strength before size

[PowerliftWill]

hey guys been doing some thinking on how important strength is before training for size and it kinda got me on the subject of the BB's who were powerlifters before they started bodybuilding. Basically, is it really important to establish a good amount of strength before you even contemplate doing bodybuilding? I see so many kids in the gym and even guys my age that are so weak doing bodybuilding exercises yet because theyre lifting bitch weight, they never really get much bigger. Im decently strong for my size but I always wonder how much I may be limiting my genetic potential by not getting as strong as possible before I transition into a bodybuilding type lifestyle.

Some info from guys out there who have done both or do both would be nice.

[Bigd89]

I would build the strength and size with powerlifting, then use the pretty exercises for sculpting.

Edit: So yea, do you want to look strong but not be that strong, or look strong and be strong.

[PowerliftWill]

I would build the strength and size with powerlifting, then use the pretty exercises for sculpting.

Edit: So yea, do you want to look strong but not be that strong, or look strong and be strong.

From what I've been researching about certain bodybuilders, that's exactly what they do. I want to look strong and have that BB look, but there's something empty about being huge but weak. I rather powerlift and gain that strength so it carries over into BBing. Anyone else out there who has significant experience with both?

[PowerliftWill]

Here's an article I found:

Originally Written by the Iron Addict

Size Vs. Strength
This is about strength Vs. pure size type routines, where they fit in, and what realistic goals are to be considered an advanced trainee by genetically typical, and usually drug free standards.

Most guys just don’t have great genetics relative to adding size and strength to their frame. Knowing that, the key is to make the best of what you have. And for most guys that consists of being extremely focused, and extremely realistic. And the reality is, most guys can build a fair strength/size base if they train and diet correctly. I will use Stuart McRoberts goals/guidelines to define that strength level:

For Joe average of 5'9 190-205 in a fairly lean state, Joe has a 300 lb bench give or take a few lbs, and can do rep work with 250 +. We want to see Joe Squatting at least 400-450 for a single, or doing rep work with 350 +. Joe should also be able to do deads with about the same weights as his squat, or maybe a little higher. Stuart simply stated 300/400/500 for bench, squat, and deadlift.

Most guys can get there (at least within 50 lbs over or under dependant on body mechanics for each lift) if they TRULY dedicate themselves to bread and butter training and heavy eating. MOST guys never come close, but could if they didn't overtrain and under-eat.

The reason most (some fail purely because of diet) never get this so very important strength base is they always train doing too many lifts, using many techniques that are more specific to size instead of strength. Pure hypertrophy training is well and good IF it works for you, but it's time and place is AFTER you have dedicated yourself to building the foundation. I recently had a couple of personal training clients that were disappointed that the routine I wrote was not geared for towards "size" gains. They wanted less rest between lifts and more sets so they could focus on getting bigger. The problem was both these guys were beginner level weak (after training for years). In fact, 5 out of the 8 girls I currently train have a bigger squat and dead than these guys do. I don't care how many fast "pump" sets you do with girl weights. The truth is, you will still look like a girl if that is all the weight you use.

It doesn’t take long for most people to realize that they will never total Elite in powerlifting, nor do any serious damage on the posing dais. Genetics is the first and last word about how far you can go. You may never be freaky strong, or freaky huge. But with the correct focus, here is what will happen. After you have paid your dues with the big lifts for heavy weights and heavy eating, you will be stronger than about 90-95% of the guys in the gym. And a good percentage of you will have the size to go along with it. But.......some of you will not be as big as you "should be” for your strength. Guess what??? Now its time to start trying some of the protocols that tend to build size at the expense of strength. But also guess how much more effective that type of training is what you are not lifting girl weights!!!

The right way to get there for most people is to COMMIT to spending a couple of years (or more) worried about little more than the little more than adding weight on the bar from workout to workout. For many people, this is all they need to do to get huge. But SOME guys get a lot stronger without a linear increase in size. Often much of what occurs from a strength standpoint occurs primarily through innervation gains. This does little for size. But with patience, when the bar is a lot heavier, you will be too. Unless you are doing VERY LOW reps it is pretty difficult to add 75-125 lbs to your bench or dips, and 150-250 lbs to your squat and deadlift, and big numbers to all your other lifts without getting quite a bit bigger.

Now let me insert three VERY critical ideas here.

The first is MANY people think they are hardgainers, or naturally weak because they train and eat like shit. Train somewhat like many powerlifters (but with slightly higher reps) do for a few months and eat like a horse and you may find this is all irrelevant because you may find you build strength and size rapidly when not doing some of the crazy shit many bodybuilders do.

The second thing is that you realize it doesn't happen overnight, and if you are not progressing at a rate you think acceptable you need to do something few do in these days and times. You keep at your task and apply lots of thought, deductive reasoning, and learn everything you can about what you are attempting to do. And that doesn't mean from glossy coated muscle mags that are really supplement catalogs in disguise. Try Hardgainer magazine, Powerlifting USA (and yes, there is a lot in PL USA geared towards guys with great genetics, but it’s better than almost all the BB mags), and online sources that specifically STATE THE INFO IS GEARED TOWARD THE AVERAGE TRAINEE, NOT GENETIC WONDERS. And then FAITHFULLY apply what you know day in day out. This isn't stamp collecting we’re doing here. Its tough, and it takes balls to train and eat right consistently.

