Returns you get for your effort!!!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Returns you get for your effort.

You get the most returns for your efforts with the first 3 sets for any given body part. Regardless of how many different exercises you perform for a given bodypart the ability to generate intensity is reduced considerably by the time you finish set # 5. Considerably less and less muscle tissue will be broken down with each consecutive set there after. After that point, the curve starts to taper off but 6 sets still provides gains. After 6 sets the curve continues to slope down and you will obtain even less results for your efforts! This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain strength.

There's a strong correlation between getting the most returns for your efforts during the first 5 sets of an exercise and increasing your odds of developing an over-use injury when exceeding 5 sets. Your ability to generate intensity using only 1 exercise for a particular body part will be greatly diminished by the time you've finished 5 sets. By switching over to a second exercise after doing 5 sets of the first exercise, you will increase the returns you get for your efforts during the second exercise because you'll be working from a different angle. The second exercise will fully breakdown down the remaining muscle fibers that are present within the muscle group. This means trying to go past that point by inserting a 3rd exercise would be a complete waste of time because the entire muscle has already been broken down. By doing 5 sets a piece with your two main exercises you will break down more muscle tissue and gain more strength than if you were to perform 16 sets with 4 different exercises. Performing upwards of 16-20 sets for a body part in one session would cause you to waste a lot of time because a muscle no longer fires with optimal force once you go past doing 10 sets. Regardless of how many different exercises you use for a particular body part, the ability to generate intensity is over with after 10 work sets. This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain size.

Performing more than 10 sets will make you refrain from using great intensity on every work set. For instance, if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you had 15 sets left using 3 different exercises, you wouldn't push yourself nearly as hard as if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you only had 5 sets left with only 1 other exercise. After completing 10 sets for a body part, it's virtually impossible to generate enough intensity to further break down any substantial amount of muscle tissue. By trying to do so, it creates a scenario where the Central Nervous System and joints have to work harder to keep moving the weights while the muscles are working less. You can only stimulate the muscles so much in any given training session. After reaching the point of diminishing returns, high volume trainers who train each body part using 16-20 sets have to over-strain to try and make up for the muscles inability to put forth effort. This creates tons of stress and possible injuries to the muscles, tendons, and joints. When fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists (which generally give out faster than the prime movers) become too tired to allow maintenance of proper form, you're asking for an injury. Train till the muscles gives out; not the joints!

FACT: Adding in a few extra sets after the completion of 10 work sets is not going to do anything but lengthen your workout and hamper the recovery process. The muscle is sufficiently stressed and fatigued already. Lastly, the extra sets would expose you to injury through over-use!

[Tenmoney]

Aswesome post. Where can I read the data about how the curve in muscle breakdown drops after the 5th set?

[moush]

great post! I would also like to see that data

[sonnygll]

Returns you get for your effort.

You get the most returns for your efforts with the first 3 sets for any given body part. Regardless of how many different exercises you perform for a given bodypart the ability to generate intensity is reduced considerably by the time you finish set # 5. Considerably less and less muscle tissue will be broken down with each consecutive set there after. After that point, the curve starts to taper off but 6 sets still provides gains. After 6 sets the curve continues to slope down and you will obtain even less results for your efforts! This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain strength.

There's a strong correlation between getting the most returns for your efforts during the first 5 sets of an exercise and increasing your odds of developing an over-use injury when exceeding 5 sets. Your ability to generate intensity using only 1 exercise for a particular body part will be greatly diminished by the time you've finished 5 sets. By switching over to a second exercise after doing 5 sets of the first exercise, you will increase the returns you get for your efforts during the second exercise because you'll be working from a different angle. The second exercise will fully breakdown down the remaining muscle fibers that are present within the muscle group. This means trying to go past that point by inserting a 3rd exercise would be a complete waste of time because the entire muscle has already been broken down. By doing 5 sets a piece with your two main exercises you will break down more muscle tissue and gain more strength than if you were to perform 16 sets with 4 different exercises. Performing upwards of 16-20 sets for a body part in one session would cause you to waste a lot of time because a muscle no longer fires with optimal force once you go past doing 10 sets. Regardless of how many different exercises you use for a particular body part, the ability to generate intensity is over with after 10 work sets. This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain size.

Performing more than 10 sets will make you refrain from using great intensity on every work set. For instance, if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you had 15 sets left using 3 different exercises, you wouldn't push yourself nearly as hard as if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you only had 5 sets left with only 1 other exercise. After completing 10 sets for a body part, it's virtually impossible to generate enough intensity to further break down any substantial amount of muscle tissue. By trying to do so, it creates a scenario where the Central Nervous System and joints have to work harder to keep moving the weights while the muscles are working less. You can only stimulate the muscles so much in any given training session. After reaching the point of diminishing returns, high volume trainers who train each body part using 16-20 sets have to over-strain to try and make up for the muscles inability to put forth effort. This creates tons of stress and possible injuries to the muscles, tendons, and joints. When fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists (which generally give out faster than the prime movers) become too tired to allow maintenance of proper form, you're asking for an injury. Train till the muscles gives out; not the joints!

FACT: Adding in a few extra sets after the completion of 10 work sets is not going to do anything but lengthen your workout and hamper the recovery process. The muscle is sufficiently stressed and fatigued already. Lastly, the extra sets would expose you to injury through over-use!

I mostly agree with that. However on higher volume routines using accumulated fatigue, the number of sets will be higher. Like say you do 3 rep sets at 80%, the number is more like 10 to 12. Or with GVT 10X10 at 66 to 70%. So I think it's workload or total volume rather than X number of sets.

But yea, all that 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 5 exercises for 8 to 12 reps close to failure stuff is silly. Joe Weider, who publishes magazines and probably doesn't know dick about weight lifting came up with that nearly 40 years ago. Strange that it is still being used. I guess people read about it in Muscle Mag and think that's the way to go.

Speaking of that, those random body part splits are pretty outdated too. Splitting by movement makes WAY more sense. Like people say it's movements, not muscles.

[IronReload04]

deleted

[Ronnie Rowland]

i still think 10 sets is way over kill

this is about adaption, not beating the shit out of yourself.........I think in terms of providing the stimulus into becoming a larger me, not seeing how much muscle damage i can accumulate......




we are talking about adaption here......muscles adapting to lift a larger weight-thus becoming larger to do so



who is to say this cannot be accomplished with one set? 2???? 3????


if you can do one set for a muscle and only 1, and come back next time, and do more weight for the same reps for that one set.......over time, get huge strength gains that add up, you will get huge size gains........a wise man once said he who makes the largest strength gains in perfect and safe form makes the greatest size gains......



for me, 2 and only 2 worksets total per muscle is my sweet spot.......I am adding 5-10 pounds to the bar every single time and tieing the reps i got last time.........thats freak progress to be doing that "every" single time....since i have been using my yates like system, also with its fair share of forced reps, has allowed my to make freakshow gains in a short period of time...


in conclusion, i am respectfully disagreeing that 10 sets is where things should be.........it does not make sense to me..........my tihnking is that the less you can get away with, the easier it is for the body to recover from, thus the more likely over compensation will occur. and the more resoursces the body has to use...


jmo

IronReload, I mean no disrespect but your statements make absolutely no sense. I hope you will listen to what I have to say here because it will help you gain more muscle size.

It's impossible for anyone to continue adding 5-10 pounds to the bar "every" single time they train. I do not understand why people make such bogus claims? You know deep down this is incorrect. I have trained a many of power-lifters. None of my trainees (power-lifters or bodybuilders) have been able to add 5-10 lbs every single time they train nor will they ever be able to. It's impossible! Again, you cannot believe everything being posted on the internet! I think you are sincere in what you believe and do not question your intelligence for a moment, but I think you have lost your way like so many others on the bodybuilding boards.

