Giving up - No results from years in gym. Any advice?

[Fiskevatten]

Hey guys,

Sorry for a lot of text.
I'm starting to get whiny and loose the feeling of hitting the gym at all, which used to be the best thing in the world for me.
The reason is that I don't see any results, and haven't for the last 2-3 years.
Neither in strength, nor size.
So I'm clearly doing something very wrong.

My stats are:
29 y.o.
185 cm
85,4 kg
Around 15-20% bf (self estimate)

Cycles:
2 horrible cycles a couple of years ago, and two relatively successful (could have eaten more).
Had plans to jump on it again but haven't touch any compound in 1.5-2 year.

Last diet:
Went on a crazy spree of 300g brown rice, 1 kg chicken breast and vegetables spread out on 3 times a day.
+ 1 PWO, 1 Proteinshake w. fatfree milk a day + 1 creatine/ bcaa drink.
Sometimes a soda when energy is too low.
Result after 1 month: Lost both muscle-size and fat. Looked rly skinny.
No increase in anything.

Seems that if I go above around 3000 kcal, I get lower stomach fat FAST (nowhere else). And lower, I loose both size and fat.

Gym-routine:
I always train hard, often harder than most in the gym.
My stamina is high which makes me have less need for rest and often go on supersets. I love going to failure in almost everything.
And I love to focus on contraction to rly press that blood in. Exercise around 45min - 1 hour.
I want it to hurt, but not so much that I risk injury or fatigue so I can't keep going.
Live stress free and sleep 8 hours/ day.


Normally (may differ):
Monday: chest/Core/Triceps
Tuesday: Shoulders/Core/Biceps
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Back/ Core
Saturday: What I want to grow more/ Core
Sunday: Rest

Often 3-4 exercises for bigger muscle-groups and 1-2 for smaller.
Often 4 sets of each with high reps to failure for 4 weeks, then 2 weeks of less workout days/ heavy 1rp max and 3x3 lifts/ more rest.

I say normally bcus I have 2 bodybuilders trying to help me with various programs and diet these last 2 years.
They say that they grow on less and that I've been doing what they say correctly.

I always jump between 85-89kg.
And I haven't managed to reach a new PB in a long time in anything.
My PB's (1rp max):
Deadlift: 230 kg
Squat: 120kg
Front Squat: 95kg
Military press: 90kg
Bench: 120kg

I will put a picture as well so you can see my current look.

Any help is MUCH appreciated since I'm getting low self-esteem of this.
Any critique, advice, hate, don't care as long as it might put me towards the right path.



Picture is in a relaxed state

[DocToxin8]

If you like going to failure on everything, doing supersets and short breaks,
maybe you're pushing so hard it's difficult to grow.
Both because you'll use lighter weights than you could,
and that this high intense style is what you've been doing for so long that you're body's adapted to it.
Like a boxer or something, you're body notice that it doesn't need to grow bigger, as that would actually make you worse at the type of training your doing.
You said you had 2 bodybuilders helping you.
Any chance of having a whole workout with one of them, just doing what they do, (and nothing more!) to see how that goes?

You don't need to leave the gym exhausted every time.

[Fiskevatten]

If you like going to failure on everything, doing supersets and short breaks,
maybe you're pushing so hard it's difficult to grow.
Both because you'll use lighter weights than you could,
and that this high intense style is what you've been doing for so long that you're body's adapted to it.
Like a boxer or something, you're body notice that it doesn't need to grow bigger, as that would actually make you worse at the type of training your doing.
You said you had 2 bodybuilders helping you.
Any chance of having a whole workout with one of them, just doing what they do, (and nothing more!) to see how that goes?

You don't need to leave the gym exhausted every time.

I appreciate the help

The thought has def. started to cross my mind.
It just feels ..wrong.. to exercise less intense somehow. Even on the heavy days when I go 3x3 or 1rp max, I kinda feel unsatisfied back home.

Might be a good idea.
Last help I got from one of them was to build size and strength in legs.
I was put on a "Russian 10x10 program" as he said.
So 10 sets of 10 reps squats 2 times/ week. Starting from 50 kg and then up 5-10 kg each time until I reached 100 kg.
I succeeded at last, but I didn't add any noticeable size on legs or core def.
And the strength went away fast after I stopped the program.

