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11-01-2007, 08:28 AM #42
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:22 PM.
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11-01-2007, 08:29 AM #43
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:24 PM.
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I think you are correct..
I visited bodybuiLding.com today and guess what I saw. Scroll down to page 3 on this link http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5358063
A lot of highschool kids over there. I often wonder how I would have acted back then if I had had access to the internet..LOLLast edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-01-2007 at 01:48 PM.
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I totally agree with Dante in that handling heavier weights over time plays a big factor. That's called a progressive over-load. But what about a true progressive over-load-increasing the volume to create gains as well?
Increases in muscle size can also be forth coming by simply adding volume, not just increasing the amount of weight one lifts. Why not combine both of these factors like I have done with the STS and get the best of both worlds?
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Originally Posted by IronReload04
an idea of dante is
"he has never seen someone who could incline bench 405 for reps, squat ass to grass 600 for reps, deadlift 600 for reps who was small"
absolute strength is not correlated with muscle size......but in perfect form, "STRENGTH PROGRESSION" is highly correlated with muscle growth with the proper food intake....since we are constantly getting stronger, we are contsantly feeding ourselves a stimulus to be larger.....perfect form, powerbuilding form mind you, not powerlifting form
this is the very nature of "our" progressive overload
I agree that someone who can incline press 405 for reps is not going to have a small chest. But, I have seen people who could bench 405 for reps that simply could not get a massive chest until they added flyes to their program. What do you do in those instances since you are limited to 1 exercise?
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11-01-2007, 12:48 PM #47
damn this is a good thread
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11-01-2007, 03:39 PM #48
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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11-01-2007, 03:49 PM #49
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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Training has to do with adaptation. ALL 3- Volume, Intensity and Strength have it's limitations. For e.g.; If you perform 1 intense set of heavy barbell curls twice a week, the neural pathways will eventually adjust themselves by getting stronger so they can handle an even heavier weight load next time you train. Yes, the biceps will get stronger, but not necessarily a lot bigger. Stay with me here! When you take advantage of the added strength gains made by using less volume and then co-mingling those added strength gains with additional training volume while not over-training, you can be assured you will grow bigger muscles! That is how you create a true progressive overload! You can use all the fancy beyond failure training methods such as drop sets and rest-pause for hours on end and never create a true progressive overload because limitless adaptation equals a heavier workload in conjunction with additional volume to breakdown down more muscle tissue, while never going past the point of diminishing returns.
I do not agree with DC about strength being infinite. Strength gains cannot be defined as infinite because strength gains will eventually slow down and possibly stop altogether. If strength gains were indeed infininte then we could all bench press 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, pounds plus and thats just not how it works. When a bodybuilder can bench press 400 pounds for 2 sets then incorporate periods where they do 5 sets does it mean they are not making progress in building muscle mass because they are stuck at 400 pounds? Of course not because they have added more sets to cause trauma to the tissue during the appropriate times. I call this Slingshot Periodization!! At this point caloric intake becomes a large factor as does the "anabolic priming phase" in order to make the muscles more sensitive to the volume previously used during the last "anabolic blasting phase"!!!!!
I agree with DC that you cannot progress infinetly with volume. I made that clear in the first post of this thread. But, how can he say 2 sets is the cut off point? I feel I made a good case as to why 10 sets is that cut off point. Basically, it has to do with the fact a muscle quits firing with efficiency after doing about 10 work sets.Last edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-01-2007 at 07:05 PM.
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11-01-2007, 07:15 PM #51
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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LOL...It does not take many rest-paused sets before you feel taxed.
You hit the nail on the head when you said heavy lifting increases one's metabolic rate. Sonny brought up a very good point in one of the cardio thread were he stated HIT or HIIT cardio will in fact burn more bodyfat 24 hours post training in comparison to low/moderate intensity cardio.
Here's my question to you-why would you want to become a cardio monkey during an entire mass phase when you could spend more time and energy during a designted (4 weeks) to really blast the muscles and make them grow? Not to mention you drastically increase sarcopalsmic growth which makes up roughly 30% of your muscle size!!!
When my trainees are using the STS properly they don't have the extra energy to waste on cardio during the 4 week anabolic blast because they need it for recovery. Only during the "anabolic cruise" and the "anabolic prime" is training volume lowered enough were one can benefit by adding cardio. And even though the training volume will be lowered after the "anabolic blast", sarcoplasmic growth will be maintained until the next blasting phase because you're never taking a complete lay-off unless injured or on vacation.
Does that make sense?
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11-01-2007, 08:55 PM #53New Member
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interesting chat were having
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11-01-2007, 09:19 PM #54
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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[QUOTE=IronReload04;3691927]ahhh ha
ok, i didnt catch the difference between progressive vs true overload......didnt know true overload was a term, so i take it true means volume.
