Training and varying levels of soreness

[RangerDanger830]

So as not to jack leanmachine's thread I have been encountering what seems to be a peculiar experience with my training lately. This quote by Doc got me thinking about it...

A muscle need not be fully recovered before working it out again. In fact, in many circumstances it's advisable to NOT let the muscle fully recover before working it out again.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with this just yet, I need more data to make a more informed decision.

I often do the 3 days on and 1 day off routine. My legs are usually worked out in the first day here recently. I just started doing this and I have been enjoying it. I always do a static set of exercises with a static amount of reps and sets, although I do raise the weight from time to time to account for growth. I also maintain a set amount of rest breaks between each set depending on the exercise.

I find that every time I work out a muscle group it will heal just in time to work it out again. I always get sore from my workouts and it is always roughly the same amount of soreness in each muscle group from one four day routine to the next.

However, every now and then, such as this last weekend, I find myself out of town and not in the gym. This last time I ended up doing my three days in the gym and taking 3 days off instead of the usual 1.

So come leg day again (yesterday) I had a nice couple of days to recover. I worked out my legs. It is important to note that my sets, reps, weight, and rest period did not change. The workout was essentially as close to last week's workout that I could possibly do.

Even though my workout was essentially the same I woke up today so much more sore than usual. This always seems to happen when I take long breaks off, long for me being 2 or 3 days. I could barely walk sore.

So I conclude one of two things happened. The most likely scenario being I did indeed work out more intensely than I realized and am just super sore. Or the least likely conclusion is that I took too much time off and my body was in a weakened state. I find the second one highly unlikely though.

Does anyone have any other conclusions they could draw from this?

[Times Roman]

Riddle me this.

What does "fully recovered" mean?

Aside from that, if you properly work out a muscle group more than twice a week, it's too much. If you are not working it out at least once a week, it's not enough.

What do you think?

[kelkel]

Door #1. Try working out less and upping the intensity like you feel you may have done. See how it goes for a period of time, then assess it.

[Joco71]

Good idea kelkel! I just wonder if when Ranger said he healed for a longer amount of time and felt soreness elevated. If training like that will build muscle tissue more efficiently.( Break muscles down hard long enough to fully heal ) rinse repeat? Thank you

[kelkel]

Gotta find what works for each individual. I prefer HIT style training. Brief but extremely intense utilizing drop sets, rest pause, etc. Remember, when fully recovered it simply makes sense that you'll then be able to train more effectively. We grow when resting and feeding.

[Joco71]

Thanks!

[Docd187123]

So as not to jack leanmachine's thread I have been encountering what seems to be a peculiar experience with my training lately. This quote by Doc got me thinking about it...



I am not saying I agree or disagree with this just yet, I need more data to make a more informed decision.

I often do the 3 days on and 1 day off routine. My legs are usually worked out in the first day here recently. I just started doing this and I have been enjoying it. I always do a static set of exercises with a static amount of reps and sets, although I do raise the weight from time to time to account for growth. I also maintain a set amount of rest breaks between each set depending on the exercise.

I find that every time I work out a muscle group it will heal just in time to work it out again. I always get sore from my workouts and it is always roughly the same amount of soreness in each muscle group from one four day routine to the next.

However, every now and then, such as this last weekend, I find myself out of town and not in the gym. This last time I ended up doing my three days in the gym and taking 3 days off instead of the usual 1.

So come leg day again (yesterday) I had a nice couple of days to recover. I worked out my legs. It is important to note that my sets, reps, weight, and rest period did not change. The workout was essentially as close to last week's workout that I could possibly do.

Even though my workout was essentially the same I woke up today so much more sore than usual. This always seems to happen when I take long breaks off, long for me being 2 or 3 days. I could barely walk sore.

So I conclude one of two things happened. The most likely scenario being I did indeed work out more intensely than I realized and am just super sore. Or the least likely conclusion is that I took too much time off and my body was in a weakened state. I find the second one highly unlikely though.

Does anyone have any other conclusions they could draw from this?

The body adjusts to the stressors you provide it, ie lifting in this case. Your workouts are static as are the sets and reps so your body has become extremely adapted to this particular workout regimen. It's not that your body was in a weakened state but it could have become 'dis-adapted'.

It could also be due to dietary changes, bad sleep the day/s before the workout, increased physical activity elsewhere, etc. I experience the same thing and it happens regardless of dietary changes or sleeping habits or whatever. I squat 3x per week on Tues, Thurs, Sat. If I miss any one day of squats the next day back in the gym I'll experience some slight soreness from the workout. In my case it's 'dis-adaptation' and I'm guessing it's likely to be in your case as well.

[Docd187123]

Riddle me this.

What does "fully recovered" mean?

Aside from that, if you properly work out a muscle group more than twice a week, it's too much. If you are not working it out at least once a week, it's not enough.

What do you think?

I don't buy into muscles being 'fully recovered' and don't even know how one would quantify that. My quote was in response to someone who mentioned Vince Gironda and how he thought muscles recover after 72hours or so.

What about Oly lifters who squat 6-7days a week or people running GVT or Smolov cycles doing squats sometimes twice a day? They're not doing too much as evidenced by the fact they still make tremendous progress.

