Smith Machine Squats

[Jantzen4k]

i do barbell squats almost everytime i do legs, (except when lower back hurts then the sled or something else).

anyway, how many yall get good results from smith machine squats?

you think it would be good to throw it in routine every now and then or no?

>>if so, where yall normally put your feet? doing regular squats i usually have a little wider then shoulder width, but smith feels weird. you usually put them in-front of bar or right underneath. cant really find a good stance.


thanks for help.


j4k

[Big Poppa Pump]

I use the smith machine every once in a while. When I do though, I put my feet close together, just about shoulder width, maybe even closer, and make sure I do it really strict. Also, i put my feet in front (to the point where I probably would fall over if i was using a barbell.) Don't know what others ave to say about this, but feels comfortable for me.

[Kärnfysikern]

they **** upp my knees real quick. Best stance I have found is a little wider then shoulder width. Toes pointing outwards and feet just sligthely infront of barbel.

[Jantzen4k]

thanks guys

[BASK8KACE]

The smith machine should be used sparingly because it severely limits a person's natrual range and path of motion thus causing injury.

Unless you're doing a very strict motion with a REASONABLE amount of weight, then there's absolutely no reason to use the smith machine. If you try to load up the smith machine with heavy weight, you may injure yourself far more quickly than you think is possible.

If you have to have the security of an easy locking machine to prevent the weight from crashing down on you, then get a spotter, or ask your gym to buy something like the machine shown and described in the following post link: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=11

[Jantzen4k]

i didnt really like smith squats when i tried it last week.

dont think im trying it again soon.

[dr.shred]

smith machine takes hamstrings out of the equation, in other words they are terrible.

[Juggernaut]

smith machine takes hamstrings out of the equation, in other words they are terrible.

But then it could be a good tool for hitting the quads. I use the smith now and again to target quads but I never have my feet directly under the bar....more like leaning back against it and placing my feet out in front of me. I don't think it's a bad tool just one that should be used properly........main thing to remember is sqauts are best when done in a rack with a bar.

[dr.shred]

to hit quads more with barbell squat all you have to do is elevate your heels. very simple. works vmo (teardrop muscle on front of quad) very well.

[BASK8KACE]

to hit quads more with barbell squat all you have to do is elevate your heels. very simple. works vmo (teardrop muscle on front of quad) very well.

dr.shred,

As I recall, elevating your heels doesn't do anything except force your knee to extend past the plane created by your toes (while squatting), which places excessive stress on your knees and puts you at risk for a knee injury.

I wish people would stop looking for odd, little tricks and focus more on good form while executing the basic exercises. Unless you're competing at the top levels of competition, the nuances of exercises that the average joes obsess about are generally completely insignificant. More often than not these little tricks originated from some big guy doing a weird variation on a movement and all the smaller guys in the gym fixating on that variation as though it were (yes, were) the reason for the big guy's size.

Again, a person's energy would be far better focused on learning superb form in the basic exercises than trying to tweak exercises with variations (like elevating heels while squatting) that cause injury more than they help a person build muscle.

[bluethunder]

Yes, I agree with BASK8 and one should never place a plate on their heels. It may help for maintaining balance while ascending back up. But if you are loosing balance then you either have too much weight or your hammies are weak. Either way bad idea and imo there are better ways to target the frontal quads.

[RJstrong]

Well said Bask8kace... with proper form and technique good old fashioned squats is all you need... i think sometimes we tend to over analyze situations or even try to reinvent the wheel... may i suggest playing with or adusting your stance (wide or narrow)or even play with bar placement (high or low)or do front squats... never elevate heels... my knees are starting to hurt just thinking about it!

[redmeat]

I can't think of anything more awkward than trying to squat in a machine.

[BASK8KACE]

I can't think of anything more awkward than trying to squat in a machine.

I agree. Unless, that machine is a cable suspension machine (like the one I mentioned earlier), which acts completely like free weights.

[redmeat]

I agree. Unless, that machine is a cable suspension machine (like the one I mentioned earlier), which acts completely like free weights.

That machine's a good idea, but you can save yourself a lot of $$$ by suspending the bar with chain in the power rack.

[BASK8KACE]

That machine's a good idea, but you can save yourself a lot of $$$ by suspending the bar with chain in the power rack.

That's true, but the chain will run down your back and get in the way. This machine keeps everything out of the way and can be used for many different exercises without adjustment (Squats, curls, deadlifts, overhead presses, bench presses, rows, goodmornings, clean&press, etcetera). You can use safety stops if you want on the suspension machine.