Many are being brainwashed into thinking super low volume/high intensity training is the path that leads to greatness. I hope to change this belief. After all, if using only very low volume on a long term basis produced better gains, then by all means, I would be encouraging everyone including myself to use it. I would have no problem whatsoever with performing only 2 sets for each body part every week and neither would anyone else. Unfortunately, it just doesn’t work that way! I think most realize it’s a bogus way to train for extended periods of time and that’s the reason most elite bodybuilders of this era (both natural and drug enhanced) use more volume!

On the other hand, some are also being brainwashed into believing super high volume always equal more gains. Now, if using high volume for extended periods of time equated more gains then, I would have my clients use 30 intense sets for each body part every single week of the year. I think most realize high volume is a bogus way to train long term and that’s the reason most of the pro-bodybuilders of this era have left this style of training.

It's very disappointing for me to watch both avid lower volume trainees and higher trainees overlook the success that can be made by alternating back and forth between the two different types of training protocols using sensible training intensity. And this effect is rapidly lost after only a few weeks. I’ve experimented with this multiple ways, and the three-way training phase rotation (prime-blast-cruise) will keep from plateauing until you reach your full-genetic potential.

I agree that if you fail to reach your ultimate strength levels as a bodybuilder, you will not be able to reach your full genetic muscular potential. However, powerlifting is not the same as bodybuilding and if you want to truly be good at either you will do well to remember this. Isolation and Pump are critical to making any muscle grow larger. Strength gains can occur without any size gains! And even worse, those who equate very low volume strength gains with muscle size will reduce their ability to break down the muscle fibers in their entirety. Performing only 1 to 2 sets per body major body part doesn’t produce enough of a flushing effect to aid in muscle/joint recovery. There will be no extra blood to flush oxygen and nutrients into the tissue. The lack of pump will not stretch out the fascia and give the muscles more room to expand. A nice pump creates internal pressure within the muscle that causes the fibers to rub viciously against one another. This rubbing creates trauma to the tissue and the body sends essential amino acids to repair the damage.

That being said, you do not have to create a tremendous pump, just as you CANNOT improve on strength each training session to gain muscle. Regardless of what you may have been told, no one’s nervous system tolerates beyond failure training very well. The bad kind of pain it creates to the joints is unbearable for most and it makes them dread going to the gym. Training with beyond failure techniques does not mean that you will tap into all available muscle fibers. The only way to stimulate all the fibers in their entirety is to increase training volume by way of adding straight sets during the appropriate time frames.

In final, Mike Mentzer made his best gains doing 10 sets a week not only 1 or 2 sets like many have been led to believe. Dorian Yates made the majority of his gains when he was using about 12 sets once a week.

[MuscleScience]

See if you guys can find this paper I cant upload the whole paper due to size.

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS

RALPH N. CARPINELLI1, ROBERT M. OTTO1, RICHARD A. WINETT2

1Human Performance Laboratory, Adelphi University, Garden City, New York 11530 USA
2Center for Research in Health Behavior, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 USA

ABSTRACT

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS. Ralph N. Carpinelli, Robert M. Otto, Richard A. Winett. JEPonline 2004;7(3):1-60. In February 2002, the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) published a Position Stand entitled Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults. The ACSM claims that the programmed manipulation of resistance-training protocols such as the training modality, repetition duration, range of repetitions, number of sets, and frequency of training will differentially affect specific physiological adaptations such as muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance. The ACSM also asserts that for progression in healthy adults, the programs for intermediate, advanced, and elite trainees must be different from those prescribed for novices. An objective evaluation of the resistance-training studies shows that these claims are primarily unsubstantiated. In fact, the preponderance of resistance-training studies suggest that simple, low-volume, time-efficient, resistance training is just as effective for increasing muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance—regardless of training experience—as are the complex, high-volume, time-consuming protocols that are recommended in the Position Stand. This document examines the basis for many of the claims in the Position Stand and provides an objective review of the resistance training literature.

[IronReload04]

deleted

[Ronnie Rowland]

dorian yates was using roughly 3-5 work sets.....specifically about 4 in blood and guts, when he was muscularly the largest he had ever been


i agree that strength gains are not always a direct result of muscle gains.....But i whole heartedly agree that they are most definately a precursor at the very least to size gains.....and some times, strength is a result of mass ganes

force=mass(acceleration).....it follows that strength gains can be either nuerological or by mass



*lifting progressively heavier weights over time has shown to lead to size gains time and time again
*imo- the real key to muscle growth is stringing together workout after workout, for years on end, where strength progress occurs "every" single time.....by whatever means necessary...scratching and clawing with the 2.5 pound plates.....putting 2.5 plates on calf and lat machines and whatever else
*over time- he who makes the greatest strength gains, makes the greatest size gains ""





so answer me this........once the stimulus for growth is reached, what does more sets offer? you think it takes 10 sets....I believe it takes 1-3.....thats where we differ on opinions.....to boot, 1-3 sets is easier for the body to heal from

it is still my opinion that 2 sets only is sufficient for muscle growth....it is most definately sufficienct for strength gains.....in order to be the largest i can be, i must be the strongest i can be......I believe that the day i am incline benching 405 for reps, squatting 600 ass to grass for 10, deadlifting 600 for 10, will be the day i am pretty damn muscular....exposure to heavier weights over time, will lead to larger and larger muscle mass, even though, strength gains dont have to be a direct result of muscle gains


once again jmo



ps- you should never refrain from doing a working thing.....muscle growth and progress for an individual is so rare in this day and age

IronReload, thanks for the very good discussion!!

1) You cannot scatch and claw your way to making weight increases every single training session. Everyone who has trained for over 6 months knows this. This is excatly why power-lifters use periodization as opposed to doing the same amount of work. It take proper periodization to get stronger.

2) You ask me what more sets have to offer? Think of it like this-as a bodybuilder, anything below 4 reps won’t recruit and exhaust the muscle fibers sufficiently. Squatting for 3 sets of 6 reps breaks down more muscle tissue than squatting 6 sets of 3 reps, even though the total reps are the same. Why? It's because the contractile proteins in a cell are responsible for the majority of muscular growth. In order to make these contractile proteins grow larger, you must expose them to enough stress to do actual damage-hence another reason always utilizing very low volume is a poor choice for building maximum muscle mass. It is not enough to recruit a muscle fiber per se, you must also damage the actin and myosin filaments within if you want that muscle to grow considerably larger. This is brought forth by doing most of your sets in the 8-10 rep-ranges, especially after doing your heaviest set.


Some of the low volume bodybuilders I take under my wing have a real struggle at first with the concept of using more sets and weight training days as a part of a mass/strength-building phase. This is because they have made some of their best gains both in muscle and strength by reducing training volume. It’s these same people who did not understand that it took a previously performed higher volume training phase in order to set their body up for making the additional gains during the un-loading phase that followed. Make sense?

3) Muscle growth and progress for today is not as rare as you have been led to believe. My clients make incredible progress but with any good program things begin to slow down as they near their full potential.

4) Yates ruinied his joints, tendons, muscles and career by using beyond failure techniques with low volume. It wasn't his training style that made him Huge just as it wasn't Arnold's training style that made him huge. It was GENETICS!

