Gaining leg mass with bad genetics

[Rjay]

First off I dont have 'bad genetics' by any means I actually have a really good physique but that being said I gain mass and strength WAY easier in my upper body as opposed to legs possibly due to training when I was younger and dumb. Im trying to gain mass but I cant see myself getting any more then 5 pounds of clean upper body muscle at this point for my frame. I do still have a lot of untapped mass in my legs but no matter what I can't seem to get them to grow. I eat tons of calories and understand my body fairly well in terms of caloric needs, Ive tried training legs once a week or even twice a week with minimal results. Anyone have any suggestions for me? Id still like to gain another 15lbs MINIMUM over the next year

[marcus300]

What is your leg routine?
what are your stats?

[Rjay]

Im currently 5'8 150lbs. Leg day looks like:

2 warmup sets 4 working sets squats 8-10 reps
3 sets deadlifts 6-8 reps

3sets leg extension 10-12 reps
superset with
3sets leg curls 10-12 reps

Roughly 2 min breaks for squats and deadlifts

[Khazima]

Try strength training for a while, jump on a strength program like canditos 6 week program or wendler 531, I'm the same size as you and that's what my legs have responded best to.

[hawk14dl]

You squat and deadlift in the same day?

Try squatting then supplement with leg press. Close that out with extensions and curls. Don't forget calves in there somewhere

Deads aren't really a leg exercise. devote leg day to actual leg workouts and push harder

[Khazima]

You squat and deadlift in the same day?

Try squatting then supplement with leg press. Close that out with extensions and curls. Don't forget calves in there somewhere

Deads aren't really a leg exercise. devote leg day to actual leg workouts and push harder

Other way around, they're not really a back exercise. The dynamic contraction occurs in the legs and Glutes. Your back is only involved as a static contraction.

Unless you're talking about the lower back. Which i count as part of the lower body, for my lower body workouts.

[marcus300]

Im currently 5'8 150lbs. Leg day looks like:

2 warmup sets 4 working sets squats 8-10 reps
3 sets deadlifts 6-8 reps

3sets leg extension 10-12 reps
superset with
3sets leg curls 10-12 reps

Roughly 2 min breaks for squats and deadlifts

You need to drop the deadlifts and keep them with your back workout,
I would add with your squats, leg ext and leg curls either leg press or hack squats,
I think one the of the most important thing is to learn to train them correctly, to me it sounds like your just going through the motions of doing a certain amount of reps and sets. What you need to do is get seriously motivated and put some overload into your leg routine and increase the intensity. when your doing your working set you are probably thinking you have another 3 working sets to do so you don't give it 100% and you waste reps and sets but what you should be doing is any working set train like irts your last set and your life depended on it. Put some effort into it and overload your muscle so they have no choice but to grow.

Just keep pushing and dont go through the motions,

[marcus300]

Other way around, they're not really a back exercise. The dynamic contraction occurs in the legs and Glutes. Your back is only involved as a static contraction.

Unless you're talking about the lower back. Which i count as part of the lower body, for my lower body workouts.

Dead lifts are for working the lower back, even though other areas get involved its main purpose is to build the lower back.

[Times Roman]

I have mainly Type 1 muscle fiber (aerobic) in my legs. Great for distance running, not great for body building. (this statement is based on my past performance as a runner and observations as a body builder). Anyways, they do grow slowly. Very slowly. Probably about 1/2 or 1/3 as much as my upper body.


What Marcus said above, plus just be patient. You must allow for the passage of time. Over the years, your legs will respond. But you must be dedicated. And don't forget to eat the right amount of protein and calories.

[Rjay]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Ya I should put some more intensity in I can own up to that, do you guys recommend once or twice a week?

[marcus300]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Ya I should put some more intensity in I can own up to that, do you guys recommend once or twice a week?

What ever works for you but I would probably go with once per week for the next 3 months and monitor your progress and if you feel nothing is happening change your approach. You have to put some serious effort into your workout especially if its a body part what is stubborn and hard to respond. Intensity and overload is the key to stimulate growth but don't ever just go through the motions. If you ever come out of the gym able to walk straight and never think about your legs again that day then your not training hard enough, leg day your legs should be like jelly.

If things don't change over a set period of time and your training really hard and intense and your cals are high and your still not getting growth then change things around try a different approach but at this stage I would go back to basic's and drop the supersets and just go with straight sets but make them count every rep and every set train to your max and get some aggression in there.

[uhit]

I personally have 2 leg days a week....

