Back/Bi Day = 29 sets

This is my monday routine, it usually takes atleast an hour and a half, and im dead after it, but i dont see any way around 29 sets. Monday is bi's/back, tuesday is chest, thursday is legs, and friday is shoulders/tri's...am i over training with this many sets? One thing that concerns me is that the only muscle that is sore the next day is my lower back from deads. am i doing something wrong?

Wide grip pull ups: 2 sets
Close grip pull ups: 2 sets
Bent over rows: 3 sets
Lat pull down: 3 sets
T-bar rows: 3 sets
Straight Bar Curls: 3 sets
Inclined curls: 3 sets
Reverse preacher curl: 3 sets
Shrugs: 4 sets
Dead Lifts: 3 sets

Thats WAY too much IMO, even if you're on a cycle. With this routine your biceps are getting hit with 22 sets. If your gonna do back and bis together Id say no more than 16 sets for back and 6 sets for bis, now this obviously depends on how advanced you are in your training.

This is what Id recommend:

Wide grip chin ups: 3 sets
BB rows: 3 sets
DB rows: 3 sets
tbar rows/cable rows: 3 sets

BB curls: 3 sets
DB curls: 3 sets

If you really want to do deadlifts minus the DB or BB rows from your back routine. This is just an outline of what could be done, I always like to switch up my excersise every other workout, just to hit the muscle group from a different angle.

Very very good advice test, I totally agree with your idea on the volume

Gun, I do this.

Deadlifts x 3

Close grip pullups x 3 (highest resistance of any pullup type, works biceps heavily, and lats quite heavily too)

Wide grip negative pullups x 3

Barbell bent over rows x 3

Incline supinating db curls x 3

Barbell shrugs x 3

I personally find I only need 3 sets of a specific bicep exercise, because the close chins and heavy negatives zap them. I find preachers are absolutely unneccessary after the chins and rows. Rows and pullups provide 6-9 sets to hit the brachs very hard, whilst also indirectly hitting the biceps hard as well through sheer load.

You don't need t-bar rows as well as deads and bb rows. If you don't do deads sometimes, then you can include more rowing exercises. You don't need lat pulldowns, they are not that helpful if you can do pullups. They do alter neural activation patterns, but you don't get the same level of fibre recruitment. Any climber will tell you there is a big difference in strength required to pullup on a cliff than there is to perform a lat pulldown. It is all to do with open/closed chain, closed being pullups and pulldowns being open chain. This doesn't apply to all exercises as some can be both types.

I must admit I am surprised you feel nothing in your bis with this routine. Mine are caned for four days and I have been doing this same routine for 5 weeks. Emphasise eccentric, do drop sets on the incline curls, see if that helps.

Flex... when I do deadlifts how many reps should I be aiming for?

I just wonder cause I've been doing 15-20 reps for squats and deads kinda remind me of squats, big compound exercise utilizing alot of quads...

Or do I stay with like 10x 8x 6x?

Thanks bro

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superballer

Flex... when I do deadlifts how many reps should I be aiming for?

I just wonder cause I've been doing 15-20 reps for squats and deads kinda remind me of squats, big compound exercise utilizing alot of quads...

Or do I stay with like 10x 8x 6x?

Thanks bro

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"Most" people grow best from high reps in Squats... low reps in Deads

As shown in DC training, etc.

I like to give my back a day of it's own. I should clarify, though, my back routing consist of traps, rear delts, lower, mid and upper back exercises. I can't do biceps after words cause I can barley move.

20 sets total is a lot. What you should do is pick out the exercises you think are the most productive (curl grip chins, deadlifts, db rows, bb rows, etc) and focus on them. Go heavy with good form, no more then 10 reps I'd say.

Back can be a harder muscle to work properly becasue if you're not careful you can start to use too much of your biceps and not your lats/back.

Keep the reps lower on deadlifts than squats. With deadlifts, although you are using the quads, it is nothing compared to how much you use them when you do squats. They help you deadlift, but they will not fatigue from it.

As for the back/biceps type of split, it doesn't matter if you are absolutely knackered from your back routine by the time you get to your biceps. That means you only need a few bicep sets to toast them after the hard back workout. I personally use back exercises to work my biceps because the huge weight involved acts as a great stimulator for growth. I don't isolate biceps as it has proven to be a waste of time for me in the past, which is supported by the compound vs. isolation theory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Testsubject

Thats WAY too much IMO, even if you're on a cycle. With this routine your biceps are getting hit with 22 sets. If your gonna do back and bis together Id say no more than 16 sets for back and 6 sets for bis, now this obviously depends on how advanced you are in your training.

This is what Id recommend:

Wide grip chin ups: 3 sets
BB rows: 3 sets
DB rows: 3 sets
tbar rows/cable rows: 3 sets

BB curls: 3 sets
DB curls: 3 sets

If you really want to do deadlifts minus the DB or BB rows from your back routine. This is just an outline of what could be done, I always like to switch up my excersise every other workout, just to hit the muscle group from a different angle.

