feel like I have sleep apnea and I’m jerking awake all the time. But this idea is hard to prove, my blood pressure today was 122/70… I would think that if the water retention were a significant problem, my BP would be higher?

    Now that I’ve been on everything for 4 weeks, I’ll get bloodwork, but I’m not sure knowing my E value is helpful in deciding what to do, but I feel I am at my limit for what I’m able to deal with… but damn, I’m strong as hell, and have ZERO joint pain. From the chest up, I feel big and full. But my belly is very loose and jiggly, spilling over my waist.
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  3. #3
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    (UPDATE) Week 9:
    More of the same, Awesome workouts, strong as hell, feeling great at the gym. But, feeling like crap sitting around, hard to breath with such a fat belly, and the insomnia is getting hard to deal with. For example, I’m currently in Toronto, in a hotel with my whole family. When I wake up at home, I can take the dog for a walk at 3am and no one notices. I’m limited in what I can do here without worrying them… so I just sit here in the dark listening to them all sleep. After this trip, we’re home for a week, then gone for another 2 weeks. But damn… my workouts are awesome.

    Went walking through the woods and the cardio is tough. I know Tren is hard on the cardio, but I feel like the water retention is actually causing me more problems… plus, my girl is starting to get worried about it…. And she can be aggressively loving when it comes to my health…. for the last 4-6 weeks, I’m going to focus on shedding the water.

    Options:
    1) I could start an AI… but ….
    2) The insomnia is a bitch… but I love the progress I’m making.
    (Update)3) The water has to go… I’m just really uncomfortable, and the summer heat is killing me. I’ve been on the Tren E long enough that I think I can drop the Test a bit and roll with the Tren/Mast into my recomp phase. I’m up around 22 pounds in 9 weeks and my diet is pretty clean, so I know it mostly water.

    Second change: Dropped the Test C from 600wk, to 300 wk. Still at 500 Mast E., and 300 Tren E. Since its all long esters, It’ll take a while. Might go 18 weeks. Dropping the Winny at the 10 wk mark.

    Questions:
    1) What effect will dropping the Winny have? Maybe the strength goes down a bit, but I don’t think it effects water? And I read conflicting thoughts about its effect on sleep.
    2) Given I want to shed the water, and I’ve had a great 10 week run in the gym… Maybe start an AI now? Or Never?

  4. #4
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    (Update) The insomnia is really getting hard to deal with (currently 3:30am)… I’m sleeping maybe an 30mins at time, max 2-3 total hours per night, if that. I’ve ran Tren before (around 200wk) and never had this much trouble sleeping. I can’t believe 300/wk would change that much. I read mixed reports about Winstrol ’s effect on sleep, some sites mention it as a side effect, some don’t. I’m happy my 10wks are about up and I hope being done with the winny helps the sleep. If not, I might cut back the Tren to maybe 150 per week.

    Third Change: I’m going to cut out the last few days of Winny, I’ve been 9.5 weeks, but I want to see if dropping it helps my sleep before I decide about changing the Tren.

    Public service announcement… Long esters are convenient for shot timing, but I’m realizing that IF I cut back the Tren, and with my already cut-back Test C, that any improvement will take a long time. I hope dropping the Winstrol will have a much quicker effect, we’ll see.

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    (Update)
    Just finishing week 9…. Been off the Winny for 4 days. Still having awesome workouts, still feeling big. Sadly, the insomnia is still brutal (currently 5am) . I think the water retention is starting to relax. It’s much less noticeable in my ankles. As I mentioned, I’ve ran Tren before, and other then a little insomnia, its wasn’t so bad. In looking through my notes from back then, I was running only 300 Test C per week, and 200 Tren E per week. To recap, I’m currently running 300 Test C / 500 Mast / and 300 Tren E. I think starting the Tren while running 600 Test C was a mistake. In what I’ve been reading, it seems a 1-1 or higher ratio of Tren to Test helps mitigate sides. Again, with the long esters, I don’t expect the insomnia to get any better for a couple weeks.

    Other than the anxiety/Insomnia, I’m happy with the 10 weeks so far. I was thinking about running the Tren 8 weeks given the long esters, but sitting at 6 weeks of Tren, knowing it’ll hang around another 2 weeks or so. I think I’m going to drop the Tren, keep running the Test at 300, and Mast at 500 and finish the 12 weeks that way. I’m hopeful the insomnia goes away sooner than I expect. I’m traveling the next two weeks, so workouts will be sporadic, and hopefully my sleep will improve.
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    Start of Week 10
    Nugget of wisdom: You can’t make TWO changes at the same time and expect to know which change was helpful.

