Cardio Debate

**Panzerfaust** · 09-16-2004, 10:25 AM

I was just talking with some people i work with about cardio bla bla bla and how you should do cardio for a minimium of 45 minutes at 65-75% of you maximum HR.

Is 20 minutes enough for cardio? Why not? It is hard for me to explain, but if i am correct your body does not go into lipolysis in that short of a time period.

Also debated was doing cardio at your target heart rate for the whole cardio session.

I was told that if you stay at your 65-75% of your HR that you would not be moving very fast etc.... I could not seem to make them understand that if you go beyond your target HR you will be burning muscle (Catabolism?) and not fat. Am i correct in this?

Can someone please explain the details?

SwoleCat?

Now i know there take on it is off but trying to get them to understand is not an easy task.

**Panzerfaust** · 09-16-2004, 10:51 AM

Exactly!

I know it differs but i am talking specifically for "Fat Loss". The arguement i am getting is that at your target heart rate that you are barely breathing bla bla bla.....I could not let it sink in that your target heart rate no matter what is your key to burning fat.

**Panzerfaust** · 09-16-2004, 10:54 AM

220 - age * .7

My target HR at 70% is 136

I * by .75 which makes my target HR 146.25

**Hypertrophy** · 09-16-2004, 10:57 AM

Oxygen must be present to metabolize fat as fuel. Without oxygen, the activity becomes anaerobic, relying on glycogen and proteins. Duration also plays a major role. The longer the activity, more fatty acids are use as energy. The longer the duration, the more calories used and a higher percent of fat calories. The intensity is basic physiology. Intensity and duration share an inverse relationship, therefore, a moderate intensity is prescribed to unsure the longer duration.

**Panzerfaust** · 09-16-2004, 11:06 AM

You guys know as well as i do that most people have no clue when it comes to correct lifting techniques either etc...

I have learned most of what i know from this forum and from guys in the gym that i know are smart lifters etc....

You always have the type that goes into the gym on their first day and puts 2 45s on each side of the bench and then does'nt come back after the first week most likely due to injury etc...

I just wanna learn the correct ways to live my new lifestyle and share it but like stated above, it is hard to make people understand. They think you should be going balls to the wall and can barely breath type cardio to get anything done.

Not to mention the 20 minutes of cardio...20 minutes does little for you..i am sure it is better than nothing but 45-1hr is always the ideal range.

Thanks guys.

**Hypertrophy** · 09-16-2004, 11:20 AM

It is all about the RER. Respiratory Exchange Ratio. This value correlates to what percent of Fats and Carbs you are using as energy. Studies consistently show that lower intensity cardio causes a lower RER value. .7 being 100% fat and 1.0 being 100% carbs. They measure this by using a metaboic cart. It is factual exercise physiology!

**Anhydro78** · 09-17-2004, 12:16 AM

It takes 20 minutes at your target heart rate for your body to start oxidizing fat.

**Panzerfaust** · 09-17-2004, 11:54 AM

"It takes 20 minutes at your target heart rate for your body to start oxidizing fat."

Exactly, this is the point where they would stop..

I did not bring it up with them today as i know they will never grasp reality.

And as far as having a friendly competition, LMAO...these people might challenge me to a championship chicken wing eating contest thats about it. I work in an office and 85% are fat asses that talk diet bl;a bla bla but then constantly dip thier chubby ass hands into the candy jar on peoples desks.

One girl here is always talking my diet this and that..."I'm off my diet today"....oh i will have some candy bla bla bla and i will do a couple extra situps..

LMAO...this girl has no clue and to be honest guys, its sad. Really sad.

**Panzerfaust** · 09-21-2004, 09:32 AM

I have this girl that sits beside me and she is interested in starting to clean up her lifestyle...i talked to her about protein etc...and the importance it plays. Even directed her to this site.

Another worker here overheard and stated, yeah that 6 meal a day stuff is like "you eat half a hamburger...then eat the other half later bla bla bla....

Might as well said "Eat half a lg pizza and eat the rest later".....

I guess the quality of food does'nt register to some people but only the amounts?

lol

**Jock191** · 10-14-2004, 10:38 AM

One myth that has pervaded the fitness world for a long time is that low intensity
aerobic exercise burns more body fat than high intensity aerobic exercise. This theory
suggests that once your heart rate rises out of the "target fat-burning zone," you cease to burn fat and you burn mostly carbohydrates. Therefore, the theory goes, the best way to lose fat is low intensity aerobic exercise. This myth prompted many personal trainers and exercise organizations to promote low intensity aerobic training as the ideal way to lose fat. Their advice: “Exercise at a low intensity for a long duration for fat loss.” Unfortunately, they are dead wrong. If this were true, we could extend the low intensity fat-burning zone theory to it's logical conclusion and say that sleeping for twelve hours a day is the ultimate fat burner because when you’re sleeping (a very low intensity activity indeed) you’re burning the greatest proportion of fat to carbohydrate. The problem is, because sleeping is so “low in intensity,” it hardly burns any calories! If the intensity of an activity is too low, you don’t burn enough total calories to have any impact on fat loss.

