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Thread: Morning Fasted Cardio Truth

  1. #1
    armyranger516862006's Avatar
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    Morning Fasted Cardio Truth

    Ok guys here it is i go to work at 6am. I can get up at 430am at the earliest. I always enjoyed morning cardio, but now i am more conscious about muscle loss. I want to here from the experts about morning cardio in a fasted state. I heard someone say BCAAs during the cardio would prevent muscle breakdown. If i do the cardio (jog) fasted, it will only be for like 15 to 20 minutes. I can eat breakfast right after if it helps. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by armyranger516862006; 05-18-2013 at 06:50 PM.

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    If your training with a low to moderate intensity then your body is quite happy to just use fat as an energy source. Its only if you woke up and trained like a ninja, then you body would panic and start breaking down muscle for a faster hit of energy

    EDIT - I feel like my low post count lowers the value of what I post lol. I've been a fitness instructor in the army for 4 years and a ACSM CPT for 3 years before that.
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    Ok that's what i figured about the low intensity. So i will stick to a steady pace jog for about 20 minutes. Thanks buddy!

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    Yea a 20min steady state jog is cool. Don't do what I did and go fasted for morning PT, which turned out out to be an 11 mile speed run......

    I'm pretty sure I lost like 2 weeks worth of gains from that one session alone

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    40 min would be best, if you can swing it.

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    Oh no i will not do that lol! Really 40 mins, that's not too much!? I could do 40mins, once i get back into it id really enjoy running.

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    Yeah... 40 minutes at least for me. I do 45 to an hour. Unless I'm beat, least I've done is 30 minutes.
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    Is 20 mins on stepper worth it? I'm not a big cardio guy. Bores the shit out of me like most I guess. But I've been good. I'm trying to add time as I get into it. But right now consistent 20 mins.

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    Well then i will for sure do 40 mins. I can't wait to start this. I actually love doing cardio especially in the morning. It just puts me in a good energetic mood for the day! Thanks again guys and by the way your awesome Austinite! You always help!
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    I personally like 40-60 mins at a low pace. Personally I keep HR between 130-140. Prefer fasted

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    Shadow530i is offline Junior Member
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    45minutes fastest cardio @135 for me. Keeps me lean...too bad I'm kinda built like a stick lol.

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    Would it be ok to throw in some BCAAs if you have them? Or is this an overkill?

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    They wouldn't hurt. I drink bcaa during faster cardio.

    I like the stepper for cardio cause you can actually focus on working the calves, or your glutes, depending how you stand and engage different muscles. I like it cause it breaks up the monotony of the cardio session.

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    Overall Loss of muscle tissue is going to be determined by diet...

    You will be fine...

    Cardio is just a way to burn calories.... Nothing magical, no magical number of minutes....


    And a good tip for cardio is to count calories burned rather than mins..... That way you can make weekly adjustments based on some data (weight, BF%, calories, calories burned via cardio etc....) rather than just blindly doing cardio and not really knowing what your getting out of it....
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    Quote Originally Posted by cj111 View Post
    They wouldn't hurt. I drink bcaa during faster cardio.

    I like the stepper for cardio cause you can actually focus on working the calves, or your glutes, depending how you stand and engage different muscles. I like it cause it breaks up the monotony of the cardio session.
    love doin this. Ten.mins before weights get blood pumping. Ten.minutes after.to warm down. I rotate hwtween kicking out with quads, squeezin em back for glutes. N some straight legged full stretch n flex calves. ;-)

    I find it helps me kinda focus, n yes, i stole this method from kai. Just works for me personally. Really gets that mind to muscle connection firing off.

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    I will throw some BCCAs in there because i currently have a bunch of it. That all makes sense! I mean if your taking in the level calories to support the muscle tissue then you should be ok duh lol! I like that better, following the calories instead of how many minutes. What about riding a stationary bike. I have one of those in my room. I could do it at 10 resistance, should get my heart rate to about 155. Thanks!

