Weight vs Form

[xnotoriousx]

I notice that the more strict and slow the movement, the less I can do.

Is it better to work with a heavy weight where I can get a fast controlled 1 second positive and 1 second negative? Or is it better to drop alot of the weight and do a smooth slow contraction like 3 second up and 3 seconds down with a pause at the bottom?


Anyone done both and noticed a big difference in the two?

[kickinit]

I have been hearing alot that a 2 sec neg is the way to go. I personally do 2 up and 3 secs down on most movements, cant get as many but increasing weight as I go in my workout and slow movements I'm getting alot stronger quicker, but at first I was weaker.

[quarry206]

it really relates to the goals that you have, and how your body response to it.. I am really against bad form. but as far as neg time there are general rules people fallow, but it is the one area that you can play with because neg's themselves neither make you stronger or bigger, they only help with how you pump your muscle or how you control the weight to better work your body...

[xnotoriousx]

neg's themselves neither make you stronger or bigger, they only help with how you bump your muscle or how you control the weight to better work your body...

Man i'm pretty sure this is a false statement, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

[kickinit]

Man i'm pretty sure this is a false statement, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

yeah thats false, if I ever want my strength to shoot up for better lifts in ALL muscles negatives can help a great deal.

I like the slow negative on my reps since it helps with control and you are actually lifting or pushing the weight not jerking, or coaxing the weight, your just lifting or pushin it.

I do agree that it depends on an individual on what type of neg you do, but a controlled movement is a MUST!

[xnotoriousx]

Yes I agree. No reason for me to ever let the weight down in less than 2-3 seconds.

Maybe if you were power lifting that would be different

[eatrainrest]

negative or eccentric training will put more emphasis on growth and there is an increase of about 30%... its somehwer ein my manual ill find it one day

[quarry206]

my comment was worded poorly but the concept is true.. negatives themselves will not make you bigger or stronger... they do have a place in a workout as part of a full rep.

my point was don't focus so much on the negative part of the movement as purely worrying about the negative. controlling the weight on its way down (the negative) you always will be stronger by 20-40%.. but the actual growth of the muscle does not come from the resist movement alone.. the only thing negatives in themselves have been linked to is injury and over training..

now that does not mean i don't believe in a slow controlled negative's. I am only saying that If research says that negative's alone do not cause strength or hypertrophy... then why when doing a full rep would you burn yourself out too much on the negative part of the movement..

I said negatives are useful, but you should play with the level of how you use them for your own body. and do not harp on making them the soul part of the movement.

I tried to find them and couldn't DOC_SUS posted lots of articles and information about this a while back.

[amcon]

i control the weight... and will sacrifice form slightly to get the higher weight occasionally... i am def not counting on the up and down movements...

do you guys acctually count?

[j4ever41]

i dont actually count but my negatives are about 2-3 seconds,i like to maintain control of the weight and feel the muscle contract i always get a better workout and pump when i do so not to mention it is easier on my tendons.

[eatrainrest]

i will probably start implementing negatives with the last set per every body part, with a spotter

[xnotoriousx]

I don't count, but I ask my workout buddy to correct me like I will him if he's not somewhere in that range. I've read it's the best way to gain muscle, nice controlled motion the entire way. Slowww down, then squeeze up!!! Try to make the thing 3 down and 2 up, Man i'm ready to do this thing tomorrow!!! Of course on times you go heavy in the six rep range, there's just no way to do this, but I only do that once in a blue moon, no reason to risk injury, especially if there's a better, more safer way to tear the muscle.

[wharton]

my comment was worded poorly but the concept is true.. negatives themselves will not make you bigger or stronger... they do have a place in a workout as part of a full rep.

my point was don't focus so much on the negative part of the movement as purely worrying about the negative. controlling the weight on its way down (the negative) you always will be stronger by 20-40%.. but the actual growth of the muscle does not come from the resist movement alone.. the only thing negatives in themselves have been linked to is injury and over training..

now that does not mean i don't believe in a slow controlled negative's. I am only saying that If research says that negative's alone do not cause strength or hypertrophy... then why when doing a full rep would you burn yourself out too much on the negative part of the movement..

