Advice needed on what to take for more strength for Rock climbing.

[Sachak]

I want to get some info on what to take for my current sport, Rock climbing as I want to compete next year.

I'm a 30 year old male
1.67m tall
68 - 69kg
14 - 15% body fat (Guesstimate from the chart)

I have never taken a steroid before so I would like some advice.

I used to gym 5 days a week consistently from the age of 16 to the age of 18, age 24 I started gyming again for a year or so. I played allot of tennis in school and was very sporty, when I was younger I did allot of surfing so I have an athletic body with descent muscle definition.
Now I do Rock climbing with my gf, We want to compete next year, We train indoors 2 - 3 times a week very hard from 18:30 - 21:45 sometimes 22:00 we train outdoors on weekends the entire day.

My goal is to to get very strong hard muscle with a low body fat % I'm thinking 8 - 10%, Basically I need a good power to weight ratio to be able to pull myself up to the top of a climb without taking constant breaks.

I was thinking of going on a Winstrol coarse with a PCT afterward, I have read bad things about the side effects and my knowledge of any type of steroids is very limited, Please could any knowledgeable people help me as I don't want to do something I will regret.


Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[jesse4466]

If you never cycled before there are threads you can have a look at to guide you here. I would read as much as you can on them. As my own research explained, test e alone is best first cycle. I'm on week 8 myself, 500mg week. Using 500iu of HCG per week and AI .5 EOD. 12 week long cycle. Then pct - nolva and clomid.

No matter what sport or goals, this seems to be the most advised first cycle if you never cycled before. I am new as well, so I suggest you just read as much as you can and ask specific questions after reading and learning. I read everything I could for a few months and got my nutrition in order before hand. Also blood work before during and after to make sure body is healthy for cycle.

Read and learn best you can before jumping into it to avoid mistakes... It's a journey once you are on cycle, and you want it to be enjoyable not painful or regretful. So plan it well by reading a lot first and doing the homework.

[Times Roman]

let me state the obvious

body weight and gravity are not good mates. so what are you, 5'2" or something like that? And you weigh about what, 150lbs?

Instead of opening up the Pandora's Box with steroids, I'd suggest a solid nutrition plan and lose some weight. Even ten or fifteen pound loss would improve your strength to weight ratio, and your lung to weight ratio, and in theory, improve your endurance.

By doing this instead of drugs, you can avoid the following headaches:

subjecting your body to drugs
worrying about AI
worrying about PCT
worrying about sexual side effects

when I ran, it was all about weight loss and endurance. I imagine it's the same with what you do.

Get a good nutrition plan going, lose the weight, and reap the benefits that way.

Good luck!
---Roman

[Sachak]

at - Times Roman

I am 5'47'' so not as short as you stated and weigh 68kg (150lbs). loosing 15 pounds (6.8kg) would be hectic, I might look like a stick at that weight, not really wanting that. I would prefer to put on more lean muscle and get my body fat down, I would imagine if I did that my weight wouldn't change too much as I would have more muscle but less fat?

I am quite a skinny guy as is, by no means am I over weight, I think there might be some confusion with this?

The reason I want to possibly go on a cycle is to get allot more endurance and stamina to push through a hard climb, currently on a hard climb I need to take breaks too often as I go up, I train extremely hard and yet this is still happening, I want to kick start the process of what would otherwise me a couple years of training to do the type of grade climbs I am wanting to do in one clean go.

[RangerDanger830]

Roman mentioned the possible issues that occur with you cycling now but to be more specific I would like to add injury to that list. Your tendons and ligaments strengthen and even grow in size a little bit in a similar way to muscles. However, tendons and ligaments grow in strength much much slower than muscles.

Having said that I now need to tell you that at your body size a cycle of AAS could easily net you a massive gain in muscle in a short period of time given your diet and training are adequate. With endurance athletes I find typically do not eat enough when crossing over to the dark side and trying to bulk up for the first time. Your diet is the key to strength gains for now.

Let's say you ignore our advice and do the cycle, and you make some good gains. Your muscles will have gone up in strength drastically while your tendons and ligaments will be unable to keep up. This means you will end up lifting weight that your muscles can handle but the rest of your connecting tissue probably can't. In my experience you do not always get a warning that you are overtraining, most of my injuries occurred out of the blue when I felt fine with my workout.