A progressive over-load and a true progressive over-load are not one in the same. Creating a progressive over-load is brought forth by being able to lift more weight using the same form, amount of work sets, and rest periods between sets. A true progressive over-load (a phrase I coined) is also brought forth when you can lift more weight using the same form, and rest periods between sets, but the amount of work sets performed must be greater than what’s required to produce a progressive over-load!
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[QUOTE=IronReload04;3692175]ok
1. I believe what you are saying makes sense.......Its a logical idea and principle.....I believe it may work very well.......as far as volume...on the other hand...Let me ask you this though......if you can bench press 405 for 2 sets, does doing 5 sets with 405 cause a reason to be bigger? Why do you need to be bigger, to do 5 sets instead of 2? wierd as this may sound, I am thinking of a caveman.......if he can already press a boulder for instance 10 times for 2 sets.......what kind of adaptions are really taking place to allow him to do it for 3 additional sets........might it have something to do with endurance? My argument is that, in order for him to push a much larger boulder, he needs to be bigger to be able to do it.....or doing it will make him bigger.........perhaps your way, as well as mine, will do the trick...after all, their is multiple ways to skin a cat.
The fastest way to making the muscles hypertrophy are combining the 2 basic principles below.
1) Gaining strength! Obviously, we clearly agree on this point. This is the basis of DOGGCRAPP TRAINING. A very good concept!
2) Increasing volume through periodization in order to cause more trauma to muscle tissue. The STS and DC training principles become divided in this area.
Note: Elite powerlifters follow periodization with straight sets to peak out their strength and size gains.
Very low volume or very high volume is always a bad idea during a mass phase. I feel a lot of bodybuilders miss the boat by trying to find what they consider the perfect amount of training volume their bodies can recover from and then they stick to it indefinitely. They mistakenly believe that any work performed over that limit will take away from their recovery abilities and decrease their muscle mass. They also believe that any work done below that perfect threshold won’t break down enough muscle tissue to stimulate growth.
The logic behind their thinking is to use the perfect training volume required to stimulate muscle growth so they can stick with it indefinitely and always fully recover. What these individuals fail to realize is that the body will become over-trained by using the same routine for a prolonged period regardless of the amount of volume used! This is why periodically increasing the volume actually prevents over-training through over-adaptation. That’s right, frequent bouts of more training equal’s enhanced recovery and strength not the other way around. Obviously muscle endurance does come into play !
When many bodybuilders hit a plateau, what do they do? They begin to push even harder by adding more intensity or exercises to their routine. This kind of thinking is wrong because a muscle has to be exposed to something it is not used to doing without over-training the nervous system and joints. Adding additional exercises or trying to use beyond failure techniques is widely accepted for producing frustrated bodybuilders!
It’s no secret that progressively adding more weight to every lift is a sure-fire way to increase total lean body mass, given the diet, training volume, and exercise selection is spot on. This is precisely what the Slingshot Training System will do.
Almost everyone starts out using low volume. They grow at a phenomenal rate until the body adapts and quits responding. Because some feel the gains were so great using the lower volume approach, they begin to try and lift heavier weights while using the same program for extended periods of time. They put continued pressure on themselves to try to beat personal records each training session in hopes it will somehow further their muscle mass. Eventually these people end up with chronic injuries and/or stagnation as a result.
Now check this out! The intelligent trainer’s switch-over to using more volume, while the less fortunate keep thinking less is always more! However, the next mistake comes into play by the trainees who have switched over to using the higher volume approach. Many bodybuilders become so overwhelmed with their newly found muscle mass after having increased the volume that they begin to reason with themselves thinking more must always be done from that point on. They quickly hit a point of diminishing returns and eventually develop over-use injuries and an over-trained nervous system, instead of reverting back to using a lower amount of volume that worked so well at the beginning.
Sometimes their training will take the form of more sets-reps, exercises, intensity, training session, etc. Some are in constant search for the latest routines that will shock their muscles even further. However, all this does is hold them back even more because no one can overcome diminishing returns or keep using the same routine for extended periods of time and expect to make maximal gains!Last edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-02-2007 at 06:58 AM.
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I totaly agree about people stalling due not following logical training/dieting principles.
Okay,I can make the same arguments for volume and intensity as you are making about strength. In short, there are limitations in-
1) How fast you can progress in gaining strength
2) How much intensity you can use while avoiding over-training
3) How many sets you can perform without hitting a point of diminishing returns.
Note: I have learned that the key to maxing out one's full-genetic potential as a bodybuilder is creating a perfect balance between all 3 (Volume/Strength/Intensity).