At lower intensities, you burn a greater percentage of calories from fat than
carbohydrates, and at higher intensities you burn a greater percentage of calories from
carbohydrates. High intensity aerobic exercise can use as much as 65% of the body's
energy needs in the form of carbohydrate. The most important issue for fat loss is not the ratio of fat to carbohydrate burned, but the total number of calories burned and high intensity aerobic exercise burns the most calories! The lower the intensity, the lower the total number of calories burned and the higher the intensity, the greater the number of calories burned. High intensity cardio also raises your metabolic rate after the workout to a much greater degree than low intensity cardio. That’s why high intensity cardio is better, provided that you can maintain it for a long enough duration to burn an appreciable number of calories.

Another reason you burn more fat with a longer workout is because you tend to favor the use of glycogen early in the workout, and then as your glycogen becomes depleted, stored body fat becomes the primary fuel source.

As long as you get enough cals. a day you dont not need to worry about lossing muscle.

**Hypertrophy** · 10-14-2004, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jock191

One myth that has pervaded the fitness world for a long time is that low intensity
aerobic exercise burns more body fatBurns a higher percentage of fat than high intensity aerobic exercise. This theory
suggests that once your heart rate rises out of the "target fat-burning zone," you cease to burn fat and you burn mostly carbohydratesTrue, at higher intensities, you increase your reliance on carbohydrate metabolism . Therefore, the theory goes, the best way to lose fat is low intensity aerobic exercise. This myth prompted many personal trainers and exercise organizations to promote low intensity aerobic training as the ideal way to lose fat. Their advice: “Exercise at a low intensity for a long duration for fat loss.” Unfortunately, they are dead wrong. If this were true, we could extend the low intensity fat-burning zone theory to it's logical conclusion and say that sleeping for twelve hours a day is the ultimate fat burner because when you’re sleeping (a very low intensity activity indeed) you’re burning the greatest proportion of fat to carbohydrate. The problem is, because sleeping is so “low in intensity,” it hardly burns any calories! If the intensity of an activity is too low, you don’t burn enough total calories to have any impact on fat lossThats why there are optimal percentages on HR .

At lower intensities, you burn a greater percentage of calories from fat than
carbohydrates,Therefore, if you were looking to lose fat and preserve LBM, would it not make sense to make fat your predominant fuel sorce and at higher intensities you burn a greater percentage of calories from
carbohydratesI would like to save my glucose and glycogen for resistance training . High intensity aerobic exercise can use as much as 65% of the body's
energy needs in the form of carbohydrateIt can use 100% actually. If you work at a high enough intensity, you can start using lactic acid as a fuel source by coverting it to pyruvate, then transforming it into acetly-CoA and entering the krebs cycles. This is called the Cori cycle. . The most important issue for fat loss is not the ratio of fat to carbohydrate burned, but the total number of calories burned and high intensity aerobic exercise burns the most calories! The lower the intensity, the lower the total number of calories burned and the higher the intensity, the greater the number of calories burned I disagree, all calories are not created equal!! . High intensity cardio also raises your metabolic rate after the workout to a much greater degree than low intensity cardio. That’s why high intensity cardio is better, provided that you can maintain it for a long enough duration to burn an appreciable number of caloriesIntensity and duration share an inverse relationship. .

Another reason you burn more fat with a longer workout is because you tend to favor the use of glycogen early in the workout, and then as your glycogen becomes depleted, stored body fat becomes the primary fuel source.True, this is why in a fasting state (am cardio) you have a lower R value.

As long as you get enough cals. a day you dont not need to worry about lossing muscle.Macronutrient breakdowns plays the key role in catabolism!!

The type of cardio is dependent upon your goal.

**jmillerdls** · 10-28-2004, 10:05 PM

I completely understand that science proves the whole target heart rate thing...but, I enjoy running...will my progress simply be slower? will i maybe need to eat just a bit more? Or is the loss of muscle a waste and therefore running should be avoided?

**Jock191** · 10-28-2004, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hypertrophy

The type of cardio is dependent upon your goal.

Your right and when you are talking about fat loss I was correct...

**Jock191** · 10-28-2004, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by jmillerdls

I completely understand that science proves the whole target heart rate thing...but, I enjoy running...will my progress simply be slower? will i maybe need to eat just a bit more? Or is the loss of muscle a waste and therefore running should be avoided?

It takes alot to actually lose your muscle you have to burn something like 2800 cals to lose 1 lb of muscle. Now dont let that scare you.You can run all you want just up your caloric intake. If your trying to add mass you should be getting about 500 more cal a day then you are burning. Now if you want to do a zig zag diet what you can do is if your worried about losing muscle you can do 500 more than what you burn on days your dont run and then on days you do you can up it either 500-1000 more than you are burning... That way you dont have to worry about losing your muscle..

**Jock191** · 10-29-2004, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Anhydro78

It takes 20 minutes at your target heart rate for your body to start oxidizing fat.