[eddy tye]

lots of good stuff in here,thx for the post guys

[IronReload04]

deleted

[Ronnie Rowland]

I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YATES.......HE SAID IT HIMSELF IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE REALLY TOOK OFF AFTER HIS ROUTINE EVOVED INTO WHAT IT WAS COMPARED TO HIS SLIGHTLY HIGHER VOLUME DAYS IN THE LATE 80'S.




GOOD CONVO GOING HERE

O, I ANSWERED IN CAPS, BY THE WAY INSIDE THE QUOTE

1) I agree that age plays a role in making progress but even the youth will not be able to make progress every single time they lift. I have been training a 57 year old ex-marine who has made just as many strength gains as a natural as most of the youth I have trained who were natural. Oddly enough, he recently found out his testosterone levels were 282. Now thats low! He started on HRT last week. Anxious to see who well he progresss. I agree with you that having the mentality of progression needs to always be there!


2) I train power-lifters as well as bodybuilders and know very well what these men are capable of in terms of being able to diet down and do well for a bodybuilding competition. This has to do with genetics and higher rep training. My powerlifters have a low rep day earlier in the week to build strength and some muscle followed by a higher rep training session later in the week to build endurance, muscle size and some strength.

3) I have yet to see anyone use Dorian Yates training methods of only 4 sets once a week and duplicated his results. Have you? Of course not! I am of the opinion that Dorian responded well to drugs (genetics once again) and would have been able to gain even more size and competed years down the road if it weren't for the training style he used during the latter part of his career.

Go read about the injuries Dorian Yates occured when he started beyond failure training? He did more harm that good!

[sonnygll]

See if you guys can find this paper I cant upload the whole paper due to size.

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS

RALPH N. CARPINELLI1, ROBERT M. OTTO1, RICHARD A. WINETT2

1Human Performance Laboratory, Adelphi University, Garden City, New York 11530 USA
2Center for Research in Health Behavior, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 USA

ABSTRACT

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS. Ralph N. Carpinelli, Robert M. Otto, Richard A. Winett. JEPonline 2004;7(3):1-60. In February 2002, the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) published a Position Stand entitled Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults. The ACSM claims that the programmed manipulation of resistance-training protocols such as the training modality, repetition duration, range of repetitions, number of sets, and frequency of training will differentially affect specific physiological adaptations such as muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance. The ACSM also asserts that for progression in healthy adults, the programs for intermediate, advanced, and elite trainees must be different from those prescribed for novices. An objective evaluation of the resistance-training studies shows that these claims are primarily unsubstantiated. In fact, the preponderance of resistance-training studies suggest that simple, low-volume, time-efficient, resistance training is just as effective for increasing muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance—regardless of training experience—as are the complex, high-volume, time-consuming protocols that are recommended in the Position Stand. This document examines the basis for many of the claims in the Position Stand and provides an objective review of the resistance training literature.

I know what paper you are talking about. It was discovered the old ACSM guidelines were made from a study of untrained lifters. So it is valid only for novices. Where as more advanced lifters need more sets.


Slingshot, I totally agree on that beyond failure stuff. That is an advanced tool for very light and occasional use. It makes no sense all the people you see blowing out the CNS, risking injury, and on top of that, their partner is lifting most of the weight.

Ironreload, 10 sets is not always overkill. Look at German Volume Training for example. A very effective training protocol created by the legendary Charles Poliquin.

[MuscleScience]

I know what paper you are talking about. It was discovered the old ACSM guidelines were made from a study of untrained lifters. So it is valid only for novices. Where as more advanced lifters need more sets.


Slingshot, I totally agree on that beyond failure stuff. That is an advanced tool for very light and occasional use. It makes no sense all the people you see blowing out the CNS, risking injury, and on top of that, their partner is lifting most of the weight.

Ironreload, 10 sets is not always overkill. Look at German Volume Training for example. A very effective training protocol created by the legendary Charles Poliquin.

No this is a different paper. It is a review article that is over 50 pages long and has 170 references in it. It is pretty much one of the most current and best described papers in modern resistance training theory to date. I actually cited this paper in my dissertation last May.

[Ronnie Rowland]

No this is a different paper. It is a review article that is over 50 pages long and has 170 references in it. It is pretty much one of the most current and best described papers in modern resistance training theory to date. I actually cited this paper in my dissertation last May.

Muscle Science,the defintion of low volume and high can mean many things to different people. For some 10 sets is low volume. What's their definition of low volume vs high volume?

[MuscleScience]

Muscle Science,the defintion of low volume and high can mean many things to different people. For some 10 sets is low volume. What's their definition of low volume vs high volume?

I really dont have any opinion on the matter right now. All the data shows that you get just as much benefit from one set of a particular exercise within a good working resistance range as is doing 3 to 4 or more sets. My personal bias tells me that doing one set would do nothing for me. But a lot of good research studies that have come out lately from very reputable labs from scientists a lot smarter than me that say other wise.

To tell you the truth even in the exercise science field right now. The two major organizations NSCA and ACSM are a odds with each other on some things. To add to that a newer organization ASEP has its own set of recommendations. I tend to follow ACSM and ASEP, were ASEP is the most current and unbiased with its information.

[sonnygll]

I really dont have any opinion on the matter right now. All the data shows that you get just as much benefit from one set of a particular exercise within a good working resistance range as is doing 3 to 4 or more sets. My personal bias tells me that doing one set would do nothing for me. But a lot of good research studies that have come out lately from very reputable labs from scientists a lot smarter than me that say other wise.

To tell you the truth even in the exercise science field right now. The two major organizations NSCA and ACSM are a odds with each other on some things. To add to that a newer organization ASEP has its own set of recommendations. I tend to follow ACSM and ASEP, were ASEP is the most current and unbiased with its information.

That is the old ACSM guielines. The studies were on untrained lifters. So it's only valid for novices. It seems to me the new guidelines state that now.

At the top you see the old guidelines. At the bottom is the new ones. As you can see for hypertrophy it states higher volume multi-set programs. But with that said regardless of goals, it is still better to start with the beginner program and not advance to the hypertrophy programs until later.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Guidelines.html

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

Great thread guys!

I myself find that the sweet spot for me is 9-12 working sets, depending on the size of the muscles I am working. I've tried high volume, moderate weight workouts and my muscles don't feel anything the next day, I've tried low reps/sets with heavy weights and feel my muscles are somewhat underutilized. So the 10 sets philosophy, either 2 exercises of 5 sets or 3 exercises of 3(to4) sets, allows you to 1. Hit one muscle from more angles, 2. activate fast and slow twitch fibers (especially if you do a pyramid scheme upwards or downwards) and 3. sufficiently and with intensity, burn out your muscles without annihilating your CNS and causing overtraining.

From my experiences,
just my .02,
cheers

[Ronnie Rowland]

Great thread guys!

I myself find that the sweet spot for me is 9-12 working sets, depending on the size of the muscles I am working. I've tried high volume, moderate weight workouts and my muscles don't feel anything the next day, I've tried low reps/sets with heavy weights and feel my muscles are somewhat underutilized. So the 10 sets philosophy, either 2 exercises of 5 sets or 3 exercises of 3(to4) sets, allows you to 1. Hit one muscle from more angles, 2. activate fast and slow twitch fibers (especially if you do a pyramid scheme upwards or downwards) and 3. sufficiently and with intensity, burn out your muscles without annihilating your CNS and causing overtraining.

From my experiences,
just my .02,
cheers

Very nice job of summing things up!!!

Moderate volume has worked best for everyone I have trained. I've never had a single client who made better gains by always doing what I define as low volume or high volume. You can make gains doing just about anything, but maximium progress is always obtained using a more moderate approach.