But off-season (summer time) I ramp it upto 3.

As long as you squat ATG you should induce adequate hypertrophy into your quads, hamstrings and glutes

[Docd187123]

Dead lifts are for working the lower back, even though other areas get involved its main purpose is to build the lower back.

The force that makes the bar go up is generated by the muscles that extend the knees and the hips, and this force is transferred up the rigid spine, across the scapulas to the arms and down to the bar.The weight leaves the floor when the quadriceps extend the knees, but for this to happen the hamstrings and glutes must anchor the hip angle in its position. The hamstrings pull down on the pelvis from below, and the glutes hold it from the top of the iliac crest; if the back stays flat this allows the force to travel up the rigid back held at a constant angle while the quads push the floor. This knee extension can then provide the initial drive off the ground. If the hamstrings and glutes fail to hold their position during this initial push, the quads don’t contribute to the movement of the weight since they straightened out the knee without any movement of the load. When this happens, you just shove your butt up in the air without the quads lifting any of the weight. When the lift is done correctly, though, the hip angle opens only very slightly as the bar rises to the knees, and the back angle—the angle the torso makes with the floor—stays constant. During this process, the quads move the weight, the glutes and hamstrings hold the hips down, and the flat back transfers this force up to the shoulder blades and down the arms to the bar. If the knees extend without moving the bar (pushing the hips up into the air), the movement becomes a stiff- legged deadlift, with the glutes and hamstrings doing the work without the help of the quads.

The main muscles movers of this lift are the quads, hamstrings, and glutes and the low back/erector spinae muscles take over to complete the opening of the hips. It's as much of a leg exercise as it is a low back exercise.

[marcus300]

The main muscles movers of this lift are the quads, hamstrings, and glutes and the low back/erector spinae muscles take over to complete the opening of the hips. It's as much of a leg exercise as it is a low back exercise.

I tend to look at what works for me and the majority and not what some book or study states but if you are getting results with deads on leg day you carry on.

But for someone who is struggling with leg development I would stick with movements what target the quads directly IMHO. I also never do deads from the floor or to the floor because it targets the glutes and legs which puts the back in a dangerous position IMHO ( Dorian style) so I keep deads purely for the lower back and use them in a fashion what builds the most tissue for that area.

[jimmyinkedup]

What you need to do is get seriously motivated and put some overload into your leg routine and increase the intensity. when your doing your working set you are probably thinking you have another 3 working sets to do so you don't give it 100% and you waste reps and sets but what you should be doing is any working set train like irts your last set and your life depended on it. Put some effort into it and overload your muscle so they have no choice but to grow.

Just keep pushing and dont go through the motions,

This is it. You need to crush them. Most people dont realize what HIT is until someone pushes them to really do it. What you think is your all often really isnt. You need to push past failure. HIT like Dorian or Mentzer and Marcus often posts about here is often the key when it comes to issues like you are experiencing.

[hawk14dl]

If you have enough left in your legs after squats, to do deads, you didn't put enough effort in your squats.

Op, 1 dedicated leg day. Put deads in on back day. Then you get 2 leg workouts, if that's how you want to look at it.

[kelkel]

Read Marcus's Diary in the lounge from start to finish. It'll teach you motivation, mental preparation and HIT techniques. It's simply an overall great thread.

[Docd187123]

If you have enough left in your legs after squats, to do deads, you didn't put enough effort in your squats.

Op, 1 dedicated leg day. Put deads in on back day. Then you get 2 leg workouts, if that's how you want to look at it.

Not according to the plethora of Olympic and power lifters who train both lifts on the same day.

[Docd187123]

I tend to look at what works for me and the majority and not what some book or study states but if you are getting results with deads on leg day you carry on.

So you ignore basic physiology, anatomy, and kinesiology?

But for someone who is struggling with leg development I would stick with movements what target the quads directly IMHO. I also never do deads from the floor or to the floor because it targets the glutes and legs which puts the back in a dangerous position IMHO ( Dorian style) so I keep deads purely for the lower back and use them in a fashion what builds the most tissue for that area.

Yes there are exercises that target the quads more but that doesn't mean deads don't target them or they're not an effective leg exercise. You're missing most of the benefit of deadlifts doing them in that manner. If you want to shortchange your progress carry on.

Proper deadlifts don't put the back in a dangerous position. They in fact strengthen the back against injury. We have people pulling for over 1000lbs and they have some of the strongest and most injury shielded backs of anyone.

