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Thread: Enough about Overtraining

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    Enough about Overtraining

    You read Flex or any other bodybuilding magazine you might get the idea that over training is one of the greatest dangers of the sport, and a huge obstacle to growth. Am I the only one who considers this one of the greatest frauds in the sport today? Certainly for a beginning to intermediate bodybuilder such advice might be the kiss of death to any realistic chance to be huge and cut.

    Studies show that full muscle recovery in athletes occurs after 48 to 72 hours. For a steroid taking athlete certainly recovery times are towards the quick end of this spectrum. Yet somehow in the past decade and a half most people have been fed the idea that training a muscle group once a week is optimal- a full 168 hours of rest between using a muscle. It seems to me that more waiting does NOT mean more recovery. Full recovery is full recovery. Your muscles grow as they recover, not after they recover.

    Arnold trained each muscle group three times a week with 48 hours rest. Ronnie Coleman trains each muscle group twice a week, so 72 to 96 hours rest. But a 168 hours rest, where the heck did that come from?

    It came from a combination of the rise of Dorian Yates, who claimed to train each muscle just once a week, and more importantly, the wishes of a culture of laziness that constantly whispers in your ear "Slow down, take it easy. All that effort's not necessary". We live in times of obesity, of excuses such as "I'd love to train, but I've got a bum knee, so I can't work out ". It's a fat world, and it wants you to join them, so "slow down and don't over train". Training six times a week of course in our present cultural climate means that you are a "fanatic" and "over-training". You'll grow better just sitting on the couch, right?

    It's unfortunate that many bbers accept the idea that over-training is some kind common pitfall. Which is more common, overtrained athletes or the kind of shapeless blobs who wander around your gym with Wieder belts straining to hold back their guts? Many of these guys happily latched on to the once-a-week-to-avoid-overtraining marlarkey because it fit into their general slothfulness. Yes, he's fat and ugly but he thinks he's Dorian Yates because he's training each muscle once a week.

    Yes, frequent training hurts. Yes, it hurts more than training a muscle group just once a week. But pain is tolerable and necessary for growth. My personal experience is that particularly when on a cycle, solid muscle growth is much more common on 72 to 96 hours rest.

    Bodybuilding is not about moderation, it's about excess. Want moderation? Learn golf. Read up on Arnold's training regimen for confirmation that excess and intensity are two words for the same thing.

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    Different bodytypes do respond differently to training durations/ frequencies. I couldnt gain anything until i dropped my workouts to 3 days/week. Although ive never really done a true BB split

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    i like your statement my friend. makes perfect sense.

    some poeple make an excuse just to train less i think personally e.g. i dont wanna over train.

    atm im cutting doing GBC program most body parts 3 times a week. working wonders too.

    when i go to lean bulk will be training muscle groups two times a week.

  4. #4
    There's more to life than just being the biggest you can be. When you're dead at 37 like Swolecat, you can bet your enlarged heart all that training didn't do shit but put you in an early grave.

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    I dont agree and there is so much wrong with your post it hard to know where to start,

    Ive grown more by doing less but more intense. No matter what you breakdown you need to repair it by resting, ok steroids will speed recovery of the muscles but from continuous stress from lifting its not only your muscles what need to repair your central nervous system needs to repair to. Many bodybuilders need to take a week off now and again to heal and repair not only the muscles,joints but your CNS, i normally take a break every 6 weeks because my body just cant stand the battering it takes, not everyone is the same and you need to look at the bigger picture and more so your C.N.S

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    I don't quite agree with that post.
    High intensity training for a maximum growth stimulation will give you just that. Without overtraining you will be able to recover quick. If you overtrain then you will need more time to recover. Giving any number of hours required for a full recovery is pointless because there is no recovery time optimum that would fit all of the people. Overtraining to me means going past the maximum growth stimulation, which I believe will result in a longer recovery period. There is more that needs to recover than just your muscles.
    No magic, just human physiology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Claude View Post
    There's more to life than just being the biggest you can be. When you're dead at 37 like Swolecat, you can bet your enlarged heart all that training didn't do shit but put you in an early grave.
    You, my friend, stumbled upon a bodybuilding board by mistake.

    WWW.underwaterbasketweaving.com
    Last edited by LBSOMEIRON; 10-04-2010 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UberSteroids View Post
    I don't quite agree with that post.
    High intensity training for a maximum growth stimulation will give you just that. Without overtraining you will be able to recover quick. If you overtrain then you will need more time to recover. Giving any number of hours required for a full recovery is pointless because there is no recovery time optimum that would fit all of the people. Overtraining to me means going past the maximum growth stimulation, which I believe will result in a longer recovery period. There is more that needs to recover than just your muscles.
    No magic, just human physiology.
    No one asked either one of you to agree. I'm telling you what's worked for me and what I see in the gym.

