Compound verses isolation for mass

**lzicc** · 05-04-2005, 07:27 PM

If my goal is to gain mass for right now, is there any sense in doing any isolation movements? They seem like they would be a waste for a mass building workout.

I just changed my routine recently and have some isolation excersises for arms and shoulders and wonder if I should pull them out for now and just do all compound excersises until I get to the size I want to.

**colossus1** · 05-04-2005, 07:29 PM

isolation movements COMPLIMENT compound movements.

**HOLLYWOOD** · 05-04-2005, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by colossus1

isolation movements COMPLIMENT compound movements.

to a certain extent, personally i think exercises like leg extentions in a mass workout are kinda useless other than a couple warm-up sets leading to squats.

**colossus1** · 05-04-2005, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

to a certain extent, personally i think exercises like leg extentions in a mass workout are kinda useless other than a couple warm-up sets leading to squats.

I think of it like this...........

With compound movements you arent really going for high reps (10-12) for the most part. So hypertrophy isnt going to be awesome, this is where isolation movements come into play. Compound movements support the release of hormones and isolation movements allow proper stimuli that you cant necessarily get out of compound movements.

**HOLLYWOOD** · 05-04-2005, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by colossus1

I think of it like this...........

With compound movements you arent really going for high reps (10-12) for the most part. So hypertrophy isnt going to be awesome, this is where isolation movements come into play. Compound movements support the release of hormones and isolation movements allow proper stimuli that you cant necessarily get out of compound movements.

you couldnt be more wrong! Compound movements are probably repsonsible for 80% or more of the muscle you've gained! isolation help to carve out the muscle! take out bench press,deads,rows and squats and see how far you get!

**colossus1** · 05-04-2005, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

you couldnt be more wrong! Compound movements are probably repsonsible for 80% or more of the muscle you've gained! isolation help to carve out the muscle! take out bench press,deads,rows and squats and see how far you get!

I didnt say compound movements arent responsible for most of your growth. You need to go back and read my posts. What im trying to get across is.....

If you us deadlifts as a back exercise..........how the hell do you isolate individual back muscles after? By isolation movements of course. And you dont "carve" muscles my friend. They stay the same shape....only get smaller or bigger.

**HOLLYWOOD** · 05-04-2005, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by colossus1

I didnt say compound movements arent responsible for most of your growth. You need to go back and read my posts. What im trying to get across is.....

If you us deadlifts as a back exercise..........how the hell do you isolate individual back muscles after? By isolation movements of course. And you dont "carve" muscles my friend. They stay the same shape....only get smaller or bigger.

isolation movements are pretty much defined as a one joint movement, name some isolation movements for back?

and yes carve wasnt the best word to describe "isolation movements" but to help bring out lagging areas in a muscle would be a better description.

**colossus1** · 05-04-2005, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

isolation movements are pretty much defined as a one joint movement, name some isolation movements for back?
.

And isolation does not mean "one joint movement".it means the isolation of a particular muscle and doing an movemnt that does such.

Lat pulldowns is an isolation movement, single dumbell rows, shrugs, good mornings etc...

Compound movements for back...bent over barbell rows, deadlift, chins etc...

**HOLLYWOOD** · 05-04-2005, 08:22 PM

Compound movements support the release of hormones and isolation movements allow proper stimuli that you cant necessarily get out of compound movements (you say right here!) ".

you said that compound exercises arent done in the "hypertrophy range"and i dont understand why they couldnt be, and that hypertrophy will not be awesome with compound exercises, and "isolation exercises" allow for proper stimuli that you can get out of compound exercises!

**colossus1** · 05-04-2005, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

Compound movements support the release of hormones and isolation movements allow proper stimuli that you cant necessarily get out of compound movements (you say right here!) ".

you said that compound exercises arent done in the "hypertrophy range"and i dont understand why they couldnt be, and that hypertrophy will not be awesome with compound exercises, and "isolation exercises" allow for proper stimuli that you can get out of compound exercises!

Fine. You go and do deadlifts using 10-15 rep range and ill go 5-8 rep range. You do bent over rows in the 10-15 rep range and ill go 5-8 and we'll see who gets bigger....lol. I didnt say you cant use compound movements for hypertrophy.......you can if you like. And yes...sometimes it can be more beneficial.

Use some common sense when you read my posts please............

***Narkissos*** · 05-05-2005, 12:03 PM

What's with these ridiculous arguments?

**taiboxa** · 05-05-2005, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

What's with these ridiculous arguments?

Post count... DUH

***Narkissos*** · 05-05-2005, 12:15 PM

lol...it's cool in the lounge but outside it's a

**taiboxa** · 05-05-2005, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

lol...it's cool in the lounge but outside it's a

hey u asked the Q i give the A... so dont shake that finger at me!

