The TRAINING discussion blog

[GearHeaded]

the AAS section of the forum gets all the action. we all enjoy the drug talk. so figured I'd start this thread as a type of open discussion regarding training principles and theories or a place to ask random training questions.

I'll start with a few random things.

Contraction Based Training VS Movement Based Training -

I'm betting that 95% of you guys are doing movement based training and not contraction based training. Movement based training is exactly how it sounds, your moving a load from point A to point B. during the process of this movement certain muscle groups are working to move the load.

example - Bench press. your taking 225 pounds on a barbell and lowering (moving) the weight down to your chest and then pushing (moving) the weight back up. in this process, even though mentally your focusing on your pecs if thats the muscle your training that day, multiple muscles are working to help you 'move' the weight. your traps, lats, triceps, delts, and chest, are all working together to 'move' the weight from point A to point B.

What is Contraction Based Training ?

this is where you are NOT moving a load from point A to point B. your only focus is on contracting a certain muscle under load. This contraction then results in a load being moved. your not trying to move the load willfully or purposely at all, your simply just focused on contracting a given muscle, and as a secondary result the load then moves.

what is a muscular contraction.. simply taking a muscle from its fully lengthened position to its fully shortened position. when a muscle is in its fully shortened position it is fully contracted. all along that range of motion are various degrees of contraction.
eg., take your arm and extend it all the way out away from you. your bicep is in a fully lengthened position (your bicep is at its longest length). then take your fist and touch your shoulder (flex your bicep) and the bicep is in its fully shortened position (your bicep is as short in length as it can get).

side note - in anatomy (yes you have to take a short course in anatomy to become a personal trainer) you'll learn that you cannot actually "flex" your muscles, despite that popular term. only joints have flexion. muscle cannot 'flex' it can only lengthen and shorten and contract.


Contraction based training -- so your goal here is to lengthen and shorten the given muscle and contract it as hard as possible, 'under load' . your only using weight, exercises, or machines, to put your muscle under a certain load, and that is it. your not doing an exercise to move the load at all, its just their to provide tension for your muscle to contact.
in power lifting and olympic lifting the goal is always movement based training.


give contraction based training a try sometime.. leave your ego at the door. you will not be lifting heavy weight when you start out.
again, you really need to just focus on the specific muscle your training. the weight/load does NOT move at all except by the secondary action of you contracting that muscle.
I can easily hammer curl 90 pound dumbbells (by moving them). but if I take a 25 pound dumbbell and let my arm and bicep fully be stretched out and lengthened and then mentally focus on ONLY contracting my bicep (not moving the weight) that dumbbell becomes pretty damn heavy and my bicep is doing a tremendous amount of work under load.. its doing more work with that 25 pounds with a strong contraction, then its doing just moving the 90 pound dumbbell.


obviously contraction based training is mainly for isolation work. its not going to make up all of your training program, as there is still a place for heavy compound movement based training.
but give it a try next time you do isolation work and you'll get a new stimulus and probably new growth out of it , YET its not very taxing on your CNS and something thats easy to recover from.

[Family_guy]

the AAS section of the forum gets all the action. we all enjoy the drug talk. so figured I'd start this thread as a type of open discussion regarding training principles and theories or a place to ask random training questions.

I'll start with a few random things.

Contraction Based Training VS Movement Based Training -

I'm betting that 95% of you guys are doing movement based training and not contraction based training. Movement based training is exactly how it sounds, your moving a load from point A to point B. during the process of this movement certain muscle groups are working to move the load.

example - Bench press. your taking 225 pounds on a barbell and lowering (moving) the weight down to your chest and then pushing (moving) the weight back up. in this process, even though mentally your focusing on your pecs if thats the muscle your training that day, multiple muscles are working to help you 'move' the weight. your traps, lats, triceps, delts, and chest, are all working together to 'move' the weight from point A to point B.

What is Contraction Based Training ?

this is where you are NOT moving a load from point A to point B. your only focus is on contracting a certain muscle under load. This contraction then results in a load being moved. your not trying to move the load willfully or purposely at all, your simply just focused on contracting a given muscle, and as a secondary result the load then moves.

what is a muscular contraction.. simply taking a muscle from its fully lengthened position to its fully shortened position. when a muscle is in its fully shortened position it is fully contracted. all along that range of motion are various degrees of contraction.
eg., take your arm and extend it all the way out away from you. your bicep is in a fully lengthened position (your bicep is at its longest length). then take your fist and touch your shoulder (flex your bicep) and the bicep is in its fully shortened position (your bicep is as short in length as it can get).

side note - in anatomy (yes you have to take a short course in anatomy to become a personal trainer) you'll learn that you cannot actually "flex" your muscles, despite that popular term. only joints have flexion. muscle cannot 'flex' it can only lengthen and shorten and contract.