    I am so far against the Yates/Mentzer style training you have no idea. Unless you are a genetic freak, it's just a way for people to do less and feel like they've done more.

    I've made more gains in the past 3 years pounding away than most will every make. Not a ego trip, just reality (or at least the people in my gym)

    AND...who said anything about a week off??? I take a weak off after every single show and it's the best week of my life. Why? Because I've been busting my balls, set after set, for the last 4-6 months....

    To each his own....My point and my view is the bs 1 day a week/ 1 max set - 30 minute training is an excuse for the fat to get fatter and claim powerlifting goals. Puhleeze. Only the strong survive

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    Hmmm... Arnold was considered a freak and Mentzer was considered a freak? If so, they were both freaks yet opposed each other thraining methods to a certain extent.

    Well, I guess I will post some pictures after my cycle and cut down to see if I am a Mentzer-type of a freak Since I am doing HIT right now and I got to say it works great.

    Take care man.

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    Hey, I'm not slamming Mentzer, you are Marcus. I don't play that game. If you guys can get away with it, more power to you.

    ALl I am saying is for ME and for anyone I might reccomend a routine for, Mentzer/Yates style isn't an option.

    Just my personal views.

    AND YES, for 3 months I did try the Mentzer type training to an extent. I did not due the 10-14 rest like he claims, but I did reduce my time and sets.....results - I got a little stronger, but I felt like my actual mass (muscles size) decreased.

    In the game of bodybuilding, it doesn't matter if you can bench 225 or 525 - so long as you LOOK like you can bench the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UberSteroids View Post
    Hmmm... Arnold was considered a freak and Mentzer was considered a freak? If so, they were both freaks yet opposed each other thraining methods to a certain extent.

    Well, I guess I will post some pictures after my cycle and cut down to see if I am a Mentzer-type of a freak Since I am doing HIT right now and I got to say it works great.

    Take care man.
    Good point. How's your history? 1980 Olympia mean anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON View Post
    Good point. How's your history? 1980 Olympia mean anything?
    My history? It is alright, even though I am relatively young.

    All I know is that Metzer was the one that didn't "sell out" as the rest did. It is an extensive topic and I won't get into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UberSteroids View Post
    My history? It is alright, even though I am relatively young.

    All I know is that Metzer was the one that didn't "sell out" as the rest did. It is an extensive topic and I won't get into it.
    A true fan....I like your style. Truthfully, I got nothing against Mentzer. He built a great physique. We just have different training philosophies. Of course, he's winning right now. I got time

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    Quote Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON View Post
    No one asked either one of you to agree. I'm telling you what's worked for me and what I see in the gym.

    I am so far against the Yates/Mentzer style training you have no idea. Unless you are a genetic freak, it's just a way for people to do less and feel like they've done more.

    I've made more gains in the past 3 years pounding away than most will every make. Not a ego trip, just reality (or at least the people in my gym)

    AND...who said anything about a week off??? I take a weak off after every single show and it's the best week of my life. Why? Because I've been busting my balls, set after set, for the last 4-6 months....

    To each his own....My point and my view is the bs 1 day a week/ 1 max set - 30 minute training is an excuse for the fat to get fatter and claim powerlifting goals. Puhleeze. Only the strong survive
    i really disagree with your statements, ppl are different, if i trained body parts more than once a week i'd be a big injured mess. i was a comp plifter for 15yrs, and none of the guys i trained with hit body parts more than once a week, maybe every 5days peaking for a meet but that was it. you will eventually hit a wall mate. overtraining IS very real, ive felt it many times. what age are you?
    Last edited by dec11; 10-04-2010 at 02:42 PM.

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    Been bodybuilding since 18 brah. But I'm all natural and I don't compete. But I at least got some sense in me.