The recommendation came from the natural one. He always stick to hes programs and only tuna+pasta day in and out as diet. But he grows like a monster.
So it might work for me to step down a little and go more heavy with more rest.

[NACH3]

Your doing volume training which activates type 2a muscle fibers whereas going to true positive failure and beyond(HIT) targets type 2b fast twitch muscle fibers which grow 4x the size of 2a...

45-60 min max is all you need - shorten rest periods and up your intensity to break thru a plateau! Check out how wetrain in Marcus' dungeon - start reading GL

[NACH3]

Have you gotten BW recently? Anything out of place

[jolter604]

Eat more change routine....

[NACH3]

I appreciate the help

The thought has def. started to cross my mind.
It just feels ..wrong.. to exercise less intense somehow. Even on the heavy days when I go 3x3 or 1rp max, I kinda feel unsatisfied back home.

Might be a good idea.
Last help I got from one of them was to build size and strength in legs.
I was put on a "Russian 10x10 program" as he said.
So 10 sets of 10 reps squats 2 times/ week. Starting from 50 kg and then up 5-10 kg each time until I reached 100 kg.
I succeeded at last, but I didn't add any noticeable size on legs or core def.
And the strength went away fast after I stopped the program.

The recommendation came from the natural one. He always stick to hes programs and only tuna+pasta day in and out as diet. But he grows like a monster.
So it might work for me to step down a little and go more heavy with more rest.

Opposite way... heavy with very short rest periods and as intense as possible - you want size and strength then stick to hypertrophy training just don't do a set of a certain amount of reps never holdback - never waste a rep or set - 12 reps max in a total working set is all you need but must go to true failure... watch Dorian Yates' blood and guts and his warm ups & feeler sets gauge his working set weight - he's got a spotter which helps tremendously with forced reps and negatives

[Fiskevatten]

Have you gotten BW recently? Anything out of place

Please correct me if I didn't understand it correctly, but should I press my current workout routine even harder to break the plateau?

I did BW after last cycle. Have the papers back home unfortunately, but I remember that the doc said that all was in good order. 1 or 2
figures that was just below average, but nothing that wouldn't sort itself out with time.
I went back six months ago complaining that I still had back acne coming up, and the scars were red.
He just prescribed me doxycycline and roaccutane and said that it was impossible for hormones to be a culprit anymore bcus of the time.
That even if I had any issues before, it would be fixed by itself by now.

Good idea to take a new test?
In Thailand now so it's much easier.

[NACH3]

Please correct me if I didn't understand it correctly, but should I press my current workout routine even harder to break the plateau?

I did BW after last cycle. Have the papers back home unfortunately, but I remember that the doc said that all was in good order. 1 or 2
figures that was just below average, but nothing that wouldn't sort itself out with time.
I went back six months ago complaining that I still had back acne coming up, and the scars were red.
He just prescribed me doxycycline and roaccutane and said that it was impossible for hormones to be a culprit anymore bcus of the time.
That even if I had any issues before, it would be fixed by itself by now.

Good idea to take a new test?
In Thailand now so it's much easier.

^^ I'm sure it is lol

What I'm suggesting is progressive overload! HIT is one working set to true positive failure static failure follows extremely close then we have our negative phase - our strongest... exhaust all three phases and you've got no other choice to grow.

It sounds like your doing more of a PL routine.. which takes long rest periods - remember LESS IS MORE in this lifestyle! Are you PL or BBing... or powerbuilding?!

What's your split? Maybe a change in your split(starting with the BP which needs the most work first) then we can tailor it to suit you... read pg 41 in Marcus' Dungeon... and around pg's 1000 and a few back from where we are are re-posts by Marcus, which are incredible and gives Tons of info! Check it out

[DocToxin8]

Bloodwork is always smart.

There's two approaches here to accomplish basically the same thing;

HIIT training
or
traditional volume training but doing way less than you do now.

I do both depending on how I feel, or even a mixture of them.
But I'm probably closer to HIIT than I realize much of the time.