The Third thing is to accept the best of what you have and are capable of. Some people will never hit 300/400/500, and some will plow through them FAST once training right. If you are one of the extreme, extreme ecto's, or an endo that just isn't wired for strength, and you have truly paid your dues, and just don't have it. Do everything you can to get as strong as you can, then, a little stronger. THEN, and only then consider yourself "advanced" and change your focus to a hypertrophy routine SUITABLE FOR PEOPLE WITH AVERAGE GENETICS! This, for many people is simply a routine using higher reps, a few more lifts, with more sets than HIT/Hardgainer style training, but much less than volume training. Using an intensity level higher than volume, lower than hit.

Once you are MOST of the way there it is fine to experiment a little with some hypertrophy specific techniques, but continually trying these types of training too soon will usually just be a counterproductive waste of time. Some people find doing a small cycles of mid-level volume work interspersed with power style techniques provides additional growth without overtraining them. This is an option for those with slightly better than average recovery ability. I will go into more detail about the format in another article, but most people reading this should be focused about getting stronger for a while longer.

[RelaxBro]

Here's an article I found:

Originally Written by the Iron Addict

Size Vs. Strength
This is about strength Vs. pure size type routines, where they fit in, and what realistic goals are to be considered an advanced trainee by genetically typical, and usually drug free standards.

Most guys just don’t have great genetics relative to adding size and strength to their frame. Knowing that, the key is to make the best of what you have. And for most guys that consists of being extremely focused, and extremely realistic. And the reality is, most guys can build a fair strength/size base if they train and diet correctly. I will use Stuart McRoberts goals/guidelines to define that strength level:

For Joe average of 5'9 190-205 in a fairly lean state, Joe has a 300 lb bench give or take a few lbs, and can do rep work with 250 +. We want to see Joe Squatting at least 400-450 for a single, or doing rep work with 350 +. Joe should also be able to do deads with about the same weights as his squat, or maybe a little higher. Stuart simply stated 300/400/500 for bench, squat, and deadlift.

Most guys can get there (at least within 50 lbs over or under dependant on body mechanics for each lift) if they TRULY dedicate themselves to bread and butter training and heavy eating. MOST guys never come close, but could if they didn't overtrain and under-eat.

The reason most (some fail purely because of diet) never get this so very important strength base is they always train doing too many lifts, using many techniques that are more specific to size instead of strength. Pure hypertrophy training is well and good IF it works for you, but it's time and place is AFTER you have dedicated yourself to building the foundation. I recently had a couple of personal training clients that were disappointed that the routine I wrote was not geared for towards "size" gains. They wanted less rest between lifts and more sets so they could focus on getting bigger. The problem was both these guys were beginner level weak (after training for years). In fact, 5 out of the 8 girls I currently train have a bigger squat and dead than these guys do. I don't care how many fast "pump" sets you do with girl weights. The truth is, you will still look like a girl if that is all the weight you use.

It doesn’t take long for most people to realize that they will never total Elite in powerlifting, nor do any serious damage on the posing dais. Genetics is the first and last word about how far you can go. You may never be freaky strong, or freaky huge. But with the correct focus, here is what will happen. After you have paid your dues with the big lifts for heavy weights and heavy eating, you will be stronger than about 90-95% of the guys in the gym. And a good percentage of you will have the size to go along with it. But.......some of you will not be as big as you "should be” for your strength. Guess what??? Now its time to start trying some of the protocols that tend to build size at the expense of strength. But also guess how much more effective that type of training is what you are not lifting girl weights!!!

The right way to get there for most people is to COMMIT to spending a couple of years (or more) worried about little more than the little more than adding weight on the bar from workout to workout. For many people, this is all they need to do to get huge. But SOME guys get a lot stronger without a linear increase in size. Often much of what occurs from a strength standpoint occurs primarily through innervation gains. This does little for size. But with patience, when the bar is a lot heavier, you will be too. Unless you are doing VERY LOW reps it is pretty difficult to add 75-125 lbs to your bench or dips, and 150-250 lbs to your squat and deadlift, and big numbers to all your other lifts without getting quite a bit bigger.

Now let me insert three VERY critical ideas here.

The first is MANY people think they are hardgainers, or naturally weak because they train and eat like shit. Train somewhat like many powerlifters (but with slightly higher reps) do for a few months and eat like a horse and you may find this is all irrelevant because you may find you build strength and size rapidly when not doing some of the crazy shit many bodybuilders do.

The second thing is that you realize it doesn't happen overnight, and if you are not progressing at a rate you think acceptable you need to do something few do in these days and times. You keep at your task and apply lots of thought, deductive reasoning, and learn everything you can about what you are attempting to do. And that doesn't mean from glossy coated muscle mags that are really supplement catalogs in disguise. Try Hardgainer magazine, Powerlifting USA (and yes, there is a lot in PL USA geared towards guys with great genetics, but it’s better than almost all the BB mags), and online sources that specifically STATE THE INFO IS GEARED TOWARD THE AVERAGE TRAINEE, NOT GENETIC WONDERS. And then FAITHFULLY apply what you know day in day out. This isn't stamp collecting we’re doing here. Its tough, and it takes balls to train and eat right consistently.