[marcus300]

So you ignore what science teaches?



Yes there are exercises that target the quads more but that doesn't mean deads don't target them or they're not an effective leg exercise. You're missing most of the benefit of deadlifts doing them in that manner. If you want to shortchange your progress carry on.

Proper deadlifts don't put the back in a dangerous position. They in fact strengthen the back against injury. We have people pulling for over 1000lbs and they have some of the strongest and most injury shielded backs of anyone.

I wouldn't tell this guy to do deads to increase his leg development, I would tell him to use movements what target that quads directly.

Ive probably done more deads than you have meals in your whole life but I'm not hear for a pissing contest I am trying to help the OP.

I also don't think you fully understand what I am saying but if you feel you can help the OP with deads in his leg development give him your opinion otherwise go and read your books

[marcus300]

Not according to the plethora of Olympic and power lifters who train both lifts on the same day.

lmfao haha your really making yourself look stupid and very augmentative.

What a fool lol ,

I'm out of here ive done my best, kids .......

[Docd187123]

Ive probably done more deads than you have meals in your whole life but I'm not hear for a pissing contest I am trying to help the OP.

Then why display your narcissism if you're only here to help OP.

lmfao haha your really making yourself look stupid and very augmentative.

What a fool lol ,

I'm out of here ive done my best, kids .......

Immaturity at it's finest....I am right, you are wrong, therefor you're a fool. Blah blah blah. Hopefully you spend your time in the gym more constructively than you do your time debating facts.

[Khazima]

This has turned into one of the most common debates of all time.. I have to agree with doc not only because of the physiology aspect but in my personal experience (not that much) Deadlifts do a lot more for my legs than my back, and I more or less count my lower back as part of my lower body (/leg) days.

[Rjay]

Holy sh*t this thread exploded! Ive got a lot to work with now. I know where to come next time I have a question thanks guys

[zempey]

I never recommend deads, my back is fvcked so I can't do them, so I wont recommend them since I don't have experience with them. I would always squat first then leg press, I don't train legs as hard as I used to back in the day, too old and broken. For a while when I was hitting them really hard I would do my first set of presses for 50 continuous reps of 600lbs, add 180lbs and do a set of 30 reps, add 180 do a set 20, add 180 and try for 15, add 180 and try for as many as I could get, usually 8-10. After that I would have to rest for a bit, my legs were like jello.

[AllKindsOGains]

Muscle growth is stimulated when the muscle is taken to complete positive failure, and when the muscle is kept under constant tension. I recommend that if you want hypertrophy, or growth, stop worrying about the weight your lifting and for how many reps. Focus on taking the muscle to complete positive failure. This is why leg press and leg extensions are great options, as they take the form equation out of it and allow you to focus on GIVING EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT. If you want strength, then keep doing your squats and deadlifts. If you want size, then figure out what it means to push past pain go to failure on leg press. Every damn set.

[Khazima]

Muscle growth is stimulated when the muscle is taken to complete positive failure, and when the muscle is kept under constant tension. I recommend that if you want hypertrophy, or growth, stop worrying about the weight your lifting and for how many reps. Focus on taking the muscle to complete positive failure. This is why leg press and leg extensions are great options, as they take the form equation out of it and allow you to focus on GIVING EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT. If you want strength, then keep doing your squats and deadlifts. If you want size, then figure out what it means to push past pain go to failure on leg press. Every damn set.

The leg press is a dangerous exercise if you break down the physiology, think about the position it puts you in. A completely bent over squat with no core stabilisation. The leg extension AKA knee snaps also is not a very safe option, the force is generated directly through your knee, so any moderate weight is going to put a lot of stress of your knee. The squat is all you need to build big legs, other accessories can be great tools but nothing will ever replace squatting to 'true positive failure'.

[Docd187123]

Muscle growth is stimulated when the muscle is taken to complete positive failure, and when the muscle is kept under constant tension. I recommend that if you want hypertrophy, or growth, stop worrying about the weight your lifting and for how many reps. Focus on taking the muscle to complete positive failure.

That's only one way to stimulate muscle growth and to be honest a very inefficient way for most.

This is why leg press and leg extensions are great options, as they take the form equation out of it and allow you to focus on GIVING EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT. If you want strength, then keep doing your squats and deadlifts. If you want size, then figure out what it means to push past pain go to failure on leg press. Every damn set.

The squat is a great lift for both size and strength. Leg presses and extensions are inferior exercises IMO. They can make decent accessory lifts but should not replace squats by any stretch of the imagination.

