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Thread: Everything You Need to Know About Cardio

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    Post Everything You Need to Know About Cardio

    Everything You Need to Know About Cardio
    By Twist

    There are a couple of ways go about a fat loss program. The first, and most commonly used, is the "calories-in calories-out" approach. This means that you want your body to consume/burn/use (whatever lingo you prefer) more calories than you take in. For those who like equations that means KCal in<Kcal out. This will result in fat loss because your body is forced to burn more than you are supplying; so it (your body) turns to its reserves (fat stores) for energy. I prefer this approach over other manipulations because it is the natural way to lose fat. The body is meant to act in this exact way and that is why there are no long-term negative effects (like rapid weight gain) from this approach.

    Other ways of losing fat include Keto diets, AM Cardio, fasting, and other depletions that leave your body extremely low in one nutrient, but very high in another. This is, in my opinion, a very damaging way to go about dieting and fat loss. The majority of my opinion comes from studies on famine and such and when there is a major decline in something essential, there is usually a high rebound after. So a fast drop in fat loss due to no carbohydrate intake results in a huge, if not higher, fat gain as soon as carbs are reintroduced. The calorie-in calorie-out method still applies, but there are tricks to amplifying the calories you do burn so that they are from fat. The problem is that sometimes this backfires. You can trick the body for only a short period of time before it catches on, payback is unforgiving here. Bottom line: If you eat more than you burn = fat gain.

    Cardio, in terms of fat loss, can be looked at in the same way. You can either try to go the calorie-in calorie-out way, or go the fast loss and fast rebound way. For example, slow and steady on the bike for a long period of time (calorie-in calorie-out), or 5 minutes of sprints with little rest in between (fast loss). There is no right way to do it, and they both have their advantages. In order to educate you on why I do cardio the way I do, I need to inform you about another concept.

    EPOC
    EPOC = Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption. This refers to elevated oxygen uptake after exercise is finished. Although many of the theories about this EPOC theory, commonly called after-burn, have been disproved, much of it still stands. To sum it up, Oxygen is is used to restore the body to its comfortable levels of regulation (homeostasis). When you exercise fat stores are broken down for fuel, and when you stop exercising these fat stores are converted from energy (free fatty acids) back to fat stores. This re-conversion takes energy and therefore, oxygen (hence the term fat oxidation, or fat burning), thus burning more calories. The last thing you need to know about EPOC is that its effects, although minimal after five hours, can be found up to 38 hours after exercise. I must mention that low intensity exercise produces much less of an EPOC than high intensity exercise. In fact, low intensity exercise produces very little EPOC at all. So now you know about EPOC and what it refers to so we can move on.

    Now the question you are probably asking is, "if we get EPOC from high intensity exercise, then why don't we just do high intensity exercise all the time?" This is a great question with a not so simple answer. High Intensity (or HI) exercise is hard to perform... Very hard. How long can you all out sprint? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? Maybe a whole minute (doubt it)? Either way you are burning a ton of calories for that minute, but there's only so much your body can do in one minute. So let's say you are running along and this is a mid to high level of intensity. You could do maybe 10 minutes of running? Let's say you do 20 minutes of running and then you stop because you have just ran 3 miles and you're exhausted. In this 20 minutes, you may have burned calories at an elevated rate, but because you can only do it for 20 minutes then you're not going long enough to burn a great quantity of calories. If you were to go at a more comfortable pace then you might be able to stick it out for an hour. In this case you would burn much more than that 10-20 minute burst you just did. Most people stop doing cardio at a low intensity not because they are exhausted, but because they are bored to death. WIth LI, longer is better.

    Now another problem with short-burst, high intensity exercise is that it takes (from what I remember) about 20 minutes to stop burning through glycogen stores and start tapping into fat stores. So as you can see, a short-burst, high intensity exercise will burn calories at an elevated rate, and create EPOC, but is not effective if done for less than 20 minutes, and is unsustainable for over 20 minutes.

    Although low intensity cardio (LI) is sustainable for long periods of time, it's not going to create a large EPOC, and let's face it, LI is boring as hell. Bodybuilders and people at low bodyfat should use this type of cardio if they're trying to get the last pounds off without stripping away muscle. HI cardio is much more likely to strip the body of muscle because it's difficult for your body to stop the burning process (whether it be muscle or fat) even if you stop the cardio due to EPOC. Therefore, if you are low in bodyfat and want to get from 10-7% bodyfat, it is wise to do LI cardio because there will be no unnecessary calorie burning and a quick sugar drink will stop the fat burning process in its spot.

