training for size, not strength!

**statuZ** · 11-10-2004, 04:32 PM

hey bros i got a quick question, how do body builders and powerlifters train differently? do body builders do higher reps and powerlifters do lower reps? Can someone give me an example, i was reading a thread by phreezer and he said
"Bodybuilders, who are concerned exclusively with gains in size, should squat heavy, as fast-twitch muscle fibers have the greatest potential for hypertrophy. However, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (growth of muscle tissue outside of the sarcoplasmic reticulum) will contribute to overall muscular size, and is obtained by training with lighter weights and higher reps."

So what im getting from this is that bodybuildres should train heavy, but then it says training light would contribute to overal muscle size? So which one is better for size.

**SMYL_GR8** · 11-10-2004, 04:38 PM

The real answer to this question is at least five pages, but one school of thought is:

Bigger muscles push heavier weights, so heavier weights induce bigger muscles.

Yes and no. The body adapts to imposed demands, but it is the nature of these demands that cause specific adaptations. I've seen plenty of guys with 30" legs that squat more than guys with 34" legs. To induce optimal GROWTH as opposed to STRENGTH, the heavy weights must be mixed in with "failure" sets and "combo" sets (god, this is oversimplification) to constantly keep the muscle "guessing" and forcing the muscle to adapt i.e. grow. This is an incredibly abbreviated answer, but the principle is all that is really important.

**decadbal** · 11-10-2004, 04:47 PM

its all about using the entire muscle, gettin the entire muscle pumped... after learning how to do that, you will get stronger faster, and bigger faster, thus being the size, alot of the diet comes along with it, most powerlifters are big, but no where near as lean as a bodybuilder, they are essentually the same, only bodybuilders focus on every muscle, powerlifters usually focus on one area. stongmen are sstorng in alll areas. but for bodybuilding, it has to do with fillin the entire muscle up with blood, workin it entirely.

**Hypertrophy** · 11-10-2004, 04:52 PM

You need to train both ways. That is why periodization is best. Do a mesocycle of hypertrophy (67%-80% of 1RM, 8-12 reps) then transition into a strength phase (80%-100+% of 1RM, <8 reps). Bodybuilders "typically" train with high volume, which would correlate to my hypertrophy scheme. Powerlifters "typically" train with heavy loads which correlates to the strength phase. It does go much deeper and far as ATP-PC depletion and motor unit recruitment, etc., but. . .

**Warrior** · 11-10-2004, 05:04 PM

Good responses! Also - I find super/giant setting low reps can help blast fast and slow twitch for maximized fiber recruitment... like the Hatfield Wholistic training school of thought...

BTW - generally speaking - powerlifters tend to use heavier rest with longer RI's (>2 min) because they strive to train themselves for greater and greater loads - goal: function. Bodybuilders will generally train with shorter RI's (<2 min) which causes a greater burn and fiber recruitment - goal: cosmetic/growth...

**Hypertrophy** · 11-10-2004, 05:10 PM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=rest+periods
Read these posts. My post #15 should help you understand it a bit more and other responses also~

**statuZ** · 11-10-2004, 05:51 PM

All this information is awesome, this has to have been the best post i have ever made on ar, or the post i have made that i have gotten the best responses on! Thanks so much guys! Can anyone give me detailed information on a periodization program? Thanks so much!

**Warrior** · 11-10-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by statuZ

All this information is awesome, this has to have been the best post i have ever made on ar, or the post i have made that i have gotten the best responses on! Thanks so much guys! Can anyone give me detailed information on a periodization program? Thanks so much!

Get the Bompa book - Serious Strength Training... he is the one to develop this approach way back when...

**statuZ** · 11-10-2004, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

Get the Bompa book - Serious Strength Training... he is the one to develop this approach way back when...

sweetness im going to guy buy that book tonight! Thanks so much.

**Tallon484** · 11-10-2004, 06:47 PM

To increase the size of the muscle tissue, it is necessary to stimulate the muscle is a certain way. The phase of muscle growth is also known as hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is achieved by lifting heavy wt. (ALWAYS use wt. that overloads the muscle) with the max repitition failing between 8-12. Personally I would try going to 7-10 reps before failure.

Working out in this fashion stimulates protein synthesis is the muscle tissue causing muscle growth.

**IronReload04** · 11-10-2004, 10:20 PM

Personally, i think its all bull. like dc said, those who make the greatest strength gains make the greatest size gains.

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by IronReload04

Personally, i think its all bull. like dc said, those who make the greatest strength gains make the greatest size gains.

do you have any scientific evidence of this stuff? hyprtrophy always has the bomb bomb educational posts!

