Smith Squat vs. Free Weight Squat...

[Undecided09]

Sup boys, got a question about squatting...I always do free weight squats in the squat rack, but on occasion I will squat in the smith machine...today I decided to go smith because I didnt have my lifting parter with me and the gym was empty so no spotter available...I Have to say that in the smith machine the move is so much smoother and I feel like it hits my legs so much harder than the free weight...Now i know my form prolly is far from perfect in the free weight, but nevertheless I feel like the smith machine is really isoing mhy legs much better, does it matter that much which one I use??

[C_Bino]

I only use smith machine for squats. Not particularly because I think its better. But I have had way too many knee injuries to take any further risks, its just not worth it for me anymore after three knee dislocations etc (not from squatting though).

But yes I do feel it really impacting my quads specifically when I use the smith as opposed to when I used free weight before. I like the fact that it's easier to switch the angle at which I stand to the bar, for example you can put your feet farther forward or backward instead of them being directly under the bar.

[Undecided09]

Exactly!!! Also, you can really concentrate on good form because I feel like when I go heavy on free weights I am concentrating so hard on not droppin the shit on myself and on controlling the weight that i forget to push through my heels and before you know it im on my toes and pushing with my back etc...What about as far as growth goes???

[C_Bino]

I have always had problems with growth in my legs, namely because of the injuries. I am not one to make excuses but I really had no choice but to put off leg training for months at a time. I now have an injury in the tendon that no doctor has been able to figure out as of yet. I took a month off for that, no better. It just keeps goin on with my knees.

Anyways back to the topic, its hard for me to say as far as growth goes because I take it fairly easy on them these days, but I will say that my vastus medialis has suffered greatly, I cant say (and doubt) it has to do with using smith for squats, but hopefully Swole or another guru can help you out on that.

[Undecided09]

Yeah for sure, I had my knee scoped a couple years back, and I clearly favor it when I do legs, but no pain, so its all mental...BUMP FOR GURU COMMENTS...

[Sire]

im a free weight squater and it took me a long time to get ne good weigth on the bar cos i was always was watching my tech. alltho' it took longer i feel it has made my legs much stronger. dew to the fact that it takes into account all the mucsles that are in the area

[Undecided09]

No I am I big Free weight guy too, hate machines and any assistance, but I just feel like the Smith Squat ISO's my legs so well and thats what its all about so...Just trying to make sure I'm not losing anything, I mean for the most part I always free weight squat, but on occassion I smith and love it so...BUMP FOR THE GURU"S...

[Sire]

its real good to change it up every now and then too aye. i think it cum down to what works best for you. as long as your squating!

[ascendant]

variety is key here, and both exercises have their advantages and disadvantages.

with free-weight squats, you incorporate far more stabilization muscles, which means more fiber recruitment, which typically means more growth. also, since you're using more lower and upper back muscles and more overall muscles in general to support the weight, it's far more intense on your cns, and additionally on a very important response mechanism from your body, which is testosterone. from the studies i've read, squats help boost natural testosterone levels more than any other exercise. even when on gear, it still helps the body utilize more of the gears chems in your system as well. can't remember whether it's because it increases receptivity or what, but hopefully someone can verify the specifics on that for me. the disadvantages of free-weight squats are the lack of variety. a squat is a squat, not much else you can do with it except wider or narrower stances or going deeper into the movement.

as far as the smith machine, yes the initial disadvantages are more, including less of a testosterone increase, less stabilization muscles recruited, and less muscles in general recruited. but, bino pointed out the big difference with the smith machine which does make it useful, and that's the variety you can do with it. with the smith, you can bring your feet forward more to recruit more of the hamstrings and glutes, or bring the legs back further and recruit more of the quads. also, not using so many different muscle groups at once allows you to focus more effectively on the legs, which can prove usefull when trying to target specific areas of the muscles (lagging areas, etc).

all in all, i think if you can do free-weight squats, prioritize them, but do the smith machine squats occasionally to switch things up and keep your muscles stimulated. variety is good, but focus on what works best.

though you say you "feel" the smith machine squats more, what do you mean by that? do you mean they make your legs more sore the next day, or do you mean that during the exercise you feel it more? just because you "feel" an exercise more does not mean it's doing more. when i do really heavy squats, i can't feel anything in my legs but pain everywhere like they're on fire. but hey, it gets the results.

[Undecided09]

I mean I feel the stimulation in my legs during exercise, and a deeper soreness the next day, I mean for the most part I don't get too sore anymore, THANKS NO2, haha, but no the smith seems to hit me harder...I know Nark is gonna step in here and rip the smith, but hey I throw it in there now and again...