Which training approach do you believe is going to yield the fastest gains in strength? In other words which training sytle below is the absolute best way to reach point B to point A in the shortest amount of time?
1) A rest paused set in the high rep range?
2) A straight set in the lower rep range?
Obviously it's not a good idea to keep adding sets forever. If there were a perfect linear relationship between the number of sets used each workout and the muscle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing the number of sets and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency.
On the other hand, if there were a perfect linear relationship between strength increases and the msucle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing one's strength and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency.
Here's what I have learned- You can't just keep gaining strength at a rapid pace or continue adding more sets or intensity to grow indefintely. 10 work sets per muscle group will work better than 2 for a time, but it doesn't follow that 20 sets will work better than 10. In addition, it does not mean 10 sets will always work better than 2 sets because a de-load is in order for making maximum progress to continue.
Current research tells me that a moderate volume training approach like the one used with the STS increases strength better than either a high volume (for i.e.; 20 sets) or a low volume ( for i.e.; 2 sets). I am of the belief that there is indeed an optimal training volume to be used with straight sets during specific training phases. Deviating very far below or above has compromised gains in both strength and size for those I have trained.
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IronReload what you just described sounds more like cardio conditioning that gaining strength.
I find rest-pause is comparable to laying cement block. pick up 2-20 pound block. Walk it 10 ft and lay it down. Repeat 20 times. Take 15 seconds to get back to the pile of blocks.
How can you expect to generate a high rate of torque while at the end of a rest-pause set? Would'nt it be better to avoid this type of fatigue when lifting weights. Too me rest-pause done in the higher rep range is a beyond failure technique like drop sets designed to cause hypertrophy through accumulative fatigue not making maximum strength gains.
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11-02-2007, 04:32 PM #63
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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11-02-2007, 04:35 PM #64
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:26 PM.
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Fyi!!!!!
I now understand why he calls himself Ironreload. When he runs out of ammo he simply re-loads...LOL
I wanted to make it clear to the everyone that IronReload and I are in no way arguing. We are simply presenting our views about each variable. This might just be the comparison of all time between low vs moderate volume training when we are finished.Last edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-03-2007 at 10:44 AM.
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11-03-2007, 08:34 AM #66
this is a great read!
especially since i have done Doggcrapp before with some success and now I am using STS
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I believe the more you do the above scenario the more strength gains will slow down until finally plateauing and no longer being able to gain.
Now take a very close look at the 3 day per week STS below. You'll notice the 3 day per STS is based on the "EXACT" same principle as DC training (getting progressively stronger). They're lay-out is very similar. Probably more so that any other training systems out there!
The STS involves a 2 exercise rotation as opposed to 3 rotation like DC. I did this because I feel it allows more specific adaptions to occur. I think you can build more muscle and strength by always using the 2 most productive exercises per body part as opposed to spending time on less effective movements.
I also added a higher volume phase to induce more growth. I feel the DC blast could be compared to the STS anabolic cruise (gaining more strength and some size). I feel the DC cruise could be compared to the STS anabolic prime (taking a recovery period). I do not see anything in the DC program that compares to the STS blasting phase (mass and then strength as opposed to strength and then mass like the cruise).
Heres a summary of the (3 day per week) STS-"Single-Shot" Slingshot Training System
There are 3 phases to each cycle:
1. Prime: 2 weeks 1 set per body part, low volume
2. Blast: 4 weeks 4 sets per body part, high volume
3. Cruise: 2 weeks 2 sets per body part, moderate volume
During each phase organize your workouts as follows:
A.
Chest
Shoulders
Triceps
Back width
Biceps
Brachialis
B.
Calves
Lat thickness
Traps
Quads
Hams
Abs
Alternate workouts as follows:
Monday: A
Wednesday: B
Friday: A
Monday: B
Choose 1 key (or primary) compound exercise and 1 secondary (compound or isolation) exercise for each muscle group. Then take those exercises and rotate them using only 1 per workout so that the above rotation looks like this:
Monday: A Key
Wednesday: B Key
Friday: A Secondary
Monday: B Secondary
Wednesday A Key
Friday B Key
REPS- Unless otherwise stated all reps are performed to "good failure" i.e.
the point at which no further reps are possible in good form
SETS Do up to 3 warm up sets and then perform your work sets as follows (with the exception of abs/brachialis/traps and hams which only require 1 set)
1. PRIME- Key exercises are performed only
1 set 12-15 reps
2. BLAST
i) Key
1st set- 6-8 rep 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps
3rd set 6-8 reps
4th set 12-15 reps
ii) Secondary
1st set- 12-15 reps
2nd set 8-10 reps
3rd set 8-10 reps
4th set 4-6 (or 6-8 reps if isolation exercise)
3. CRUISE- effectively 1st and 2nd sets of BLAST
i) Key
1st set 6-8 reps 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps
ii) Secondary
1st set 12-15 reps
2nd set 8-10 reps
So my question is- how do you "BLAST" with low volume?Last edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-03-2007 at 05:00 PM.