Point is that whatever approach;
Your workouts doesn't leave you wrecked.
The point is to stimulate the muscle to grow, not break it down.
(Yeah I know the old saying of you need to break it down, but looking under a electron microscope you're causing damage to small to be seen, or if it is seen, it takes months to recover)

HIIT is basically just doing feeler sets on each excersize to find the right weight,
and once you've found it, do one set to TRUE failure.
That means you'll either have a spotter helping you or do a drop set until you're you can't move anything. Then after that one set, you're finished with that excersize.
A HIIT program can therefore be done in fairly short time; 30-40min.
And when you leave, unlike the 1h30min programs you might be used to,
You can't wait to go back the next day, but you do feel a pump from hell.
(This is just one understanding of HIIT, there are several)

What i mean by a more classic volume approach means workouts last about 40-60min. With a 10min warmup.
So I use a lot of the same HIIT principles in there, I just don't only adhere to them.

If I were you I'd go for HIIT, cause you really need to know that less is more sometimes. If it doesn't work then we can tweak it.

[DocToxin8]

I didn't see Nachs post there, he explained it better.
And it works.

[NACH3]

You explained it just fine DOC

PS... its only one I HIT...

[AR's King Silabolin]

1: check your test. U have done cycles, maybe u didnt heal and are below 300. Also check gh and do a full bloodtest to rule out that stuff.

2: drop training, ur not growing while u train. Hit it hard 3 times a week, basic movements, good form. Heavy and ligth.

3: 300 g rice is nothing. U need at least 800 g carbs. Remember, protein is overrated. Eat more nuts and healthy fat.

4: if gaining too much fat, add cardio on the days when u not lift.

5: drink more water. 15 dl before training.

6: more important than a pwo is an intratrainingshake. Mix 10 dl pomegranate and 20 gs of bcaa. Drink evenly during workout.

7: forget about HIT and training styles, just move the iron 3 times a week. Go by feel, eat more. This approach will give so much energy that it will be HIT all day without thinking about it.

Promise u, this simple tips will make u grow. I grew like a motherfucker when i got my test back (Nebido) and dropped training and ate more rice.

[DocToxin8]

1: check your test. U have done cycles, maybe u didnt heal and are below 300. Also check gh and do a full bloodtest to rule out that stuff.

2: drop training, ur not growing while u train. Hit it hard 3 times a week, basic movements, good form. Heavy and ligth.

3: 300 g rice is nothing. U need at least 800 g carbs. Remember, protein is overrated. Eat more nuts and healthy fat.

4: if gaining too much fat, add cardio on the days when u not lift.

5: drink more water. 15 dl before training.

6: more important than a pwo is an intratrainingshake. Mix 10 dl pomegranate and 20 gs of bcaa. Drink evenly during workout.

7: forget about HIT and training styles, just move the iron 3 times a week. Go by feel, eat more. This approach will give so much energy that it will be HIT all day without thinking about it.

Promise u, this simple tips will make u grow. I grew like a motherfucker when i got my test back (Nebido) and dropped training and ate more rice.

Except for the pomegranate which would make me puke,
this has to be one of the better advice I've seen from you Sil.

There are many ways to Rome, and this will probably also work.

Training 3x a week for bulking does work, and just eat like a son of a bitch.

And check your natty T levels.

There's room for more than one way to do it.
but OP, lest you be more confused,
Just go with one of the methods described and follow it for least a month.

Im leaning towards thinking you're problem is not enough rest and too little food, so you would probably grow whatever you choose,
HIIT or this.

But once you advance a little I'd get into HIIT if I was you.

[Fiskevatten]

Damn, you guys made me want to train harder than ever. Feels nice to get a slap on the cheek sometimes
and get reminded that there are other ways.

I will try go for HIT, it's more my style. Since training is not only physical for me, also rehab for my mentally challenged brain, I'd love to
get the stress and thoughts out hard. :P
Gonna check out Marcus Dungeon as well, but if I start now I might be up to date there around year 2042...

I've never tried a clean bulk, just the more tasty bulk. And I did try the GOMAD version as well once.
Will go back to eating more carbs and fat again.