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    Yes it's true larger muscle groups will recover in 72 smaller groups in 48. However like marcus pointed out it's your CNS and neuromuscular coordination that suffers.
    That being said no one said it is impossible to NOT overtrain if you train a muscle more than once a week. Many factors will play into this, intensity, volume, frequency, diet, mental status, level of GPP ect.......


    xxxl83

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    I agree with you on pretty much everything you say, but you clearly have good genetics and you also take a ton of gear. Newbs and other people can't take what you can. That being said, my legs do better on twice a week (which I rarely ever do) and the rest of my body falls apart on twice a week. Even within yourself different training styles work differently

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    Quote Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON View Post
    A true fan....I like your style. Truthfully, I got nothing against Mentzer. He built a great physique. We just have different training philosophies. Of course, he's winning right now. I got time
    A true fan and a believer The man always made a perfect sense to me, especially that I am a science guy myself, I can really understand what he was preaching.
    After all, he never said he came up with a new way of training, he simply said that there is only one valid principle to muscle growth for all exercises, and that is the High Intensity Training for maximum growth stimulation and the proper recovery periods.
    Anyway, good luck with the progress and see you around!
    Last edited by UberSteroids; 10-04-2010 at 03:21 PM.

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    Why do I feel like I am getting beat up here?

    It's merely the way I was brought up through the ranks and what has worked best for me. Period.

    I am NOT on a huge amount of gear, trust me. I'm on a very very mild HRT schedule coupled with another mild dose of gh (4iu).

    I may run 2-3 cycles per year, but they too are very mild compared to many.

    The fact is I know my body and that's the key. What works for me won't work for Joe. What works for Joe won't work for Steve. You get my point.

    I said it before and will say it again, I'm not against any method of training. TO each his own. Marcus strongly disagreed with me and that's completely fine. My principles don't work for him and maybe that's due to genetics. I have the ability to recover faster and TRUST that it's not because my training is lighter. I train with all the big movements as heavy as I can. Of course I do not do singles, double or triples anymore - because I do not need to. I still train with an intensity that most can't fair against. I get sore. I take time off. But I NEVER walk through the motions.

    Again, to each his own....I wish everyone the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON View Post
    Why do I feel like I am getting beat up here?

    It's merely the way I was brought up through the ranks and what has worked best for me. Period.

    I am NOT on a huge amount of gear, trust me. I'm on a very very mild HRT schedule coupled with another mild dose of gh (4iu).

    I may run 2-3 cycles per year, but they too are very mild compared to many.

    The fact is I know my body and that's the key. What works for me won't work for Joe. What works for Joe won't work for Steve. You get my point.

    I said it before and will say it again, I'm not against any method of training. TO each his own. Marcus strongly disagreed with me and that's completely fine. My principles don't work for him and maybe that's due to genetics. I have the ability to recover faster and TRUST that it's not because my training is lighter. I train with all the big movements as heavy as I can. Of course I do not do singles, double or triples anymore - because I do not need to. I still train with an intensity that most can't fair against. I get sore. I take time off. But I NEVER walk through the motions.

    Again, to each his own....I wish everyone the best.
    not at all, but you cant call bs on other training schedules and make out that those ppl are 'lazy'. in my exp very little ppl can train like what your describing and not burn out

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    I hate to chime in when I dont have a strong opinion one way or the other but I can truly appreciate both points of view. I do believe the ability to recover varies immensely from person to person. There are also a ton of factors that also come in to play- Sleep, Nutrition, Cardio, Stress outside the gym, Time vs intensity of workouts, and age just to name a few. I have been bodybuilding for over 22 years and different schedules worked better for me at different times. Currently (and for the last 5 years) I am a one bodypart per week guy. That said, I gained a majority of my muscle the first 10 years doing conventional 3 on 1 off programs.

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    Everyone is different. If training minimal sets and 3 days a week is bs. How come SEVERAL people blow up on DC Training? I'm just trying to show you both sides here.

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    you can do it after a long time of training, but i only recomend doing one super heavy day and one light day.. I was under the impression that is how arnold trained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ******;5379***
    Everyone is different. If training minimal sets and 3 days a week is bs. How come SEVERAL people blow up on DC Training? I'm just trying to show you both sides here.
    Several compared to how many? A few hundred thousand? How come'several' people can blow up to 230ish and sub 10% eating Wendy's 3x a day and training once or twice a week? In the Olympia lineup, how many do you REALLY train DC style? One? maybe? Better yet, how many at the last North American show I did? One? My point is this: Different strokes for different folks. PERSONALLY, I can't get away with it. It does nothing for me. I have no issues with CORRECTLY training like Yates or Mentzer, but SOME feel it's a recipe to do 1-2 baby sets and then rest for 10 days. NOT ALL...some.

    Just an opinion bro and I'm only calling it as I see it from one part of the United States. I'm confident the dudes that have chimed in on this thread train balls out and props to you...