    I FINALLY got a little sleep last night, maybe 4 hours straight at one point. I’m calling that a huge win. So which change was it? Or, was it even one of the changes that did anything?? Because yesterday was a perfect day. Beautiful weather, Beautiful woman, outstanding food, and weather made for walking with that goofy “life is so freaking great” grin on your face…. But I digress… Recall I ended the Winstrol last week, its been maybe 5 days so its likely out of my system. But, the week before that, I also dropped the Test C from 600/wk, to 300/wk and I’m certain it helped with the water retention (my weight fell about 5 pounds) and the anxiety I’m feeling has subsided greatly. So… which change did it?

    Maybe this 1) Dropping the Test from 500 to 300 helped shed some water (Suspicious Science: less Estrogen to convert??)… I really don’t know.

    Maybe this 2) The Winny somehow makes the Tren sides worse?? I can’t really find anything reliable that speaks to Winny having an effect on water retention, or sleep? I’ve ran Winny (oral) before, but never with Tren.

    Maybe this 3) the Ratio of Test to Tren has somehow helped… (recall I started Tren while running 600 Test per week, so maybe the now 300Test to 300Tren. I’m still not sure what the mechanism at play would be?


    Maybe this 4)
    Maybe I’m just getting used to it: see my post 348 and reply post 350 here: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ml#post7467055

    I know I said I was dropping the Tren… but God damn, today’s workout was nuts. I did Back/Chest and everything was firing. I was super pumped, super strong, totally focused.. If it wasn’t so cliché I’d say I was “in the zone”, but that sound dumb.

    Options: So the question of the hour is this… will I hit the Tren tomorrow when its time? We’ll see how I feel tonight, and then decided.

    Recap: Starting wk 10, currently running Test C 300/wk, Tren E 300/wk, and Mast at 500/wk. No AI… which is where all this started… Sleep sucks, water retention is basically normal now, no more puffy nipples (see “First Change” above.) The anxiety I'd been feeling was greatly reduced today.

    Question to self:
    Why is Estrogen androgenic ? I’d love to know if it’s a linear relationship… the higher the better… or exponential, initially being crazy good, but then diminishing returns… or is there a set point where x amount derives the greatest growth, but having higher E is superfluous?
    Tangent reading here, Mainly post #3: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ycle-help.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie67 View Post
    Start of Week 10
    Nugget of wisdom: You can’t make TWO changes at the same time and expect to know which change was helpful.

    I FINALLY got a little sleep last night, maybe 4 hours straight at one point. I’m calling that a huge win. So which change was it? Or, was it even one of the changes that did anything?? Because yesterday was a perfect day. Beautiful weather, Beautiful woman, outstanding food, and weather made for walking with that goofy “life is so freaking great” grin on your face…. But I digress… Recall I ended the Winstrol last week, its been maybe 5 days so its likely out of my system. But, the week before that, I also dropped the Test C from 600/wk, to 300/wk and I’m certain it helped with the water retention (my weight fell about 5 pounds) and the anxiety I’m feeling has subsided greatly. So… which change did it?

    Maybe this 1) Dropping the Test from 500 to 300 helped shed some water (Suspicious Science: less Estrogen to convert??)… I really don’t know.

    Maybe this 2) The Winny somehow makes the Tren sides worse?? I can’t really find anything reliable that speaks to Winny having an effect on water retention, or sleep? I’ve ran Winny (oral) before, but never with Tren.

    Maybe this 3) the Ratio of Test to Tren has somehow helped… (recall I started Tren while running 600 Test per week, so maybe the now 300Test to 300Tren. I’m still not sure what the mechanism at play would be?


    Maybe this 4)
    Maybe I’m just getting used to it: see my post 348 and reply post 350 here: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ml#post7467055

    I know I said I was dropping the Tren… but God damn, today’s workout was nuts. I did Back/Chest and everything was firing. I was super pumped, super strong, totally focused.. If it wasn’t so cliché I’d say I was “in the zone”, but that sound dumb.

    Options: So the question of the hour is this… will I hit the Tren tomorrow when its time? We’ll see how I feel tonight, and then decided.

    Recap: Starting wk 10, currently running Test C 300/wk, Tren E 300/wk, and Mast at 500/wk. No AI… which is where all this started… Sleep sucks, water retention is basically normal now, no more puffy nipples (see “First Change” above.) The anxiety I'd been feeling was greatly reduced today.

    Question to self:
    Why is Estrogen androgenic ? I’d love to know if it’s a linear relationship… the higher the better… or exponential, initially being crazy good, but then diminishing returns… or is there a set point where x amount derives the greatest growth, but having higher E is superfluous?
    Tangent reading here, Mainly post #3: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ycle-help.html
    Great thread Charlie!

    Less testosterone means less estrogen conversion for sure if that’s what you were asking
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    This is a phenomenal log Charlie thanks for taking the time to write it.