Contraction based training -- so your goal here is to lengthen and shorten the given muscle and contract it as hard as possible, 'under load' . your only using weight, exercises, or machines, to put your muscle under a certain load, and that is it. your not doing an exercise to move the load at all, its just their to provide tension for your muscle to contact.
in power lifting and olympic lifting the goal is always movement based training.


give contraction based training a try sometime.. leave your ego at the door. you will not be lifting heavy weight when you start out.
again, you really need to just focus on the specific muscle your training. the weight/load does NOT move at all except by the secondary action of you contracting that muscle.
I can easily hammer curl 90 pound dumbbells (by moving them). but if I take a 25 pound dumbbell and let my arm and bicep fully be stretched out and lengthened and then mentally focus on ONLY contracting my bicep (not moving the weight) that dumbbell becomes pretty damn heavy and my bicep is doing a tremendous amount of work under load.. its doing more work with that 25 pounds with a strong contraction, then its doing just moving the 90 pound dumbbell.


obviously contraction based training is mainly for isolation work. its not going to make up all of your training program, as there is still a place for heavy compound movement based training.
but give it a try next time you do isolation work and you'll get a new stimulus and probably new growth out of it , YET its not very taxing on your CNS and something thats easy to recover from.

I gotta give this a try. Very interesting thought.

Why would a person use contraction vs movement training though? Does the contraction method actually work the muscle better?

[HoldMyBeer]

I think time under tension also plays a big factor in the difference

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

[Proximal]

It’s also physiological.

As you voluntarily (and involuntarily) activate your CNS more, your CNS sends a higher frequency of nerve signals per second to the muscle groups that are being used. Your nervous system is incapable of forming a strong or weak nerve signal, the “strength or intensity” is based upon the amount of impulses sent per second. For example, to hold a pencil, you are looking at 40-60 signals per second; minimum. Max capacity is approximately 1000 per second.

Likewise, muscles and muscle fibers cannot contract stronger or weaker. To generate more strength, you must use more muscle fibers. And as stated above, that can only happen with a higher frequency of nerve signals from the CNS. That is the key to strength & power; how can I as an athlete voluntarily activate my CNS to generate a higher frequency of nerve impulses so that more muscle fibers can be recruited.

So during this very focused motion you are already sending a higher frequency. Now due to the increased intensity, you are exhausting more and more fibers and the CNS sends yet a higher frequency to activate additional fibers.

I’ve always debated with myself why HIT training with drop sets, forced reps and ultimately negatives to failure were so effective for some individuals and I’ve always come back to the explanation is that simply, more and more muscle fibers have to be used. GH, I’m thinking that the contraction based training falls under that category.

Curious, are you going through a full ROM? How much time would each set take?

[PeanutbutterDC]

I'm familiar with thos concept but didn't know it had a name. Great explanation, GH!

[Family_guy]

I tried this the other day. I tried it with barbell smith shrugs and I actually increased my weight on that lift. The focus on the contraction was incredible. It was slightly odd but i really felt it.

I also tried on DB curls and that was a different story. The weight felt a lot heaavier and i couldn’t focus purely on the contraction the way I did with the shrugs. It was unique though.

So far I’d say this is a great way to build mind-muscle connection. I just gotta keep working on it and add it to my repertoire occasionally

[i_SLAM_cougars]

I use to keep all my stuff written down in a notebook so I could make sure I was increasing weight or reps every week.

In light of some pretty sore joints lately I’ve thrown the notebook out.

I’ve cut back and done more of a higher rep, higher volume, chasing the pump kind of thing, and it seems to be working well for me.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

Bumping this one back to the top because it interests me

[GearHeaded]

OLD MAN TRAINING - save the joints

ok so I'm not going to completely dive into the science of hypertrophy on this one. but there is lots of recent research out there now showing that hypertrophy is dependent mainly on 'tension' and bringing muscle fibers to fatigue so that more and more fibers are recruited.
it doesn't really matter if you do 8 reps to failure, or 30 reps to failure. all that matters is those '3' or so reps around failure where all muscle fibers are recruited. so when you do 8 reps to failure with a heavy load, it just means you get to those 3 "effective reps" at a much faster rate then if you do say 30 reps to failure, where it takes much longer to get to those 3 "effective reps"

anyhow. thats not my point here.. I'm just taking this research and giving an idea on how to train for guys like myself that have lots of injuries and joint problems.

so heres a real life example of something I'm personal doing (with just one exercise) to try this out.. I'll give the example and then explain


so the exercise is bench press. which with motorcycle accidents, broken shoulders, torn rotator cuffs, etc.. has given me fits over the years. I should of just gave up on the bench press years ago, but I'm a stubborn old school bastard when it comes to bench press.

so heres what I used to do for bench press on a chest day or press day.