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    yes....I agree with you

    I get my best result from training everything twice a week.......I don't go heavy but I keep my rest at 30-60 sec exept quads....in first week, people get Think overtrain ONLY because they are not to used to train that way...

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    bottom line, everyone needs to find what works best for them. none of our bodies work the same.

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    To go back to the original topic.... OVERTRAINING....

    I dont believe you can overtrain IF, your eating enough. And getting enough rest.

    Eating enough will give your muscles the things they need to grow and repair themselves.

    Sleeping enough will give your CNS time to heal.

    If those things are up to par... train away

    If they arent... then its more likely youll wear yourself out aka overtraining.

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    I think your taking the whole point of over training out of context here..

    When i see a young kid spending two solid hours in the gym training biceps then i don't care who you are, that is overtraining...

    I also disagree with you when you say cutting your training down to one body part per week or 45 mins in the gym is an excuse for being lazy. Most people i know including myself hate leaving the gym after 45min or only training one body part per week. Hell id love to spend hours and hours in the gym every day 7 days a week training each body part every day. But in all honesty ive found that i respond better by doing less but with more intensity...

    Btw show me one person on this board that only trains one body part per week, it just doesn't happen, its not possible if you think about it.....
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    [QUOTE=007;5380448]I think your taking the whole point of over training out of context here..

    When i see a young kid spending two solid hours in the gym training biceps then i don't care who you are, that is overtraining...

    I also disagree with you when you say cutting your training down to one body part per week or 45 mins in the gym is an excuse for being lazy. Most people i know including myself hate leaving the gym after 45min or only training one body part per week. Hell id love to spend hours and hours in the gym every day 7 days a week training each body part every day. But in all honesty ive found that i respond better by doing less but with more intensity...

    Btw show me one person on this board that only trains one body part per week, it just doesn't happen, its not possible if you think about it.....[/QUOTE]

    Speaking of taking something out of context....c'mon.

    This will be my last post simply because I can't say it any other way.

    I actually like the lazy guys better.....gym is a lot less crowded.

    My theory won't work for everyone, but it'll work for many.
    Last edited by LBSOMEIRON; 10-05-2010 at 09:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by almard View Post
    yes....I agree with you

    I get my best result from training everything twice a week.......I don't go heavy but I keep my rest at 30-60 sec exept quads....in first week, people get Think overtrain ONLY because they are not to used to train that way...
    Here's my other beef. ANYONE that can bench, squat, row and deadlift on 30-60sec rest CANNOT be training hard/heavy enough. It's impossible.

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    I'm not a bodybuilder I'm a powerlifter/strongman. And we have this same conversation on the strength athlete forums I'm a part of. Oly lifters will squat and squat heavy 3 times a week. Many consider that overtraining. Most strongmen will only train 2-3 times in the gym and 1 day of events. Powerlifters will usually do one heavy and one light workout every other week. Overtraining in strength sports is more of a CNS issue than a muscle fatigue issue. You gotta find out what works for you.

    Current World's Strongest Man, Zydrunas Savickas, only works out 2-3 times a week and that includes doing strongman events. While as former WSM, Mariusz Pudzianowski had a 5-6 day a week plan. So both schools of thoughts work.

    For those who don't know, Mariusz is more popular because of his physique and he's the only man to win WSM 5 times. Zydrunas is actually a more accomplished strongman, with 5 Arnold Classic Wins, 2 IFSA World Championships, 2 Worlds Strongest Man Contests, and 1 Fortissimus title. He also has several powerlifting championships and several world records, but not known as much because he looks like a cabbage patch kid, lol!!
    Last edited by BgMc31; 10-05-2010 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON View Post
    Several compared to how many? A few hundred thousand? How come'several' people can blow up to 230ish and sub 10% eating Wendy's 3x a day and training once or twice a week? In the Olympia lineup, how many do you REALLY train DC style? One? maybe? Better yet, how many at the last North American show I did? One? My point is this: Different strokes for different folks. PERSONALLY, I can't get away with it. It does nothing for me. I have no issues with CORRECTLY training like Yates or Mentzer, but SOME feel it's a recipe to do 1-2 baby sets and then rest for 10 days. NOT ALL...some.

    Just an opinion bro and I'm only calling it as I see it from one part of the United States. I'm confident the dudes that have chimed in on this thread train balls out and props to you...
    I see where you are coming from and as said before, differerent strokes for different folks. However, the whole eat Wendy's thing every day is a little off the wall. Whatever tpye of training you've done in the previous years is obviously working great for you. More power to ya
    Last edited by Gaspari1255; 10-05-2010 at 11:42 AM.

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