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    Fasted cardio is very catabolic, and unless you are severely overweight, I wouldn’t recommend it. We want to lose fat and retain as much muscle mass as possible, the best way to do fasted cardio is to take a protein supplement before the session to prevent muscle breakdown. Fasted cardio isn’t that much better than fed cardio. There really isn’t much difference to the calories burned between fasted and fed cardio. I feel more energized when I’m fed which allows me to perform more intense cardio sessions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerspawn View Post
    Fasted cardio is very catabolic, and unless you are severely overweight, I wouldn’t recommend it. We want to lose fat and retain as much muscle mass as possible, the best way to do fasted cardio is to take a protein supplement before the session to prevent muscle breakdown. Fasted cardio isn’t that much better than fed cardio. There really isn’t much difference to the calories burned between fasted and fed cardio. I feel more energized when I’m fed which allows me to perform more intense cardio sessions.
    There are points I strongly agree with and disagree with in this post lol

    Stating that Fasted cardio is 'very catabolic' is a bad statement..... There are too many other variables to take into consideration to just say that fasted cardio is very catabolic.... And realistically, if everything in the plan is set up well, no it is not very catabolic ....

    I do agree that fasted is probably no better than fed cardio..... However I do see advantages to fasted cardio when one gets fairly lean in optimising fatty acid mobilisation...... But even that is questionable when you look at the 'bigger picture' and look to the overall fat calories burned per day....

    I do agree that fed cardio can be performed more intensely which will yield a greater calorie burn (which is what matters most)..... However I am more of an advocate now of a calorie goal per session vs time spent doing the cardio..... So it makes no difference what you do....
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerspawn View Post
    Fasted cardio is very catabolic, and unless you are severely overweight, I wouldn’t recommend it. We want to lose fat and retain as much muscle mass as possible, the best way to do fasted cardio is to take a protein supplement before the session to prevent muscle breakdown. Fasted cardio isn’t that much better than fed cardio. There really isn’t much difference to the calories burned between fasted and fed cardio. I feel more energized when I’m fed which allows me to perform more intense cardio sessions.
    Oh no, not this shit again! Let's just say I highly disagree with you, but I have no energy to debate this topic again...I'm waving my white flag!
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  20. #20
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    “Fasted Cardio Is Bad

    It's a common practice for athletes, bodybuilders, and other fat loss die-hards to wake up early, skip breakfast, and jump right on the treadmill with an eye toward obliterating body fat. This strategy has been employed by many great fitness athletes, and has received credit for helping them getting rid of those pesky extra pounds.

    The common rationale for the fasted morning workout is that low glycogen levels cause the body to use fat rather than carbohydrates for fuel. Unfortunately, this flies in the face of basic exercise science and physiology. Let me explain.

    The benefits of food consumption—particularly of glucose and protein—far outweigh any perceived benefits from fasting. Having these substances available as fuel will limit protein loss and thus maintain muscle mass, increase performance, and increase fat oxidation post-exercise. For most of us, these are the goals that cause us to work out in the first place.

    The Fuel Continuum

    Normally, the body will use all fuel sources—including carbohydrates, protein, and fat—during exercise. Depending on the intensity and duration of exercise, one will become the primary fuel, but only for a limited time.

    When using carbohydrates as the fuel source for a workout, the body will shift toward greater usage of fat post-workout. Alternatively, if the body burns fat during cardio, it will use carbohydrates afterward. High intensity levels of training, such as HIIT training, produce a greater dependence on carbohydrates as fuel during workout. Then, following this workout, those who follow HIIT will continue to burn fat for far longer than they were in the gym.

    It's important to remember that this fuel delivery system operates on a continuum—it's not simply one fuel source or the other. Many factors determine which fuel source the body will tap at any given time, and it is better to think of fat-burning goals in a time frame of days rather than minutes. In other words, the fat loss from any one early-morning cardio session isn't going to have a significant effect on body composition or overall fat loss.

    The Fat-Burning Myth

    So basic physiology casts doubt on the effectiveness of the fasted workout. What's more, specific research hasn't been much more supportive.