If I were planning to buy equipment for a home gym, the suspension machine would be the first piece of equipment I'd buy, next would be an adjustable bench and finally weights (plates and dumbells).

[redmeat]

Chains shouldn't be touching you at all. 2 chains, 1 on either end of the bar. Wish I could find a clearer pic.






Not trying to be a dick. Just felt like I wasn't explaining myself clearly.

[Jantzen4k]

ive seen that before on bench.

never on legs.

very interesting

[BASK8KACE]

Chains shouldn't be touching you at all. 2 chains, 1 on either end of the bar. Wish I could find a clearer pic.

Not trying to be a dick. Just felt like I wasn't explaining myself clearly.

Don't worry bro, you're not coming off badly. I'm glad you posted those pics. That's a good hardcore way of using the rack if you don't have a spotter. I see what you're saying.

The machine I'm talking about has cables. All you have to do is grab the bar and move it up to release it. Once you let go (or if the power fails), it locks into place. If I had a small amount of money to spend, I'd certainly consider the chains and squat rack. Thanks for posting the pics.

[dr.shred]

heels elevated squats- used by some of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the world! EX. Charles Poliquin who forgot more than anyone on this board knows.

[Kärnfysikern]

heels elevated squats- used by some of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the world! EX. Charles Poliquin who forgot more than anyone on this board knows.

arent they more suited for olympic weightlifters?

I guess it cant be to bad on knees though cause weightlifting shoes have elevated heals and those mofos frontsquats rock bottom ****loads of weight without wraps.

[BULKING_N]

Smith machine ,as I was recommended, stay away from it like a plague. If you started as a beginnner to do free weight squat and then you went onto a smith machine, you feel how very unnatural the movement is. That exercises you guys mentioned, the heel on a block squat, I was given a demonstration last night on how its done. Trainer said they did it in the old days with a dumbell or barbell holding behind the back.That was before they had the hack squat machine. He said it is very effective for working the lower quads.

[BASK8KACE]

Smith machine ,as I was recommended, stay away from it like a plague. If you started as a beginnner to do free weight squat and then you went onto a smith machine, you feel how very unnatural the movement is. That exercises you guys mentioned, the heel on a block squat, I was given a demonstration last night on how its done. Trainer said they did it in the old days with a dumbell or barbell holding behind the back.That was before they had the hack squat machine. He said it is very effective for working the lower quads.

Ask your trainer to look carefully at the difference between elevating the heels and standing on a hacksquat inclined platform. The effects of the two different setups (elevated heel vs. inlcined platform) are VERY different. On hack squats, your whole body is at a different angle, but the heels are NOT elevated relative to the new angle and the knees are not (should not be) forced to break the plane created by the toes during regular or hack squats (when done correctly). On the contrary, elevating the heels (high) often forces the knee to break the toe plane while squatting (BTW..if you think putting a small plate--less than an inch wide--under your heels is going to make a huge difference in developing your quads, then you might want to step back and see how that small elevation does not have any effect on your body position relative to your quads. Then look at how the incline platform of the hack squat changes the body position relative to the quads).

There are many good trainers and there are many average trainers who barely know more than common knowlege training tricks. So, just because a trainer says something is correct, it isn't always so.

Remember: not too long ago, trainers advised people to do lat pull downs behind the neck. Some people have been saying for YEARS that behind-the-neck lat pull downs are bad for you. Only recently have the machine manufacturers started to put warnings on the lat machines, coaching people NOT to do behind-the-neck lat machine pulldowns.

The block under the heel trick is something that has survived from the older days of lifting. Just as some of the top bodybuilders still do behind the neck lat pulldowns in their training videos, some powerlifters elevate their heels. It doesn't make the heel elevation (or behind-the-neck-pull downs) any less dangerous for the average joe.

[BULKING_N]

HEy Bask8,
thanks for the reply. I agree with what you say on trainers . Yes, that is true on the lat machine, trainers hadnt picked up on that. How about seasoned lifters, didnt they feel the stress that behind the back pulldowns were putting. This guy been a competitor bodybuilder and using these old skool techniques . I was wanting a good way to work the lower quads and the sweep. Will stick to the usual front squats and my hacks,including my leg press and regular squats/leg extensions.

[dr.shred]

Ok here is some info from a d-1a college strength coach actually a friend of mine on biochemics of a heel elevated squat.