[IronReload04]

deleted

[sonnygll]

Yep, sounds like you're a genetic freak alright. Must be nice. Mine are kinda crappy.

[IronReload04]

deleted

[IronReload04]

deleted

[Ronnie Rowland]

and dorian has stated himself in interviews

some thing along the lines


if you could put my head in some of these other guys' bodies, theirs no telling what could have been.....I win because i am more determined and driven then the rest


implying that some of the other guys had greater genetic abilities

Ironreload, first I'd like to say job well done! You have some very good genetics and I am sure you train very hard.

A friend of mine who competed as a bodybuilder never looked worse after having met Dorian. Yates had him believing all that was needed is 1 beyond failure work set a week. My friend got fat and eventually had to have his tricep tendon repaired from doing skull-crushers rest-paused style. Again, you simply cannot believe everything you read about how some of these pros claim to train.

I'll post a before and after pic a bit later in this same thread to show you what the Slingshot Training System is capable of doing for someone like mysef who has poor genetics. I am your classic skinny-fat man...LOL..You have seen Tricky Jackson and already see what it can do for someone with very good genetics.



I regards to rest-pause training- I’ve witnessed more tendon tears from rest-pause techniques than any other form of training. I've had one severe tendon injury in my lifting career and it came about from using rest-pause. Remember, once you are injured, that area may never be the same! I’m not telling you that straight sets or my training system is the only one way to success, or that all other training systems are wrong. I’m all about teaching others what I have found to be optimal. Yates was HIT but I do not think DC likes to be associated with HIT and for that I cannot blame him one bit.


The biggest training myth of all times says that people should use different training techniques to compliment their genetic make-up. It’s simply not true! Nor does experience dictate which training methods (straights sets verses beyond failure techniques) are most effective. Just because something has been shown to work doesn't mean it’s the best way!


Often I have heard statements from other trainees letting me know that many are still clueless about the role genetics play in how one responds to training, diet and especially drugs. The term genetics is certainly an over-used word in the bodybuilding community. I really hate to say it again but here goes- “just because someone with better genetics is getting bigger-stronger-leaner using a particular routine doesn’t prove they are doing things the right way”!


Over the past 25 years I have run into all kinds of beyond failure fanatics. The human body wasn’t designed to go beyond failure. If you cannot lift a weight on your own within a given set, the weight load is too heavy! Extreme training methods have tore many a tendon clean off the bone and just about everyone who uses these techniques for long periods of time always develops a severe injury. Dorian Yates is a prime example!


Furthermore, techniques like rest-pause can weaken the muscle so severely it will cause a tendon to rip clean off the bone before muscle failure occurs in the rest-paused reps within the set. It makes no difference whether or not the rest-paused reps are performed in the high or low rep range because extreme fatigue is still present and this stress carries over to the vulnerable tendons and joints. The secret is training till the muscles give out; not the joints!


Listen, I’ve spoken with literally thousands of trainers over the years who can vividly recall their last and final beyond failure training session. They grew to hate training and the gym with all their heart, mind, and soul! I think this speaks volumes about its validity in training to get huge muscles. I have been around bodybuilders for almost 30 years and I truly believe many have the dedication to apply themselves. I don’t want others to make the mistake of pumping up their muscles with massive amounts of blood or pushing the muscles beyond belief with low reps/sets and when they’re finished, be no better off muscle wise. With that being said, there are some beyond failure training programs out there that will allow trainees to gain muscle at a nice pace. But, there are usually consequences that follow. Oddly enough, training with beyond failure techniques and having to take a very long lay-off from the gym due to an injury is the best thing that’s happened to some people. Why? They wise up to the fact their body and mind can’t take that kind of abuse for long before eventually having to give up training altogether. These individuals soon realize there’s no value in training methods that aren’t user friendly. It’s no secret that beyond failure training methods will impair the body’s immune defense against infection and this is the very reason the people who follow these types of programs catch colds and viral infections at least twice as often as normal trainees. Your main concern as a bodybuilder should be longevity! Unfortunately, much of what has been written is doing a lot more harm than good. It’s brought forth much confusion and inconsistencies to the bodybuilding community, not to mention some very nasty injuries!

[sonnygll]

Ironreload, first I'd like to say job well done! You have some very good genetics and I am sure you train very hard.

A friend of mine who competed as a bodybuilder never looked worse after having met Dorian. Yates had him believing all that was needed is 1 beyond failure work set a week. My friend got fat and eventually had to have his tricep tendon repaired from doing skull-crushers rest-paused style. Again, you simply cannot believe everything you read about how some of these pros claim to train.

I'll post a before and after pic a bit later in this same thread to show you what the Slingshot Training System is capable of doing for someone like mysef who has poor genetics. I am your classic skinny-fat man...LOL..You have seen Tricky Jackson and already see what it can do for someone with very good genetics.



I regards to rest-pause training- I’ve witnessed more tendon tears from rest-pause techniques than any other form of training. I've had one severe tendon injury in my lifting career and it came about from using rest-pause. Remember, once you are injured, that area may never be the same! I’m not telling you that stright sets or my training system is the only one way to success, or that all other training systems are wrong. I’m all about teaching others what I have found to be optimal. Yates was HIT but I do not think DC likes to be associated with HIT and for that I cannot blame him one bit.


The biggest training myth of all times says that people should use different training techniques to compliment their genetic make-up. It’s simply not true! Nor does experience dictate which training methods (straights sets verses beyond failure techniques) are most effective. Just because something has been shown to work doesn't mean it’s the best way!


Often I have heard statements from other trainees letting me know that many are still clueless about the role genetics play in how one responds to training, diet and especially drugs. The term genetics is certainly an over-used word in the bodybuilding community. I really hate to say it again but here goes- “just because someone with better genetics is getting bigger-stronger-leaner using a particular routine doesn’t prove they are doing things the right way”!


Over the past 25 years I have run into all kinds of beyond failure fanatics. The human body wasn’t designed to go beyond failure. If you cannot lift a weight on your own within a given set, the weight load is too heavy! Extreme training methods have tore many a tendon clean off the bone and jsut about everyone who uses these techniques for long periods of time always develops a severe injury. Dorian Yates is a prime example!


Furthermore, techniques like rest-pause can weaken the muscle so severely it will cause a tendon to rip clean off the bone before muscle failure occurs in the rest-paused reps within the set. It makes no difference whether or not the rest-paused reps are performed in the high or low rep range because extreme fatigue is still present and this stress carries over to the vulnerable tendons and joints. The secret is training till the muscles gives out; not the joints!


Listen, I’ve spoken with literally thousands of trainers over the years who can vividly recall their last and final beyond failure training session. They grew to hate training and the gym with all their heart, mind, and soul! I think this speaks volumes about its validity in training to get huge muscles. I have been around bodybuilders for almost 30 years and I truly believe many have the dedication to apply themselves. I don’t want others to make the mistake of pumping up their muscles with massive amounts of blood or pushing the muscles beyond belief with low reps/sets and when you’re finished, be no better off muscle wise. With that being said, there are some beyond failure training programs out there that will allow trainees to gain muscle at a nice pace. But, there are usually consequences that follow. Oddly enough, training with beyond failure techniques and having to take a very long lay-off from the gym due to an injury is the best thing that’s happened to some people. Why? They wise up to the fact their body and mind can’t take that kind of abuse for long before eventually having to give up training altogether. These individuals soon realize there’s no value in training methods that aren’t user friendly. It’s no secret that beyond failure training methods will impair the body’s immune defense against infection and this is the very reason the people who follow these types of programs catch colds and viral infections at least twice as often as normal trainees. Your main concern as a bodybuilder should be longevity! Unfortunately, much of what has been written is doing a lot more harm than good. It’s brought forth much confusion and inconsistencies to the bodybuilding community, not to mention some very nasty injuries!

