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I'm a big fan of Dorian's style of training, yet here I am watching Big Ramy doing 4 sets of 15-20 each exercise, with essentially light ass weight. Is it that these guys are so geared up that any kind of stimulus will make them grow?
https://youtu.be/7NaSbmXYvxU
I’ve understood it as at this point in a pro like Ramy’s career, he’s not looking to mass as much as maintenance and longevity. What he’s doing now is probably not what he was doing when building that physique.
I believe I fell into into that trap for years where I was copying what I saw Kai doing and was just spinning my wheels.
lol. Kai's reps are like .0004 seconds each
Pretty much this. The “Jay lifts girly weight while Coleman is a monster” thing was famous for this. It takes a shitload of tension to build, but far less to keep. It’s a fair point in favor of the lighter weights later. Look at Cutler now vs. Coleman now. When “light weight babay” turns into “wheelchair hero”, you’re gonna have one hell of a time maintaining anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chark
Mike Israetel has done a lot of stuff on building versus maintaining, and the differences are staggering. You can keep existing tissue with about 30-40% of the stimulus that it takes to build it.
Alright but then how to these guys keep coming in bigger every year?
couple of notes on this
- lots of pros still use lower reps and heavy weight. look at Luke Sandoe for example.. he's incline bench pressing like 455 for a set of 5-6 reps very slow and controlled. he also keeps getting bigger and denser year after year.
- AAS usage favors sarcoplasmic hypertrophy over myofibril hypertrophy.. this is more a 'cell swelling' effect and cosmetic effect. and sarcoplasmic cell swelling is best done with higher reps.
so being AAS usage is going to promote this more efficiently, then it makes sense to train for that effect as well.
- muscle fiber type is different person to person..fast twitch verse slow twitch. if your chest is fast twitch fiber type dominant, then you have more of those type of fibers and thus growing those fibers will result in more overall hypertrophy of the chest. but if your chest is more slow twitch dominant, then you'll want those fibers to be most stimulated.
if your fast twitch dominant you may then want to do heavy loads in the 6-8 rep range . if your slow twitch fiber dominant you may want to do lighter loads in the 20 rep range.
it varies person to person as well as muscle to muscle (I could have fast twitch chest but slow twitch legs)
- effective reps .. theres not a huge difference between hitting failure at reps 7-8 compared to reps 17-18. the only thing that matters is the 3 effective reps at the failure point.
if you have to get to 5 reps with whatever load your using to put enough stimulus on the muscle that you fail at 8, then you basically have about 3 "effective reps" .. but at the same time if you have to hit about 15 reps to fail at 18 reps, you also still have 3 effective reps (it just took you more time to get there).
personally I think most pros train in a variety of rep ranges depending on the exercise, where they are at in their preparations, and what their goal is.
sure Luke Sandoe may be hitting only 6 heavy reps for incline bench press, but what you may not see is the 25 reps he is doing on leg extensions
Interesting. I wish there was a way to know which muscles have more or less of those specific fibers. For me it seems my chest, back, traps grow easily; legs I get sore with heavy reps and drop sets...but arms and shoulders i feel can go on and on and on. This week i actually do more volume for triceps to experiment. I did Yates style training but also added a few burn out sets at the end. They are much sorer than they were the week before.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
I just find it weird that my smaller muscles, like shoulders and arms, seem need more volume than my chest and back.
My arms and shoulders have this kind of endurance, which is probably why they aren't strong points. Calves too. Yesterday I did 9 sets for calves, going heavier and heavier each set until a working set where I did drops set to utter failure. It seems to me that I have to use heavy weights and finish off with drops to get both fibers activated.
Low reps/ HIT works for Dave Henry; didn't do too bad for Yates either.
Basically GH summed it up. It's those assbuster few reps that get you where your going/ growing and how you get to that point is dependent on you, your physiology, and your mentality or preference.
But, I’m assuming that HGH (and particularly with the addition of slin) is myofibril?Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
well without having to get a muscle biopsy, you actually can come up with a pretty good determination. basically through self assessment which each muscle groupQuote:
Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser
lets take quads for example-
you need to pick a more isolation based exercise to start with.. so instead of squats (which uses lots of various muscle groups), start with hack squat or leg extension.
do your working sets all with a heavy load (maintain perfect form) with failure coming around 6-7 reps.
assess the type of pump and muscle contractions you get. assess how hard your actual quads themselves are working. then assess the level of stimulation they got as well as your soreness over the next few days.
if you got a massive pump, your quads were fully activated, you felt them during the whole workout in that 6-7 rep range, and you got sore as hell the next day.. then your likely fast twitch fiber dominant and most your workouts should emphasize that.
now if you don't get a pump at all in those lower rep ranges,, you don't feel your quads and it feels like your joints are doing all the work. you don't really stimulate much quad and you don't get sore. then you likely slow twitch fiber dominant.
so then your next quad workout is going to need to be in the 15-20 rep range. when you do that workout and you do get a pump and good activation etc.. then you've confirmed your slower twitch muscle fiber type..