[AllKindsOGains]

The leg press is a dangerous exercise if you break down the physiology, think about the position it puts you in. A completely bent over squat with no core stabilisation. The leg extension AKA knee snaps also is not a very safe option, the force is generated directly through your knee, so any moderate weight is going to put a lot of stress of your knee. The squat is all you need to build big legs, other accessories can be great tools but nothing will ever replace squatting to 'true positive failure'.

I disagree. The squat requires a large amount of cardiovascular effort (makes you winded) and requires perfect form to be done correctly and safely. Once you start getting to the point of failure, your either going to run out of breath first or your form is going to go to shit. Leg press can be done safely. The notion that only extremely heavy weight will elicit gains is not correct. If you are hitting ranges between 10-15, again I don't actually count the reps, then your not going to be as injury prone.

[AllKindsOGains]

That's only one way to stimulate muscle growth and to be honest a very inefficient way for most.



The squat is a great lift for both size and strength. Leg presses and extensions are inferior exercises IMO. They can make decent accessory lifts but should not replace squats by any stretch of the imagination.

The squat is still a good exercise, but think of it like this. Bench for chest requires the use of other accessory muscles to complete each rep, wheras flyes isolate the pec and can allow you to make that muscle fail completely without "cheating" your way through the set when you become fatigued (aka using other muscles to lift the weight.) This is exactly the same as the squat. It forces you to utilize all your other leg muscles each rep, which makes making your QUADS fail extremely difficult, preventing that muscle group to be completely stimulated. I can guarantee the squat is more dangerous than leg press, as your form will inevitably go to shit when you near failure.

[Docd187123]

The squat is still a good exercise, but think of it like this. Bench for chest requires the use of other accessory muscles to complete each rep, wheras flyes isolate the pec and can allow you to make that muscle fail completely without "cheating" your way through the set when you become fatigued (aka using other muscles to lift the weight.) This is exactly the same as the squat. It forces you to utilize all your other leg muscles each rep, which makes making your QUADS fail extremely difficult, preventing that muscle group to be completely stimulated. I can guarantee the squat is more dangerous than leg press, as your form will inevitably go to shit when you near failure.

It's a good thing you don't need to make a muscle fail completely to elicit a hypertrophic response....

[Docd187123]

I disagree. The squat requires a large amount of cardiovascular effort (makes you winded) and requires perfect form to be done correctly and safely. Once you start getting to the point of failure, your either going to run out of breath first or your form is going to go to shit. Leg press can be done safely. The notion that only extremely heavy weight will elicit gains is not correct. If you are hitting ranges between 10-15, again I don't actually count the reps, then your not going to be as injury prone.

Any exercise can make you winded not just squats. Squats are only a cardiovascular exercise when you use the aerobic energy pathways but the same can be said for ANY lift. If you don't want to work cardio you can limit the reps a bit and use more of the glycolotic energy pathways.

I, as well as most others who are competent in the lifts, can get to a point just shy of failure and still maintain good form. Sure if I'm going for a PR 1RM form will be thrown off but I don't do that on a daily basis.

If you look at the actual figures, more people get injured with the 10-15 rep range than the 3-8 rep range bc you're not as fatigued through the set so one is more injury prone as the reps in a set goes up.

[AllKindsOGains]

It's a good thing you don't need to make a muscle fail completely to elicit a hypertrophic response....

So you're taking the gamble that you do flip the anabolic switch while giving sub-maximum effort vs the guarantee that you will grow when you take the muscle to failure. Almost every pro bodybuilder will tell you that the last few reps of the set are the most important, as they are closest to complete failure and elicit the greatest growth. This is not new.

[AllKindsOGains]

Any exercise can make you winded not just squats. Squats are only a cardiovascular exercise when you use the aerobic energy pathways but the same can be said for ANY lift. If you don't want to work cardio you can limit the reps a bit and use more of the glycolotic energy pathways.

I, as well as most others who are competent in the lifts, can get to a point just shy of failure and still maintain good form. Sure if I'm going for a PR 1RM form will be thrown off but I don't do that on a daily basis.

If you look at the actual figures, more people get injured with the 10-15 rep range than the 3-8 rep range bc you're not as fatigued through the set so one is more injury prone as the reps in a set goes up.

So you get as winded with a set of leg extensions to failure as with squats to failure? No shit exercise will make you out of breath. The trick is not running out of breath before you hit that point. Is that really arguable?