I'll second that. Totally agree.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

when you refer to rest pausing....specifically, what kind of rest pausing is tearing people's tendons...their is several kinds of rest pausing


because i am a very active member of intensemuscle.com.........dc.........and the only exercise I am aware of that has EVER injured some one following dantes advice to the tea, is the flat barbell bench press.....hence why he advises against it, and people ignore him anyway


rep ranges do seem to be a factor with all this, its why certain exercises get higher rep ranges with us...


according to my research at intensemuscle.com, you will find hundreds of elite level bodybuilders, who follow dante's advice to the tea, and their is no injuries i can find excluding the flat barbell bench press in which dante advises against.......its people that ignore dante that get hurt on dc.



Dante is an elite bodybuilder trainer....he is one of the best in the country....He also has been doing this since the early 90's......this program of dantes, has been tweaked and has seen more trial and error than you can possibly know and evolved into what it is now......Trust me, dante is not going to be putting people at risk

IronReload, I never said "Dante" or "Dorian" would intentionally try and get anyone injured.

You may not realize it but you are putting Dante's training style and Dorian's training styles in the same boat. DC says his training is not HIT. Dorian claims his style of training is HIT. Now I have a question for you. Why is it that DC training is not HIT and Dorians sytle of training is HIT since both of them use beyond failure which is considered HIT? I am really confused on this one!

DC training is based on using 1 exercise per body part and I think he believes in using machines. My quess is that Dante beleives that when a muscle fires, it fires as a whole. And the machines are used for safety reasons which I think is very smart on his behalf when training rest-pause style. If I were to ever train rest-pause again it would definetly be with machines or cables.

Dorian believes mutiple exercises are needed to hit the muscle fully. He thinks isolation movements should be rest-paused where as DC does not if I recall correctly. Dorian thinks DC's idea about not needing to train a muscle at different angles is irrational. So, I do not understand how it is you can be for both styles of training seeing they conflict with one another.

Most of the tendon tears I have witnessed were with heavy weights for 5-6 reps then resting for about 10-15 seconds, then squeezing out another 2-3 reps. However, I popped my bicep tendon clean off the bone doing dumbbell curls. I started out doing 10 reps to good failure, waited 15 seconds and squeezed out about 4 more reps, waited another 15 seconds to get another two rep or so and my right bicep tendon ripped clean off the bone about half way during the "negative" part of the first repetition. I heard 3 loud pops and the dumbbell hit the ground. The pain was excruciating and I'll never train beyond failure again.

The surgery was tough because they had to drill a hole in my elbow and re-attach the bicep tendon. Took 6 months before I could train light. I thought I'd never be able to extend my arm fully again but my doc knew what he was doing. I still get a twinge in that left elbow that wasnt there prior to the accident. I was using perfect form, etc. I have never hurt my tendon with straight sets but it can be done. I know because I have seen it as well. But, it's almost always due to improper lifting. I believe I almost done the same thing to my tricep tendon doing skull crushers rest pause because my right elbow tendon started acting up after my bicep tendon surgery. My friends poped his tricep tendon doing around 6 reps, waiting 10 seonds and doing 2-3 more reps to 100% failure.

Even most of the HIT trainees who are dieting down shift toward straight sets to reduce the injury factor. That should be a heads up. I for one learned my lesson and will do my best to keep others out of harms way. I would never intentionally try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. The majority of top level bodybuilders and power-lifters throughout the years have made their very best gains using straight sets. All in all I believe DC is safer than Yates if he is still teaching the use of only compound movements and machines. Using free weight rest-pause style with isolation movements like Dorian used is a disaster waiting to happen!!!!!!!

[IronReload04]

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[IronReload04]

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[sonnygll]

I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.

Sonny, Dorian Yates used High Intensity Training (HIT)-hence putting forth 100% maximum effort into a few incredibly intense sets. When Dorian first started training, he followed an Upper-Lower split for a couple of years. Next, he progressed into more of a typical bodybuilding routine, training roughly 4 days per week- every muscle group only once a week. He was doing drops sets & forced reps by this time using a modified version of Mentzer.

By 1992 Dorian was training 3-4 days a week employing 2 work sets for each major exercise, with drop sets, pre-exhaust, and other beyond failure methods.

It was around 1993 when he decided to use the one set per exercise approach. Hi track record proves his methods are a bad idea for the masses as it caused him burn out and injury.

Dorian had incredible genetics!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLINGSHOT TRAINING GURU
IronReload, I never said "Dante" or "Dorian" would ever intentionally try and get anyone injured.

You may not realize it but you are putting Dante's training style and Dorian's training styles in the same boat. DC says his training is not HIT. Dorian claims his style of training is HIT. Now I have a question for you. Why is it that DC training is not HIT and Dorians sytle of training is HIT since both of them use beyond failure which is considered HIT? I am really confused on this one!

I CANT REMEMBER THE EXACT REASON DANTE GIVES, BUT I KNOW ITS A GOOD ONE...I WILL SEE IF I CAN DIG IT UP. I THINK IT WAS ALONG THE LINES THAT MENZTER CREATED HIT......AND MENZTER WAS OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE ABOUT OVER TRAINING, WHERE DC IS IS REALLY HIGH ON FREQUENCY......MENZTER USED A DIFFERENT STYLE OF REST PAUSING.........DC IS NOT JUST ANOTHER VERSION OF HIT, ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, WHICH IS WHY HE DOESNT LIKE THE COMPARISON

DC training is based on using 1 exercise per body part and I think he believes in using machines. My quess is that Dante beleives that when a muscle fires, it fires as a whole. And the machines are used for safety reasons which I think is very smart on his behalf when training rest-pause style. If I were to ever train rest-pause again it would be definetly be with machines or cables.

DANTE WANTS US USING FREE WEIGHTS WHENEVER POSSIBLE. IT IS PREFERRED FOR MOST GUYS. MACHINES ARE FOR GUYS WHO TRAIN WITHOUT SPOTTERS.....MACHINES ARE ALSO GOOD ALTERNATIVES FOR WHEN EXERCSISES GO STALE......AND THEN LAST BUT NOT LEAST, IN WHICH THIS PROBABLY DOESNT APPLY FOR MOST PEOPLE, BUT YES SAFETY ISSUES.....TAKE JASON WOJO FOR INSTANCE, I BELIEVE HE DOESNT LIKE BARBELLS, THE GUY IS ALSO I BELIEVE ABLE TO FLAT BENCH PRESS 500 FOR REPS, BUT HE DOESNT FOR SAFETY REASONS....THAT ASIDE, FLAT BARBELL BENCH PRESS IS NOT PART OF DC

Dorian believes mutiple exercises are needed to hit the muscle fully. He thinks isoaltion movements should be rest paused where as DC does not if I recall correctly. Dorian thinks DC's idea about not needing to train a muscle at different angles is irrational. So, I do not understand how it is you can be for both styles of training seeing they conflict with one another.

YES, THAT IS ONE TOPIC THAT BOTH VIEWS DISAGREE ON. DANTE BELIEVES THAT IF YOU CAN INCLINE BENCH PRESS 405 FOR REPS PERFECT FORM, YOUR CHEST WILL BE HUGE, AND YOU CANT REALLY GROW PARTS OF A MUSCLE, IT GROWS TOGETHER REGARDLESS OF ANGLE....JUST GAIN STRENGTH, AND THE MASS WILL COME......BESIDES, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT IN 2 WEEKS, EACH MUSCLE GETS 3 DIFFERENT EXERCISES, SO THEIR IS SOME VARIABILITY....WE ALSO DONT DO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS........