Will do BW as well. Since I'm still getting zits and red scars, I can't do laser. So might find more out of order there to.

Big thanks Nach, Doc and Sila.. I'd love to offer you guys a cold beer and a ladyboy one day, some of them only got their foreskin left.

[cousinmuscles]

Side note, your squat to deadlift seems very off, especially strange considering you use pretty much the same muscles.

Either your intensity is not as high as you believe or you are overtraining. I have plenty competetive bodybuilder friends and not all of them go to failure... though they respond well to the training theyre doing.

I suggest you get yourself a little log book where you write in each set, rep, weight for every workout. You need to collect the data and then switch up variables like total amount of sets, rep ranges, rest between sets, rest between workouts, workouts per week et.c. Aim to increase in reps or weight consistently, even if youre not powerlifting (you are still doing bodybuilding type training) the differences in the mirror will not be as significant week by week to evaluate your training program.

You can search for dorian yates HIT training on youtube to try one variation of short and high intensity workouts.

My type of routine is deadlifts, squats, front squats, good mornings, barbell/dumbbell bench, incline bench, pullups, bb/db rows, dips, close grip press, JM press, military/db/smith press, leg curls, bb/db/hammer/reverse curl, bunch of calf raises. I split it up into one squat day, one deadlift, one vertical push and pull (shoulder presses, dips, chins etc) and one horizontal push and pull (bench, rows etc). I find that upper body responds better to higher frequency thats why I have two days where theyre hit. Though this is what I figured out for my body and I have tons of log books where I came to the same conclusions... may not be the same for you! Another thing I found for myself is that any amount of "pumping" or supersets or contractions will do absolutely nothing. When I increase in strength in the 3-10 rep range I increase in size.

Same goes for dieting and macros.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Gonna check out Marcus Dungeon as well, but if I start now I might be up to date there around year 2042...

:

i think u should reconsider that one though..

Castle HIT...name of the game!!

[NACH3]

i think u should reconsider that one though..

Castle HIT...name of the game!!

Don't fool yourself - it's not even HIT

[DocToxin8]

Don't fool yourself - it's not even HIT

Yeah that I never understood Sil,
why call it HIT when it's not?

Sure many here preach HIT training,
but there are many ways to train, powerlifting f.ex is pretty far from HIT,
and we all agree powerlifting is good for bodybuilders too.

So I never understood why you'd call it HIT when it's not.
But your sense of humor does escape me sometimes, I'll admit that.

[NACH3]

Yeah that I never understood Sil,
why call it HIT when it's not?

Sure many here preach HIT training,
but there are many ways to train, powerlifting f.ex is pretty far from HIT,
and we all agree powerlifting is good for bodybuilders too.

So I never understood why you'd call it HIT when it's not.
But your sense of humor does escape me sometimes, I'll admit that.

Hahaha I can see that

[Obs]

I could... but I don't even give a shit.

[Fiskevatten]

Side note, your squat to deadlift seems very off, especially strange considering you use pretty much the same muscles.

haha been hearing that for years. Reason (I think) is that I started lifting deads leaning too much forward.
When it finally came to heavier weights, I noticed that my back got that wonderful "banana shape", but with lower back straight.
And I couldn't get the weight over my knees.
So lifting too long wrong gave me this odd predicament.

[DocToxin8]

But your deads are 110kg heavier than your squats. Or was it a typo and you meant the other way around? (In which case your squat is really good)

Anyway, just include them to train technique and it will get better.

[Chicagotarsier]

When was your last bloodwork? Even high rep lower weight results in mass and definition. You might still be shutdown or have an issue.

Your description of the 10x10 and results says to me you are not healthy. Check your thyroid and hormone profile. Collecting fat easily relates to high Estrogen or low thyroid. Not building muscle relates to high estrogen. You look exhausted in your photos which relates to high estrogen or low thyroid.

If you have insurance it should cover the tests

[Fiskevatten]

But your deads are 110kg heavier than your squats. Or was it a typo and you meant the other way around? (In which case your squat is really good)

Anyway, just include them to train technique and it will get better.