- i'd warm up on a machine press. then once I got on bench press I'd start with 225 and hit about 8 reps (not close to failure at all, still a warm up). then I'd add weight. 8 reps again. add weight, 8 reps again. add weight, 8 reps again.. then I'd get to my heavy working sets. this would be about 295. I would need a spotter at this point cause I would fail around 6-7 reps. I'd do two sets at this weight. then I would pyramid back down and rep everything out.
once in a while before going back down I'd hit 315 for a double.

^ now going to failure with relatively heavy weight (well heavy for me at least), would often times thrash my shoulders and cause a lot of pain.


- this is what I'm doing now. just testing out the theory I presented above in the first paragraph. I'm using light weight to build up to the point that the light weight will cause me a failure stimulus to the muscle , without beating up my joints.
so before bench press I'm doing a pec exercise and I'm pre exhausting my chest. that way I won't be that strong on the bench and I can use lighter loads. I then load up only 175 pounds. I do 8 reps. but I do a very slow 3 second negative, then I do a 1-2 second pause at the bottom, then I press. this is fatiguing/activating the muscle quite well, and I'm getting a lot out of the very light load. of course in my mind I'm like "man this is too fk'ing light', I'm tempted to add weight to the bar, or at least rep out like 25 reps with this light load. but I stick to just the 8 controlled reps and then rack the weight.

NOW I only rest 30 seconds. then I do the same thing again for 8 slow reps. rack the weight.. then repeat.. I do this for 10 total sets. with the same 3 second negative and 2 second pause. and again only 30 sec rest between sets.
now I started out thinking "man I need to add weight this is way too light" .. but by time I get to set 7-10 , that shit feels damn heavy. BUT it feels damn heavy on the actual muscles I'm working, NOT on the joints (the 315 I used to was heavy on the joints).. so I'm getting those 'effective reps' in, I'm getting those failure reps in and making the muscle recruit all its fibers. the muscle doesn't know the weight on the bar. it only knows tension, fatigue, and muscle fiber recruitment.. I've achieved this now with a very light load and not much stress on the joints.


just an idea guys . if your younger and injury free and you can hit heavy loads to failure. thats great.. but for us older guys or guys working around a lot of injuries, we have to figure out how to train smarter, not just harder.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

Is there something we can do strengthen injured joints so we can be the guys pressing 4 and 5 plates? Because... ego?

[GearHeaded]

Is there something we can do strengthen injured joints so we can be the guys pressing 4 and 5 plates? Because... ego?

yes. the same way you strengthen muscle. you put it under heavy load, let it rest and recover and adapt, give it quality nutrition, and then repeat .

truth is , if you learn to lift heavy loads 'Properly' when your younger, then those tissue will adapt and become stronger and stronger over the years.

so I'm not against hitting heavy weights. but heavy has to be heavy within the context of proper form. having trained 100s of people in person, I can say that 95% of people do not have proper form even though they think they do.
for most my in person clients . going to "failure" is generally always going to "form failure" , not all out muscle failure. form will break down first, and thats when the exercise stops

[Windex]

Unpopular Opinions:

- Squat and Deadlift are too expensive of lifts. You don't get out what you put in from a physiological stress perspective.

- Primobolan * is the best protective anabolic steroid (*real)

- Negative reps are just as important as the positive lift.

- You cannot go to true failure on every set, of every exercise, of every workout.

- Most people reach cardiovascular failure before true muscle failure.

- The mind is the weakest body part

[HoldMyBeer]

Unpopular Opinions:

- Squat and Deadlift are too expensive of lifts. You don't get out what you put in from a physiological stress perspective.

- Primobolan * is the best protective anabolic steroid (*real)

- Negative reps are just as important as the positive lift.

- You cannot go to true failure on every set, of every exercise, of every workout.

- Most people reach cardiovascular failure before true muscle failure.

- The mind is the weakest body part

I disagreed w only the last 2 until I started typing this out
1. I know that, but do them anyways because of ego
2. Love primo, ran it to compliment my trt for the last 6 months
3. You recruit twice as many muscle fibers in the eccentric
4. As soon as you hit failure on a muscle group, the rest of the sets on that group are worthless imo
5. My cardio is shit and that hasnt been a problem in years. Maybe my first year. Maybe 1 year is the average, and that makes it true for most people?
6. .... Outside of the gym, definitely. I wish I could keep that switch on all day

[GearHeaded]

mechanical tension PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD is king (ie, adding weight to the bar).. bullshit

too many guys think that progressive overload is just adding weight to the bar and that will get you bigger

well lets take an elite powerlifter that squats 900 pounds for a 1 rep max and has 33" quads, do you really think increasing the bar weight to 930 pounds is going to make his quads any bigger ? ummm. no.

if this guy wants 35" quads for whatever reason, adding weight to the bar won't get him there.. instead , if he does 10 rep squats with an RIR of 2 with 495 pounds and works his way up to say a 13 rep squat with an RIR of 2,, its likely gonna cause his quads to get bigger

progressively overloading where it actually matters for hypertrophy is way better then just thinking you need to add weight to the bar