I DONT BELIEVE IN DOING ISOLATION MOVES EITHER LIKE DORIAN LIKE TO

Most of the tendon tears I have witnessed were with heavy weights for 5-6 reps then resting for about 10-15 seconds, then squeezing out another 2-3 reps. However, I popped my bicep tendon clean off the bone doing dumbbell curls. I started out doing 10 reps to good failure, waited 15 seconds and squeezed out 4 more reps, waited another 15 seconds to get another rep or two and my right bicep tendon ripped clean off the bone about half way during the "negative" part of the first repetition. I heard 3 loud pops and the dumbbell hit the ground. The pain was excruciating and I'll never train beyond failure again.

The surgery was tough because they had to drill a hole in my elbow and re-attach the bicep tendon. Took 6 months before I could train light. I thought I'd never be able to extend my arm fully again but my doc knew what he was doing. I still get a twinge in that left elbow that wasnt there prior to the accident. I was using perfect form, etc. I have never hurt my tendon with straight sets but it can be done. I know because I have seen it as well. But, it's almost always due to improper lifting. I believe I almost done the same thing to my tricep tendon doing skull crushers rest pause because my right elbow tendon started acting up after my bicep tendon surgery. My friends poped his tricep tendon doing around 6 reps, waiting 10 seonds and doing 2-3 more reps to 100% failure.

Even most of the HIT trainees who are dieting down shift toward straight sets to reduce the injury factor. That should be a heads up. I for one learned my lesson and will do my best to keep others out of harms way. I would never intentionally try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. The majority of top level bodybuilders and power-lifters throughout the years have made their very best gains using straight sets. All in all I believe DC is safer than Yates if he is still teaching the use of only compound movements and machines. Using free weight rest-pause style with isolation movements like Dorian used is a disaster waiting to happen!!!!!!!

YOU MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT REPS DONT MATTER....WE BELIEVE THEY DO......5-6 REPS IS JUST TO LOW FOR DC......WE DO OUR SET, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE...SO INCLINE BENCH FOR EXAMPLE TYPICALLY LOOKS LIKE 10/3/2.....DEPENDING ON AGE, REP RANGES ARE 11-20 REPS REST PAUSED.........SKULL CRUSHERS FOR INSTANCE IS MORE LIKE 20-30 REPS REST PAUSES....RISKY EXERCSISES LIKE THIS, AND BICEPS, GET THE HIGHER REP RANGES ALSO



REGARDING THE VERY FIRST COMMENT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE TEARING A MUSCLE FROM REST PAUSING DC STYLE BY FOLLOWING DANTE'S ADVICE TO THE TEA.....THATS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT....DANTE HAS BEEN PUTTING MUSCLE MASS ON PEOPLE SINCE THE EARLY 90'S.....TRUST ME, IF REST PAUSING FOR 11-15 REPS WAS RISKY, HE WOULD'NT BE ADVISING IT.......HE ADVISES IT, BECAUSE WITH HIS EXPERIENCE, AS LONG AS GUYS AVOID LOW REPS AND BARBELL FLAT BENCH PRESSING, GUYS ARE NOT TEARING ANYTHING



CAPS

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Last edited by IronReload04 : Yesterday at 09:03 PM.

IronReload, I'll respond to your "caps" in red my friend. Great thread here!!!
I CANT REMEMBER THE EXACT REASON DANTE GIVES, BUT I KNOW ITS A GOOD ONE...I WILL SEE IF I CAN DIG IT UP. I THINK IT WAS ALONG THE LINES THAT MENZTER CREATED HIT......AND MENZTER WAS OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE ABOUT OVER TRAINING, WHERE DC IS IS REALLY HIGH ON FREQUENCY......MENZTER USED A DIFFERENT STYLE OF REST PAUSING.........DC IS NOT JUST ANOTHER VERSION OF HIT, ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, WHICH IS WHY HE DOESNT LIKE THE COMPARISON

Any system that believes in training to absolute gut bursting failure or beyond is defined as HIT. Understand here that the 1 set per body part concepts go way back. Ellington Darden and the Mentzer’s brothers were promoting this back in the early 70’s. Author Jones invented the first nautilus machine in 1948 but the mass marketing didn’t occur till 1970. The research data that Jones privately funded was remarkable. Anyway, the purpose of these machines was to take 1 exercise per bodypart to absolute 100% gut busting failure. A total body workout could be done in 30 minutes. Is the 1 set to failure route the safest and most productive way to train ? Absolutely not! But, Jones apparently pioneered the whole HIT concepts in the 40’s that others have built upon.


YES, THAT IS ONE TOPIC THAT BOTH VIEWS DISAGREE ON. DANTE BELIEVES THAT IF YOU CAN INCLINE BENCH PRESS 405 FOR REPS PERFECT FORM, YOUR CHEST WILL BE HUGE, AND YOU CANT REALLY GROW PARTS OF A MUSCLE, IT GROWS TOGETHER REGARDLESS OF ANGLE....JUST GAIN STRENGTH, AND THE MASS WILL COME......BESIDES, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT IN 2 WEEKS, EACH MUSCLE GETS 3 DIFFERENT EXERCISES, SO THEIR IS SOME VARIABILITY....WE ALSO DONT DO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS........

Making a muscle larger has to do with creating fatigue to the muscle itself with overload and adequate amounts of volume. You cannot fully break down all the muscles in the torso and legs doing only 1 exercise per body part. This is why 99.9% of all pro's use multiple angles. They have to use more than 1 exercise inorder to create balance.

Making the muscles stronger through the use of very low reps and low volume has more to do with optimizing CNS output and teaching motor units and muscle fibers to fire in unison in order to create the greatest force possible. You cannot continue lifting heavier weights each time you train in order to grow. Strength gains are not made in that type of linear fashion. There are several strength coaches who are small because they always train with low volume!!!

Powerlifter’s and strongmen competitors have learned the value of preventing "injuries" and "nervous system" destruction by not training past the point of no longer being able to get another good rep. Taking less away from the body allows it to recuperate faster, meaning the overcompensation process (where strength and growth occurs) can conclude sooner and with consistency. Using excessive body english to reach absolute muscular failure (the point you can no longer budge a weight) creates great demand on the tendons, joints, and nervous system.

If you wish to obtain both total bodypart mass and full-blown muscle-belly development, you will have to use a holistic rep-range with both compound and isolation exercises. Here is a good example of thinking too far out of the box and actually going against what works: Since chin-ups are a compound movement for the biceps they must be superior to curls. There are 2 reasons this kind of thinking is wrong. 1) The compound-isolation factor is different for arms than the legs and torso. Obviously, you are not adding any kind of leverage factor. Think about it, what are you compounding on a tricep extension or bicep curl? 2) A chin-up starts the biceps in a slack position because of the relative position of the elbow to the shoulder. It then moves the upper arm to another disadvantaged position because of the peak contracted nature of the chin-up. Because of these two factors myosin-actin pairings are not optimized. A standard curl works the biceps through the strongest highest leveraged contraction, thus making it a superior exercise for the biceps. This same scenario applies to dips and close grip bench press verses lying tricep extensions. Simply stated, curls and extensions (isolation exercise) are the absolute best mass builders for the arms.