When then knees are forward the torso is
more
upright which means that patellofemoral forces are higher but the lower
back
forces are dramatically lower. For example, in a hell elevated squat
(100 k
athlete, squatting 150 k) the PF joint forces are in the nature of 2250
N
(1125 per knee) and the lower back forces are around 1703 N, where as
in the
normal squat the PF force is around 1500 N (750 per knee) with a lower
back
force of 4271 N. So my first response would be that IF force causes
injury
(you should just sit on your couch, no chance of injury there), then
what
would you rather have hurt, a knee or a lower back? In reality the PF
joint
is capable of surviving much higher forces than that. In a Lay-up for
exmple, the PF forces are over 1500 N per knee (because of the higher
acceleration involved).

The heel elevated squat will simulate a front squat which is actually a
more
natural squat. It allows for a deeper squat, and will require higher
muscle
activation in the quads and glutes. This occurs primarily due to the
increased flexion angles of the knee and hip and secondarily to the
increased moment arm at the knee. This same motion (knee past the toe)
is
natural and normally occurs while walking up and down stairs/ hills and
when
pushing things. It also occurs when any anterior motion is
deccelerated. So
a heel elevated squat is useful to prepare for any of these movements.
As is
a hack squat. I have actuallly seen PF forces as high as 30,000 N in
some
athletic movements, which is far greater than can be produced via
conventional lifting techniques.

[BASK8KACE]

Ok here is some info from a d-1a college strength coach actually a friend of mine on biochemics of a heel elevated squat.

Thanks for the info. I can find a ton of serious write ups about how certain pills will make your cock grow a few extra inches, but I don't buy it. I also could probably find write ups about how behind the neck lat pull downs are safe, but I won't buy that either.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

BTW...if that's a published paper, please send information on how I can find it.

There's a thread on here about a few coaches on a football team at a major university that are training people in ways that go against the grain of what is currently known. Just because someone is a strength coach or a trainer doesn't mean he knows everything. I know a lot of engineers that have degrees from some of the top schools, but I wouldn't let them anywhere near one of my projects because they are sufficiently incompetent.

When I first started lifting, one of the things I was afraid to do was to squat. Being a type-A person about my health, I've talked to a ton of trainers, powerlifters, and had more than one kinesiologist watch my form and discuss squatting with me. I'm going to stay away from elevating my heels during a squat, and I suggest others do the same.

Thanks for making this into a lively debate, but I've heard too much directly from many different reputable people to change my view on elevating heels during squats.

Cheers.

[BASK8KACE]

Here are some excerpts from a few places on the net:


MYTH #3: I can isolate my quads better by using a block or weight under my heels.
SHATTER THE MYTH
The practice of putting blocks or weights under your heels is widespread among bodybuilders in order to gain better isolation of the quads while squatting. The problem is that your knees go way out over your feet, placing great shear and compression on both the cartilage and ligaments of the knee, which over time can cause serious damage to the knee joint.

Above taken from: http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/technique-squat.htm

********

Downward Phase

Slowly lower the body by flexing at the knees and hips. The torso is maintained in an erect position. Weight should be distributed over the middle of the foot, NOT on the balls of the feet or the heels. The heels should remain in contact with the floor at all times. Continue to lower hips until the tops of the thighs are parallel with the floor. Keep in mind that the knees should not protrude over the tips of the toes. Do not bounce at the bottom of the lift.

Above taken from: http://www.athleticadvisor.com/Weight_Room/squats.htm

[Jantzen4k]

Here are some excerpts from a few places on the net:


MYTH #3: I can isolate my quads better by using a block or weight under my heels.
SHATTER THE MYTH
The practice of putting blocks or weights under your heels is widespread among bodybuilders in order to gain better isolation of the quads while squatting. The problem is that your knees go way out over your feet, placing great shear and compression on both the cartilage and ligaments of the knee, which over time can cause serious damage to the knee joint.

Above taken from: http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/technique-squat.htm

********

Downward Phase

Slowly lower the body by flexing at the knees and hips. The torso is maintained in an erect position. Weight should be distributed over the middle of the foot, NOT on the balls of the feet or the heels. The heels should remain in contact with the floor at all times. Continue to lower hips until the tops of the thighs are parallel with the floor. Keep in mind that the knees should not protrude over the tips of the toes. Do not bounce at the bottom of the lift.

Above taken from: http://www.athleticadvisor.com/Weight_Room/squats.htm

great post bask8case

[Panzerfaust]

I do all of my squatting by using the Smith, it works well for me as i do not have a spotter. I have only gained form it, you do have to learn how to use it properly to get the lost out of it, i have never had a problem with it.

[dr.shred]

Ok here is some info from a d-1a college strength coach actually a friend of mine on biochemics of a heel elevated squat.