    It is worth mentioning to those of you that are always talking about losing fat and not dropping muscle mass, that if you have a ton of fat then it isn't a valued resource. Bodyfat is necessary for survival, so is muscle. If you have a ridiculous amount of bodyfat and a low muscle mass, then the body will not drop muscle instead of fat. However, if you are at or near your natural limit and have a low bodyfat, then your body will view fat as a necessary resource and will break down muscle for energy demands instead. I would like to point out that bodyfat is what the body uses as a fuel source when other sources are not around. Muscle is used in an emergency; or if it gets to be unnatural. So don't worry about dropping muscle unless you are 15% or below in bodyfat AND have a lot of muscle.

    One more thing before we put it all together; when you do weight training, and you exert your maximal effort - like you should every time you train, you are doing a high intensity exercise and therefore will have a large EPOC. Get it? Weight training = High Intensity. How do you check to see if you are doing HI cardio? If your heart rate is at 85% of your maximal heart rate, then it is considered high intensity.

    Empty Stomach Cardio
    This is one of those times that you are trying to manipulate the body to burn more fat and the calorie-in calorie-out method is not the focus. If, for some reason, you are not able to do High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), than AM cardio is the way to go. Reasons would include injuries, range of motion problems, and general lack of ability/conditioning. Note that being lazy is not one of the reasons to stick to morning cardio. This is one of those ways in which you can manipulate your cardio schedule so that you optimize the calories from fat that are burned. The theory behind AM Cardio is that you have spent all night sleeping, and therefore fasting. After a fast (time period in which no food is consumed) your body has very low glycogen (blood sugar) stores. When your body has low glycogen stores then it must run on its other energy source; fat. Remember that 20 minute cardio time I mentioned earlier? Well this method sort of bypasses it.
    HIIT at this time in the morning is fine, but I would only do it for 30 minutes and then switch to low intensity cardio for the duration. If you are in the group that cannot perform HI cardio, then morning cardio is a must for you. Morning cardio is done by simply waking up in the morning and getting on the treadmill without eating or drinking anything but water. Sometimes Branched Chain Amino Acids are used because they are believed to stop muscle wasting. I won't go into the details of this but basically if you want to preserve your muscle, some BCAA or protein powder (no carbs or fat allowed in this shake) is fine to consume before, during, or after cardio. Once you have finished cardio simply go about the rest of your day as usual.
    NOTE: AM cardio has the same principles as post workout (PWO) cardio. Drain blood sugars, do cardio = more calories from fat burned (as far as a percentage).

    HIIT
    If I am going to recommend you do High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), I should explain what it is. HIIT is when you go at a low intensity (65% of your Maximum Heart Rate) for the majority of the session, with High Intensity (85% or more of your MHR) for very short bursts. The trick is that these short bursts are your MAXIMUM effort. I see too many people speed up their cardio and think that this is HI Cardio. HI Cardio is meant to push your boundaries. One very important aspect of HIIT is that your heart rate must recover for it to be considered LI cardio. After about 3-5 intervals, your heart rate will not recover as quickly and your LI interval will have to get increase. The most common mistake people make is doing 1 minute HI, followed by 1-2 minutes LI. After 2-3 HI bursts your heart doesn't recover to low intensity. This means you are just staying in the high intensity level the whole time. I will write you an example of a typical HIIT training session so you can see exactly what I am talking about.
    5 minute warmup
    30 second all out sprint, maximal effort!!!!!!
    3 minutes LI cardio
    30 second sprint again (HI)
    3 minutes LI
    30 seconds HI
    5 minutes LI
    30 seconds HI
    5 minutes LI
    Cycle repeats 5 minutes LI to 30 seconds HI until 60 minutes is up.
    For morning cardio or for PWO cardio I generally recommend to do the first 30-40 minutes HIIT style, and the rest of the hour LI to preserve muscle. This is more of a precautionary method but it helps ease my clients' minds about losing muscle, and it helps them stay on the equipment.