[*Narkissos*]

Sup boys, got a question about squatting...I always do free weight squats in the squat rack, but on occasion I will squat in the smith machine...today I decided to go smith because I didnt have my lifting parter with me and the gym was empty so no spotter available...

Does your gym have a power rack? i.e. a rack with safety arms?

If the answer to this is yes.. then that's where you should be squatting.. whether th gym is empty or full.. whether your spotter is there or not.

With the safety rack you do not have to worry about gettin stuck in the bottom position

You set up the safety arms.. and If you fail.. you leave the bar in the bottom on the supports.

That's what i do.

If you're still 'afraid'.. reduce the weight some.

I have done smith machine squats and imo they're not a real squat by any means.

They reduce hamstring recruitment imo... and that's half of the muscle groups taken out of the movement already.

Now i know my form prolly is far from perfect in the free weight, but nevertheless I feel like the smith machine is really isoing mhy legs much better,

The squat is not supposed to be an isolation-exercise.

does it matter that much which one I use??

If you want complete development.. Yes.

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

and a deeper soreness the next day,

You want deeper soreness?

Lower the weight.. work on the form... Squat below parallel.

As your poundages increase you should continue to squat below parallel.. and you should continue to squat with good form

The combination of the increased ROM (more time under pressure) +correct form (i.e. optiomal fiber recruitment) + increased poundages will give you better results

Narkissos

[Undecided09]

Thanks Nark, the Wisdom is always appreciated, I don't Smith Squat regularly, I've done it about twice in two months, so in 8 weeks I've free weight squatted 6 times, so not bad, just wondering...NExt question then....What would be a good use for the smith Machine as far as legs goes? Hack squats??

M.A.D.

[Kale]

I dont want to hijack the thread but I only have a smith machine and a leg press at my gym. In this case which would be better for overall development

[SwoleCat]

I myself only do leg press and smith, not free weight squats.

Never could really being so tall, I fall over frontwards even w/out the bar on my back just trying to "sit" all the way down/back.

Just doesn't work for me.

~SC~

[Kale]

Swole do you go heavy on the squats, I have been told not too on a smith machine, how true is that ?

[SwoleCat]

I don't go heavy, no.

I work in the 15-20 rep range, as the muscle fibers in my legs (most people for that matter) are those that grow w/higher reps and medium weight.

Heavy squats give me a bad back and sore knees. Not much benefit in that...

~SC~

[Kale]

I don't go heavy, no.

I work in the 15-20 rep range, as the muscle fibers in my legs (most people for that matter) are those that grow w/higher reps and medium weight.

Heavy squats give me a bad back and sore knees. Not much benefit in that...

~SC~

Thanks bro, I have the same problem

[Undecided09]

Really Swole??? Most of my power moves i usually keep the reps on the low side....My squats, whether is smith or free usually look like this, 12,10,8,6....Thats how I usually do it, and same goes for the leg press...

[mwolffey]

i agree with nark...when i started liftin i did nothing but smith squats....i never free squatted for a year...when i started it was a huge difference in growth, only smith squat if you wanna isolate...but you should always free squat...imo

[Zanelike]

I only use the smith for front squats. Can't do back squats on the smith. Its too restrictive for me and it bothers my low back. Like Nark said, lower the weight, work on form and go deep. The weight will come with time.

[Undecided09]

I go Deep no matter which one I use, thats not an issue, I think you guys are reading this thread wrong...I'm not having any leg trouble, and for the most part I always do free weight squats...I just wanted to know what he advantages/disadvantages/differences between free weight squats and smith squats...

[Panzerfaust]

I myself only do leg press and smith, not free weight squats.

Never could really being so tall, I fall over frontwards even w/out the bar on my back just trying to "sit" all the way down/back.

Just doesn't work for me.

~SC~

Same here...i have never done free weight squats, i about fell forward as well, the gym was full but i did'nt care, i thought i would give it a try anyway.

I also work in the 15 rep range, 8 at the least, depends on how much i put on.

[ascendant]

well, i'm sticking with my original info above as far as my opinions and knowledge on the difference between these two exercises.

personally, i don't actually consider "smith machine squats" to be "squats" in my leg exercises, which means if i do the smith machine (which i rarely ever do), i will still include other heavy compound movements as if i hadn't included any squats.

narkissos already gave you all the info on the solutions for your free weight squats regarding safety and feeling them more.

if you want to feel a particular muscle group during a movement, that's isolation exercises. compound movements are more about overall body exertion with good form as to focus on a specific muscle group while going all out.

i don't know about you, but i'm a lot more winded after a set of serious free-weight squats as opposed to doing them in the smith-machine. i also know i did more the next day with free-weight squats when i can barely walk around.