Not true.. It takes 20 min or so for your body to deplete its self of glucose, then and ONLY then can you body start to utilize fat for energy.Thats when lipolysis kicks in and yes its a slow process to begin. Doesnt have anything to do with your target heart rate for this to take place.

**bluethunder** · 10-29-2004, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Jock191

Not true.. It takes 20 min or so for your body to deplete its self of glucose, then and ONLY then can you body start to utilize fat for energy.Thats when lipolysis kicks in and yes its a slow process to begin. Doesnt have anything to do with your target heart rate for this to take place.

I think what Andro meant is 20 minutes AFTER your MHR not the first 20 minutes. And if it took 20 minutes (example only) to get there your blood glucose levels will be less. Just a thought ..

**Jock191** · 10-29-2004, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by bluethunder

I think what Andro meant is 20 minutes AFTER your MHR not the first 20 minutes. And if it took 20 minutes (example only) to get there your blood glucose levels will be less. Just a thought ..

Could you explain that alittle more?

**bluethunder** · 10-29-2004, 05:27 PM

Sure, but first only Andro can answer that. HE said 20 min at your target heart rate(THR) and you are not at your THR immediately. For example to find your THR or maximum heart rate(MHR) the common formular is 220- age. You can take 60-75% of that to do cardio. It may take 20 minutes to reach that or maybe only 5 minutes depending on what % you try. So, prior to reaching the THR you have already used some glucose stores, therefore lipolysis may be taken place from that point forward. As you yourself said it takes 20 minutes to deplete your glucose so what he & I said is the same thing. THR does have something to do with it. You cannot deplete your glucose in 20 minutes walking, (which is almost resting)you need to raise your heart rate.

**l0tus_** · 07-29-2005, 11:43 AM

I ride my bike for cardio, but i live in a hilly area, so my heart rate cycles in and out of my THR for fat loss (goes over during climbs). Does this mean that my body will alternate its fuel source depending on the heart rate? Or does it permanently pull from carbohydrates once i have gone over the THR? (this is assuming my glycogen levels have been depleted: AM cardio + >20mins)

***Giantz11*** · 07-29-2005, 02:43 PM

It's estimated that its take anywhere between 15-25min (depending on the person) to use up available blood glucose, in a low intensity setting, then you will begin to oxidize FFA's as fuel, to a very high percent. As many have mentioned already. However Jock what you are failing to explain is that high intensity cardio in a glycogen depleted setting is highly catabolic. To do HIIT or any such other cardio one needs to plan their nutriton accordingly. Meaning Pre WO meals as well as PWO meals as this type of Cardio is very similar to weight training. And if you weight trained on the same day that would mean another pre wo meal and another pwo meal. Many including my self see this as a less that optimal situation whne cutting, working and trying to get two workouts in, in the same day. Fasted state cardio burns primarily FFA's, and this comes mainly from adipose tissue. While higher intensity workouts tend to oxidize intramuscular triglycerides more. In a carb/glycogen depleted state Low intensity is the only way to go and poses next to no risk of catabolism.

I'd love to see Ronnie Coleman sprinting to shed those last few layers of fat....There's a good reason why you will never see this happen in your lifetime.

**collar** · 07-29-2005, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by muriloninja

I was just talking with some people i work with about cardio bla bla bla and how you should do cardio for a minimium of 45 minutes at 65-75% of you maximum HR.

Is 20 minutes enough for cardio? Why not? It is hard for me to explain, but if i am correct your body does not go into lipolysis in that short of a time period.

Also debated was doing cardio at your target heart rate for the whole cardio session.

I was told that if you stay at your 65-75% of your HR that you would not be moving very fast etc.... I could not seem to make them understand that if you go beyond your target HR you will be burning muscle (Catabolism?) and not fat. Am i correct in this?

Can someone please explain the details?

SwoleCat?

Now i know there take on it is off but trying to get them to understand is not an easy task.

u dont have to make them understand anything...
all the knowledge u know keep it to urself they dont wanna learn why bother..
let them stay fat
and u dont need to prove urself to them so why bother with it..

**Evil Predator** · 07-31-2005, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by muriloninja

I have this girl that sits beside me and she is interested in starting to clean up her lifestyle...i talked to her about protein etc...and the importance it plays. Even directed her to this site.

Another worker here overheard and stated, yeah that 6 meal a day stuff is like "you eat half a hamburger...then eat the other half later bla bla bla....

Might as well said "Eat half a lg pizza and eat the rest later".....

I guess the quality of food does'nt register to some people but only the amounts?

lol

Yup. I get alot of that at work. Theres maybe 6-7 out of 300 guys who work out at work.

One guy said "Whats the difference, eat half now and half later, or it it all now", so i spent the the next hour explaining supplements and nutrition to him. He goes out and buys like 280$ worth of supplements. Proteins, glutamine, creatine, etc...

I got the whole thing for free from him 2 weeks later... "Here, take it, ****ing disgusting shit"

At my gym, theres 1 girl, out of about ten, who is serious about working out.. The other 9 run around and talk to each other... She works out and doesnt talk to anyone... My kinda girl...

99% of them think their muscular and cardiovascular shape is fine, and its sickening...