I said negatives are useful, but you should play with the level of how you use them for your own body. and do not harp on making them the soul part of the movement.

I tried to find them and couldn't DOC_SUS posted lots of articles and information about this a while back.

Consentrating on negatives made me break through my bicep platau so it obviously has growth effect and I would and do recomend it to many to add to there workouts. If your trying to say that doing just negatives alone wont get growth, to cover for your last statement being absolute bollocks, your barking up the wrong tree cause noone said anything about that.

[kickinit]

i control the weight... and will sacrifice form slightly to get the higher weight occasionally... i am def not counting on the up and down movements...

do you guys acctually count?

No, but I can guess-a-mate since I'm fully concentrating on the movement and form.

[peachfuzz]

in defense of quarry...http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=negatives

[quarry206]

Consentrating on negatives made me break through my bicep platau so it obviously has growth effect and I would and do recomend it to many to add to there workouts. If your trying to say that doing just negatives alone wont get growth, to cover for your last statement being absolute bollocks, your barking up the wrong tree cause noone said anything about that.

well we can agree to dis agree or whatever... but high level powerlifters don't do negitives, unless its purely to feel the weight and break fear of that weight..

and no professional body builders do them.. though sometimes they will put talk in a magazine to sell an article.. if you watch their actual work outs none of them spend a lot of focus on the negative..

amateur lifters are the only people you will ever see do negatives.

and my post wasn't to "cover" it was to clarify that though negs might help you feel alittle burn.. if doing full reps you should waste tons of energy on the neg movement since the growth is made from the contraction.

and the long used defense "it helped me" has many holes in it. because we have all seen on this site people say the weirdest things helped them and we all know it didn't.. and maybe adding negatives did help you, but it was because it was a change to your routine not the negatives themselves........If we really want to play the personal experience game.. I can list off my size, strength, endurance and other stats.. all done without a spotter, without juice, and not really fallowing a diet. which are all things people claim to be a must have to be at the level I'm at...so like i said from the beginning everybody is different but there are general rules that hold true to everybody on different levels....

[xnotoriousx]

I can respect that.

[quarry206]

in defense of quarry...http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=negatives

thank you for finding this. I knew there were a few post out there ..

and to point out both of the guys Doc_sus and muscle science are educated in the field of sports medicinal or injury (in different ways)

[wharton]

well we can agree to dis agree or whatever... but high level powerlifters don't do negitives, unless its purely to feel the weight and break fear of that weight..

and no professional body builders do them.. though sometimes they will put talk in a magazine to sell an article.. if you watch their actual work outs none of them spend a lot of focus on the negative..

amateur lifters are the only people you will ever see do negatives.

and my post wasn't to "cover" it was to clarify that though negs might help you feel alittle burn.. if doing full reps you should waste tons of energy on the neg movement since the growth is made from the contraction.

and the long used defense "it helped me" has many holes in it. because we have all seen on this site people say the weirdest things helped them and we all know it didn't.. and maybe adding negatives did help you, but it was because it was a change to your routine not the negatives themselves........If we really want to play the personal experience game.. I can list off my size, strength, endurance and other stats.. all done without a spotter, without juice, and not really fallowing a diet. which are all things people claim to be a must have to be at the level I'm at...so like i said from the beginning everybody is different but there are general rules that hold true to everybody on different levels....

True. I agree with the diet stuff and the spotter to. Still negatives work for me and as long as they do i will keep doing them

[kaptainkeezy04]

For a few weeks I like to go slow and controlled lighter weight, and then I throw in a week of balls to the wall just straight loading up plate after plate on the squat rack, just to shock my legs into growth, and during that week I go heavier on every other exercise as well.