    Heart Rate Explained
    Your Maximum Heart Rate (MHR) is your heart rate operating at 100%. No details you need to know about it. Your HR can go higher but that's not the point of this article.
    MHR = 220 (arbitrary number) - Your Age
    Example: 220 - 23 (my age) = 197 (my MHR)
    HI = 85% = MHR x .85
    Example: 197 x .85 = 167
    So 167 or higher is my HIGH INTENSITY number. Got it so far?
    LI = 65% = MHR x .65
    Example: 197 x .65 = 128
    So my LI number is 128.
    When you are sprinting during a HI Interval, your heart rate should be at or above 85%. LI should be at or around 65%. Simple as that. Get your numbers, write them down, change difficulty accordingly.

    What Machines to Use
    Not all machines are created equal. The reason some machines are easier than others is just that, because they are easier. Do not skip out and use the elliptical when you are physically capable of using the Stepmill or the treadmill. At the very least start the cardio on the Stepmill or treadmill at an incline; move to the elliptical (if you must) after 30-40 minutes. I know many will say, "but my heart rate goes up on the elliptical just fine." True, but I can sit on a bench and hyperventilate till my heart rate is through the roof. Does this mean I'm burning calories like I'm sprinting? NO! As a general rule, if there is a machine, exercise, routine, or bodypart that you generally don't like to work, it is probably what you should be doing. I hate leg day. Guess what my worst bodypart is? Bingo! Simple stuff here. Use easy machines = do less work = burn less calories = lose less fat = build less muscle.


    Now to put it all together...
    Cardio should be done either on an empty stomach or pwo. But anytime you can do cardio is a good time. Your muscles need energy to lift weights, and weight training drains blood sugar. This makes cardio training after a weight training session optimal. Your muscles get the glycogen they need for the weight session, and you can burn the fat after the weights. The best way to do cardio is HIIT style. This way you will get the most from the "fat burning zone" (LI zone), and the EPOC from the HI zone. Morning cardio is a good idea, but not a must. Do not change your diet or anything around for cardio-only sessions; just go about your daily activities and meal plans as scheduled. Of course, morning cardio is done on an empty stomach but you can eat after. We know that not all machines are created equal. If you pick the lazy machine, you get the lazy results. Cardio is the fat burning miracle you have all been waiting for. Now you know exactly why it is important, how you should do it, and when you should do it. The only thing left to say is...
    GO DO IT!

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    Good post. I have one quick question for you. I have been doing cardio in the morning on essentially an empty stomach. I take some BCAAs and have two cups of coffee beforehand. I do however include a small splash of low fat milk in my coffee. Do you think that this small amount of carbs/fat will be that much of a detriment to my goal of fat loss? I would think that I would burn through the carbs from the milk in 5 minutes or so. However, if it will make a significant difference if I leave the milk out I will start doing that.

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    Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjax03;5497***
    Good post. I have one quick question for you. I have been doing cardio in the morning on essentially an empty stomach. I take some BCAAs and have two cups of coffee beforehand. I do however include a small splash of low fat milk in my coffee. Do you think that this small amount of carbs/fat will be that much of a detriment to my goal of fat loss? I would think that I would burn through the carbs from the milk in 5 minutes or so. However, if it will make a significant difference if I leave the milk out I will start doing that.
    I really don't think that anything from the splash of milk will make that much of a difference. If that's you in your avy then you are fine. I would consider cycling the caffeine though. 3-4 days per week with caffeine max. Just my opinion. I need to do an article on caffeine soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigershark View Post
    Good post.
    Thanks.

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    thanks for posting this twist just what i needed to get remotivated with the cardio.... HIT here i come after i have 1st gone to dw and got a monitor lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    I really don't think that anything from the splash of milk will make that much of a difference. If that's you in your avy then you are fine. I would consider cycling the caffeine though. 3-4 days per week with caffeine max. Just my opinion. I need to do an article on caffeine soon


    Thanks.
    Looking forward to your article on caffeine. Does cycling caffeine have something to do with cortisol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjax03 View Post
    Looking forward to your article on caffeine. Does cycling caffeine have something to do with cortisol?
    I actually know very little on the effects of caffeine on the body (that's why I haven't written the article). I do know that my clients lose weight when I make them cut out the stimulants. This includes caffeine and all other stimulants. I have heard that stimulants slow down your metabolism and it really makes perfect sense to me. Your body will adapt to anything you throw at it and if you throw caffeine at it you will trick it at first, then your body will catch on and adapt by slowing down internal processes until you were back to normal; this results in the need to increase your dose of caffeine. Then when your body doesn't have caffeine your metabolic rate is slowed down which causes fat gain. This is pure speculation on my part though...