I’ve often asked myself, “Why some have the all or nothing attitude about compound verses isolation exercises?” What bodybuilder in their right mind would not want to use compound movements as a baseline and then throw in isolation exercises to target lagging areas? Bodybuilding is all about bringing up lagging body parts and building a balanced physique. If you've got lagging medial deltoids, why stubbornly avoid medial deltoid lateral raises? Most of us must do laterals after training the over-head presses because the compound movement won’t be enough to fully work the medial deltoids. It's not hard to balance the two so you can get the best of both worlds, but some people have a tendency to over think and complicate matters.


YOU MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT REPS DONT MATTER....WE BELIEVE THEY DO......5-6 REPS IS JUST TO LOW FOR DC......WE DO OUR SET, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE...SO INCLINE BENCH FOR EXAMPLE TYPICALLY LOOKS LIKE 10/3/2.....DEPENDING ON AGE, REP RANGES ARE 11-20 REPS REST PAUSED.........SKULL CRUSHERS FOR INSTANCE IS MORE LIKE 20-30 REPS REST PAUSES....RISKY EXERCSISES LIKE THIS, AND BICEPS, GET THE HIGHER REP RANGES ALSO

I do believe that it's more dangerous to rest-pause in the low rep-range than the higher rep-range. But, my tendon gave way using the higher rep-range you just described. I've seen knees blown out doing rest-pause with squats, pec tendon tears with chest exercises (moslty flat bench press but a few inclines) and rotator cuff tears from rest-pausing over head presses. Add forced reps and it only adds fuel to the fire.

The lower rep rest-pause training taught by Menzer will make you stronger than doing rest-pause in the higher rep-ranges. That said, power-lifters do not utilize rest-pause to gain strength because it's not as effective or safe as straight sets. So, I see no value in performing rest-pause for bodybuilding purposes seeing this is the case.


REGARDING THE VERY FIRST COMMENT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE TEARING A MUSCLE FROM REST PAUSING DC STYLE BY FOLLOWING DANTE'S ADVICE TO THE TEA.....THATS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT....DANTE HAS BEEN PUTTING MUSCLE MASS ON PEOPLE SINCE THE EARLY 90'S.....TRUST ME, IF REST PAUSING FOR 11-15 REPS WAS RISKY, HE WOULD'NT BE ADVISING IT.......HE ADVISES IT, BECAUSE WITH HIS EXPERIENCE, AS LONG AS GUYS AVOID LOW REPS AND BARBELL FLAT BENCH PRESSING, GUYS ARE NOT TEARING ANYTHING

I agree with Dante on avoiding rest-pause with the flat press because it places a lot of stress on the pec tendon. Unfortunatley, many of these youth following the DC training system are hung up on the flat bench press and most will probably experience serious shoulder problems down the road. IMO using rest-pause for over-head presses is just about as bad as the flat bench press. And rest-pausing rows, deadlifts or squats is just asking for a lower back injury.

I think the big picture here is learning what it takes to create an effective progressive over-load (lift more weight) without getting injured and then taking those strength gains and proceeding forward to create a true progressive over-load without becoming injured and over-trained. I have learned that straight sets are far superior to any other training method. If you are always trying to produce a progressive over-load (lifting more weight) you will get stuck in no time. In addition, you've just skipped past one of the most important aspects of how to make additional gains -A true progressive over-load (increasing the volume).

[IronReload04]

I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.

2-3 warm ups and one work set

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

later on, I will do a more thouraough response, but i will go with just this for now

"I agree with Dante on avoiding rest-pause with the flat press because it places a lot of stress on the pec tendon. Unfortunatley, many of these youth following the DC training system are hung up on the flat bench press and most will probably experience serious shoulder problems down the road. IMO using rest-pause for over-head presses is just about as bad as the flat bench press. And rest-pausing rows, deadlifts or squats is just asking for a lower back injury.

I think the big picture here is learrning how to create a progressive over-load (lift more weight) without getting injured and then taking those strength gains and proceeding forward to create a true progressive over-load without becoming injured and over-trained. I have learned that straight sets are far superior. If you are always trying to produce a progressive over-load (lifting more weight) you will get stuck in no time. In addition, you've just skipped past one of the most important aspects of how to make additional gains -A true progressive over-load (increasing the volume). "





1. its not that we dont rest pause bench pressing.......we dont flat barbell bench press at all.....(and if people are so hung up on it, that they just absolutely cant find it within themselves not to do it, then its 30 reps rest paused)

2. ya, you are absolutely right about youth being caught up in flat pressing....I myself have come to terms with longevity not to long ago....in fact, Dante has warned specific people a handful of times to avoid the move, they ignore it and tear a pec

3. over head presses get lighter weights and higher reps.....we acknowledge just what you said.....and to boot, it seems that guys actually respond really well to a higher rep range anyway....so 15-20 reps rest paused is generally reccomended for shoulders

4. tell ya the truth, rows, deads, and squats are three exceptions in dc....these moves are not rest paused....they get 2 straight sets....with the second quad move being a 20 rep breathing squat or press

5. something I didnt learn until just recently.....side raises dont work the deltoid at all. they work the I believe its called supraspinatus i think. when doing side raises, the deltoid is not active until the arm gets to roughly parellel with the floor, around their....the deltoid just pulls the humerous into the shoulder socked until the arm gets to a certain angle....roughlu 40 deg.


6. lastly, but thats exactly what dc is.......progressive overload without injury


like i said my man....their are multiple ways to skin a cat, so just pick one and go with it....I dont doubt that what you do works for you and others........it sounds rational and logical........as their are many others



ps...this thread needs to be a sticky lol

Good to read DC has kept safety in mind!!! I believe his style of rest-pause training is more user friendly than Mike Mentzer's.

Lateral raises done right will hit the medial deltoids. Lateral raises done wrong will damage the rotator cuff and do little to build the side deltoids.


Okay you just said DC training and comparable programs will create a progressive over-load. I agree to a certain point. But, where is the TRUE PROGRESSIVE OVER-LOAD? That's what I have been saying all along! It has been proven by years in the gym and by science that a certain amount of volume and repetitions are required to induce maximum muscle mass. Some bodybuilders claim you must constantly use low volume comingled with some form of extreme training (for i.e.; absolute gut bursting failure training, forced reps or rest-pause) to make continued improvements. The problem with such training is that you will hit a wall in no time and have no where else to turn. Think about it, if you’ve been using 400pounds on squats for a long time and never increase the volume, you’re no longer making progress!

Strength gains slow down for everyone as they advance. Elite powerlifters are not as big as elite bodybuilders, so bodybuilders should not become overly obsessed with using more weight each time they train. Every one of you who becomes a very advanced trainee will eventually reach a point where you simply can’t gain anymore strength without the risk of hurting yourself with very low reps (1-3). Remember, the muscles will eventually get stronger than the tendons and ligaments resulting in injury if you try and train as a power-lifter as opposed to a body-bodybuilder. This is normal and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over the fact. Your muscle can’t see how much weight is on the bar nor can they count reps. As long as you keep them off-balance by frequently stressing them with more volume, they will grow bigger regardless of whether you can use more weight or reps. This is because you’ve tricked the body through periodization by introducing a new form of training.


You can use rest pause until you pass out from shear exhaustion and never create a true progressive over-load to the muscles because the CNS will become over-trained before the muscles fibers are fully taxed. You can create a certain degree of progressive over-load with rest pause, but it requires using straight sets to produce a true progressive over-load.

On the other hand, you can use drop-sets until your joints are on fire, yet never create a progressive over-load, because of the light weight loads from excess lactic acid build-up. You can create a certain degree of true progressive over-load with drop sets, but it takes straight sets to produce a maximal progressive over-load.