The Third thing is to accept the best of what you have and are capable of. Some people will never hit 300/400/500, and some will plow through them FAST once training right. If you are one of the extreme, extreme ecto's, or an endo that just isn't wired for strength, and you have truly paid your dues, and just don't have it. Do everything you can to get as strong as you can, then, a little stronger. THEN, and only then consider yourself "advanced" and change your focus to a hypertrophy routine SUITABLE FOR PEOPLE WITH AVERAGE GENETICS! This, for many people is simply a routine using higher reps, a few more lifts, with more sets than HIT/Hardgainer style training, but much less than volume training. Using an intensity level higher than volume, lower than hit.

Once you are MOST of the way there it is fine to experiment a little with some hypertrophy specific techniques, but continually trying these types of training too soon will usually just be a counterproductive waste of time. Some people find doing a small cycles of mid-level volume work interspersed with power style techniques provides additional growth without overtraining them. This is an option for those with slightly better than average recovery ability. I will go into more detail about the format in another article, but most people reading this should be focused about getting stronger for a while longer.

Very good read . Thanks for posting .

[PowerliftWill]

Very good read . Thanks for posting .

No problem...I found this and couldn't help but to post it. I think a lot of people forget how important being strong is.

[Uncle$]

Agreed entirely! I spent many years doing a bb'ing routine with little to no results. As soon as I switched to a 5x5 with only bench or mil press, squats or deads, and pullups... Let me tell you I've never been so pleased! Both strength and size are going up at a good rate, way better than any other way I've ever trained!

[PowerliftWill]

Agreed entirely! I spent many years doing a bb'ing routine with little to no results. As soon as I switched to a 5x5 with only bench or mil press, squats or deads, and pullups... Let me tell you I've never been so pleased! Both strength and size are going up at a good rate, way better than any other way I've ever trained!

Exactly, people just assume bodybuilders aren't that strong, yet the notable ones happened to powerlift before they became bodybuilders (arnold, franco, ronnie, etc). I tell my friends who are just now getting into lifting they need to build up a strength base before size can even be gained.

Don't get me wrong I love looking strong, but im much stronger than I look. Which is always a plus when defending myself (helps i have a decent background in mma too).

Not to mention it's so funny to see guys in the gym who have like 20-30lbs on me lifting sooooooooo much less than me its embarrassing for them im sure.

[BoxerTricks07]

I`ve been doing 5x5 training for over a year now and my strength and size increase has been amazing.

I binned all of my previous workout routines and focused soley on compound movements, lifting progressively heavy with squats, deads, barbell rows, benchs etc

At the end of the day I dont want to look big but lift like a *****, so posers can go kiss my nuts.

Strength should be the basis for all weight lifters, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to realise this, its just with so many resources now people over complicate things and think they can train like a pro bb.

Like Ronny Coleman says "Everyone want to get big, but nobody wants to lift the heavy weights"

[BoxerTricks07]

Btw I wasnt suggesting 5x5 training is the only way to gain strength, just what works for me

[pebble]

Have not read anything in here, but the reason you train for size first deals with the rep range which prepares the tendons to the upcoming stress of strength training. It’s basic linear periodization.

[BoxerTricks07]

Basic science though-Strength = muscle mass

Your not going to be lifting heavy in compound excercises and not develop more muscle mass

[baseline_9]

I am currently writing a Power/Hypertrophy routine out that shows a great way to utilise both methods to produce fantastic gains...

Stay tuned....

I need some more trainees to try it out as well for feedback from on this board...

Anyone interested?

[-KJ-]

I am currently writing a Power/Hypertrophy routine out that shows a great way to utilise both methods to produce fantastic gains...

Stay tuned....

I need some more trainees to try it out as well for feedback from on this board...

Anyone interested?

Absolutly.. Id be happy to try it out and see what results it brings me.

[baseline_9]

Absolutly.. Id be happy to try it out and see what results it brings me.

I will link u asap

[Windex]

I am currently writing a Power/Hypertrophy routine out that shows a great way to utilise both methods to produce fantastic gains...

Stay tuned....

I need some more trainees to try it out as well for feedback from on this board...

Anyone interested?

I'd also be interested Baseline if you could PM me.

[Bigd89]

^count me in baseline...

[-KJ-]

I will link u asap

Cheers base appreciate it fella...

[pebble]

Basic science though-Strength = muscle mass

Your not going to be lifting heavy in compound excercises and not develop more muscle mass

You have the equation wrong.

Muscle mass --> strength, it does not work the other way around. Each fiber represents the potential for a finite force. Increased Strength does not guarantee increased fiber diameter because there are many neurological adaptations that can occur that do not result in increased muscle mass, but do shift the amount of force produced to the CSA (cross sectional areas) maximum level.

Think of weight class athletes that get stronger and stronger, but never change weight class or even look different from competition to competition.