IMO, if you don't feel the free-weights more, you're missing something there, either not going deep enough, not going heavy enough, or bad form.

[*Narkissos*]

Same here...i have never done free weight squats, i about fell forward as well, the gym was full but i did'nt care, i thought i would give it a try anyway.

I also work in the 15 rep range, 8 at the least, depends on how much i put on.

I've worked with people who 'fall foward' during squatting.. These individuals if asked to execute squats in a manner that feels 'natural' for them usually end up going up on their toes when they're at the bottom of the exercise.

This indicates either a muscular imbalance.. or a restricted ROM in the calf musculature.

BUMP for Swole and Papi's input.



Muriloninja.. as to your specific problem: falling foward usually indicates a hamstring/quad imbalance

This can usually be fixed by prioritising hamstring training.

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

I know Nark is gonna step in here and rip the smith

I don't hate the smith... i just don't use it on areas which bio-mechanically don't have a strict up-and-down range of motion.

For example.. the shoulders; pecs; legs

Examine the bench press Range-of-motion.

It is an arc.. not a straight up and down movement.

Shoulder presses with a barbell are the same (providing they're being done correctly).. Squats.. the same

Squats are closer to an up-and-down movement than the two bodyparts previously mentioned.. as veiwed from the side.. the path that the bar travels is almost a straight line.

The hip/ knee/ ankle flexion however is not.

Think about it.

I do Calves in a Smith.. that's it.

If for whatever reason i can't squat.. imma leg-press and lunge.

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

I go Deep no matter which one I use

Define 'deep'.

Are you breaking parallel on each rep of each set?

I just wanted to know what he advantages/disadvantages/differences between free weight squats and smith squats...

The disadvantage/advantages have been listed above

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

I dont want to hijack the thread but I only have a smith machine and a leg press at my gym. In this case which would be better for overall development

No squat rack period?

Cha.

Hm.. in that case.. go with what you have.

What's your normal work out look?

What's you leg-training frequency?

What's the volume like?

[*Narkissos*]

I myself only do leg press and smith, not free weight squats.

Never could really being so tall, I fall over frontwards even w/out the bar on my back just trying to "sit" all the way down/back.

Just doesn't work for me.

~SC~

Was it this way even prior to your surgery/surgeries?

Nark

[*Narkissos*]

I only use the smith for front squats.

Kale.. i forgot to add..

Front squats on the smith machine are actually a pretty good exercise.

I prefer to do 'em free... but i have done 'em on the smith before and they are pretty good.

They rate higher in my mind than standard smith machien squats

They would be a good addition to your routine since your gym has no squat rack.

Nark

[ascendant]

I don't go heavy, no.

I work in the 15-20 rep range, as the muscle fibers in my legs (most people for that matter) are those that grow w/higher reps and medium weight.

Heavy squats give me a bad back and sore knees. Not much benefit in that...

~SC~

well, i think this is really dependent on the genetic disposition of a person, and should not be assumed that 15-20 would be optimal for most people.

if a persons legs have substantially (and i mean substantially) more slow-twitch fibers in them, then yes, a lighter weight with more reps as you suggested will give them better growth. however, if they have a decent amount of fast-twitch fibers in their legs, as many people do, heavier weights with more reps will be far more effective.

the optimal way to see what works for your legs is to go heavy with low reps first, and if you fail to see growth from that, then and only then lower the weights and up the reps and see if you get better results.

the reasoning behind this is that fast-twitch muscle fiber recruitment (which is what is used in the heaver weight sets) is far preferred due to it's myofibrillar hypertrophic capabilities. this means muscle size increases primarily from increases in muscle-fiber size, increasing not only muscle size, but strength as well.

slow-twitch fibers don't have much potential for growth, and those higher reps are dependent primarily on muscle sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is merely an increase in the muscle cells fluid. the disadvantage with this is with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, far less strength gains will be attained, even with increased muscle size. sometimes because of the increase in cell fluid decreasing the density of muscle fibers, it can even cause strength loss.

ultimately, IMO both high and low rep sets should be included in all your leg workouts, but i feel the majority of your sets should be focused on heavier training for the abovementioned reasons. no matter how much the higher-rep sets burn, you just won't get the "functional hypertrophy" with them, which includes the strength and power behind the mass.

[PhishStasH]

All kinds of neat-o advice on this thread. Sheesh fellaz.

