Training after Double discectomy.

**ScienceFreak** · 11-10-2016, 06:11 PM

Hello guys , i'm training from the age of 15 with weights (done other sports before) and from my 14, i had a lot of lower back pain and discomfort. I had a suspicion that i might be related to my discs but i didnt give it too much attention.. Until , it was getting progressively worse. Last year i could barely walk and sleep from the pain , it was way too extreme. I had an MRI and i found out that i had 2 discs herniated , L5-S1 L4-L5 and one of them was ruptured for good. My reflexes in my left leg were none existent. I had a double discectomy a year ago and i know that now i've pretty much recovered completely from it. Though doc told me not to consider squatting , deadlifting and doing other exercises that put a strain on my lower back , like cable rows. My legs have gone literally to crap , from the lack of squats and i was wondering what exercises do you suggest me to do to compensate for the lack of those? Btw i'm 20 years old, 6'2'' tall , 191lbs. bf about 18-19% (i'm dieting to bring it back to 10%)

**kelkel** · 11-10-2016, 08:52 PM

Very sorry to hear. Why can't you do other supported exercises such as leg presses in place of squats, machine back work and so forth?

**ScienceFreak** · 11-11-2016, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Very sorry to hear. Why can't you do other supported exercises such as leg presses in place of squats, machine back work and so forth?

Well training my back isnt much of a problem since i can do a lot of other exercises, but legs are an issue. My coach told me that even leg presses dont support the lower back well, and the only leg exercises that i can do are leg extensions and leg curls.. leg extensions arent really a good muscle building exercise , considering that if you go heavy you can damage your joint and ligaments. So i'm kinda stuck to have undeveloped legs and it was one of my best bodyparts when i could really train them

**almostgone** · 11-11-2016, 02:58 AM

Even if you keep your lower back and your @ss glued to the seat, are presses totally out of the question? I'm sure it is extremely frustrating, especially if legs were one of your strong points prior to your injury and surgery.

What about vertical leg presses? Would that be an option?

**Obs** · 11-11-2016, 03:25 AM

Leg extensions and curls are great. Extensions aren't near squats or presses but at least it's something. When I do mine I go up hard and fast and let it drop fast to the halfway point and I do my damndest to lock my legs and somewhat jar to almost a stop. I get good tearing this way. Warm up before so you don't hurt your knees. I hope your back doesn't keep messing up. I know joint pain well enough. Suck at a young age. God bless bro sorry I can't be helpful.

**ScienceFreak** · 11-11-2016, 04:31 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys i really appreciate it. Basically every movement that either puts vertical load in my body or involves the movement or bending of the spine while training is out of the question i guess..vertical press forces you a bit to rise your lower back so i cant risk it. My herniated discs were 80% from genetics as my father had pretty much the same problem at my age but not that serious.The doctor told me that i could be paralyzed if i didnt do the surgery and for a good 6 months after i wasnt supposed to lift more than 2pounds of weight. i work out my abs everyday trying to keep my core as stable as possible and I've even considered using a low amount of gear forever just to aid my muscle building in my core section to keep me safe from injuring again.

**kelkel** · 11-11-2016, 08:44 AM

The only reason your lower back would curl up on a 45 leg press or vertical is if you go too deep. Simply keep a shorter range of motion and this will not occur. Give it a try with some light weight.

**Proximal** · 11-11-2016, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by ScienceFreak

Well training my back isnt much of a problem since i can do a lot of other exercises, but legs are an issue. My coach told me that even leg presses dont support the lower back well, and the only leg exercises that i can do are leg extensions and leg curls.. leg extensions arent really a good muscle building exercise , considering that if you go heavy you can damage your joint and ligaments. So i'm kinda stuck to have undeveloped legs and it was one of my best bodyparts when i could really train them

Sorry for being late to the party. I really find it odd that you can't even do a limited range of motion leg press. Secondly, you mentioned a coach, are you in a sport?

And, what type/ how much physical therapy did you have post surgery?

**MuscleScience** · 11-11-2016, 11:30 AM

Not to step on anyone's toes. I would suggest you 100% stay away from leg presses. When you leg press since your spinal column is not able to move. You put a lot of the vectored forces though the spinal column. Alternatives would be say front squats or overhead squats since they don't directly load the spine like a back squat or leg press would. All my post surgical causes I have worked on, that is the one of the exercise I have them avoid.

