Failure....?

**soulstealer** · 04-09-2007, 05:54 AM

I just have one question noone in my gym seems serious... who here actually takes there deadlifts or squats to failure?... not talking about breaking form I mean perfect form all the way to muscular failure?

**helium3** · 04-09-2007, 06:54 AM

i usually avoid failure by a rep or two.complete failure is useful as far as increasing fatigue threshold and can help you push through plateaus but it places great stress on the central nervous system which requires longer to recover than muscles.ever had that feeling the next day after a workout that your knuckles are dragging on the floor and you feel drained?thats more likely to be your cns that took a beating than your muscles.

also failure is not necassary for hypertrophy,although most would have you believe it is.

end result use: use forced reps or training to failure occasionally not all the time.

RA · 04-09-2007, 11:24 AM

I used to go to failure on squats all the time..I kept going through growth/peak/decine...I could never break through a certain weight. I quit doing that and Ive had steady growth.

**soulstealer** · 04-09-2007, 03:59 PM

Hmmmmmm....I have been getting pretty good gains by following this:

Week 1 = 4-6 rep range to Failure
Week 2 = 6-8 rep range to Failure
Week 3 = Pyramid to 2 rep max Not to Failure
Week 4 = 10-12 rep range Not to Failure

**MFT81** · 04-10-2007, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by helium3

i usually avoid failure by a rep or two.complete failure is useful as far as increasing fatigue threshold and can help you push through plateaus but it places great stress on the central nervous system which requires longer to recover than muscles.ever had that feeling the next day after a workout that your knuckles are dragging on the floor and you feel drained?thats more likely to be your cns that took a beating than your muscles.

also failure is not necassary for hypertrophy,although most would have you believe it is.

end result use: use forced reps or training to failure occasionally not all the time.

Studies also show that taking every set to faliure decrease testosterone levels as well,

The last set should be the only set ever taken to faliure if even that,

Most powerlifters dont take there sets to faliure when training for a new max,

there a great post by Doc Sus that shows the target rep range for each type of goal, ill try to find it.

RA · 04-10-2007, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Hmmmmmm....I have been getting pretty good gains by following this:

Week 1 = 4-6 rep range to Failure
Week 2 = 6-8 rep range to Failure
Week 3 = Pyramid to 2 rep max Not to Failure
Week 4 = 10-12 rep range Not to Failure

Im doing 12,8,6,4 and have felt like I can do more on certain sets but dont. Ive been adding 5lbs a week for several weeks now.

**soulstealer** · 04-10-2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by MFT81

Studies also show that taking every set to faliure decrease testosterone levels as well,

The last set should be the only set ever taken to faliure if even that,

Most powerlifters dont take there sets to faliure when training for a new max,

there a great post by Doc Sus that shows the target rep range for each type of goal, ill try to find it.

Cool I'd appreciate that.... I only take my last set of every exercise to failure... but I remember reading that ***ending on your goal/exercise taking the 2nd or 3rd set to failure gives different results.....

**ScottyDog** · 05-09-2007, 09:09 AM

"Studies also show that taking every set to faliure decrease testosterone levels as well"

MFT81, Do you happen to have a web links to any articles about this? Not doubting you, I'm just trying to get more info about training and CNS.

From what I read about DC training, every set, other than warm-up is taken to failure.

From the "Various Training Techniques" post:
"...then 375 for 8 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 2-4 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 1-3 reps to absolute total failure (then a 20-30 second static hold) DONE!..."

**MFT81** · 05-09-2007, 09:52 AM

I dont, sorry, i tried bre***y to look for the study I had in mind but couldnt find anything.

Ive read the results of this study a couple of times, basically it said that only the last set should be taken to failure, anything else will only dig a deeper hole for you to recover from, so to speak.

I know that you do DC which is a HIT hybrid, bottom line is that if you enjoy dc and are getting results who cares what the study says, keep doing it,.

ill look around somemore but having a hell of a time finding journal info on yahoo and google.

**MFT81** · 05-09-2007, 10:13 AM

^^Update,

this is from the Dec 06 issue of MD in the research training section i found the following....

Tension and time under tension promote muscle hypertrophy and strength. The sturcture of the weight training program is important for maximizing these two factors. While controversial, multiple sets promote muscle growth better than single sets. Which activate the muscles best? doing three sets to failure using the max weight you can lift for 10 reps or doing two sets at 90% of 10 rep max followed by a 3rd set to failure?

Canadian and American researchers found that total work was greatest during program 2. Both programs activated the muscles equally, as measured by EMG Total work and time under tension was greatest in program 2. These results are contrary to conventional wisdom and support the concept of pyramid training methods (journal science medicine sports, 9:135-142, 06)

I know that this dosent say anything about test/cortisol, igf 1 etc etc but another study I read in MF (not from MF a journal review that was in an issue)
talked about this aspect as well.

ill keep digging......

**ScottyDog** · 05-09-2007, 10:39 AM

Interesting stuff, indeed. Thx for researching this. I Don't want to hijack this thread so I'll start another.

RA · 05-09-2007, 01:06 PM

Good find and that matches my experience.

Originally Posted by MFT81

^^Update,

this is from the Dec 06 issue of MD in the research training section i found the following....

Tension and time under tension promote muscle hypertrophy and strength. The sturcture of the weight training program is important for maximizing these two factors. While controversial, multiple sets promote muscle growth better than single sets. Which activate the muscles best? doing three sets to failure using the max weight you can lift for 10 reps or doing two sets at 90% of 10 rep max followed by a 3rd set to failure?

Canadian and American researchers found that total work was greatest during program 2. Both programs activated the muscles equally, as measured by EMG Total work and time under tension was greatest in program 2. These results are contrary to conventional wisdom and support the concept of pyramid training methods (journal science medicine sports, 9:135-142, 06)

I know that this dosent say anything about test/cortisol, igf 1 etc etc but another study I read in MF (not from MF a journal review that was in an issue)
talked about this aspect as well.

ill keep digging......