**KGBnine** · 11-11-2004, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by IronReload04

Personally, i think its all bull. like dc said, those who make the greatest strength gains make the greatest size gains.

How is that not consistent with what is stated here? Nobody is denying that strength comes with size

**Warrior** · 11-11-2004, 01:48 AM

Size is directly related to the muscle size but when you take your focus off lifting heavy weights and put it into the more intense lifting you create higher lactate levels (benfits like increase GH spikes, increased training threshold to the pain) and ATP/CP depletion (increasing the need for higher levels)...

Also think of it this way: A powerlifter goes in and does 405 on the flat bench for 2 reps, 5 sets in 15 minutes. The bodybuilder does 315 for 10 reps/3 sets in 10 minutes. Who produced the best strength/power?

((405*2)5)/15=270 pounds pushed per minute...
((315*10)5)/10=1575 pounds pushed per minute...

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 09:51 AM

so im looking to build size, i should only rest at a max of 1 minute. This would mean if i did a set every 1 miute, iw ould be done working out in 20mins time. this doesnt sound right? cn someone clear this up

**se11** · 11-11-2004, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by statuZ

so im looking to build size, i should only rest at a max of 1 minute. This would mean if i did a set every 1 miute, iw ould be done working out in 20mins time. this doesnt sound right? cn someone clear this up

you have to wait in between exercises. for example this is my bicep routine

2 warm up sets(1:00 rest)
4 standing barbell curls(1:30 rest)
rest 3-4 mins
3 concentration curls(1:30 rest)
rest 3-4 mins
1 seated hammer curl
rest 4-5 mins until next body part

use this as a basis with whatever body part and rest you want. but the thing is you can rest like 3 minuets between exercises, but 1-1:30 between sets.

**IronReload04** · 11-11-2004, 03:30 PM

i got big quite nicely using 3 min in between sets

**Warrior** · 11-11-2004, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by statuZ

so im looking to build size, i should only rest at a max of 1 minute. This would mean if i did a set every 1 miute, iw ould be done working out in 20mins time. this doesnt sound right? cn someone clear this up

Its all integrated. Yes - you should train with short rest intervals, as well as utilizing super/giant and drop sets. But you should also periodize for strength every now and then... by increasing the rest intervals and going for an increased limit strength. Benching 315 for 10 reps/3 sets in 10 minutes is good - but 365 for 10 reps/3 sets in 10 minutes is better

This is how the periodization concept comes into play...

***phreezer*** · 11-18-2004, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hypertrophy

You need to train both ways. That is why periodization is best. Do a mesocycle of hypertrophy (67%-80% of 1RM, 8-12 reps) then transition into a strength phase (80%-100+% of 1RM, <8 reps). Bodybuilders "typically" train with high volume, which would correlate to my hypertrophy scheme. Powerlifters "typically" train with heavy loads which correlates to the strength phase. It does go much deeper and far as ATP-PC depletion and motor unit recruitment, etc., but. . .

Yep yep...

**100%NATURAL-theGH** · 11-18-2004, 11:53 PM

wow... there are a lot of theories in here... I tend to go with a middle road on this... lifting heavy is important... especailly for mass.... doing sets of 10,8,6,4 is what I find the best for larger muscle groups for growing the fastest.... but then when I hit failure on that muscle group on the last few sets I lighten the load and lift more reps... or even forced reps and negatives... if you think about it.. it incorperates both kinds of exercises... you lift HEAVY for those reps.... then your taking the muscle to even further failure... some will say that it's too much and lot's of other things but if you get in good shape it is in my opinion to your advantage to atleast train a few sets per muscle group like this.

**ShnouzedUp** · 09-27-2005, 12:09 AM

Try going 2 weeks heavy with big movements 4 sets 6-8 reps, and every 3rd week going light for 20 reps with 4 sets incorporating more isolation movements... works well for me

**chest6** · 09-27-2005, 12:14 AM

Old thread but I like it I will comment
Heres an example of what I do powerlifting and bodybuilding
when i was more concerned with size..i would do something like this:
squats 4 sets of 8 or like 4 sets 6
now being more powerlift-minded I do something more like this:
warm up (squat off a parallel box..mine for now is 2" below parallel
315x3
335x3
355x3
365x1
385x1
405x1
415x1
425x0
I cant squat anything close to what I do normally when i squat off a box..so sort of disregard the numbers but i will work up to a 3RM and then a 1RM..but it isn't a true max, because of all of the volume. Its more of training with 90%-100%+ max weights for sets
i switch up max effort exercises every week or like every 4th week to prevent working strength backwards and pretty much losing effectivness