[Docd187123]

Gotta find what works for each individual. I prefer HIT style training. Brief but extremely intense utilizing drop sets, rest pause, etc. Remember, when fully recovered it simply makes sense that you'll then be able to train more effectively. We grow when resting and feeding.

As you advance in your training you require a larger and larger stress to create homeostatic disruption and adaptation. In intermediates and advanced/elite athletes this isn't possible in a single workout meaning they cannot create enough stress to drive further adaptation in one workout. They need micro cycles (weeks or months) of cumulative fatigue and each workout simply furthers you from recovery. After a slight deload or back off period the body will super compensate (if done correctly) and you will come back better than ever lol.





I know the pic quality sucks but I took screen shots lol. You can see that working out while not 'fully recovered' can be advantageous as it increases fatigue and allows intermediates and advanced lifters to provide their body with enough stress to drive progress. If these people wait till 'full recovery' they will lose out on valuable progress and won't be able to take the same advantage of
The super composition effect. This is what the Two Factor Model of training is based on and it borrows principles from Hans Seyle's General Adaptation Syndrome.

Advanced trainees in the barbell sports work relatively close to their genetic potentials. The work tolerance of the advanced trainee is quite high, given that the ability of an
athlete to recover from training is itself trainable. However, the training loads the advanced athlete must handle in order to produce an adaptation are also quite high, since the adaptation
that brought the athlete to the advanced stage has already occurred. This level of training volume and intensity is very taxing and requires longer periods of recovery than do
intermediate training loads. Both the loading and the recovery parameters must be applied in more complex and variable ways
and over longer periods of time. When combined, the loading and recovery periods required for successful progress range in duration from a month to several months. For example, we may apply a single week of very heavy training to induce adaptation. That week of training may require three or more
weeks of work at lighter loadings for complete recovery and
improvement to occur.

[marcus300]

Gotta find what works for each individual. I prefer HIT style training. Brief but extremely intense utilizing drop sets, rest pause, etc. Remember, when fully recovered it simply makes sense that you'll then be able to train more effectively. We grow when resting and feeding.

Totally agree with you Kel, ive noticed if I train when I am not fully recovered my strength isn't what it should be my motivation slightly drops and I just cant push the intensity like I would do when I am training a recovered body. You grow when your not in the gym and recovery is a major part of building new tissue. I think you got to find out what works for you and some guys could workout daily because they aren't in my option training hard enough in the first place because if they did it would be impossible to train again, I know it would be impossible for me to train with the exact intensity if I am not fully recovered.

Its simple, guys should try it both ways and see which is better for them, we are not all built the same and we all don't train the same with the same intensity. A hard intense workout for some would kill most guys for a full week because they just not use to that level.

Check out this video from the master of mass

[RangerDanger830]

Riddle me this.

What does "fully recovered" mean?

Aside from that, if you properly work out a muscle group more than twice a week, it's too much. If you are not working it out at least once a week, it's not enough.

What do you think?

I usually work out each muscle group 2x a week. I couldn't imagine doing it more than that unless I lowered the intensity of my workouts.

When I work out I always end up sore the next day. I can say that when I refer to myself as being fully recovered, which is in no means scientifically accurate, I usually mean that when I do exercises with that particular muscle I will no longer feel any soreness and fatigue from my previous workout with that muscle.

You know when you don't necessarily feel sore but once you start training something you can tell it is still a little fatigued?

The body adjusts to the stressors you provide it, ie lifting in this case. Your workouts are static as are the sets and reps so your body has become extremely adapted to this particular workout regimen. It's not that your body was in a weakened state but it could have become 'dis-adapted'.

It could also be due to dietary changes, bad sleep the day/s before the workout, increased physical activity elsewhere, etc. I experience the same thing and it happens regardless of dietary changes or sleeping habits or whatever. I squat 3x per week on Tues, Thurs, Sat. If I miss any one day of squats the next day back in the gym I'll experience some slight soreness from the workout. In my case it's 'dis-adaptation' and I'm guessing it's likely to be in your case as well.

My diet and living habits do not change much so I am inclined to think it was this de-adaptation coupled with a slightly higher intensity.

I am going to give this a try and see how my body changes. I feel as if I am more sore then I must have put more of a strain on my muscles. This means I could use this to my advantage and increase my gains if I ensure I am adequately rested. I think my lack of severe soreness was most likely due to a lower level of intensity in my workouts because I was working them out more commonly.

[RangerDanger830]

I would die if I did squats 3x a week, that is something that would take me awhile to work into.

[Docd187123]

I would die if I did squats 3x a week, that is something that would take me awhile to work into.

You'd be surprised at how quickly you'd adapt to it lol .

[RangerDanger830]

You'd be surprised at how quickly you'd adapt to it lol .

Surely you don't give it 100% effort when doing them do you?

[Docd187123]

Surely you don't give it 100% effort when doing them do you?

I'm using linear progress so yes, I'm increasing my maxes and work set weights constantly. Tuesday and Saturday are my heavy days and Thursdays I reduce intensity and volume a bit and make it an active recovery day.