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1) I think the heat is caused by eating 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight.
2) More weight training volume also increased appetite, sweat, blood flow, revs up the metabolism, etc.
3) Some 300 lbers don't eat as much as a lot of 180 lbers.
Don't you think the body would eventually adapt to aerobics if not given a break?
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11-05-2007, 10:34 AM #69
i used to be a cardio bunny i did it for almost 2 yrs straight and this is the first time ive taken off from cardio (its been 3 weeks so far without cardio, i have one week left) and i gotta say i still feel great, i dont feel "heavy". Once the cruise phase comes ill do cardio 3 times a week for 45-60 min.
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11-05-2007, 02:14 PM #70
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:26 PM.
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11-06-2007, 01:16 AM #71
one more thing to add
from the dc/low volume perspective
if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come
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I'm not sure exaclty why strength gains alone would always equate to more size gains in low volume training and not for everyone? For instance some strength coaches.
I would still choose only 2 exercises as opposed to 3. It is too long before you hit the first exersice again. I don't think you can make the kind of progress most bodybuilders would want with a 3 way rotation. You said yourself that you made great gains using fewer exercises. It's because the body needs some repetitive motion . You cannot get as much out of an exercise with infrequency. Adaptation is what causes muscle growth!!Last edited by Ronnie Rowland; 11-06-2007 at 09:41 AM.
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11-06-2007, 10:54 AM #73
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:26 PM.
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11-06-2007, 10:56 AM #74
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:26 PM.
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11-06-2007, 12:41 PM #75
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:26 PM.
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I am not discounting at all that you can make gains that way or even that its a bad way to train. I just think it's best to use only 2 exercises with more frequency because progressive overload is a tried and true fact. Meaning you adapt to the exercises and increase work load capacity over time. Not to mention that as you log your training you can track progress.
Here's a good example how progress is made using the 3 day per week STS. Many of my trainees use the 15 degree decline bench press as their "key exercise". Come next chest training session they use the 15 degree incline press as a "secondary exercise". Due to the fact they keep going back to their key exercise (decline press) every other chest workout they find that they are ahead of where they left off and they begin making fresh progress.
Part of this progress is due to the fact that they are working different secondary and supportive muscles with the secondary exercise (incline presses) as they get stronger. They find that it helps their key exercise (decline press) thus making it possible to lift heavier and the cycle of growth begins a new. It's basic power-lifting fundamentals!
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What you just described is another reason I am not a big fan of rest pause. Simply stated, you are doing 3 mini-sets in 1 long set but it's not the same as 3 straight sets performed with plenty of rest between sets.
Follow me closely here! Who do you think would make the most gains; a guy who performs dead-lifts with 4 sets of 10 reps using 400 lbs or a guy who does 1 triple drop set using 400 lbs, 350 lbs, 300 lbs and finally 270 lbs? The obvious answer is the guy who used more weight on all 4 sets for teh dead-lift. Why? Because straight sets allows you the power to lift a greater weight-load range.
With beyond failure techniques such as reat-pause and drop sets, you’re basically breaking down less muscle tissue yet annihilating the nervous system and joints. With each subsequent set you are using fewer reps with the same amount of weight. A rest-paused set done in the 8-12 rep range cannot possibly create the same kind of strength gains that are obtained by using a straight set for 4-6 reps simply because you cannot lift heavy when training near the point of non-stop.
How can low volume advocates get around this scenario?
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I certainly understand and agree with DC Training that changing exercises in order to confuse the muscles and make them grow does not work as described.
Slingshot Training confuses the muscles by simply loading and de-loading with straight sets all while using the same 2 exercises over and over again.
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11-07-2007, 02:25 PM #79
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Last edited by IronReload04; 11-18-2007 at 08:27 PM.
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1) Dead-lifts and squats are considered two of the best exercises for building over-all strength and size. I do not think DC will dispute this fact. And I realize the reason DC Training does not rest-pause these 2 exercises (dead-lifts and squats) is because it can cause injury to the back. If you think about it, this sides with my side of the argument in that rest-pause training is not user friendly. The way I see it, all compound movements should be treated the same. For instance, Slingshot Training takes into consideration that the shoulders are one of the most vulnerable joints in the body. More bodybuilders experience shoulder problems than other body part. Why not give over-head presses and chest presses 2 straight sets as welll since this area can be injured just as easily if not easier than the back? I feel this is a very good question!
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