you can do this for each body part. you may be surprised how different muscle groups are from slow to fast twitch. you may find your shoulder workouts are going to need to be super high reps, like 20-25 .. but then your back or chest may be fast twitched and be more in the 8 rep range.
a couple other notes on this
- if your genetically slow twitch muscle fiber type and your naturally a good marathon runner type . if I get you in a squat rack and have you do heavy 5x5 training, your likely going to be bored and its going to feel super easy and you could do it all day because your never getting a chance to really stimulate your predominant slow twitch muscle fibers. they only thing that will hurt is your knees and lower back..
however, if I get that same person in the squat rack and have him do 10 sets of 25 reps. he is going to be absolute toast. because we are using all his muscle fibers..
wheres the fast twitch muscle fiber type guy will do 5x5 squats and be able to get fully activation of his quads because thats the type of load his muscle fiber type is designed for
- fast twitch muscle fibers fail first and slow twitch fibers take over.. if your mainly fast twitch dominant when you get to your 5 reps and you fail, your not going to be able to squeak out extra reps past that. but if your slow twitch dominant you may find you reach failure (or what you thought was failure) yet your slow twitch fibers keep taking over and you keep getting more and more reps.
if a guy has fast twitch muscle fibers in his pecs and shoulders,, and he benches 315 to failure at about 5 reps. he is 100% done at that 5 reps mark.. whereas a guy with more slow twitch fibers can't even bench 315 at all, and maybe is only at 285, but when he gets to 5 reps and thinks he is at failure, he somehow magically gets 12-15 reps.
thats why rep ranges vary so much person to person and body part to body part
That's why I really enjoy Yates' style because for me those heavy sets get right to the point. But the heaviest I'll go is a weight that makes me fail at 6 reps, then I'll drop almost 30-50% and do another 6 reps.Quote:
Originally Posted by almostgone
I was reading poloquin in regards to people having different CNS that respond different. I turned out to be Serotonin efficient but Gaba deficient. So the style of training he recommends for someone like me is 10 sets of 3, rather than 3 sets of 10. He judges this by if you can complete straight sets or not. For me, if I do straight sets, no matter what I'm doing, I'll get 10 reps the first set, then 8 the next and goes dowe. But strangely enough, I can do the same heavy ass weight for low reps consistently. I can also increase the weight and do the same same reps no problem. Its very weird for me.
This is the test that apparently helps you determine this https://www.bravermantest.com/
I'm a big fan of DC style training and Fortitude training as well . however like most things, its person dependent. but it gets even more complicated then that.. its not only person dependent it could be body part dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by almostgone
heck your shoulders and arms may respond super well to low volume high intensity DC training , but then your legs may respond way better to high volume and high frequency.
so you got to be able to self assess and make adjustments.
this is interesting . also something working hands on with clients over the years I've noticed and I always have to keep trying to drive the point home "save it for when it matters" or "pick your battles" ..Quote:
Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser
so many people are like this, they hit their 10 reps for a non working set, but in the process they zap their energy and power for the actual working sets that matter.
example -- if my working set for bench press is going to be 315 for 5 reps to complete failure .. then I better not be bench pressing 185 for 20 reps as my non working sets.. thats just going to be a waste.
instead, I'll do 135 for 5 reps (even though failure may be at 30 reps), then 155 for 5, then 185 for 5, then 225 for 5, then 265 for 3, then my working set will be 315 for 5.
in this way I'm saving myself for the battle and working sets that actually matter in the rep range I'm focused on for that workout.
HGH and Slin = more IGF .. all in all they are both Sarcoplasmic and Myofibril. your going to put on new tissue as well as blow up existing tissue. satellite cell proliferation is also going to be greatly enhanced. what does that mean ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proximal
well heres an example . 100mg a day of Anadrol for 3 weeks is likely going to 'blow you up' a good 15 pounds. its also mainly just cell swelling thats going on. its cosmetic.
but if your on 4iu of HGH and 30iu of Slin (and thus IGF output is higher) your not going to 'blow up' over night. instead, all the mechanisms for muscle growth and satellite cell stimulus are going to be up regulated. more muscle cell nuclei will be developed..
and yes, all this takes time. it does not happen over night. I generally say give it a good 7-10 months. BUT then when you have all that new machinery in place, more muscle cell nuclei , more satellite cells with muscle building memory developed .. THEN when you get back on cycle and run that 100mg of Anadrol per day , your going to 'blow up' a whole lot more tissue then you could have originally.
thats the benefit of hgh and slin
Interesting. I know slow twitch are smaller than fast twitch, but if you have a ton of slow twitch in your legs and blasting fast twitch, doesn't mean it will grow
fast twitch muscle fibers have more potential for overall growth and size.. most 300 pound pros are going to be fast twitch dominant.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser
but for the average every day person like us , we can only do what is best for us.