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    Thanks great post TWIST,
    I have a question, I want to do cardio at least 5 times a week and am putting in a big effort this year to train legs. I almost find it impossible to do cardio after a legs workout and don't like to do cardio the day after as i am worried about the effect on growth. Will doing cardio the day after leg day have an effect on leg growth and recovery? I am doing legs about every 4 days sometimes 5. Thanks in advance.

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    I would assume that training any muscle (cardio or weights) after it has already been worked is going to impact the muscle in a negative way. However, if you are the type that needs cardio (overweight), then I don't think your leg growth will suffer enough to rationalize not doing cardio for two or three days in a row. I would say yes, but do it anyway.

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    I would never personally reccomend doing a glycogen dependent type of training (HIIT) while glycogen is depleted

    Other than that its a great read IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    I would never personally reccomend doing a glycogen dependent type of training (HIIT) while glycogen is depleted

    Other than that its a great read IMO
    Yeah Base I would agree but one night of sleep won't fully deplete your glycogen stores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    Yeah Base I would agree but one night of sleep won't fully deplete your glycogen stores.
    Of corse not

    Guus just need to be a little carefull with fasted HIIT IMO

    I think its excellent on the day after a refeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    Of corse not

    Guus just need to be a little carefull with fasted HIIT IMO

    I think its excellent on the day after a refeed
    I agree. I think if someone is at or below 15% body fat then HIIT fasted is a bad idea.

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    great post brother!

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    Quote Originally Posted by POPS View Post
    great post brother!
    Thanks man

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    Thanks for the post , very helpful, and congruent with my current goals. Also answered my question of why the first 5 pounds is the easiest to lose, and then gain back.

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    Txh for the post very helpfull .. quick question . . What are your experience with juice and cardio? ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesPlease View Post
    Txh for the post very helpfull .. quick question . . What are your experience with juice and cardio? ?
    When you are on a cycle you can pretty much go overboard with the cardio with very little(if any)fear of losing muscle. My last cycle was a cut cycle and the results were amazing. Diet was at maintenance with a ton of cardio 6 days a week. Dropped about 5% worth of bodyfat in 2 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigslick7878 View Post
    When you are on a cycle you can pretty much go overboard with the cardio with very little(if any)fear of losing muscle. My last cycle was a cut cycle and the results were amazing. Diet was at maintenance with a ton of cardio 6 days a week. Dropped about 5% worth of bodyfat in 2 months.
    Pretty much sums it up. You will hold muscle easier on gear. I wouldn't go too overboard though because I think, barring competitive bodybuilding, a cycle is pointless if you don't gain muscle.

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    Thanks for the post. Really great stuff Twist

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    What about the old myth of a "bulls heart" if u do to much cardio on juice ? is it just all BS ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesPlease View Post
    What about the old myth of a "bulls heart" if u do to much cardio on juice ? is it just all BS ?
    I don't know what this myth is as I have never heard it (and am too lazy to google it), but I bet it is talking about heart enlargement. This can happen with or without steroids but I would assume steroids increase the chances. IDk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    I don't know what this myth is as I have never heard it (and am too lazy to google it), but I bet it is talking about heart enlargement. This can happen with or without steroids but I would assume steroids increase the chances. IDk
    Yes they do increase the chance of heart enlargement, primarily left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). However it is unclear whether this condition should be viewed as pathological as only a small percentage of people with LVH experience any problems due to it.

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    My buddy has it and he has never used gear. I'm sure a lot of people have it and just don't know it.

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    I hear all this hype about heart enlargement but why is that a bad thing

    A larger heat must just mean a bigger stronger muscle to pump bloodaround ur system

    Kind of like putting a 6.0 L engine in a 3.0 L car.....

    Actually no, that sounds like a death trap. Maybe heart enlargment is the same LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    I hear all this hype about heart enlargement but why is that a bad thing

    A larger heat must just mean a bigger stronger muscle to pump bloodaround ur system

    Kind of like putting a 6.0 L engine in a 3.0 L car.....