The training for strength without a base has the potential to lead to tendon/muscle strains because muscle adapts faster to strain than the tendon does.

[PowerliftWill]

You have the equation wrong.

Muscle mass --> strength, it does not work the other way around. Each fiber represents the potential for a finite force. Increased Strength does not guarantee increased fiber diameter because there are many neurological adaptations that can occur that do not result in increased muscle mass, but do shift the amount of force produced to the CSA (cross sectional areas) maximum level.

Think of weight class athletes that get stronger and stronger, but never change weight class or even look different from competition to competition.

The training for strength without a base has the potential to lead to tendon/muscle strains because muscle adapts faster to strain than the tendon does.

I think you're misguided. yes lifting in the 1-3 reps range would equate to very little size but strength. Now the 5x5 you can easily gain mass and tons of strength at the same time. You will never be huge without being strong bro....the base we talk of IS strength. So when you switch to hypertrophy training it's more effective because you aren't lifting bitch weight.

BTW your last para is backwards, when your train for hypertrophy you tendons can be overworked due to the weight gain without strengthening them through strength training. heavy lifting prepares your tendons for the added musculature later on. Trust me at 5'7-5'8 and 215lbs, my frame would be ****ed if it werent for my heavy lifting strenghtening and thickening my tendons. i used to gain weight without much strength and i felt awkward and unbalanced, and my tendons and knees killed. then when I stopped being jackass and trained for strength before size, it all went away. Not to mention i got bigger than ever before as well.

Also those lifters don't get any bigger because they wan to stay in a certain weight class bud. They DONT want to get havier, so they dont eat to grow. your diet is more dependent on how much mass you gain as long as you arent in the 1-2 rep range.

[baseline_9]

Absolutly.. Id be happy to try it out and see what results it brings me.

I'd also be interested Baseline if you could PM me.

^count me in baseline...

Hopwfully this will be going live 2moro guys

[quarry206]

You have the equation wrong.

Muscle mass --> strength, it does not work the other way around. Each fiber represents the potential for a finite force. Increased Strength does not guarantee increased fiber diameter because there are many neurological adaptations that can occur that do not result in increased muscle mass, but do shift the amount of force produced to the CSA (cross sectional areas) maximum level.

Think of weight class athletes that get stronger and stronger, but never change weight class or even look different from competition to competition.

The training for strength without a base has the potential to lead to tendon/muscle strains because muscle adapts faster to strain than the tendon does.

very mis guided, if implying you have to have muscle there first to be able to lift heavy. muscle size has to do with hypertrophy, strength has to do with your CNS... your CNS does not need a massive amount of muscle to life a single rep.

I would guess to say about 70% of this site are more muscular and bigger than me, but only a small handful could out bench or squat me. though muscle needs to be there, it has little to do with strength when it comes to size compared to strength

[Bigd89]

What are your lifts and bodyweight?

[pebble]

very mis guided, if implying you have to have muscle there first to be able to lift heavy. muscle size has to do with hypertrophy, strength has to do with your CNS... your CNS does not need a massive amount of muscle to life a single rep.

I would guess to say about 70% of this site are more muscular and bigger than me, but only a small handful could out bench or squat me. though muscle needs to be there, it has little to do with strength when it comes to size compared to strength

It sounds like you just said what I said. Strength training is primary a neurological phenomenon with its limitations garnered by absolute CSA. That's why increased strength =/= increases in muscle size, but increase in muscle size = increased strength. Each fiber has absolute force it can produce at 100% contraction (shortening). Therefore the CSA of any fiber is responsible for an absolute portion of that force. This means that the size of the muscle directly correlates to the maximal force a fiber can generate. It does not mean that we activate fully (100%) when we try our hardest, but that is the maximum force that can be generated if we could ever achieve full activation. Something every strength athlete strives for.


By the way it has very little to do with your CNS, it primarily has to do with your PNS - innervation, rate coding, synchronization, antagonist inhibition ...
It's a common mistake because it is perpetuated by most internet gurus, and that's what most people consider good research/information on training.

[pebble]

I think you're misguided. yes lifting in the 1-3 reps range would equate to very little size but strength. Now the 5x5 you can easily gain mass and tons of strength at the same time. You will never be huge without being strong bro....the base we talk of IS strength. So when you switch to hypertrophy training it's more effective because you aren't lifting bitch weight.

BTW your last para is backwards, when your train for hypertrophy you tendons can be overworked due to the weight gain without strengthening them through strength training. heavy lifting prepares your tendons for the added musculature later on. Trust me at 5'7-5'8 and 215lbs, my frame would be ****ed if it werent for my heavy lifting strenghtening and thickening my tendons. i used to gain weight without much strength and i felt awkward and unbalanced, and my tendons and knees killed. then when I stopped being jackass and trained for strength before size, it all went away. Not to mention i got bigger than ever before as well.

Also those lifters don't get any bigger because they wan to stay in a certain weight class bud. They DONT want to get havier, so they dont eat to grow. your diet is more dependent on how much mass you gain as long as you arent in the 1-2 rep range.