so .. IF my quads happen to be very slow twitch fiber dominant. and slow twitch fibers can't grow near to the size of fast twitch fibers, it still would not be good to train only fast twitch fibers for my quads in hopes that they will grow just because fast twitch can get bigger.
if I have 80% more slow twitch fibers , simply getting those fibers bigger all together, even though one on one they are small then fast twitch fibers, I will end up with bigger overall quads because there are simply that much more of them to begin with.
example -
if I have 10 giant iron beams to build a house out of , and that steel is strong as fuk and optimal to build a structure out of ,, yet I also have 100 truck loads worth of lumber and 2x4s , which are not near as optimal and strong as the steel beams .. the fact that I have that much more lumber then steel beams means I'm going to be able to build that much bigger of a house.
the house of lumber is going to be 8000 sq ft. the house of steel beams only may only be 400 sq ft.
so just because one fiber type is bigger and better for hypertrophy you still can only work with what you got the most of.
True. My back responds much better to HIT than say biceps or triceps. Quads and lower back seem to like the 20 rep sets of squats on a dedicated squat day, but overall my legs slso need a dedicated day of extensions, hack squats, reverse hacks, and leg presses on my 45° leg press @ lower reps.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
Like you said, it's a mix and match issue based on the individual.
I think one thing people tend to overlook when evaluating Dante's training, the Mentzer brothers, etc is warming up.
Dante will tell you to do whatever it takes to get you ready for that final ass whooping wiring set and rarely is 2 sets enough.
I also like the fact the Dante prefers the upper end of the rep range for us older farts and perhaps a slightly more frequent pull back on intensity
It just gets too dang easy to get injured as we age.
LOL, all of this training discussion reminds of lifting decades ago when most guys my age were all into GVT. For the ones that were disciplined enough to stick with it and use proper form, they would blow up like a madman.....then there were those that were simply there to get there 100 reps and form be damned. :)
Would have made some epic gym fail content for YouTube if it was around back then!!!
Lots of good info here that has really given me a lot to think about. Thanks fellas.
I was thinking perhaps doing Yates for compound movements but adding one FST-7 exercise at the each of each muscle group.
I think this concept is the best approach and typically how I set up programs .Quote:
Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser
there are multiple ways this can be accomplished. you can do it within the single session workout on each workout. so for example, you train your chest with heavy HIT compounds like incline bench press, overhead press, etc.. then you end the workout with more isolation focus using FST7 or some other intensifier to drive metabolites and blood volume, so like 20 rep drop sets on a pec dec and side laterals.
OR .. you break this up over the micro cycle of training split itself .
so for example . your training split will have 2 phases.
phase 1 - heavy compound and hit focus
workout 1 - push
workout 2 - pull
workout 3 - legs
rest
phase 2 - FST7 or metabolite style training
workout 4 - push
workout 5- pull
workout 6 - legs
rest
repeat phase 1
in this way you accomplish both stimulus over a weeks time, but your giving the stimulus its own day rather then just throwing it at the end of a workout..
and another way to do it. set it uo over a macro cycle
so the first 4 weeks of your macro cycle is all Dorian HIT training with heavy compounds and you try to get stronger.
then at week 5-6 you switch to just FST7 or some other metabolite style stimulus
then at week 7 you deload, and at week 8 you begin week 1 over again
It's interesting you mention that last one because that is what I was thinking to do logically, in order to change things up.
I would do twice a week but when I do HIT, there is no training a second time that week. My muscles are still sore and I doubt my CNS is recovered.
Right now I do
Monday: Back
Tues: Chest Bis
Weds: Off
Thurs: Shoulders Tris
Friday: Legs
Sat + Sun: Off
Doing the research on the neurotransmitter types, Poloquin even states that my type, dopamine dominate, doesn't need tons of volume, but needs tons of intensity. https://medium.com/@StrengthSensei/t...t-a798aecbe187
The above article recommends 10 x 3, but I don't think that is necessary so long as the weight is heavy and TUT is quality contractions. I can do higher reps but I don't feel a deep soreness like I do with heavy weights. BUt when I train just heavy straight sets, I don't get that sore. I'm kind of weird. This combination that I do now, HIT with drop-sets as the final set really does the trick. And I drop set EVERY exercise; whether compound or isolation. I do this to make up for the fact I don't have a training partner, because if I did, I would have him do what Dorian's did lol.
So that's why I think it makes sense to do a HIT workout, then pick an exercise using light weight and knock out 7 sets, 30 sec rest, to get that sarcoplasmic expansion. I always felt however that mixing training in a single session would negate the other kind lol. Silly thought but that's how OCD I can get.
I'm curious as to how many people "lift for the camera". (On YouTube or social media) I imagine a lot of people would rather watch a guy bench 500lbs for 6 reps instead of 400lbs for 12? Maybe not ?
I was forced into high reps low weights after my car accident and I love it. I also do 2 sessions per day (joys of semi-retired) which also helps a lot. Translates into a lot of volume.