[Docd187123]

So you're taking the gamble that you do flip the anabolic switch while giving sub-maximum effort vs the guarantee that you will grow when you take the muscle to failure. Almost every pro bodybuilder will tell you that the last few reps of the set are the most important, as they are closest to complete failure and elicit the greatest growth. This is not new.

There's nothing to gamble. It's been proven scientifically as well as anecdotally in the millions of lifters around the world. You do not need to go to failure to elicit a hypertrophic response or and anabolic response. Hell, even protein is anabolic on it's own without lifting since it too stimulates MPS.

Most pro bodybuilders rely on trainers bc they aren't experts. This is a poor argument.

If you're interested in learning, here's a quote, and link to the article, by an actual expert in the field.

Intensity
Intensity (i.e., load) has been shown to have a significant impact on muscle hypertrophy and is arguably the most important exercise variable for stimulating muscle growth (42). Intensity is customarily expressed as a percentage of 1RM and equates to the number of repetitions that can be performed with a given weight. Repetitions can be classified into 3 basic ranges: low (1–5), moderate (6–12), and high (15+). Each of these repetition ranges will involve the use of different energy systems and tax the neuromuscular system in different ways, impacting the extent of the hypertrophic response.
The use of high repetitions has generally proven to be inferior to moderate and lower repetition ranges in eliciting increases in muscle hypertrophy (24,71). In the absence of artificially induced ischemia (i.e., occlusion training), a load less than approximately 65% of 1RM is not considered suffi- cient to promote substantial hypertrophy (115). Although such high rep training can bring about significant metabolic stress, the load is inadequate to recruit and fatigue the highest threshold MUs.
Whether low reps or moderate reps evoke a greater hypertrophic response has been a matter of debate, and both produce significant gains in muscle growth (24). However, there is a prevailing belief that a moderate range of approx- imately 6–12 reps optimizes the hypertrophic response (86,89,205).
The anabolic superiority of moderate repetitions has been attributed to factors associated with metabolic stress. Although low repetition sets are carried out almost exclusively by the phosphocreatine system, moderate repetition schemes rely heavily on anaerobic glycolysis (144). This results in a significant buildup of metabolites. Studies of bodybuilding- style exercise routines performed with multiple sets of 6–12 reps show significant postexercise declines in ATP, creatine phosphate, and glycogen, along with marked increases in blood lactate, intramuscular lactate, glucose and glucose- 6-phosphate (37,178). Buildup of these metabolites has been shown to have a significant impact on anabolic processes (96). It is therefore conceivable that there is a maximum threshold for tension-induced hypertrophy, above which metabolic factors become more important than additional increases in load.

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/articl...ypertrophy.pdf

[uhit]

While we are on the topic of squats. How much of an impact does squatting ATG put onto the glutes and hamstrings in comparison to the quads. If it isn't that much then I can go back to squatting parallel and throw in some accessory lifts for my glutes and hamstrings to compensate.

[Docd187123]

While we are on the topic of squats. How much of an impact does squatting ATG put onto the glutes and hamstrings in comparison to the quads. If it isn't that much then I can go back to squatting parallel and throw in some accessory lifts for my glutes and hamstrings to compensate.

The lower you squat the more you activate glutes and hams but one problem that arises is most ppl lack the flexibility to properly squat ATG so the low back rounds (called the butt wink lol) and the hamstrings must also relax to some degree to allow such depth. Squatting to parallel or just below might be best for most ppl who lack flexibility to go ATG and it still hits the glutes and hams

[600@50]

Not according to the plethora of Olympic and power lifters who train both lifts on the same day.

Some do and some don't. DL day is considered a light leg day by many lifters.

[600@50]

If you ever come out of the gym able to walk straight and never think about your legs again that day then your not training hard enough, leg day your legs should be like jelly.

This ^^^^^^^^ and if you throw up after squats you know you're doing it right.

[shaunjohn242002]

this was an interesting read, especially about the differences of opinions with squatting and deadlifting on the same day. the reason im responding to this is because ive went through a change of routines as of late and from my experience you both are right to a degree. im doing 1rm squat 1 day a week and training bar speed a few days later at around 50 to 75 percent- never to failure. on bar speed days i do deadlifts after squat for accessory work in the 6 to 10 rep range as one of my accessory workouts. been seeing results on 1rm. if i go to failure on either one for sets then its one or the other cause im jello afterwards. op youll get there, you said you neglected your legs in the beginning and so did i. theyll catch up.