Gonna lay it out like this, youre simply wrong. The body takes times to adapt to a stress. If you just started to train heavy without a base you would set yourself up for injuries at the musculotendonious junction. The tendon will not be prepared to the stress and injury results. Tendons cells have a longer life cycle than muscle cells, therefore they take longer to repair and reproduce stronger more prepared cells.

To keep things simple, think of it this way. Do you just jump right into a 1rm or do you warm up and prep the body? No, you warm up. This is the same thing you need to do with the Tendon. You prepare the tendon for the upcoming heavy lifting by introducing it to stress that it can handle without casing significant tissue injury, such as hypertrophy training.

Its why basic linear periodization is laid out endurance --> hypertrophy--> strength --> power. Look at any legitimate training book and you will see this over and over again. You are not only debating me at this point, you are going against some of the greatest strength coaches in the world such as Tudor Bompa. Look him up, because before you even start discussion periodization you better know the guy that brought it to the west.

[PowerliftWill]

Gonna lay it out like this, youre simply wrong. The body takes times to adapt to a stress. If you just started to train heavy without a base you would set yourself up for injuries at the musculotendonious junction. The tendon will not be prepared to the stress and injury results. Tendons cells have a longer life cycle than muscle cells, therefore they take longer to repair and reproduce stronger more prepared cells.

To keep things simple, think of it this way. Do you just jump right into a 1rm or do you warm up and prep the body? No, you warm up. This is the same thing you need to do with the Tendon. You prepare the tendon for the upcoming heavy lifting by introducing it to stress that it can handle without casing significant tissue injury, such as hypertrophy training.

Its why basic linear periodization is laid out endurance --> hypertrophy--> strength --> power. Look at any legitimate training book and you will see this over and over again. You are not only debating me at this point, you are going against some of the greatest strength coaches in the world such as Tudor Bompa. Look him up, because before you even start discussion periodization you better know the guy that brought it to the west.

You are so far up your as* it's amazing. You DO NOT NEED A MASS BASE TO GAIN STRENGTH. Im not arguing you dont need periodization, so drop that right now. Im saying you dont need to be huge to get freaky strong. You're saying you will get injured right? if you arent big but so strong? Then tell me smart guy, why do 130lb olympic lifters clean and jerk more than you squat? surely according to you those tiny tendons on those 130lb frames would snap like twigs under that weight. yet they dont get injured that much and strive to get stronger at a set bodyweight. Sure it's easier to get stronger as you get bigger because YOURE EATING MORE. youre 1rm analogy is crap too....obviously you wouldnt warm up with a 1rm, nor would you ONLY do 1rm. obvious youd get hurt from just doing that. Im talking about 5x5's or reps under 5. I would like to see your stats bud if you know what your talking about u should be huge and strong. Post some pics too.

Btw here's mine:

5'7"
215lb
15-16% bf

Bench: 410
Squat: 515
deadlift: 595

I've rarely train over 8 reps. 8 is the highest I go when using proper periodization. and for a very limited amount of time.

[pebble]

Never once did I say you need to get big. I said you need hypertrophy training which equates to a specific rep range and subsequently stress levels that allow your body (specifically tendons) time to adapt before strength training.

Do you think those tiny lifters don't have periodized programs? Take a look at some programs, maybe from that guy Bompa that I mentioned seeing he is responsible for the periodization of western athletes. Do you think they just jumped into Olympic lifting? The built foundation through multiple rep ranges before engaging in that type of stress. And even at this level, they move through general periodization throughout the year just like any other person. Heck periodization was truly designed for Olympic athletes to peak for that one competition. At the beginning of every Cycle there is time set aside for anatomical adaptation (look it up again).

And saying O-lifters don't get injured often is stupid, you don't know that. It's like me saying astronauts have longer hair than the average person.

You can try to get me to toss up #s or pictures, but it will not make me anymore right or less right. It's irrelevant to the information. How about you post pictures of your diplomas, degrees, certifications, and accreditation's relevant to this topic. That would make some more sense.


I will not respond to your post in this thread anymore if have make personal attacks and don't bring anything more to the table than it's my way because I say so. It is pointless to converse with someone when they are ignorant to the topic.

[dec11]

You are so far up your as* it's amazing. You DO NOT NEED A MASS BASE TO GAIN STRENGTH. Im not arguing you dont need periodization, so drop that right now. Im saying you dont need to be huge to get freaky strong. You're saying you will get injured right? if you arent big but so strong? Then tell me smart guy, why do 130lb olympic lifters clean and jerk more than you squat? surely according to you those tiny tendons on those 130lb frames would snap like twigs under that weight. yet they dont get injured that much and strive to get stronger at a set bodyweight. Sure it's easier to get stronger as you get bigger because YOURE EATING MORE. youre 1rm analogy is crap too....obviously you wouldnt warm up with a 1rm, nor would you ONLY do 1rm. obvious youd get hurt from just doing that. Im talking about 5x5's or reps under 5. I would like to see your stats bud if you know what your talking about u should be huge and strong. Post some pics too.

Btw here's mine:

5'7"
215lb
15-16% bf

Bench: 410
Squat: 515
deadlift: 595

I've rarely train over 8 reps. 8 is the highest I go when using proper periodization. and for a very limited amount of time.