    Actually no, that sounds like a death trap. Maybe heart enlargment is the same LOL
    I don't really know about the matter exactly, but I think they just call it enlarged heart. I believe what actually happens is the heart gets smaller because the walls get thicker. I'm tempted to look it up but way too lazy right now lol

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    just read this again kiked my ass into gear off for a run i go!! i normally do 10 min tredmill 10 min rower 10 min cross trainer 10 min bike at heart rate 85%... whats you opinion on this? been adviced to slow it down to 70% and after reading a article that told me at this rate i burn more protein i have consumed than fat i agree to do that. think iv come to a holt and stoped loosing weight.. think iv put a little on aswell :s what bf% are you in your pic?

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    I recommend what I wrote above.
    "5 minute warmup
    30 second all out sprint, maximal effort!!!!!!
    3 minutes LI cardio
    30 second sprint again (HI)
    3 minutes LI
    30 seconds HI
    5 minutes LI
    30 seconds HI
    5 minutes LI
    Cycle repeats 5 minutes LI to 30 seconds HI until 60 minutes is up.
    For morning cardio or for PWO cardio I generally recommend to do the first 30-40 minutes HIIT style, and the rest of the hour LI to preserve muscle. This is more of a precautionary method but it helps ease my clients' minds about losing muscle, and it helps them stay on the equipment. "

    As for 85% cardio
    You don't burn more protein but to make it simple let's just say you don't burn more fat as a % of total calories burned. However epoc is greater and food you eat goes more towards replenishing than to gaining.

    I am about 8% I would guess.

    Remember that if you usually do 40 minutes of HI cardio, then you drop down to LI cardio for 40 minutes, your body is used to HI so LI will be easy and you won't see much in terms of fat loss. This would be a good time to implement Empty Stomach Cardio, HIIT cardio, and PWO cardio.

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    Cheers m8y.. My first hit cardio went awsome..loved it burnt allmost exactly amound of carbs And was more fun mixing the speed up.. Allso only used two machine tred and rower. Next step trying to cut butter and no mayo with tuna butties. Going to be triky.

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    very helpful thanx

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    NP guys

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    twist nice thread great write up sticky it

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    Quote Originally Posted by chi View Post
    twist nice thread great write up sticky it
    thanks bro!

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    Brilliant Advice,
    I was 105 KG back in Oct 2010 just weighed in at 87.5 KG. Lowest i have been in years and all due to cardio and Twist's Help and Advice

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    Twist – I don’t want to start any kind of problems here. In general your post is pretty solid, but you may want to reconsider you stance on EPOC and HIIT. HIITs benefits come from increased transcription factors of b-had, citrate synthase and other aerobic enzymes which are theorized to help reduce the workload on the anaerobic side (the better you are aerobically the less you depend on anaerobic).

    And here are some graphs to help support HIIT and the way it benefits us - Look at the RERs post training intervention (lower means a higher percentage of fat is being used for fuel).




    Here is why I say you may want to reconsider your stance on EPOC:

    "the earlier research optimism regarding an important role for the EPOC in weight loss is generally unfounded. This is further reinforced by acknowledging that the exercise stimuli required to promote a prolonged EPOC are unlikely to be tolerated by non-athletic individuals. The role of exercise in the maintenance of body mass is therefore predominantly mediated via the cumulative effect of the energy expenditure during the actual exercise”1.

    1.Laforgia, et al. Effects of exercise intensity and duration on the excess post exercise oxygen consumption. Journal of sports sciences, 2006

    A few other studies that may be of interest to you will be listed below.

    Boutcher, S. High intensity intermittent exercise and fat loss. Journal of obesity, 2011.
    Brooks et al. Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the crossover concept. Journal of applied physiology, 1994.
    Achten, et al. Determination of the exercise intensity that elicits maximal fat oxidation. Medicine and science in sport and exercise, 2002
    Warren, et al. Post exercise fat oxidation: effect of exercise duration, intensity and modality. International journal of sport nutrition and exercise metabolism, 2009

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    And not to keep on you on, but your information about the machines is very misleading. HR = Intensity* = How hard it is = Kcal used. HR increasing represents the body trying to provide increased amounts of O2 to the working muscles once stroke volume has been maximized (25-30L/min (cardiac output) - none of us are Alaskan sled dogs). If one needs more O2 it is because one is trying to increase aerobic glycolysis to provide more ATP (energy). The elliptical is easier to accelerate, but this causes a great deal of momentum, it requires a lot declaration of the lower and upper limbs more so than other modalities.