[kickinit]

well we can agree to dis agree or whatever... but high level powerlifters don't do negitives, unless its purely to feel the weight and break fear of that weight.. NO ONE THAT I KNOW OF JUST SAID "LETS DO NEGATIVES", DID I MISS THAT SOMEWHERE? IT WAS ONLY STATED ABOUT THE NEGATIVE.

and no professional body builders do them.. though sometimes they will put talk in a magazine to sell an article.. if you watch their actual work outs none of them spend a lot of focus on the negative..---DONT READ THEM SO DONT CARE.

amateur lifters are the only people you will ever see do negatives.--- TRUE I DID IT IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT IT NOW.

and my post wasn't to "cover" it was to clarify that though negs might help you feel alittle burn.. if doing full reps you should waste tons of energy on the neg movement since the growth is made from the contraction.---I DISAGREE GRANTED IF THE NEGATIVE IS SO USELESS THEN DO YOU JUST THROW THE WEIGHTS AROUND? ALSO ANY PRO WILL TELL YOU FULL MOVEMENT, SHIT WATCHT THEM FOR CHRISTSAKES, ALL OF THEM WITH FULL CONTROLLED MOVEMENT.

and the long used defense "it helped me" has many holes in it. because we have all seen on this site people say the weirdest things helped them and we all know it didn't.. and maybe adding negatives did help you, but it was because it was a change to your routine not the negatives themselves........If we really want to play the personal experience game.. I can list off my size, strength, endurance and other stats.. all done without a spotter, without juice, and not really fallowing a diet. which are all things people claim to be a must have to be at the level I'm at...so like i said from the beginning everybody is different but there are general rules that hold true to everybody on different levels....

CAPS ABOVE FOR COMMENTS and to add, still don't know where you got anyone saying lets do just negative movements, did I miss it? This sounds like your whole argument too.

[Reed]

So when MuscleScience says they have there place in training what does that exactly mean. Why do something that does not make you stronger or bigger but will increase chance of injury??


I have done negatives with my biceps primarily and it seemed to benefit. Taking a weight that was too heavy and letting it down for 4 "reps" w/ a dumbbell on a preacher. The blood volume in my muscle after these is incredible, much more so then "normal" reps and exercises.

I did them with incline smith as well in order, in my crazy mind, thinking I could "adjust" to the amount of weight through negatives which I guess I did or did not has I quickly was able to press this weight.

So I'm just wondering where do they have there part in training???

[quarry206]

CAPS ABOVE FOR COMMENTS and to add, still don't know where you got anyone saying lets do just negative movements, did I miss it? This sounds like your whole argument too.

either your not reading everything, or you just like to jump into things for fun.... I never said anything about people only doing negatives, I said over and over that if negatives don't help in growth don't focus heavily on them in a full rep... and i also said that controlling the weight down does help with fatigue on the muscle, but has no direct effect on growth so don't harp on the negative movement...

people are twisting what i said and have comment to work for their argument...when did i EVER say dropping or throwing the weight around is what you should do??? I have always harped on using great form, and that form and bouncing is the biggest mistake people make.

last time.. i never said don't do a controlled negative, I merely stated the facts about negatives so why count or try for a 2-3 second negative when there are better ways to hit the muscle for growth.

[quarry206]

So when MuscleScience says they have there place in training what does that exactly mean. Why do something that does not make you stronger or bigger but will increase chance of injury??


I have done negatives with my biceps primarily and it seemed to benefit. Taking a weight that was too heavy and letting it down for 4 "reps" w/ a dumbbell on a preacher. The blood volume in my muscle after these is incredible, much more so then "normal" reps and exercises.

I did them with incline smith as well in order, in my crazy mind, thinking I could "adjust" to the amount of weight through negatives which I guess I did or did not has I quickly was able to press this weight.

So I'm just wondering where do they have there part in training???

the injuries linked to negatives are in tendons and joints, elbow is a very common injury for people doing negatives on bench and bicep movements.. the purpose of a muscle is to push or pull an outside resistant, tendons and joints are the parts that resist an outside push or pull.. so in turn in the case of a bicep curl, bicep muscles pull the weight up, the prime body component to lower the weight is tendons and joints though yes the muscle does play a part, but only in support.

and the basis of the original post, not what it has turned into is control vs weight and form.. and controlling the weight with a negative movement is not what i think is wrong, what i think is wrong is making your negative movement longer than your contraction, if you are doing that you should either add weight or change your routine.

[beatango2008]

I never see the pros doing the slow reps or using good form for that matter in any of their vids, the only pro that uses really good form is Lee Priest, so whatever works for you. trial and error.

[FireGuy]

I have read several articles stating the eccentric part of the movement is more important than the concentric part of the movement for both size and strength.