    In one study at the University of Texas at Austin, moderately trained individuals were divided into two groups. One fasted prior to performing low-intensity cardio, and the other consumed carbohydrates. There was no difference between the groups in the amount of fat oxidation during the exercise until the 80-90-minute mark of exercise, at which point there was slight increase in fat oxidation for the fasted group. In the same study, moderate-intensity cardio produced no difference between the fasted and fed groups.

    Two other studies took the same idea and applied it to endurance athletes. Again, no differences were found between fasted and fed groups. The fasted groups in these studies showed evidence of fat being liberated from adipose tissue, but that fat was never fully oxidized. This means that it was re-established into fatty tissue on the body after the exercise bout. So the technique failed the primary goal of early-morning fasted cardio.

    Eat Up And Still Burn

    From an exercise perspective, there are multiple reasons to eat before working out. First and foremost, attempting to engage in high-intensity training on an empty stomach will undermine your performance. Having a pre-training meal primes the body for performance and provides the fuel needed to satisfy the demands of the session. Training intensely on an empty stomach will demand caloric expenditure that the body cannot fully meet, leading to diminished returns.

    Another benefit of eating before exercise is the thermogenic effect from the digestion of the food, which multiple studies have shown actually improves fat oxidation. The process of digestion causes the body's temperature to rise, leading to a greater use of nutrients during exercise. The high level of oxygen consumption during intense exercise intensifies this effect. Indeed, it has been shown that greater use of both fat and carbohydrates occurs after consuming glucose before low- and high-intensity training when compared to not consuming glucose before exercise.

    If your goal is muscle growth or maintenance, fueling up is doubly important. Going into cardiovascular training hungry puts you at risk of significant loss of protein. When each gram you consume is valuable, fasting isn't your fat-loss friend.

    The Numbers Game
    So what's to explain the success many claim with fasted early-morning workouts? Well, the person is working out, and this burns more calories. The same would hold true if you went from training once per day to twice per day, or if you changed from a sedentary lifestyle to regular exercise. As the caloric demand on your body increases, chances are you'll lose weight.

    That's a positive development—but training in a fasted state sets you up to lose the muscle you have worked so hard to create. Eat before you leave for the gym for a better workout experience and better results. And did we say you get to eat breakfast?”

    Sources

    •Febbraio MA, Chiu A, Angus DJ, Arkinstall MJ, and Hawley JA. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000; 89: 2220-2226.
    •Gibala MJ, Little JP, van Essen M, Wilkin GP, Burgomaster KA, Safdar A, Raha S, and Tarnopolsky MA. Short-term sprint interval versus traditional endurance training: Similar initial adaptations in human skeletal muscle and exercise performance. J Physiol. 200; 615(pt 3): 901-911.
    •Horowitz JF, Mora-Rodriguez R, Byerley LO, and Coyle EF. Lipolytic suppression following carbohydrate ingestion limits fat oxidation during exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 1997; 273: E768-E775.
    •Horowitz JF, Mora-Rodriguez R, Byerley LO, and Coyle EF. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999; 276(5 Pt 1): E828-E835.
    •Lee YS, Ha MS, and Lee YJ. The effects of various intensities and durations of exercise with and without glucose in milk ingestion on post exercise oxygen consumption. J Sports Med Physical Fitness. 1999; 39: 341-347.
    •Lemon PW and Mullin JP. Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1980; 48: 624-629.
    •Schoenfeld B. Does cardio after an overnight fast maximize fat loss? Strength and Conditioning Journal. 2011; 33: 23-25.
    •Schabort EJ, Bosch AN, Weltan SM, and Noakes TD. The effect of a preexercise meal on time to fatigue during prolonged cycling exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999; 31: 464-471.
    •Wright DA, Sherman WM, and Dernbach AR. Carbohydrate feedings before, during, or in combination improve cycling endurance performance. J Appl Physiol. 1991; 71: 1082-1088.

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    If i day have a meal. Usually clean no carbs(bad) just fibrous carbs like mixed frozen veg n green beans. With turkey breast. 1-1,1/2 Hours later did weights for one hour (2hrstotal) theeennnnn jad shake. Half hour to hour break. Thrn (n ive reduced this due to 1, some advice from kowledgeable member and 2, because ive dropped 3 kilos last couple days.