Not a typo and I agree it's wierd. Most get suprised at that number and I understand why.
Funny thing is that my back always stay strong regardless of how much I train it (old job as mover), but my legs drop really fast in strength.
I took a 2 month break before and could still pull of 200 without any issue in deads, but was stuck at 90 kg in squats (?)

I've started lifting more with the legs since. It haven't given me any strength increase yet, but I can pull of more reps.

And I have never tried any belt in my life. Would be fun to see where I'm at if I get the hang of it all.

Btw: Pushed the crap out of me today after you guys advice. I just realized that I'm shit weak haha
Did a nice warmup for legday.
- After that I started with 100kg squat, no rest point in lifts to keep tension. Managed 4 sets to failure. 9 reps (failed at 10th), 4 reps, 4 reps, 2 reps.
- Went to 60 kg walking lunges. 4x4 without hitting knee at floor.
- Legpress machine. 100 kg/ 4 set. 4-4-3-2 and then hip started to hurt so I stopped.

No more than 30 seconds rest between every set and exercise. Had to stay 20min at the gym to not vomit outside.
Loved it!
Now I just need to do that for a shit load of time.


Should I increase anything else and how many days can I exercise on this?

[Fiskevatten]

When was your last bloodwork? Even high rep lower weight results in mass and definition. You might still be shutdown or have an issue.

Your description of the 10x10 and results says to me you are not healthy. Check your thyroid and hormone profile. Collecting fat easily relates to high Estrogen or low thyroid. Not building muscle relates to high estrogen. You look exhausted in your photos which relates to high estrogen or low thyroid.

If you have insurance it should cover the tests

Last BW must have been 1.5 years ago or something like that. I agree that I don't feel my best, so if I look exhausted, then that gotta mean something.
I got a recommendation for a place to do BW today, will check it out asap.
Thanks for notice and giving me advice on this.
It's a shame that so many doctors are so low educated on hormones, most don't even want to hear you mention it in my experience.

[Fiskevatten]

Got a call from the clinic, they want to know what I want to test?
"Everything" wasn't a suffice answer apparently.

Any idea what I should check for in BW?

[RaginCajun]

1: check your test. U have done cycles, maybe u didnt heal and are below 300. Also check gh and do a full bloodtest to rule out that stuff.

2: drop training, ur not growing while u train. Hit it hard 3 times a week, basic movements, good form. Heavy and ligth.

3: 300 g rice is nothing. U need at least 800 g carbs. Remember, protein is overrated. Eat more nuts and healthy fat.

4: if gaining too much fat, add cardio on the days when u not lift.

5: drink more water. 15 dl before training.

6: more important than a pwo is an intratrainingshake. Mix 10 dl pomegranate and 20 gs of bcaa. Drink evenly during workout.

7: forget about HIT and training styles, just move the iron 3 times a week. Go by feel, eat more. This approach will give so much energy that it will be HIT all day without thinking about it.

Promise u, this simple tips will make u grow. I grew like a motherfucker when i got my test back (Nebido) and dropped training and ate more rice.

oh shut it with the rice crap!

[RaginCajun]

Got a call from the clinic, they want to know what I want to test?
"Everything" wasn't a suffice answer apparently.

Any idea what I should check for in BW?

there are some threads about what to test for somewhere in here.

i will try to locate one and link it. may take a while

if not, ask Kel Kel, he can definitely lead you in the correct direction

[Fiskevatten]

there are some threads about what to test for somewhere in here.

i will try to locate one and link it. may take a while

if not, ask Kel Kel, he can definitely lead you in the correct direction

Cheers man, appreciate it!
I'm confused since I haven't been on anything for a pretty long time, so most should be leveled by time.
And according to the doc (then), I was only lower than average on 2 points. But can't remember which ones and the papers are back home in
a box somewhere.
That bw was really extensive, same test here will cost me over 600 USD at my place.

I got Thyroid and Estrogen levels, I've read myself to LH, FSH and Total+ Free test as well.
Anything I'm missing that might be important in my situation?

[cousinmuscles]

Not a typo and I agree it's wierd. Most get suprised at that number and I understand why.
Funny thing is that my back always stay strong regardless of how much I train it (old job as mover), but my legs drop really fast in strength.
I took a 2 month break before and could still pull of 200 without any issue in deads, but was stuck at 90 kg in squats (?)