    Have you experienced insomnia like this before on previous similar test and Tren cycles? Only different here is uncontrolled e2 levels right?

    I just ran test e with no AI myself and did note that I slept less, woke up more and snored like crazy but not nearly to the extreme you experienced.

    A good takeaway is that the masteron at 500mg completely took care of any e2 worries regarding gyno or nipped puffiness.

    I retained a lot of water myself but not to the point of the discomfort you had. I'm assuming with your experience it wasn't diet related at all which I think some of mine was. But I actually loved the "swelled" feeling especially around my upper body like you noted.
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    To your question about linear returns on high estrogen I think is dependent upon the users tolerance for one. Having highly elevated e2 for extended periods probably wears on you and will lead to diminished returns likely just like being on extended cycles - the body adapts and seeks homeostasis, results are less drastic. I tolerated elevated estrogen with zero side effects, although I didn't run a ton of gear but my bloodwork showed it was up there. Blood pressure elevated here and there but I'm not certain that didn't have to do with stress as well.

    Also to add to it I did experiment with armidex as well to see if the difference was noticeable and I found myself feeling overall crappier while taking an AI for whatever reason. I'm not sure of the side effects of a is but I felt a little achier, more tired and more irratable.
    Last edited by DeeCee112; 07-12-2019 at 11:05 AM.
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    Thanks for the reply guys, sorry for the delay. As I mentioned, I had some traveling to do. My current address is the base of Pyramid mountain in the northern Canadian Rockies. I'm currently at a coffee shop with terrible WiFi, so please excuse the brief replies. This weekend I'll head down to Banff where I'll give a more proper update.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    Great thread Charlie!

    Less testosterone means less estrogen conversion for sure if that’s what you were asking
    Thanks FG... That was maybe the one thing I thought I had right, thanks for confirming


    Quote Originally Posted by DeeCee112 View Post
    This is a phenomenal log Charlie thanks for taking the time to write it.

    Have you experienced insomnia like this before on previous similar test and Tren cycles? Only different here is uncontrolled e2 levels right?
    Thanks DeeCee. No, I've never had insomnia so bad. Theres actually 3 differences from my past Test/Tren cycles.... As you mentioned, no AI, so higher E2. But also running Winny with it, and thirdly, the ratio of Test to Tren.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeeCee112 View Post
    I just ran test e with no AI myself and did note that I slept less, woke up more and snored like crazy but not nearly to the extreme you experienced.

    ..... I'm assuming with your experience it wasn't diet related at all which I think some of mine was. But I actually loved the "swelled" feeling especially around my upper body like you noted.
    That's what I think too...I think the water, and the added weight, definitely made sleep less comfortable and I was more prone to waking myself up..... And my girl was more prone to making me role over because of the snoring.

    At this point, I think it was a combination of things that created the sleep problems, I'll get more detailed when I'm not trying to use my stupid phone to write all this .

    As for the diet, I'm pretty clean... Unless the salt in egg whites reacts badly with Tren, lol. But you're dead on, that swollen feeling is great for the ego!

    Sorry for the lack of updates, I'll catch everything up Monday or Tuesday when I'm back in solid signal range.

    Best,
    C-
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeCee112 View Post

    Also to add to it I did experiment with armidex as well to see if the difference was noticeable and I found myself feeling overall crappier while taking an AI for whatever reason. I'm not sure of the side effects of a is but I felt a little achier, more tired and more irratable.
    Huh... Good to know. I've never felt like that where I felt the AI was causing it, but I don't think I've ever let it get so low that it was a problem, which maybe sounds more similar to what you're saying. I'm usual around the 60 mark (with my lab, < 39 is normal I think) during my 'regular' cycles where I'm running an AI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie67 View Post
    Thanks for the reply guys, sorry for the delay. As I mentioned, I had some traveling to do. My current address is the base of Pyramid mountain in the northern Canadian Rockies. I'm currently at a coffee shop with terrible WiFi, so please excuse the brief replies. This weekend I'll head down to Banff where I'll give a more proper update.
    I spent a month in the mountains in Jasper and Banff, some of the best experiences of my life!
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    Excellent log Charlie!
    Just like yourself and many ibtoo had sleep issues with tren much over 300mg.
    For me mast also greatly impacted my sleep also. I ran mast for a while with just test to see how I reacted. With mast I had noticeable strength increases but also added sleep issues. Basically mast over 500 showed these results, when mast was higher around 700 I was easily losing 1-1.5 hours of sleep every night. Then adding tren on top of this took away another hour per night of sleep. Needless to say finding a good balance of compound dosages and positive results with minimum sides is quite a challenge. Also short esters are ideal to help quickly adjust on the fly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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