    I used to do up to hour hiit very intense training. After each weight session. 5*Week. But now gunna limit it to say 20mins?

    or would i be better stikk waiting the half hour or hour but doing around 130 heartbeat for hour? so as not to shock muscles into catabolic mode?

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    Great post tigerspawn excellent points!

  23. #23
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    Sorry Tigerspawn no offense but if Austinite and Baseline say so, then i am gonna follow it. I have friends that do the Intermittent Fasting and are big ****ers lol! I used to do Fasted cardio before not caring about muscle tissue and now that i think about i never lost much of anything. I actually feel great doing it on an empty stomach, no loss in performance whatsoever! I seem to hang on to muscle a lot easier, than a lot of people. I would have to literately do some hardcore cardio HIIT for it to affect me negatively, which i don't do.
    Last edited by armyranger516862006; 05-21-2013 at 08:14 PM.

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    “Does Cardio After an Overnight Fast Maximise Fat Loss?

    A common fat burning strategy employed by bodybuilders, athletes, and fitness enthusiasts is to perform cardiovascular exercise early in the morning on an empty stomach. This strategy was popularized by Bill Phillips in his book, ‘‘Body for Life’’ (23). According to Phillips, performing 20 minutes of intense aerobic exercise after an overnight fast has greater effects on fat loss than performing an entire hour of cardio in the postprandial state. The rationale for the theory is that low glycogen levels cause your body to shift energy utilization away from carbohydrates, thereby allowing greater mobilization of stored fat for fuel. However, although the prospect of reducing the body fat by training in a fasted state may sound enticing, science does not support its efficacy.

    First and foremost, it is shortsighted to look solely at how much fat is burned during an exercise session. The human body is very dynamic and continually adjusts its use of fat for fuel. Substrate utilization is governed by a host of factors (i.e., hormonal secretions, enzyme activity, transcription factors, etc), and these factors can change by the moment (27). Thus, fat burning must be considered over the course of days—not on an hour-to-hour basis—to get a meaningful perspective on its impact on body composition (13). As a general rule, if you burn more carbohydrate during a workout, you inevitably burn more fat in the post- exercise period and vice versa.
    It should be noted that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) has proven to be a superior method for maximizing fat loss compared with a moderate- intensity steady-state training (10,26,29). Interestingly, studies show that blood flow to adipose tissue diminishes at higher levels of intensity (24). This is believed to entrap free fatty acids within fat cells, impeding their ability to be oxidized while training. Yet, despite lower fat oxidation rates during exercise, fat loss is nevertheless greater over time in those who engage in HIIT versus training in the ‘‘fat burning zone’’ (29), providing further evidence that 24-hour energy balance is the most important determinant in reducing body fat.

    The concept of performing cardiovascular exercise on an empty stomach to enhance fat loss is flawed even when examining its impact on the amount of fat burned in the exercise session alone. True, multiple studies show that consumption of carbohydrate before low- intensity aerobic exercise (up to approximately 60% V_o2max) in untrained subjects reduces the entry of long-chain fatty acids in the mitochondria, thereby blunting fat oxidation (1,14,18,28). This is attributed to an insulin -mediated attenuation of adipose tissue lipolysis, an increased glycolytic flux, and a decreased expression of genes involved in fatty acid transport and oxidation (3,6,15). However, both training status and aerobic exercise intensity have been shown to mitigate the effects of a pre-exercise meal on fat oxidation (4,5,24). Recent research has shed light on the complexities of the subject.

    Horowitz et al. (14) studied the fat burning response of 6 moderately trained individuals in a fed versus fasted state to different training intensities. Subjects cycled for 2 hours at varying intensities on 4 separate occasions. During 2 of the trials, they consumed a high-glycemic carbohydrate meal at 30, 60, and 90 minutes of training, once at a low intensity (25% peak oxygen consumption) and once at a moderate intensity (68% peak oxygen consumption). During the other 2 trials, subjects were kept fasted for 12–14 hours before exercise and for the duration of training. Results in the low-intensity trials showed that although lipolysis was suppressed by 22% in the fed state compared with the fasted state, fat oxidation remained similar between groups until 80–90 minutes of cycling. Only after this point was a greater fat oxidation rate observed in fasted subjects. Conversely, during moderate-intensity cycling, fat oxidation was not different between trials at any time—this is despite a 20–25% reduction in lipolysis and plasma Free fatty acid concentration.