If you want to become a better rock climber I would say wait on steroids. What you need to do though is make yourself a long term meal plan and make lifestyle changes that will ensure you eat enough and of the right things. Then, do not neglect your pull-ups and forearm exercises. Use your legs when you climb and for God's sake do not use gloves or straps that will inevitably hinder your forearm strength gains.

[Sachak]

Roman mentioned the possible issues that occur with you cycling now but to be more specific I would like to add injury to that list. Your tendons and ligaments strengthen and even grow in size a little bit in a similar way to muscles. However, tendons and ligaments grow in strength much much slower than muscles.

Having said that I now need to tell you that at your body size a cycle of AAS could easily net you a massive gain in muscle in a short period of time given your diet and training are adequate. With endurance athletes I find typically do not eat enough when crossing over to the dark side and trying to bulk up for the first time. Your diet is the key to strength gains for now.

Let's say you ignore our advice and do the cycle, and you make some good gains. Your muscles will have gone up in strength drastically while your tendons and ligaments will be unable to keep up. This means you will end up lifting weight that your muscles can handle but the rest of your connecting tissue probably can't. In my experience you do not always get a warning that you are overtraining, most of my injuries occurred out of the blue when I felt fine with my workout.

If you want to become a better rock climber I would say wait on steroids. What you need to do though is make yourself a long term meal plan and make lifestyle changes that will ensure you eat enough and of the right things. Then, do not neglect your pull-ups and forearm exercises. Use your legs when you climb and for God's sake do not use gloves or straps that will inevitably hinder your forearm strength gains.

That is a very good point, I never took my tendons into consideration, when I read up on side effects of winstrol for instance I did see that it caused joint pains due to rubbing of tendons which is already something that put me off taking the stuff. By the way the last thing I want to do is ignore your advice.

I don't lift any weights at all, I purely workout by doing actual climbs and doing normal pull ups and finger pull ups, Can't use gloves for rock climbing, have to climb barehanded as you need the feeling in your hands.

If I were to stick to my current training regime (which is as I stated, 2 - 3 times during the week and then the weekend, mostly Sundays but allot of the times we go Saturdays as well.) and I went and took a mild cycle of say Anavar 40mg per day and worked my way up to 80mg per day over a 55 day period, would that cause drastic muscle strengthening which could lead to a tendon or joint injury.
Basically I don't want to bulk at all, I just want to get a bit stronger and lean out a bit more, I just want that extra stamina to push through the climb.

My diet at the moment probably isn't that great, but I mostly stay away from Sugars, I eat a descent amount of veggies, and eat plenty meat and very little carbs, This diet alone made me loose 4kg.

Are you basically saying that, I should just change my diet and train harder and then later on take steroids or stay away from steroids all together? I don't know how I would train harder, the skin on my hands would peel off if I had to put more than 5 days a week into rock climbing. My body needs to recover as I train like an animal during the week and on the weekends we go onto real rock face and do the climbs we have set as our goals for that week.

[Sachak]

Hmmmm I just read this article about the affects of anabolic steroids on Tendons: I would post it up for you to read but I don't have 25 posts to my name yet.

After reading that I don't think this is a great idea unless there is a type of steroid that has good tendon reparable properties.

[RangerDanger830]

There are drugs to take, such as TB500, that repair damaged tissues according to some of the more experienced member here. I have never taken any and I would not take AAS just yet so as to avoid the need for them.

At your body size I would venture to say even a mild anavar cycle would produce a substantial amount of gains considering you took it with test like most recommend. If I were in your shoes I would eat a diet conducive to gaining muscle. The larger and more dense your muscles are, the easier climbing will be as long as you continue to train for lactic acid toleration, or endurance.

Just increase your carbs since you seem active and keep with the high protein and low fat diet you have been on and you will see muscle growth. I get the impression you are wanting to staying at a normal stature so as not to hinder endurance. Do not be afraid of gains, as long as you have a well-rounded training regimen then your endurance should not suffer.

I would like to add that if you want to do steroids, I will not tell you that you cannot. With AAS there is a lot of weighing the risks versus the benefits. In your particular situation the risks are higher than normal due to your lack of muscle mass. If you think the benefits are worth the risk of injury then I see no other real concerns with doing a mild cycle.