^^^^x2

[FireGuy]

If you guys could all make your points without resorting to name calling and lose the condescending overtones this thread would be one of the better ones we have had for awhile.

[PowerliftWill]

If you guys could all make your points without resorting to name calling and lose the condescending overtones this thread would be one of the better ones we have had for awhile.

Will do. As for pebble. Pictures are everything, if you're so in tuned with what you are talking about, surely you've subjected yourself to your own knowledge and made yourself big and strong, right? But i'm guessing not because your knowledge is flawed, as so many on this board would point out. And please, for the last time, I never once said you don't need periodization. I even admitted I use it myself, not to mention it wasn't the original statement I started to argue over. The argument was: (in caps so you dont bring up periodization for the hundreth time) "YOU NEED TO HYPERTROPHY SPECIFIC TRAINING TO STRENGTHEN TENDONS BEFORE YOU TRAIN FRO STRENGTH OR ELSE INJURY IS LIKELY TO OCCUR" <<<according to you. My argument is "NO YOU DONT, STRENGTH TRAINING ITSELF STRENGTHENS THE TENDONS. CORRECT FORM, PROPER NUTRITION, AND ADEQUATE REST WILL ARE FAR MORE IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF AVOIDING INJURY. Bro you're totally missing what I am trying to say. You are saying hypertrophy training (8-12 reps) will strengthen tendons and joints more than strength training will. I know every athlete uses periodization but that has nothing to do with our original argument. You originally said heavy lifting (1-5) rep range will put wayy too much stress on the tendons and joints. If done with correct form, lifting that heavy promotes tendon strength more than any other rep work. That's why they say build a strength base before you do hypertrophy work for multiple reasons. You can believe what you want, but me and the majority of the people on this board will believe what I do.

Again you say pics and stats are not imporant, then what measures success? How can you sit there and say my logic is flawed when i bench 400, squat close to 500 and dead almost 600 and be 215 @ 5'7" with no injuries EVER, yet when asked for pics and stats, you just say you'll quit arguing because I have no proof that what i do works. WELL THERE'S YOUR PROOF^^^^^^^ AND EVERYONE ELSES STATS AND PICS WHO DO THE SAME AS I DO. If you refuse to show your body and your lifts, how can you even profess your methods work? Proof is based of results my friend, not the copy and paste from google.

[pebble]

I never once said strength training does not cause tendons to get stronger. I said before introducing your tendons to very stressful situations (i.e. strength training) you should prepare them with a phase of moderate stress (i.e. hypertrophy) to allow them to adapt and be prepared for the further overload to occur.

As for your logic as to pictures or stats, you are one person and you cannot attribute any of your gains to one specific methodology or intervention because you have not controlled all variables. Furthermore, our debate is not about how to gain strength or muscle size, it is about rate of tendon injury in relation to periodization. You are bringing up moot points. If you have something legitimate to add about this topic do so. But I do not believe you have done that once yet. Explain to me why the tendon is unlike any other tissue in the body. Why does it not need gradual progression?

Have you ever heard of Robert Tools, the man that was given the first fully self-contained artificial heart? They put it in and had it set an the average person cardiac output (in this case we are concerned with the pressure it causes), but because his body was so detrained from having a weak heart he started to bleed out through his vascular system because the stress was too high. They needed to adjust the heart to a reduced cardiac output (therefore less pressure) which resulted in ceased bleeding out. Over time the the vessels adapted to the stress and cardiac output could be increased slowly.

It is the same thing with muscle tendons. If we cause too large of a stress to early we risk injuring them because we did not properly prepare them.

What are you really debating here? Bold what you dissagree with in this post and explain your rational for disagreeing. I welcome the possibility of an intellectually stimulating conversation.

[baseline_9]

I am currently writing a Power/Hypertrophy routine out that shows a great way to utilise both methods to produce fantastic gains...

Stay tuned....

I need some more trainees to try it out as well for feedback from on this board...

Anyone interested?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...37#post5632437

[PowerliftWill]

I never once said strength training does not cause tendons to get stronger. I said before introducing your tendons to very stressful situations (i.e. strength training) you should prepare them with a phase of moderate stress (i.e. hypertrophy) to allow them to adapt and be prepared for the further overload to occur.

As for your logic as to pictures or stats, you are one person and you cannot attribute any of your gains to one specific methodology or intervention because you have not controlled all variables. Furthermore, our debate is not about how to gain strength or muscle size, it is about rate of tendon injury in relation to periodization. You are bringing up moot points. If you have something legitimate to add about this topic do so. But I do not believe you have done that once yet. Explain to me why the tendon is unlike any other tissue in the body. Why does it not need gradual progression?

Have you ever heard of Robert Tools, the man that was given the first fully self-contained artificial heart? They put it in and had it set an the average person cardiac output (in this case we are concerned with the pressure it causes), but because his body was so detrained from having a weak heart he started to bleed out through his vascular system because the stress was too high. They needed to adjust the heart to a reduced cardiac output (therefore less pressure) which resulted in ceased bleeding out. Over time the the vessels adapted to the stress and cardiac output could be increased slowly.