I've started lifting more with the legs since. It haven't given me any strength increase yet, but I can pull of more reps.

And I have never tried any belt in my life. Would be fun to see where I'm at if I get the hang of it all.

Btw: Pushed the crap out of me today after you guys advice. I just realized that I'm shit weak haha
Did a nice warmup for legday.
- After that I started with 100kg squat, no rest point in lifts to keep tension. Managed 4 sets to failure. 9 reps (failed at 10th), 4 reps, 4 reps, 2 reps.
- Went to 60 kg walking lunges. 4x4 without hitting knee at floor.
- Legpress machine. 100 kg/ 4 set. 4-4-3-2 and then hip started to hurt so I stopped.

No more than 30 seconds rest between every set and exercise. Had to stay 20min at the gym to not vomit outside.
Loved it!
Now I just need to do that for a shit load of time.


Should I increase anything else and how many days can I exercise on this?

Regarding squats, it might be a big technique impediment. You might think that youre lifting with your back on deadlifts and very little when squatting, and vice versa with squats. Thats not really true though, its basically the same muscles with a slight emphasis on lower back and hamstrings for deads and quads for squats. Glutes work kind of equally much...

If you have 30 second rest between sets then you are going far away from the HIT recommendation from many in this thread. Your training favors slow twich muscle fibers. It will take time to learn but for a start, get a log book and note everything down. Just have a goal with each workout where you beat your old workout. You need more than 30 seconds rest to hit the fast twitch muscle fibers. Try 2-3 minutes and just keep beating the book and over time you will have tried many variations so you can see which produces results. Dont do anything for too long if you keep pushing the same weights over and over.

[Fiskevatten]

Regarding squats, it might be a big technique impediment. You might think that youre lifting with your back on deadlifts and very little when squatting, and vice versa with squats. Thats not really true though, its basically the same muscles with a slight emphasis on lower back and hamstrings for deads and quads for squats. Glutes work kind of equally much...

If you have 30 second rest between sets then you are going far away from the HIT recommendation from many in this thread. Your training favors slow twich muscle fibers. It will take time to learn but for a start, get a log book and note everything down. Just have a goal with each workout where you beat your old workout. You need more than 30 seconds rest to hit the fast twitch muscle fibers. Try 2-3 minutes and just keep beating the book and over time you will have tried many variations so you can see which produces results. Dont do anything for too long if you keep pushing the same weights over and over.

You are most likely right on that part. I've had spotters that checked me and I've also tried to take a video to see how I lift as well, but even if I lift correct
now when I think about it, I might have been doing it wrong all the way back in some degree.

I will follow your advice on the log.
Been thinking about keeping log on the measures as well since I never see any progress, but others apparently do.

haha damn, first try on HIT and I immediately go overboard. Gotta read more on that.
I've never had this much pain in each muscle since a long time tho^^

Btw, I took my tests today.
They didn't have everything, so I had to be happy with:
Full Lipid profile, LH, FSH. Total test, E2 and TSH. Hope that can show something.

And she got worried of my BP for some reason.
149/71 - 41 as first test in the morning with no food or drink for 8 hours.
I did a EKG test in sweden which gave me 36 in resting pulse before trip, that doc only said I train hard apparently.
Any concerns?

[Jphunter]

I got to the point were u said you were only eating 3 times a day is that correct ? If so bud you should be eating at least 5 times preferably 6 times a day every 3 hours .

[Fiskevatten]

I got to the point were u said you were only eating 3 times a day is that correct ? If so bud you should be eating at least 5 times preferably 6 times a day every 3 hours .

True! I eat 3 large portions instead of 6 smaller. Reason is time and work
Does it make a significant difference?

[Fiskevatten]

Got my BW results.
She said all looked normal, any comments on this?
Haven't used any AAS in 1.5 - 2 years.



They didn't have all the tests, e.g. Free T. So I hope this suffice

[RaginCajun]

maybe post these results in the Blood work section or HRT

hopefully Kel kel will chime in