[Times Roman]

at - Times Roman

I am 5'47'' so not as short as you stated and weigh 68kg (150lbs). loosing 15 pounds (6.8kg) would be hectic, I might look like a stick at that weight, not really wanting that. I would prefer to put on more lean muscle and get my body fat down, I would imagine if I did that my weight wouldn't change too much as I would have more muscle but less fat?

I am quite a skinny guy as is, by no means am I over weight, I think there might be some confusion with this?

The reason I want to possibly go on a cycle is to get allot more endurance and stamina to push through a hard climb, currently on a hard climb I need to take breaks too often as I go up, I train extremely hard and yet this is still happening, I want to kick start the process of what would otherwise me a couple years of training to do the type of grade climbs I am wanting to do in one clean go.

Let me just mention and clarify by using myself as an example.

I was a competitive distance runner, any where between 10k's and marathons. I was/am six foot even and at the time, only 160 pounds. Only ten pounds more than you now, yet a full 8 inches taller. I had the stamina (it felt like) that of a horse. I would run the five miles daily to the rock quarry to go swimming, and keep up with my mates that were on ten speeds. Half mile diameter "lake" so a full mile of swimming daily, then another 5 miles back to the compound. I was able to do all this BECAUSE my lung to weight ratio was so high.

So you dropping the ten or fifteen pounds as I suggested, if you are truly passionate about your sport, is not an unreasonable suggestion.

Triathletes are naturally thin, as are marathoners. And long distance cyclists.

If you want all day endurance, start with your lung to weight ratio. And as you lose the weight, you become stronger on a per pound basis.

Just my .02

---Roman

[Sachak]

Ok I have no objections to that and to be perfectly honest with you I would actually prefer to not put any chemicals in my body, a friend of mine planted the steroid seed in my mind and so I did research and found this site and decided to ask questions.

If I were to go with your suggestion and loose 6 - 7kg of weight, how would I go about doing that? As that is actually quite a substantial amount of weight to loose if your not over weight. What sort of meal plan would you recommend? I don't want to eat carbs as that is a big contribution to putting on weight, please give me a suggestion of something to loose that much weight as I think it would help me a shit load.

If I put a 2kg weights or even 1kg weighs on my wrists or ankles and try climb it makes a MASSIVE difference, so loosing 6 - 7kg would make me bounce up a climb lol, I think this is a great suggestion I just don't know how to loose that much weight. When I weighed 72kg I was able to drop to 68kg by just cutting down on sugar and carbs (Tim Noaks diet) but going lower than that I am not sure how to do.

[Times Roman]

Ok I have no objections to that and to be perfectly honest with you I would actually prefer to not put any chemicals in my body, a friend of mine planted the steroid seed in my mind and so I did research and found this site and decided to ask questions.

If I were to go with your suggestion and loose 6 - 7kg of weight, how would I go about doing that? As that is actually quite a substantial amount of weight to loose if your not over weight. What sort of meal plan would you recommend? I don't want to eat carbs as that is a big contribution to putting on weight, please give me a suggestion of something to loose that much weight as I think it would help me a shit load.

If I put a 2kg weights or even 1kg weighs on my wrists or ankles and try climb it makes a MASSIVE difference, so loosing 6 - 7kg would make me bounce up a climb lol, I think this is a great suggestion I just don't know how to loose that much weight. When I weighed 72kg I was able to drop to 68kg by just cutting down on sugar and carbs (Tim Noaks diet) but going lower than that I am not sure how to do.

There you go. I think you are starting to get the idea. Your physique needs to compliment your sport. Rock climbers need a balance between strength and endurance that big bulky guys simply do not possess. Maybe the genetic freaks, but regular guys? No.

To lose weight, you need a good grasp of nutrition, and a good dose of cardio.

First things first. You need a strategic nutrition plan, which I can provide right now.

Your TDEE is about 2,500 calories. You also carry around 128 pounds of lean body mass. To calculate your minimum required protein intake (to prevent catabolism) you will need to consume about 190 grams of protein per day.