    More recently, Febbraio et al. (9) evaluated the effect of pre-exercise and during exercise carbohydrate consumption on fat oxidation. Using a crossover design, 7 endurance- trained subjects cycled for 120 minutes at approximately 63% of peak power output, followed by a ‘‘performance cycle’’ where subjects expended 7 kJ/(kg body weight) by pedaling as fast as possible. Trials were conducted on 4 separate occasions, with subjects given (a) a placebo before and during training, (b) a placebo 30 minutes before training and then a carbohydrate beverage every 15 minutes throughout exercise, (c) a carbohydrate beverage 30 minutes before training and then a placebo during exercise, or (d) a carbohydrate beverage both before and every 15 minutes during exercise. The study was carried out in a double- blind fashion with trials performed in random order. Consistent with previous research, results showed no evidence of impaired fat oxidation associated with consumption of carbohydrate either before or during exercise.

    Taken together, these studies show that during moderate-to-high intensity cardiovascular exercise in a fasted state—and for endurance-trained individuals regardless of training intensity— significantly more fat is broken down than that the body can use for fuel. Free fatty acids that are not oxidized ultimately become re-esterified in adipose tissue, nullifying any lipolytic benefits afforded by pre-exercise fasting.

    It should also be noted that consumption of food before training increases the thermic effect of exercise. Lee et al. (19) compared the lipolytic effects of an exercise bout in either a fasted state or after consumption of a glucose/milk (GM) beverage. In a crossover design, 4 experimental conditions were studied: low-intensity long duration exercise with GM, low-intensity long duration exercise without GM, high- intensity short duration exercise with GM, and high-intensity short duration exercise without GM. Subjects were 10 male college students who performed all 4 exercise bouts in random order on the same day. Results showed that ingestion of the GM beverage resulted in a significantly greater excess postexercise oxygen consumption compared with exercise performed in a fasted state in both high- and low- intensity bouts. Other studies have produced similar findings, indicating a clear thermogenic advantage associated with pre-exercise food intake (7,11).

    The location of adipose tissue mobilized during training must also be taken into account here. During low-to- moderate intensity training performed at a steady state, the contribution of fat as a fuel source equates to approxi- mately 40–60% of total energy expen- diture (30). However, in untrained subjects, only about 50–70% of this fat is derived from plasma Free fatty acids; the balance comes from intra- muscular triglycerides (IMTG) (30).
    IMTG are stored as lipid droplets in the sarcoplasm near the mitochondria (2), with the potential to provide approximately two-thirds the available energy of muscle glycogen (32). Similar to muscle glycogen, IMTG can only be oxidized locally within the muscle. It is estimated that IMTG stores are approximately 3 times greater in type I versus type II muscle fibers (8,21,31), and lipolysis of these stores are max- imally stimulated when exercising at 65%V_o2max(24).

    The body increases IMTG stores with consistent endurance training, which results in a greater IMTG utilization for more experienced trainees (12,16,22,31). It is estimated that nonplasma fatty acid utilization during endurance exercise is approximately twice that for trained versus untrained individuals (24,32). Hurley et al. (17) reported that the contribution of IMTG stores in trained individuals equated to approximately 80% of the total body fat utilization during 120 minutes of moderate- intensity endurance training.
    The important point here is that IMTG stores have no bearing on health and/or appearance; it is the subcutaneous fat stored in adipose tissue that influences body composition. Consequently, the actual fat burning effects of any fitness strategy intended to increase fat oxida- tion must be taken in the context of the specific adipose deposits providing energy during exercise.

    Another factor that must be considered when training in a fasted state is its impact on proteolysis. Lemon and Mullin (20) found that nitrogen losses were more than doubled when training while glycogen depleted compared with glycogen loaded. This resulted in a protein loss estimated at 10.4% of the total caloric cost of exercise after 1hourofcyclingat61%V_o2max.This would suggest that performing cardio- vascular exercise while fasting might not be advisable for those seeking to maximize muscle mass.