It is the same thing with muscle tendons. If we cause too large of a stress to early we risk injuring them because we did not properly prepare them.

What are you really debating here? Bold what you dissagree with in this post and explain your rational for disagreeing. I welcome the possibility of an intellectually stimulating conversation.

I never it was how to gain muscle size and strength, but my strength level and size from only lifting mostly in the 5x5's would according to you stress my tendons out early, yet i've only trained in that area.

I have moot points? You bring up a guy with an artificial heart and how his cardiovascular system couldn't adapt to his new heart, I get the article, but it has nothing to do with our CNS and tendons, a completely different area of expertise. And yet you've shown no evidence that heavy lifting done with CORRECT FORM, will cause any premature injury.

Once again, you refuse to post pictures and stats continually showing me you have zero credibility in your arguments, and just copy and paste information you read. And believe me, i'm not the only one who feels your information is bogus and that you are just a troll, quite a few respectable members with much more progress than me feel this way. **The beauty of private messaging**

Anyways, im done arguing with you. It's a waste of my effort. Please do not post on my thread again, this is about muscle growth when comparing strength before size. Take your tendon BS elsewhere, since it is completely off topic anyways. Good day.

[pebble]

I never it was how to gain muscle size and strength, but my strength level and size from only lifting mostly in the 5x5's would according to you stress my tendons out early, yet i've only trained in that area.

Likely you have, but are choosing to ignore or did not realize signs of bursitis, tendonitis and other capsular insults.

I have moot points? You bring up a guy with an artificial heart and how his cardiovascular system couldn't adapt to his new heart, I get the article, but it has nothing to do with our CNS and tendons, a completely different area of expertise. And yet you've shown no evidence that heavy lifting done with CORRECT FORM, will cause any premature injury.

It is a prime example of tissue insult as a result of stress above a tissue capacity. It is an example of how ones tissues must adapt to stress progressively. Tendons are not unique in this fashion, they to follow the basic stress-strain laws that all tissue do.

Once again, you refuse to post pictures and stats continually showing me you have zero credibility in your arguments, and just copy and paste information you read. And believe me, i'm not the only one who feels your information is bogus and that you are just a troll, quite a few respectable members with much more progress than me feel this way. **The beauty of private messaging**

How do pictures or states validate my credibility about human (exercise) physiology? Can you explain this to me? I hope you find comfort in not being the only one that finds my information bogus, but unfortunately it is not. As Albert Einstein would say, just because you don’t understand the physiology behind my view does it make it incorrect. I assure I do understand the physiology and it is correct.

I have not once copied and pasted a piece of information here. If I did not write it from my own knowledge from years of academia and application I have referenced the material; As can be seen by multiply studies posted in other treads I have contributed to.

Anyways, im done arguing with you. It's a waste of my effort. Please do not post on my thread again, this is about muscle growth when comparing strength before size. Take your tendon BS elsewhere, since it is completely off topic anyways. Good day.

I think this is where we differ, and likely why you do not understand the concept I am trying to explain to you. You see this as arguing where I see it as an opportunity to discuss relevant training material and possibly take something away.

It` s not off topic as it relates to possible injury as a result of periodizing strength before hypertrophy training. If you are willing blindly and ignorantly going to pass along information knowingly that may cause harm to them without warning you are a revolting human being.

And onto the topic how does being stronger allow one to gain more hypertrophy? Are you going to say because it allows for more overload? This means that the muscle is more stimulated and therefore responds to a larger degree? Well that’s wrong. Overload is a relative term. The amount of overload a muscle gets from 50 or 100lbs is relative to the muscles maximal ability to generate force. What about the basics of TuT (time under tension)? Does it not play a role in stimulus for adaptation? So how does strength training lead to more muscle gain than hypertrophy?

[PowerliftWill]

Likely you have, but are choosing to ignore or did not realize signs of bursitis, tendonitis and other capsular insults.

It is a prime example of tissue insult as a result of stress above a tissue capacity. It is an example of how ones tissues must adapt to stress progressively. Tendons are not unique in this fashion, they to follow the basic stress-strain laws that all tissue do.

How do pictures or states validate my credibility about human (exercise) physiology? Can you explain this to me? I hope you find comfort in not being the only one that finds my information bogus, but unfortunately it is not. As Albert Einstein would say, just because you don’t understand the physiology behind my view does it make it incorrect. I assure I do understand the physiology and it is correct.

I have not once copied and pasted a piece of information here. If I did not write it from my own knowledge from years of academia and application I have referenced the material; As can be seen by multiply studies posted in other treads I have contributed to.

I think this is where we differ, and likely why you do not understand the concept I am trying to explain to you. You see this as arguing where I see it as an opportunity to discuss relevant training material and possibly take something away.

It` s not off topic as it relates to possible injury as a result of periodizing strength before hypertrophy training. If you are willing blindly and ignorantly going to pass along information knowingly that may cause harm to them without warning you are a revolting human being.