[moush]

dam gread thread guys!

[Ronnie Rowland]

dam gread thread guys!

moush, the funny thing is, this all started in your "STS Training Journal" where RuhlFreak said 10 sets was not enough volume. I want to know where he is hiding? Did he hit the nearest exit? .....LOL.....

[IronReload04]

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[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

one thing i have to clear up....dc rest pausing is totally different than mikes.....for dc, we to a straight set of about 8-10.....rack it, take 15-20 breaths, bang out more reps until failure and repeat once more


"[B]Okay you just said DC training and comparable programs will create a progressive over-load. I agree to a certain point. But, where is the TRUE PROGRESSIVE OVER-LOAD? That's what I have been saying all along! It has been proven by years in the gym and by science that a certain amount of volume and repetitions are required to induce maximum muscle mass. Some bodybuilders claim you must constantly use low volume comingled with some form of extreme training (for i.e.; absolute gut bursting failure training, forced reps or rest-pause) to make continued improvements. The problem with such training is that you will hit a wall in no time and have no where else to turn. Think about it, if you’ve been using 400pounds on squats for a long time and never increase the volume, you’re no longer making progress!"



the dc system is the most pogressive system i have ever seen.....so now that i explained the rest pause......the log book is the most important part of the dc system.....lets say for incline bench, i get 11/4/2=17 reps rest paused....when next time rolls around, you either add 5-10 pounds and get 17 reps rest paused, or you do the same weight and get 19 reps rest paused......not making progress is not an option.....its do or die, you add weight and tie or beat reps rest paused from previous time, or you use the same weight and get 2 more reps to your total than you got last time........We are constantly exposing our muscles to heavier weight, or the same weight for more reps............you say you cant make progress every single time.......well this is not true with dc......the rest pause is set up, because it creates oppertunity, where beating what you got last time is realistic.......you beat what you got last time 20 times in a row, and you are going to be moving up in weight extremely damn fast.......bigger weights directly or indirectly will lead to larger muscle mass





you say progress cant go on forever......I absolutely agree........We do 2 things to combad plateuing...
a. we hammer out an exercise, we bury it until we cant make any more progress.....if we go 2 weeks in a row without making progress, we drop that exercise and replace it with something else.....and hammer that one out......eventually, we will stall on that one, so here, we replace it with another new exercise, or we can go back to the original one........if we go back to the original one, what will happen is, we will start off slightly weaker than where we left off........but in no time, we are greatly surpassing where we left off, and the cycle repeats

b. yes, failure training is goddamn rough on the cns, leading to overtraining quickly.....thats why we have scheduled off time......we go full blast from 4-12 weeks....on average, only about 6-7 weeks before we take time off.......at a point, gains will start slowing, and we will start to feel a little beat up......"before" this happens, is when we take the time off.....some guys go 2 weeks taking it easy, do easy workouts, go through the motions, drop 20-30 pounds off their weights, and stop 2-3 reps short of failure, and other guys wont touch a weight for 10 days......so time off is pretty frequent......this prevents platueing......like you said, you hit a wall fast.....to combad this, we take time off, and immidiately start gaining once we start back up.....


with these 2 methods, dc trainees are never stalling or plateuing...consantly moving forward






by beathing the logbook every single time, exposing muscles to larger and larger weights over time and on a constant basis, not beating the logbook is just not an option, its a highly higly progressive over load scheme


the whole system is based on making progress every single time




what ends up happening is, 3-4 months down the road, our lifts go up by 20 pounds or so......progressive overload doesnt get any better than taht

IronReload, I would like to commend you for discussing this material in a mature and calm manner. All too often people get their cage rattled during a debate and it turns ugly. Intense Muscle is most fortunate to have you as their spoke person. I'll comment to your quotes in red.

We are constantly exposing our muscles to heavier weight, or the same weight for more reps............you say you cant make progress every single time.......well this is not true with dc......the rest pause is set up, because it creates oppertunity, where beating what you got last time is realistic.......you beat what you got last time 20 times in a row, and you are going to be moving up in weight extremely damn fast.......bigger weights directly or indirectly will lead to larger muscle mass


Okay let's say for arguments sake that you could beat the log book 20 times in a row by creating a "progressive overload". What follows when you reach a stregnth plateau after having followed the DC blast and cruise cyles on a long term basis? You cannot keep gaining strength forever. You know you can't! And there's certainly nothing magical about rest-pause training to gain strength, especially when it's done in the higher rep range. Power-lifting fundamentals with straight sets are superior to any form of rest-pause training for strength gains. The 5x5 program is a prime example. I do not understand the value in doing rest-pause. Dorian Yates quit using beyond failure training because it put a hurting on him.

I am of the opinion it's the design of DOGGCRAPP'S training split that allows trainees to gain strength at a fast pace and it has nothing to do with rest-pause!! Why do I believe this? It's because I experiemented with rest-pause training and various splits in the past. If you take a close look at my 3 day per week STS and compare it to the 3 day per week DC training system, you will soon notice they are almost identical!!!!!!! Later in this thread, I'll post the 3 day per week STS beside the 3 day per week DC in order for you to see the uncanny similarities. What I am trying to say here is Dante came up with a "grand" training split. This helps tremendously in being able to gain more strength. I'm willing to bet you could take the DC training split, replace the rest-pause with straight sets, periodize it properly and not only make more gains in strength, but make more gains is size. Don't believe me? Try it!

How do you create a true progressive over-load by always doing 2 sets per week. I have yet to hear you talk about a true progressive over-load?


a. we hammer out an exercise, we bury it until we cant make any more progress.....if we go 2 weeks in a row without making progress, we drop that exercise and replace it with something else.....and hammer that one out......eventually, we will stall on that one, so here, we replace it with another new exercise, or we can go back to the original one........if we go back to the original one, what will happen is, we will start off slightly weaker than where we left off........but in no time, we are greatly surpassing where we left off, and the cycle repeats


you say progress cant go on forever......I absolutely agree........We do 2 things to combad plateuing...
a. we hammer out an exercise, we bury it until we cant make any more progress.....if we go 2 weeks in a row without making progress, we drop that exercise and replace it with something else.....and hammer that one out......eventually, we will stall on that one, so here, we replace it with another new exercise, or we can go back to the original one........if we go back to the original one, what will happen is, we will start off slightly weaker than where we left off........but in no time, we are greatly surpassing where we left off, and the cycle repeats



Adaptations that take place over time simply mean that the structural adaptations to your training regimen have already been decided. At this point, your body will be adapted to the training you have been using and you can no longer gain strength due to adaptation from doing the same amount of volume over and over again. This has nothing to do with the exercise itself! At the point of adaptation, some bodybuilders think their body has adapted to the exercises-hence their neural pathways are getting burned out. This is bad science. This is I am firm believer in the PRIME-BLAST-CRUISE method (Slingshot Periodization).

Upon first starting a new exercise, your strength can sky rocket due to improved "neural pathways", not because of additional muscle strength or fiber recruitment pattern regeneration. What’s happening is strength gains are being made because you’re switching over to a new exercise. This has to do with increased neural efficiency at performing a new exercise.

Switching over to a new exercise and making rapid strength gains for a brief period of time is not the same thing as making additional strength gains. The thing to remember here is that you ccan also be weaker when you return back to the original exercise because you will have lost your groove. However, if you do make a noticeable amount of progress in strength-size over an extended period of time using the new exercise, expect to come back and be able to exceed the amount of weight load you could lift with the original exercise that was used prior to switching to the new exercise. Again, this forward progress has nothing to do with exercise rotation, but progress itself.

I hope this helps!