See Below-

Greater increases in Strength

When eccentric only training has been compared to concentric only training, several researchers have discovered that eccentric training yields greater increases in strength than concentric.

One study looked at 6 weeks of eccentric vs. concentric training in women. Hortobagyi et.al. (1996). After the training, the concentric group improved strength 36% while the eccentric group had a 42% increase. This difference was significant (P<.05). The authors concluded that training eccentrically yielded greater strength adaptations faster than concentric training in women.

The superiority of eccentric training versus concentric training for developing strength has also been reported by Farthing and Chilibeck (2003), LaStayo et.al. (2003), Seger, et.al. (1998), and Hortobagyi et.al. (1997).

Greater muscle hypertrophy

It is well accepted that the stimulus for muscle growth is microtrauma to the muscle following exercise. The process of lengthening during a contraction increases the amount of microtrauma experienced by the muscle. In turn, this stimulates the muscle to rebuild and add and increase muscle fiber size in order to handle the load. While concentric training can induce some microtrauma, over the same period of time, eccentric training is more effective for promoting muscle growth.

Numerous studies have reported that eccentric training is superior to concentric training for inducing muscle hypertrophy. Farthing JP and Chilibeck PD (2003), Higbie (1996) and LaStayo et.al. (2003)

[peachfuzz]

now im confused

[quarry206]

the study was on strength not muscle size.. and only proved that if you are training for negative impact it is better to do negatives... the actual percentages can not be compared because the study was only trying to find out the best way to build strength on a negative or holding movement.

so the study does not compare the two for what makes you stronger or bigger.. merely compares how to train better for negative impacts .. I.E. what muscle science said in the link posted, people such as ski jumpers, basketball players

Concentric training
increased concentric (36%, P < 0.05), isometric (18%, P < 0.05), and eccentric strength (13%), and

eccentric training
increased eccentric (42%, P < 0.05), isometric (30%, P < 0.05), and concentric (13%) strength. Eccentric training improved eccentric and isometric strength more

I would like to point out that this in some ways proves my point, because every bodies goal is to do a contraction, so if eccentric training only has a 13% effect on contraction. but concentric training has a 36% effect on contraction... and of course eccentric training will help eccentric strength. but who's goal on here is to have a strong negative?

the study only shows that women's quad muscles have more eccentric strength and isometric strength if they train eccentric.... which sums up to say if you want a stronger negative you have to train with negatives. or isometric (which means the muscle holds a weight in one place no lowering or raising)...

since we don't know the base line of the women, all we can say is that women gain strength on negatives for negatives faster.. which proves nothing in the form of long term strength or muscle size. because the study had nothing to do with anything except finding the best way to improve a negative or the ability to hold weight (isometric)...

the studies information:
Biomechanics Laboratory and Physical Therapy Department, East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina 27858
Received 18 October 1995; accepted in final form 6 May 1996

this is my last post, this is going to be a topic people can debate for years and it still comes down to do what you do, and if it works than great...

[kickinit]

quarry206- got any pics up brotha? I'm very curious of your size now.

[FireGuy]

the study was on strength not muscle size.. and only proved that if you are training for negative impact it is better to do negatives... the actual percentages can not be compared because the study was only trying to find out the best way to build strength on a negative or holding movement.

so the study does not compare the two for what makes you stronger or bigger.. merely compares how to train better for negative impacts .. I.E. what muscle science said in the link posted, people such as ski jumpers, basketball players

Concentric training
increased concentric (36%, P < 0.05), isometric (18%, P < 0.05), and eccentric strength (13%), and

eccentric training
increased eccentric (42%, P < 0.05), isometric (30%, P < 0.05), and concentric (13%) strength. Eccentric training improved eccentric and isometric strength more

I would like to point out that this in some ways proves my point, because every bodies goal is to do a contraction, so if eccentric training only has a 13% effect on contraction. but concentric training has a 36% effect on contraction... and of course eccentric training will help eccentric strength. but who's goal on here is to have a strong negative?

the study only shows that women's quad muscles have more eccentric strength and isometric strength if they train eccentric.... which sums up to say if you want a stronger negative you have to train with negatives. or isometric (which means the muscle holds a weight in one place no lowering or raising)...

since we don't know the base line of the women, all we can say is that women gain strength on negatives for negatives faster.. which proves nothing in the form of long term strength or muscle size. because the study had nothing to do with anything except finding the best way to improve a negative or the ability to hold weight (isometric)...

the studies information:
Biomechanics Laboratory and Physical Therapy Department, East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina 27858
Received 18 October 1995; accepted in final form 6 May 1996

this is my last post, this is going to be a topic people can debate for years and it still comes down to do what you do, and if it works than great...