And onto the topic how does being stronger allow one to gain more hypertrophy? Are you going to say because it allows for more overload? This means that the muscle is more stimulated and therefore responds to a larger degree? Well that’s wrong. Overload is a relative term. The amount of overload a muscle gets from 50 or 100lbs is relative to the muscles maximal ability to generate force. What about the basics of TuT (time under tension)? Does it not play a role in stimulus for adaptation? So how does strength training lead to more muscle gain than hypertrophy?

"Likely you have, but are choosing to ignore or did not realize signs of bursitis, tendonitis and other capsular insults."

If this statement isn't enough to make everyone reading this realize this guy is a total troll and completely full of sh*t for thinking HE knows MY body better than ME, then I have no idea what will. Okay, now i'm done responding, just needed people to see the light.

[dec11]

Likely you have, but are choosing to ignore or did not realize signs of bursitis, tendonitis and other capsular insults.

It is a prime example of tissue insult as a result of stress above a tissue capacity. It is an example of how ones tissues must adapt to stress progressively. Tendons are not unique in this fashion, they to follow the basic stress-strain laws that all tissue do.

How do pictures or states validate my credibility about human (exercise) physiology? Can you explain this to me? I hope you find comfort in not being the only one that finds my information bogus, but unfortunately it is not. As Albert Einstein would say, just because you don’t understand the physiology behind my view does it make it incorrect. I assure I do understand the physiology and it is correct.

I have not once copied and pasted a piece of information here. If I did not write it from my own knowledge from years of academia and application I have referenced the material; As can be seen by multiply studies posted in other treads I have contributed to.

I think this is where we differ, and likely why you do not understand the concept I am trying to explain to you. You see this as arguing where I see it as an opportunity to discuss relevant training material and possibly take something away.

It` s not off topic as it relates to possible injury as a result of periodizing strength before hypertrophy training. If you are willing blindly and ignorantly going to pass along information knowingly that may cause harm to them without warning you are a revolting human being.

And onto the topic how does being stronger allow one to gain more hypertrophy? Are you going to say because it allows for more overload? This means that the muscle is more stimulated and therefore responds to a larger degree? Well that’s wrong. Overload is a relative term. The amount of overload a muscle gets from 50 or 100lbs is relative to the muscles maximal ability to generate force. What about the basics of TuT (time under tension)? Does it not play a role in stimulus for adaptation? So how does strength training lead to more muscle gain than hypertrophy?

seriously, you need to stop big time

[pebble]

"Likely you have, but are choosing to ignore or did not realize signs of bursitis, tendonitis and other capsular insults."

If this statement isn't enough to make everyone reading this realize this guy is a total troll and completely full of sh*t for thinking HE knows MY body better than ME, then I have no idea what will. Okay, now i'm done responding, just needed people to see the light.

FireGuy, sorry for this first paragraph, but I am tired of being called a troll when I have only presented information in this thread as PowerlifWill has personally attacked me without providing any content to combat my stance or defend his own.
If every one of your posts that have quoted my statements without addressing any of my information with counterpoints or new information has not displayed your inability to justify your stance on this topic and shed light onto your ineptitude on this subject than I pity them more than I do you.
I will let you off the hook for disagreement of periodization and possible consequences to misapplication. I sprung that topic on you because I felt like it was related, but you feel it was not. Even so, why have you not answered any questions I have presented on this topic? Shed some light on the topic. Illuminate my idiocy for everyone to see.
I will repost them here for you:
“… how does being stronger allow one to gain more hypertrophy? Are you going to say because it allows for more overload? This means that the muscle is more stimulated and therefore responds to a larger degree? Well that’s wrong. Overload is a relative term. The amount of overload a muscle gets from 50 or 100lbs is relative to the muscles maximal ability to generate force. What about the basics of TuT (time under tension)? Does it not play a role in stimulus for adaptation? So how does strength training lead to more muscle gain than hypertrophy?”

And Will, sorry, but I do know your body better than you. Lucky for me human physiology doesn't differ much between subjects, 90% of us full right under the standard bell-curve. And even the ones that fall to either side ... they don't differ dramatically.

[pebble]

seriously, you need to stop big time

As for you dec, haven't I already discredited you with basic anatomy? It's obvious you have no form of formal training or education related to this topic and only speak from personal experience. That's fine and worth sharing with people, but don't neglect a possibility to learn while participating on this form.

If you are not going to contribute to this thread why don't you simply keep your hands away from the keyboard.

[dec11]

As for you dec, haven't I already discredited you with basic anatomy? It's obvious you have no form of formal training or education related to this topic and only speak from personal experience. That's fine and worth sharing with people, but don't neglect a possibility to learn while participating on this form.

If you are not going to contribute to this thread why don't you simply keep your hands away from the keyboard.

no...... and a BSc in sport science would have me placed pretty high on the scale u conceited excuse for a human being

[PowerliftWill]

seriously, you need to stop big time

It's okay, i'll let him waste his energy and type 500 word paragraphs for no reason other than to please himself. But at the end of the day, im injury free, bigger, and stronger than him so he can fall back on his "human physiology" all he wants. I'd be mad too if I had to cycle to get to 200lbs at 5'9" after training for 7 years and only reaching 189 naturally.

PowerliftWill out.