BUMP

[Undecided09]

Yeah definately a great thread, who started this great thread?? haha, jk...Nark, when I say deep, yes I mean below or atleast to parallel on every rep...But its interesting becaue someone like swole doesnt recommend that, or doesn't recommend going too deep, so I find that interesting...

[Timm1704]

i find it difficult to squat much below parallel, even without a barbell on my back. i squat to parallel on the smith machine, as we have no squat rack in our gym. i tend to go with low reps (5-8) but sometimes i like to throw some 20-30 rep sets in there. i trained at a different gym last summer, and that place had a squat rack. i never used the smith machine all summer, much prefer free-weight squats. but, i like smith machine squats also

[SwoleCat]

CAPS....

well, i think this is really dependent on the genetic disposition of a person, and should not be assumed that 15-20 would be optimal for most people.

ACTUALLY, THROUGH EDUCATION AND RESEARCH, THE MAJORITY OF THE MUSCLE FIBERS IN ALL HUMANS IS ONE THAT RESPONDS BETTER TO HIGHER REPS, BEING THAT OUR LEGS CARRY US EVERYWHERE WE GO, STAIRS, ETC. THEY CAN HANDLE A LOT OF WEIGHT, AND CAN DO SO FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, HENCE THE HIGHER REPS. SO, I AM NOT ASSUMING, JUST SHARING ACTUAL FACTS ABOUT MUSCLE FIBER TYPES AND WHERE THEY ARE LOCATED. THEN AGAIN, JUST DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, THAT IS WHAT I'VE DONE ALL MY LIFE, AND WELL, I'D SAY I'M PRETTY SUCCESSFUL WITH IT AND THOSE I HELP AS WELL.

if a persons legs have substantially (and i mean substantially) more slow-twitch fibers in them, then yes, a lighter weight with more reps as you suggested will give them better growth. however, if they have a decent amount of fast-twitch fibers in their legs, as many people do, heavier weights with more reps will be far more effective.

SEE ABOVE ONCE MORE.

the optimal way to see what works for your legs is to go heavy with low reps first, and if you fail to see growth from that, then and only then lower the weights and up the reps and see if you get better results.

I DON'T SEE THAT AS OPTIMAL AT ALL, BUT YOUR ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION AS EVERYONE IS.

Again, to each his own, but if your legs ain't doing shit from 10 reps and under on squats, man up and go for 15-20 Tom Platz style with a formidable weight. Formidable weight moved for extended periods of time really sends growth signals to the legs and other parts of the body. Again, one should just try and see what works. I only care about those I help and myself because results for them and I are what I am after, and so far I haven't failed.

~SC~

[SwoleCat]

Was it this way even prior to your surgery/surgeries?

Nark

Yup.....

I have free weight squatted in the past, yes, but I didn't get any kind of mind boggling results that the smith/leg press didn't deliver.

If you train hard, eat well, rest adequately, etc., I don't see this making any huge difference in one's final look. I don't train like a pussy on the smith or leg press, and training hard is a key.

~SC~

[ascendant]

Again, to each his own, but if your legs ain't doing shit from 10 reps and under on squats, man up and go for 15-20 Tom Platz style with a formidable weight. Formidable weight moved for extended periods of time really sends growth signals to the legs and other parts of the body. Again, one should just try and see what works. I only care about those I help and myself because results for them and I are what I am after, and so far I haven't failed.
~SC~

like you said, to each his own. you really have to find what works for you, or in this case, for who you're giving the advice to. again, i think including both high and low reps for legs are good, i just think there's potentially more benefit to the heavier, less rep leg exercises for the most part. it is very dependent on genetics though and how much fast and slow-twitch fibers proportionately you have in your legs.

i've seen some people get better gains from heavier, some from lighter, just in my personal experience, most people seemed to have gained more effectively from the heavier sets. if you seemed to have found differently, then there's apparently something else we're not taking into account here. i can respectively say neither of us are right or wrong, we're just going by our experience. i didn't mean to offend you at all with my comments, just wanted to add in my personal experience in what i believed to be more effective.

[SwoleCat]

It's all good man, I'm not offended at all.

Life is too short to get offended by opinions.

Thanks,
~SC~

[chest6]

I have rarely used the smith machine. I like free weights much better. Its really hard for me to go ass to calves since my legs are so long...

[Undecided09]

If you train hard, eat well, rest adequately, etc., I don't see this making any huge difference in one's final look. I don't train like a pussy on the smith or leg press, and training hard is a key.
~SC~

If I have learned anything at all, what swole said here is it!!! As long as you are pushing your body, making sure you properly eat to match what kind of training you want to do (either bulking or cutting), and stay consistent on a day to day basis, I don't see why desireable results can't be seen...