**NACH3** · 11-11-2016, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Not to step on anyone's toes. I would suggest you 100% stay away from leg presses. When you leg press since your spinal column is not able to move. You put a lot of the vectored forces though the spinal column. Alternatives would be say front squats or overhead squats since they don't directly load the spine like a back squat or leg press would. All my post surgical causes I have worked on, that is the one of the exercise I have them avoid.

I don't have as an extensive backround as yourself, but I'd still think a loaded overhead squad, though the line is in the over/through the center of the body, many over exaggerate the curviture of the lower back(overarching) or if one has an anterior pelvic tilt itvcould make more difficult(overarching) - Opinions??

Also, I've noticed that going too deep really focuses on those vertebrae, as well - when the butt curls up it's curving and putting pressure on usually the bottom of sacrum & L4-L5 is a very common area - when I had low back pain it only bothered myself if I went too deep ... if my @ss was properly & stably tucked way back in the seat I'd be ok... not a 'Full ROM' but it surely helped my pain and didn't effect my training, as much

Ps I'd recommend under supervision(Physical Therapist) aasvanced kinesiology Chiro etc at the very least... good

**Proximal** · 11-11-2016, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Not to step on anyone's toes. I would suggest you 100% stay away from leg presses. When you leg press since your spinal column is not able to move. You put a lot of the vectored forces though the spinal column. Alternatives would be say front squats or overhead squats since they don't directly load the spine like a back squat or leg press would. All my post surgical causes I have worked on, that is the one of the exercise I have them avoid.

How would you feel about deadlifts with that bar that you stand in the middle of? The OP could limit their motion to their needs and keep a totally neutral lumbar curve. Plus no added weight through the spinal column.

As Nach mentioned above, I'd be a bit worried about an overhead squat (just so much core needed that OP might not have) but definitely see where you're coming from about less load to the spine.

**TRA** · 11-11-2016, 01:15 PM

What would you guys think of one legged DB squats?

**Mr.BB** · 11-11-2016, 01:23 PM

Wasn't the whole thing fused?

**NACH3** · 11-11-2016, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Proximal

How would you feel about deadlifts with that bar that you stand in the middle of? The OP could limit their motion to their needs and keep a totally neutral lumbar curve. Plus no added weight through the spinal column.

As Nach mentioned above, I'd be a bit worried about an overhead squat (just so much core needed that OP might not have) but definitely see where you're coming from about less load to the spine.

A trap bar - Prox - that could be a good start / No load and if proper mechanics are followed you should strengthen your back... chest up facing wall sit back drop the hips(don't bend over) weight back on heals and drive thru those heals - this is just through experience I don't have any studies but it's similar to a certain West Coast Training - I'll look it up

**MuscleScience** · 11-11-2016, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by NACH3

I don't have as an extensive backround as yourself, but I'd still think a loaded overhead squad, though the line is in the over/through the center of the body, many over exaggerate the curviture of the lower back(overarching) or if one has an anterior pelvic tilt itvcould make more difficult(overarching) - Opinions??

Also, I've noticed that going too deep really focuses on those vertebrae, as well - when the butt curls up it's curving and putting pressure on usually the bottom of sacrum & L4-L5 is a very common area - when I had low back pain it only bothered myself if I went too deep ... if my @ss was properly & stably tucked way back in the seat I'd be ok... not a 'Full ROM' but it surely helped my pain and didn't effect my training, as much

Ps I'd recommend under supervision(Physical Therapist) aasvanced kinesiology Chiro etc at the very least... good

With overhead squat, it's generally self limiting on how much weight one could do and also self posture correcting. If one goes to much in to extension (hyperlordosis) or flexion (hypolordosis) the weight gets dropped. Plus after all that surgery the positive effect on core stability is a plus. We are talking however not going overboard on the amount of weight. Or even doing it as a ballistic movement like a clean and snatch.

Originally Posted by Proximal

How would you feel about deadlifts with that bar that you stand in the middle of? The OP could limit their motion to their needs and keep a totally neutral lumbar curve. Plus no added weight through the spinal column.

As Nach mentioned above, I'd be a bit worried about an overhead squat (just so much core needed that OP might not have) but definitely see where you're coming from about less load to the spine.

No forced forward flexion, that is typically how someone injures a disc.

Originally Posted by NACH3

A trap bar - Prox - that could be a good start / No load and if proper mechanics are followed you should strengthen your back... chest up facing wall sit back drop the hips(don't bend over) weight back on heals and drive thru those heals - this is just through experience I don't have any studies but it's similar to a certain West Coast Training - I'll look it up

If one could do so without flexing forward to much. The problem is, it only takes once.

Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ

What would you guys think of one legged DB squats?

I like that or even a DB lunge.