When then knees are forward the torso is
more
upright which means that patellofemoral forces are higher but the lower
back
forces are dramatically lower. For example, in a hell elevated squat
(100 k
athlete, squatting 150 k) the PF joint forces are in the nature of 2250
N
(1125 per knee) and the lower back forces are around 1703 N, where as
in the
normal squat the PF force is around 1500 N (750 per knee) with a lower
back
force of 4271 N. So my first response would be that IF force causes
injury
(you should just sit on your couch, no chance of injury there), then
what
would you rather have hurt, a knee or a lower back? In reality the PF
joint
is capable of surviving much higher forces than that. In a Lay-up for
exmple, the PF forces are over 1500 N per knee (because of the higher
acceleration involved).

The heel elevated squat will simulate a front squat which is actually a
more
natural squat. It allows for a deeper squat, and will require higher
muscle
activation in the quads and glutes. This occurs primarily due to the
increased flexion angles of the knee and hip and secondarily to the
increased moment arm at the knee. This same motion (knee past the toe)
is
natural and normally occurs while walking up and down stairs/ hills and
when
pushing things. It also occurs when any anterior motion is
deccelerated. So
a heel elevated squat is useful to prepare for any of these movements.
As is
a hack squat. I have actuallly seen PF forces as high as 30,000 N in
some
athletic movements, which is far greater than can be produced via
conventional lifting techniques.

great post shred.

[Deezuhl]

I'll be 100% honest in the 8 months i have been working out I never touched my legs one time really until 2-3 weeks ago. I have tree trunk legs and was afraid to make them bigger. I am 215 now but Even when i was 165lbs in high school i had giant legs. Well after reading more and more on here about core exercises like dead lifts, squats etc, I started squatting and it feels good. Except i saw one of the trainers pushing like 500+ on the smith so i figured its a more stable way to do it so thats i have been doing them the last few weeks. I guess i'll go back to the conventional way after reading this and start with like 185lbs and work my way up. thanks for the info guys!!!

[dr.shred]

Here are some excerpts from a few places on the net:


MYTH #3: I can isolate my quads better by using a block or weight under my heels.
SHATTER THE MYTH
The practice of putting blocks or weights under your heels is widespread among bodybuilders in order to gain better isolation of the quads while squatting. The problem is that your knees go way out over your feet, placing great shear and compression on both the cartilage and ligaments of the knee, which over time can cause serious damage to the knee joint.

Above taken from: http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/technique-squat.htm

********

Downward Phase

Slowly lower the body by flexing at the knees and hips. The torso is maintained in an erect position. Weight should be distributed over the middle of the foot, NOT on the balls of the feet or the heels. The heels should remain in contact with the floor at all times. Continue to lower hips until the tops of the thighs are parallel with the floor. Keep in mind that the knees should not protrude over the tips of the toes. Do not bounce at the bottom of the lift.

Above taken from: http://www.athleticadvisor.com/Weight_Room/squats.htm

In response to your argument, Several studies have shown the tensile forces on the ligaments of the knee to be minimal during any squatting movement as compared to even jogging. This also applies to the shear and compressive forces on the cartilage, and as a note, the knee is well equipped to handle these types of forces particularly in deep flexion because of the largely increased surface area of the cartilage in deep flexion. (pressure is per square inch of area). Not only that but the lateral meniscus will actually shift posteriorly (caused by action of popliteus) providing both increase surface area and stability. When jogging (single legged action creates a joint reaction force equal the 3 times body weight where as a double leg supported movement will divide the force) these forces occur with less flexion in the joint resulting in a high force with minimal surface area equaling more damage. So if your worried about damaging the cartilage and ligaments in his knees the he should especially not jog or play basketball or soccer

[SwoleCat]

DITTO!!!!!

~SC~

dr.shred,

As I recall, elevating your heels doesn't do anything except force your knee to extend past the plane created by your toes (while squatting), which places excessive stress on your knees and puts you at risk for a knee injury.

I wish people would stop looking for odd, little tricks and focus more on good form while executing the basic exercises. Unless you're competing at the top levels of competition, the nuances of exercises that the average joes obsess about are generally completely insignificant. More often than not these little tricks originated from some big guy doing a weird variation on a movement and all the smaller guys in the gym fixating on that variation as though it were (yes, were) the reason for the big guy's size.

Again, a person's energy would be far better focused on learning superb form in the basic exercises than trying to tweak exercises with variations (like elevating heels while squatting) that cause injury more than they help a person build muscle.

[Diesel]

I can't put enough weight on the smith machine to do squats.

[Juggernaut]

I can't put enough weight on the smith machine to do squats.

Try using the 45's.....you can only fit so many ten pounders on a bar you know?

[Deezuhl]

Try using the 45's.....you can only fit so many ten pounders on a bar you know?