**Dally** · 05-05-2005, 12:25 PM

alot of growth from my experience has been using both... see I find that the all you need to break past the barrier into new growth is through more stimulation be it one more rep, one more set, more weight etc, sometimes you get stale at something and one more of whatever is not possible thats where these two different principales come into compliment each other.

Yes squats build more mass because more fibers (from other groups) come into play, Isolation can be just as intense if not more and stimluate just as much if not MORE per muscle group.

and YES you can "carve" a muscle group...like doing hammer curls all your life is not going to give you quite the peak that concerntration curls will, nence carving.. .directing a muscle where to go and how it will look.

IMO

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 05-05-2005, 12:54 PM

i use only compound movements in the 5-8 rep range. i find it best for mass, and find isolation a waste of time. go heavy or dont bother.

**Dally** · 05-05-2005, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

i use only compound movements in the 5-8 rep range. i find it best for mass, and find isolation a waste of time. go heavy or dont bother.

helluva a scrapper that dude in your avatar there man, I guess you saw that video huh?

**HOLLYWOOD** · 05-05-2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

i use only compound movements in the 5-8 rep range. i find it best for mass, and find isolation a waste of time. go heavy or dont bother.

yup i agree

**BigJames** · 05-05-2005, 02:13 PM

Compound for mass, isolation for shape. No point in watching yourself do one arm reverse cable pulldowns if you do not have some mass on your arm IMO.

I think that part of the argument above was caused by a difference in semantics.

Compound: Any excersize that involves one or more muscle group or joint.

Isolation: Any excersize that involves only the muslce being trained, no joints.

That said, I think you CAN perform an excersize like Bent-over Barbell Rows with a lighter weight and really focus and "isolate" the muscle. That said, I would not call these isolation movements. Nor would I call a wide grip chin and isolation movement...I do not think there are many (if any) back isolation movements, maybe pullovers.

**Juggernaut** · 05-05-2005, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

i use only compound movements in the 5-8 rep range. i find it best for mass, and find isolation a waste of time. go heavy or dont bother.

I'll have to disagree with you some here Billy. Compound movements are for sure going to help add the mass form forcing the muscles to withstand more and more weight so piling on the plates for sqauts will increase the strength and add some size as well. This is great if you're a PL but if your a BB'er then this is only going to take you so far. You'll need hytrophy to get the muscles to grow beyond their usual size. The saying "no pain, no gain" wasn't something a PL came up with.....it's the BB'ers that do those hack sqauts, leg presses and such that pushed their muscles past the failure point that probably came up with that saying, just guessing here. I can tell you now there is no freakin way I'm ever going to do hytrophy lifts with squats, deads or bench with all the weight I can muster...I enjoy lifting injury free. I just don't buy it that if everyone lifts maximum poundage for low reps they are going to get the amount of size they want to see. If that's the case then all PL'ers would have bodies like BB'ers.

How many PL lifters do you see that do not weigh 160 pounds yet still manage to lift a crap load of weight? Do they look massive? Hell no. The size of a muscle dosen't denote strength. Same goes for the BB'ers that have massive muscles, I know plenty of guys larger than me yet they never lift heavy....that's not what they are after, to them it's all about size, period.

You want strength with some muscle size gains then go the PL route.....you want more muscles than what PL lifts will give then you need to do some hytrophy training, you just won't gain lots of strength from it. You have to decide what your goal is: do you want to be strong or do you want mass?

Of course you can have the best of both worlds if you alternate throughout the year PL routines and hytrophy routines. Which is what I like to do.

**Juggernaut** · 05-05-2005, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

to a certain extent, personally i think exercises like leg extentions in a mass workout are kinda useless other than a couple warm-up sets leading to squats.

Try this:

Leg extetions: load on enough weight that you can do 10 clean reps. Once you get to number 10, and with the help of a partner go for another eight. He's not allowed to lift the weight, he's only to keep you moving. When you get into a static hold state and can't move the weight he's not allowed to offer assistance until he sees you sliding backward...not before that. When you finish the 8th rep reduce the weight by 30% and do another 8 reps...after that 8th rep reduce the weight another 30% and bang out another 8.

Do two sets like that then go do squats....and only do two sets of sqauts but try and force out three to four extra reps...yes you'll have to lighten up the weight. Your legs will be so pumped you think you have tree trunks......for three days after.

**bluethunder** · 05-05-2005, 03:16 PM

To answer your original the answer is compound for mass. However, having said that does not mean that isolation is useless .

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 05-05-2005, 03:16 PM

Ive trained with that philosphy for over 5 years. In that time I have put on over 100lbs. Less than 10-20% of that time has involved gear. This is coming from someone would have sworn up and down till he was blue in the face that he was a "hardgainer"

Yet when i started, i was the guy doing lots of cable crossovers, flies, isolation curls, etc.

I wouldnt at all call it a PL routine, as Ive done that too and its still night and day.