Did you not read the study?

Greater muscle hypertrophy

It is well accepted that the stimulus for muscle growth is microtrauma to the muscle following exercise. The process of lengthening during a contraction increases the amount of microtrauma experienced by the muscle. In turn, this stimulates the muscle to rebuild and add and increase muscle fiber size in order to handle the load. While concentric training can induce some microtrauma, over the same period of time, eccentric training is more effective for promoting muscle growth.

[FireGuy]

There was another study (cant find it) where they had the same person perform concentric movements til failure with one arm/leg and eccentric movements with the opposite arm and leg. The results were overwhelmingly in favor of the eccentric side for both size and strength at the end of the study. Keep in mind same person just opposite limbs. I wish I could find it but having no luck.

[FireGuy]

quarry206- got any pics up brotha? I'm very curious of your size now.

Pics go a long way towards credibility.....

[quarry206]

fireguy1, i'm sorry that it looks like i'm attacking you.. i'm not your a good guy... its just people have about twisted every word i have said.. so i got tired of it... because from the begining all i said was i don't feel you should put alot of effort into the negative movement.. and you will have to agree this is something that studies show both ways.. but one thing that is constant in all studies is alot of effort of negative movement leads to tendon injuries.... that was my only point something i have said in every post on this thread.. is "play with it and find out what works for you"....... i mean really that should say it all.. if i'm only giving opinion, which is backed by other people.. but i still say try what works for you ..... why do people feel the need to rip what i say????

if you look i even put as one of my reasons for editing a post was i didn't want to be rude, because this is a friendly debate.. in my mind...

and did you read the link in this thread.. fireguy you know as well as i do that doc_sus and muscle science are no where near uneducated in the field nor not vets in a gym.


as far as pictures, I don't mind posting them... but i'm a power lifter not a body builder so a picture would do very little to prove or disprove knowledge in the gym... in the 220 class i have benched, squat, and deadlifted all over 500 pounds raw and never touched juice.... and that is something people on this board have seen.

[FireGuy]

fireguy1, i'm sorry that it looks like i'm attacking you.. i'm not your a good guy... its just people have about twisted every word i have said.. so i got tired of it... because from the begining all i said was i don't feel you should put alot of effort into the negative movement.. and you will have to agree this is something that studies show both ways.. but one thing that is constant in all studies is alot of effort of negative movement leads to tendon injuries.... that was my only point something i have said in every post on this thread.. is "play with it and find out what works for you"....... i mean really that should say it all.. if i'm only giving opinion, which is backed by other people.. but i still say try what works for you ..... why do people feel the need to rip what i say????

if you look i even put as one of my reasons for editing a post was i didn't want to be rude, because this is a friendly debate.. in my mind...

and did you read the link in this thread.. fireguy you know as well as i do that doc_sus and muscle science are no where near uneducated in the field nor not vets in a gym.


as far as pictures, I don't mind posting them... but i'm a power lifter not a body builder so a picture would do very little to prove or disprove knowledge in the gym... in the 220 class i have benched, squat, and deadlifted all over 500 pounds raw and never touched juice.... and that is something people on this board have seen.

I have taken no offense to anything you have said. I love a respectful debate. That's how we all learn.

[tbody66]

Negatives work, in scientific experiments and in real life, at helping your muscles get bigger and stronger.

[quarry206]

the back picture and tricep picture is from last summer, I think around july 08'... the front picture was takin when i was home on R&R (April) after running off the 17 pounds i gained over the winter after hurting my ankle and be inactive, I originally broke my ankle while in SF school in 2006...and i usually control my weight from running since i don't really diet..the pic of me holding the trophy is just as a meet they had a month ago in iraq..