    *unless the person is on beta blockers, ACEi or other drugs that limit cardiac function (peripheral or central)
    Last edited by pebble; 02-24-2011 at 08:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    I hear all this hype about heart enlargement but why is that a bad thing

    A larger heat must just mean a bigger stronger muscle to pump bloodaround ur system

    Kind of like putting a 6.0 L engine in a 3.0 L car.....

    Actually no, that sounds like a death trap. Maybe heart enlargment is the same LOL
    They are referring to changes to the myocardium that present with heart failure. We have two main types of heart enlargement: Concentric - Hypertrophy of the wall thickness, and Eccentric - Hypertrophy of the wall in a series manner causing a dilated heart. Both cases are bad. Concentric leads to a small chamber therefore not much blood can be ejected each contraction because there is not much blood to eject, and eccentric is like a floppy balloon that cannot contract hard enough to remove enough of the blood in the chamber.

    Heart enlargement from exercise is traditionally hypertrophy on outside of the left ventricle and ventrical dilation due to increased blood volumes (from increased venous return). On the outside is good because it allows for a harder, fuller contraction that allows you to eject more blood per contraction.

    If you have any more questions about this you can just PM me. Sorry to get off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pebble View Post
    Twist – I don’t want to start any kind of problems here. In general your post is pretty solid, but you may want to reconsider you stance on EPOC and HIIT. HIITs benefits come from increased transcription factors of b-had, citrate synthase and other aerobic enzymes which are theorized to help reduce the workload on the anaerobic side (the better you are aerobically the less you depend on anaerobic).

    And here are some graphs to help support HIIT and the way it benefits us - Look at the RERs post training intervention (lower means a higher percentage of fat is being used for fuel).




    Here is why I say you may want to reconsider your stance on EPOC:

    "the earlier research optimism regarding an important role for the EPOC in weight loss is generally unfounded. This is further reinforced by acknowledging that the exercise stimuli required to promote a prolonged EPOC are unlikely to be tolerated by non-athletic individuals. The role of exercise in the maintenance of body mass is therefore predominantly mediated via the cumulative effect of the energy expenditure during the actual exercise”1.

    1.Laforgia, et al. Effects of exercise intensity and duration on the excess post exercise oxygen consumption. Journal of sports sciences, 2006

    A few other studies that may be of interest to you will be listed below.

    Boutcher, S. High intensity intermittent exercise and fat loss. Journal of obesity, 2011.
    Brooks et al. Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the crossover concept. Journal of applied physiology, 1994.
    Achten, et al. Determination of the exercise intensity that elicits maximal fat oxidation. Medicine and science in sport and exercise, 2002
    Warren, et al. Post exercise fat oxidation: effect of exercise duration, intensity and modality. International journal of sport nutrition and exercise metabolism, 2009
    Hey I'm glad you have some input on this. Yes I am well aware that the traditional EPOC is somewhat outdated and I actually prefer the old term of "afterburn." What you are referring to is the fact that Epoc, while clearly present, will only burn a minimal amount of calories PWO when compared to the calories burned while doing the exercise itself. You are also saying that there are other aspects of HIIT that play a more significant role. In this regard, I agree. I would say that if you are sitting on the couch, it is a great advantage to burn more calories than less. I have read of EPOC constituting up to 20% of calories burned, and if you are I are thinking of the same study I believe it was 14%. So I would say that 14% is a pretty significant amount of calories to be burning while doing nothing. This also has to be combined with the thermic effect that eating will have on the body. Because there is a glucose debt and the lasting effects of exercise on the body, the likelihood that these calories will be stored is minimal. So exercise has this lasting effect on the body which is actually minimally characterized by EPOC, but there are many other factors which account for the benefits of HIIT training. I was trying to write a very short piece on EPOC because that's not what this article is meant to do. I want newbs to get the idea of what to do and if I confuse the shit out of them with terms they will not get the big picture. It's better to just get the message across as simply put as possible.