    Finally, the effect of fasting on energy levels during exercise ultimately has an effect on fat burning. Training early in the morning on an empty stomach makes it very difficult for an individual to train at even a moderate level of intensity. Attempting to engage in a HIIT style routine in a hypoglycemic state almost certainly will impair performance (33). Studies show that a pre-exercise meal allows an individual to train more intensely compared with exercise while fasting (25). The net result is that a greater number of calories are burned both during and after physicalactivity,heightening fat loss.

    In conclusion, the literature does not support the efficacy of training early in the morning on an empty stomach as a tactic to reduce body fat. At best, the net effect on fat loss associated with such an approach will be no better than training after meal consumption, and quite possibly, it would produce inferior results. Moreover, given that training with depleted glycogen levels has been shown to increase proteolysis, the strategy has potential detrimental effects for those concerned with muscle strength and hypertrophy. “

    Does
    Cardio After an Overnight Fast Maximize Fat Loss? : Strength & Conditioning Journal

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    covertking is offline New Member
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    interesting reading, ive always found that if i do more than 30 minutes on a fasted stomach i feel flat later in the day, but that is a on low calorie diet.

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    For every study you post that says "fasted cardio is bad" I could counter with plenty of studies saying "fasted cardio is good" showing all the benefits in regards to fat burner, but studies are nothing more than STUDIES...what make sense on paper doesn't always pan out in the real world. I KNOW that fasted cardio works for me and most of my clients I train as I've experienced the results 1st hand so you can keep your "fasted cardio is bad" studies!

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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    Yeah... 40 minutes at least for me. I do 45 to an hour. Unless I'm beat, least I've done is 30 minutes.
    45-60 for me as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sfla80 View Post
    Is 20 mins on stepper worth it? I'm not a big cardio guy. Bores the shit out of me like most I guess. But I've been good. I'm trying to add time as I get into it. But right now consistent 20 mins.
    After 20 mins you're pretty much just warmed up. At low-moderate intensity, 20 mins simply isn't enough time to burn any significant amount of calories/bodyfat. If you can only do 20 mins (whether that be a time limitation, or simply psychological), stick with high intensity / HIIT - which I wouldn't recommend doing fasted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M302_Imola View Post
    For every study you post that says "fasted cardio is bad" I could counter with plenty of studies saying "fasted cardio is good" showing all the benefits in regards to fat burner, but studies are nothing more than STUDIES...what make sense on paper doesn't always pan out in the real world. I KNOW that fasted cardio works for me and most of my clients I train as I've experienced the results 1st hand so you can keep your "fasted cardio is bad" studies!
    This is so true about ALL fitness ideas.

    The real key to living lean is to find what works for you and stick with it.

    For me 15-20 minutes of sprints (:30 on :30 off) works best and there is no way I can be effective at pretty much anything "fasted"

    I'd rather have a sprinters body than that of a marathoner. That's just me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evander87 View Post

    This is so true about ALL fitness ideas.

    The real key to living lean is to find what works for you and stick with it.

    For me 15-20 minutes of sprints (:30 on :30 off) works best and there is no way I can be effective at pretty much anything "fasted"

    I'd rather have a sprinters body than that of a marathoner. That's just me.
    True true

  30. #30
    armyranger516862006's Avatar
    armyranger516862006 is offline Associate Member
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    So pretty much it's what works best for you. I am currently following the fasted state low intensity cardio and feel even more energized through out the day. I am eating breakfast directly after. Oatmeal, fruit and some eggs. I am doing and feeling really good! Thanks everyone for your input.

  31. #31
    M302_Imola's Avatar
    M302_Imola is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by evander87 View Post
    This is so true about ALL fitness ideas.

    The real key to living lean is to find what works for you and stick with it.

    I'd rather have a sprinters body than that of a marathoner. That's just me.
    I'm with ya brother!

  32. #32
    TattedZach's Avatar
    TattedZach is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by M302_Imola

    I'm with ya brother!
    I second that!

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