I am a power lifter not a body builder.. but you made a call for pics, and since i took part in friendly debate with you, i'll come through on the request..

Stats
5'8''
210-220 I go up and down in that range
Bench-505 (touch and go) 495 (paused)
Deadlift- 575
Squat- 535
2-mile run-14:27
2 min situps- 81
1-min push-up-78 ( you don't get points for over max, so i get up in one min not two)
dead hang pull ups-21
all of these is something i have done within the last two months...

but since i'm probably higher BF than most of you body builders you have to take into account my size might be alittle more and not "pure" muscle..
bicep-17.75
calf- 17.75
those are the only two i know right now

[peachfuzz]

nice lifts man

[AmbushKing]

the back picture and tricep picture is from last summer, I think around july 08'... the front picture was takin when i was home on R&R (April) after running off the 17 pounds i gained over the winter after hurting my ankle and be inactive, I originally broke my ankle while in SF school in 2006...and i usually control my weight from running since i don't really diet..the pic of me holding the trophy is just as a meet they had a month ago in iraq..

I am a power lifter not a body builder.. but you made a call for pics, and since i took part in friendly debate with you, i'll come through on the request..

Stats
5'8''
210-220 I go up and down in that range
Bench-505 (touch and go) 495 (paused)
Deadlift- 575
Squat- 535
2-mile run-14:27
2 min situps- 81
1-min push-up-78 ( you don't get points for over max, so i get up in one min not two)
dead hang pull ups-21
all of these is something i have done within the last two months...

but since i'm probably higher BF than most of you body builders you have to take into account my size might be alittle more and not "pure" muscle..
bicep-17.75
calf- 17.75
those are the only two i know right now

Nice numbers man.

Back to the OP. IMOP i would always go with form.

[kickinit]

the back picture and tricep picture is from last summer, I think around july 08'... the front picture was takin when i was home on R&R (April) after running off the 17 pounds i gained over the winter after hurting my ankle and be inactive, I originally broke my ankle while in SF school in 2006...and i usually control my weight from running since i don't really diet..the pic of me holding the trophy is just as a meet they had a month ago in iraq..

I am a power lifter not a body builder.. but you made a call for pics, and since i took part in friendly debate with you, i'll come through on the request..

Stats
5'8''
210-220 I go up and down in that range
Bench-505 (touch and go) 495 (paused)
Deadlift- 575
Squat- 535
2-mile run-14:27
2 min situps- 81
1-min push-up-78 ( you don't get points for over max, so i get up in one min not two)
dead hang pull ups-21
all of these is something i have done within the last two months...

but since i'm probably higher BF than most of you body builders you have to take into account my size might be alittle more and not "pure" muscle..
bicep-17.75
calf- 17.75
those are the only two i know right now

Good lifts and good size man....

I'm still very much with my previous statement, a slow and controlled movement of approx 2-3 secs on negs can shotgun muscle response and strength and size. Most if not ALL powerlifters I ever see do a very slow NEG and then hard press. No way you can do for example a 1 sec neg and still get a legit press ESPECIALLY without bouncing the weight(cheating yourself of full movement). Serious man give it a try and see how she goes, my strength and size are jumping big time and I have been out for 5 yrs since my car accident.

Also since you said your 2-mile times I take it your in the army huh? Stay safe over there brotha.

[quarry206]

Good lifts and good size man....

I'm still very much with my previous statement, a slow and controlled movement of approx 2-3 secs on negs can shotgun muscle response and strength and size. Most if not ALL powerlifters I ever see do a very slow NEG and then hard press. No way you can do for example a 1 sec neg and still get a legit press ESPECIALLY without bouncing the weight(cheating yourself of full movement). Serious man give it a try and see how she goes, my strength and size are jumping big time and I have been out for 5 yrs since my car accident.

Also since you said your 2-mile times I take it your in the army huh? Stay safe over there brotha.

well about the negatives i think the best thing is just agree to disagree... maybe i'm jaded because of the facts i was first given... as we can all agree there are studies both ways on the topic...

but i am fully fully with you about controlled movement and no bouncing.. that is actually a pet pev of mine when i see somebody turning bicep curls into a back workout.. or bouncing a barbell off their chest three inches..