**jstone** · 11-11-2016, 03:21 PM

I wouldospeek to the doctor and get a second opinion. To make sure that these exercises are out for good. I never fully trust doctors, and always seek out multiple opinions.

I had a spinal fusion, and after being 100% cleared my doctor said there is nothing I cant do. I still keep squats and deads light weight, but I do go progressively heavier. I just do it slowly. I also agree with MuscleScience about the leg press, even though I am able to, it puts a pressure on my back that doesn't feel right so I dont do them.

Another option is goblin squats. No load on the spine and there very effective. My fusion was at l4-l5, so in the same area as yours. I have degenerative disc disease. So like you I focus on lots of core work. I also stretch my hamstrings a lot. Someone here recommended it and it helps greatly.

**MuscleScience** · 11-11-2016, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by jstone

I wod speek to the doctor and get a second opinion. I had a spinal fusion, and after being 100% cleared my doctor said there is nothing I cant do. I still keep squats and deads light weight, but I do go progressively heavier. I just do it slowly. I also agree with MuscleScience about the leg press, even though I am able to, it puts a pressure on my back that doesn't feel right so I dont do them.

Another option is goblin squats. No load on the spine and there very effective. My fusion was at l4-l5, so in the same area as yours. I have degenerative disc disease. So like you I focus on lots of core work. I also stretch my hamstrings a lot. Someone here recommended it and it helps greatly.

Goblin squats for the win, forgot about those. I would do those actually over overhead squats first. Unless you need a challenge lol

**jstone** · 11-11-2016, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Goblin squats for the win, forgot about those. I would do those actually over overhead squats first. Unless you need a challenge lol

Goblin squats are great. I started doing these, because I feel more comfortable with heavier weight.

**Mr.BB** · 11-11-2016, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by jstone

I wouldospeek to the doctor and get a second opinion. To make sure that these exercises are out for good. I never fully trust doctors, and always seek out multiple opinions.

I had a spinal fusion, and after being 100% cleared my doctor said there is nothing I cant do. I still keep squats and deads light weight, but I do go progressively heavier. I just do it slowly. I also agree with MuscleScience about the leg press, even though I am able to, it puts a pressure on my back that doesn't feel right so I dont do them.

Another option is goblin squats. No load on the spine and there very effective. My fusion was at l4-l5, so in the same area as yours. I have degenerative disc disease. So like you I focus on lots of core work. I also stretch my hamstrings a lot. Someone here recommended it and it helps greatly.

This is my point. If fusing is completely healed, and proper form used, there's nothing he cant do, unless other discs have further problems...

**kelkel** · 11-11-2016, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by jstone

Goblin squats are great. I started doing these, because I feel more comfortable with heavier weight.

**ScienceFreak** · 11-12-2016, 01:47 PM

my therapy post surgery was basically swimming and core exercises. I dont even trust fully doctors on this stuff so i'm trying to get as much feedback as possible. The problem with myself is that even if my back has healed ,i'm still prone to those injuries because of my crappy genetics. So i'm a little bit scared that this could happen again.I could try doing goblin squats or front squats but i should really try to limit the weight.When i go to the gym i'll try to deadlift like 45lbs at max or something just to see how my back handles the weight.I'll try the same thing with squats(no more than 70lbs). And perform them with limited range of motion like you said. I'll just try that and i'll post how did it go.

**jstone** · 11-12-2016, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

**ScienceFreak** · 11-12-2016, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by jstone

I dont like the way the bar is positioned. I have never been able to get a proper technique for holding the bar. I still squat with weight on my back. I have just been cautious, but I have been gaining more confidence in adding weight. I recently have been warming up with front squats by just using the bar, trying to find a comfortable hold.

sciencefreak inhave degenerative disc disease so my genes are also not great, but im telling you I feel much better squating and deadlifting than not. I started with the bar, and slowly added weight. You need to learn how to brace your core. Even with light weight it helps stabilize your spine during the lift.

I'll try to start those exercises. Do you guys think that i should wear a belt or something? Im generally against wearing belts because i though they just hold you back and you are more prone to injury and they make your core muscles "lazy"

**jstone** · 11-12-2016, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by ScienceFreak

I'll try to start those exercises. Do you guys think that i should wear a belt or something? Im generally against wearing belts because i though they just hold you back and you are more prone to injury and they make your core muscles "lazy"

Get a second opinion first, just to make sure your ok. Im not a doctor and wouldn't want my advice to cause you problems. If you're fully cleared just start light and work your way up. I personally dont use belts, I brace my core. Theres videos on YouTube how to brace your core.