    Your comment about experienced lifters relates to, I believe, the study in which the participants maintained an elevated metabolics rate for days PWO (2 I think?). Because some other studies have not gotten the same effect the conclusion was drawn that these lifters were more experienced and that others can't expect those results. I would say that whatever the benefit, big or small, EPOC or Afterburn or elevated metabolic rate PWO or whatever you want to call it will contribute to a great physique and is better to have on your side. Not to mention the other beneficial effects of HI training.

    I keep my stance on EPOC and if you see my recommendations on cardio I combine long duration with High intensity. therefore you get the best of both worlds. Most studies choose either HI for a short period of time, or long intensity for a long period of time. If I had to choose between the two, for the average person, I would choose longer duration at a lower intensity. However you can have both quite easily.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebble View Post
    And not to keep on you on, but your information about the machines is very misleading. HR = Intensity* = How hard it is = Kcal used. HR increasing represents the body trying to provide increased amounts of O2 to the working muscles once stroke volume has been maximized (25-30L/min (cardiac output) - none of us are Alaskan sled dogs). If one needs more O2 it is because one is trying to increase aerobic glycolysis to provide more ATP (energy). The elliptical is easier to accelerate, but this causes a great deal of momentum, it requires a lot declaration of the lower and upper limbs more so than other modalities.

    *unless the person is on beta blockers, ACEi or other drugs that limit cardiac function (peripheral or central)
    I don't have time right now to discuss this but I would say that if you are arguing that elliptical is better you are off base IMO. It's better for impact on joints in the body, and if you treat it as an exercise like rowing then it can be good, however it is too easy to be lazy on it. Results are clear when clients are forced to work instead of supported with machines making them "comfortable."

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    Hey I'm glad you have some input on this. Yes I am well aware that the traditional EPOC is somewhat outdated and I actually prefer the old term of "afterburn." What you are referring to is the fact that Epoc, while clearly present, will only burn a minimal amount of calories PWO when compared to the calories burned while doing the exercise itself. You are also saying that there are other aspects of HIIT that play a more significant role. In this regard, I agree. I would say that if you are sitting on the couch, it is a great advantage to burn more calories than less. I have read of EPOC constituting up to 20% of calories burned, and if you are I are thinking of the same study I believe it was 14%. So I would say that 14% is a pretty significant amount of calories to be burning while doing nothing. This also has to be combined with the thermic effect that eating will have on the body. Because there is a glucose debt and the lasting effects of exercise on the body, the likelihood that these calories will be stored is minimal. So exercise has this lasting effect on the body which is actually minimally characterized by EPOC, but there are many other factors which account for the benefits of HIIT training. I was trying to write a very short piece on EPOC because that's not what this article is meant to do. I want newbs to get the idea of what to do and if I confuse the shit out of them with terms they will not get the big picture. It's better to just get the message across as simply put as possible.


    Your comment about experienced lifters relates to, I believe, the study in which the participants maintained an elevated metabolics rate for days PWO (2 I think?). Because some other studies have not gotten the same effect the conclusion was drawn that these lifters were more experienced and that others can't expect those results. I would say that whatever the benefit, big or small, EPOC or Afterburn or elevated metabolic rate PWO or whatever you want to call it will contribute to a great physique and is better to have on your side. Not to mention the other beneficial effects of HI training.

    I keep my stance on EPOC and if you see my recommendations on cardio I combine long duration with High intensity. therefore you get the best of both worlds. Most studies choose either HI for a short period of time, or long intensity for a long period of time. If I had to choose between the two, for the average person, I would choose longer duration at a lower intensity. However you can have both quite easily.
    I did and do agree that mix is best to keep the body progressing.

    And I am pretty sure we have read the same material. I am not sure if it is the same study or another but it shows that exercising at 60% of VO2max creates an EPOC of 7% which means the difference between HI and LI is really only 7% which over even a 1000 kcal workout (very unlikely if it is of the intensity required (most use Wingate’s) to get the 14%) that’s only 70 kcal more from EPOC. Not really much when it comes down to it, but yes every kcal does count when trying to get very lean.

    As for the comment about modalities, I think we both agree on the major components and understand what the other is trying to say. I think the semantics and intentions (of the original post) provoked the opposing views.

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