To lose weight, you need to be in a caloric deficiency. Subtract 500 cals from your TDEE, and your target caloric intake is something like 2000 cals/day. I'm assuming a moderate activity level. You may be a bit higher, which will, using this plan, make losing the weight just a tad bit easier.

I saw your comment about carbs. Carbs are not the enemy! It is the fuel that drives your ability to exercise intensely. Just make sure the carbs you do end up eating are "smart" carbs. For instance, when it comes to simple carbs, I only eat fruit. When it comes to complex carbs, I stick to oats and veggies. Maybe an occasional yam. Avoid processed food. Chosoe whole nutritious food instead. Drink water only. Avoid bread, pasta, anything made from white flour, white rice (brown is better, but still not crazy about it). The trick is to learn what you can and cannot eat. It's a process.

Back to your strategic nutritional plan. Using a 40/40/20 macro split, your 2,000 cals/day will consist of 198 grams of protein (still above the minimum), the same for carbs, and only 44 grams of fat.

The next step is to develop a tactical nutrition plan to meet your strategic goals. Go to the nutrition section, and post up what you eat on a daily basis. include macros per meal and macros per day. You will get coached/critiqued which will help you learn what you can and cannot eat.

Being in a caloric deficiency like this will temporarily reduce your strength. This is natural. When you have an event you are going to participate in, because of the endurance aspect, you need to carbo load about 48 hours before hand, and ignore your normal routine of what you eat in the kitchen. I'm not sure if you do this or not, but it will give you the endurance you need for your event.

On top of what ever other training you do, maybe get a cardio monitor and walk/jog around the park every other night for a minimum 40 minutes between 50% and 80% of your max heart rate (220 - "your age" = max heart rate). Instead of keeping your heart rate constant during this period, modulate it between the min and max rates, which will improve the cardio and fat burning aspect of this exercise.

If you follow this, over time, you will lose the weight.

There are many tricks to maintain that "full" feeling you need to be able to maintain your plan in the long term. Things like eating psyllium husk fiber prior to eating a meal (it expands to 10x it's regular volume when it comes in contact with moisture). There are many more.

Here is a simple strategic nutrition plan for you:

[Sachak]

Thanks for all this info, I really appreciate it, its 02:30am here so I am going to head off to sleep now as I have a long day of climbing ahead of me in a few hours time, I will read through this properly to make sense of it all after climbing.

Thanks again Times Roman, the effort you have put into this is very much appreciated and I will definitely give it a proper try, hopefully I can drop the 6 - 7kg.

[climberV13]

I know I'm a month or two late here, but I was searching for related threads before I posted one of my own.

First of all, when you say you want to compete, at what level are you looking at? Give your physique and lack of knowledge about climbing, I'm guessing that you've been climbing for at most a year. At this point, Times Roman is correct, lose weight, and don't even think of trying to add bulk on.

I'm a little taller than you, (1.71 m) and weigh less than you (61 kg); if you're hoping to compete at the highest levels (first of all, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you're too late to the game to stand a chance at anything more intense than a local circuit) you'll have to cut down to 56-58 kilos at the most. Remember, climbing is all about strength to weight, the less weight to hold up, the easier it is. That being said, with how long you've been climbing, your time is going to best be spent learning movement and technique, I very much doubt that its the physical components of climbing that's holding you back right now. Buy "The Rock Climber's Training Manual" and "Gimme Kraft" read the first and use the exercises listed in the second; I promise it will do much more for your climbing than steroids will at this point.

Qualifications: 2 time US National Team member, World Cup competitor, currently one of Team USA coaches, consistently boulders 8B and redpoints 8B+

[ScotchGuard02]

In my experience with climbing the critical component was the grip to body weight ratio. When I climbing a lot I stood 5'11" tall and weighed 167lbs. My hand strength to body weight ratio was really good. I could stick to the rock like a spider for a long time. When I started cycling AAS about 8 years ago my body weight went to 200lbs. I got significantly stronger but my hand strength didn't increase at the same rate. I found that I couldn't stay on the rock for any duration of time because my forearms and hands would give out much faster than my muscles. Just about any oral steroids need to be accompanied by exogenous Testosterone injections. Trying to balance AAS, diet, increase in body weight is making thing far more complex than necessary. I don't think you need steroids to be a world class climber. You can go a long way with diet and exercise.