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alright, i'll throw the preachers out, that will help. And no, i'm not on a cycle, i have alot of natural potential to reach before i even consider a cycle, plus im 20 years old, so thats not going to be an option for me for ATLEAST 5 years, whether i reach my natural potential or not.

I'll do barbell rows and dead lifts. Could i throw out the T-bar rows instead of the dumbell rows? a wider grip for rows hits my rhombs alot harder that close grip (t-bar).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flexor

Very very good advice test, I totally agree with your idea on the volume

Gun, I do this.

Deadlifts x 3

Close grip pullups x 3 (highest resistance of any pullup type, works biceps heavily, and lats quite heavily too)

Wide grip negative pullups x 3

Barbell bent over rows x 3

Incline supinating db curls x 3

Barbell shrugs x 3

I personally find I only need 3 sets of a specific bicep exercise, because the close chins and heavy negatives zap them. I find preachers are absolutely unneccessary after the chins and rows. Rows and pullups provide 6-9 sets to hit the brachs very hard, whilst also indirectly hitting the biceps hard as well through sheer load.

You don't need t-bar rows as well as deads and bb rows. If you don't do deads sometimes, then you can include more rowing exercises. You don't need lat pulldowns, they are not that helpful if you can do pullups. They do alter neural activation patterns, but you don't get the same level of fibre recruitment. Any climber will tell you there is a big difference in strength required to pullup on a cliff than there is to perform a lat pulldown. It is all to do with open/closed chain, closed being pullups and pulldowns being open chain. This doesn't apply to all exercises as some can be both types.

I must admit I am surprised you feel nothing in your bis with this routine. Mine are caned for four days and I have been doing this same routine for 5 weeks. Emphasise eccentric, do drop sets on the incline curls, see if that helps.

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Actually flexor, i am a climber as well. However, my passion for lifting is far greater than climbing. That is why i lift for mass instead of strength. Climbers generally want to stay as small and light as possible. When you are climbing you use a great amount of lats to pull you up, but that also is only of secondary importance. Grip and forearms come into play alot more.

So this is what im looking at now i think. I like to start with lats because i want them to grow more than any muscle. If im throwing out the pull downs, i'm going to add weight to my pull ups. Ive been doing 3 sets of 15 for wide grip pull ups, but i think the reps are too high, so some weight will fix that. Also i am loyal to straight bar curls. I get 'wrist splints' (for lack of a better word) from doing straight bar, but i still do it because i see the best results with it.

Wide Grip pull ups x 3
Close grip pull ups x 3
Barbell Bent Over Rows x 3
Dumbell rows x 3
Straight Bar Curl x 2
Inclined sup curls x 2 (drop sets)
Dead Lifts x 3
Shrugs x 4

This is still 23 sets for the day, but 4 of those are trap sets and 3 sets are lower back. As far as getting sore, the only muscles that ever really get sore on me are my legs and my lower back. I don't know why this is, my diet hasn't been great since ive come home for break from college, so that could be it, plus im not taking anything right now. I guess im just waiting to go back to school in a week to resume my diet and start my supplements. Hopefully i'll see some change with that. Thanks alot for the input fellas.

Good luck, I'm sure you will feel ill afterwards :lol:

Its a very intensive, but very effective workout.

Could someone point explain:

Incline supinating db curls x 3

I'm writing up my routine right now, and would like to include them..... google didn't help much.

I should clarify that it is the "supinating" that confuses me.

Sit down on an incline bench. Grab the dumbells at your sides with your palms facing in. Start to curls like you would doing hammer curls. On your way up start to rotate your palms towards you. By the time you get to the top of your ROM your pinky finger should be pointing at your shoulder, or your palm facing outward as much as possible. Do the same thing on the way down. It should be one continous motion rather than rotating your wrist all at once. This might have been a little confusing, hopefully it helps though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flexor

Keep the reps lower on deadlifts than squats. With deadlifts, although you are using the quads, it is nothing compared to how much you use them when you do squats. They help you deadlift, but they will not fatigue from it.

As for the back/biceps type of split, it doesn't matter if you are absolutely knackered from your back routine by the time you get to your biceps. That means you only need a few bicep sets to toast them after the hard back workout. I personally use back exercises to work my biceps because the huge weight involved acts as a great stimulator for growth. I don't isolate biceps as it has proven to be a waste of time for me in the past, which is supported by the compound vs. isolation theory.

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i agree fully w/ the bicep work being taken on by back work indirectly for greater growth. my back and bi routine consists of NO direct biceps work, i will start w/ underhand wide chins then lat pulldowns then curl grip BB rows and on to underhand grip seated cable rows, no bicep work needed after all that weight, occasionally I will do ONE set of heavy cheating BB curls just to burn them out but only ONE if any

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BITTAPART2

i agree fully w/ the bicep work being taken on by back work indirectly for greater growth. my back and bi routine consists of NO direct biceps work, i will start w/ underhand wide chins then lat pulldowns then curl grip BB rows and on to underhand grip seated cable rows, no bicep work needed after all that weight, occasionally I will do ONE set of heavy cheating BB curls just to burn them out but only ONE if any

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Nice routine bro, we see exactly eye to eye. I know a few people that never directly train arms and they are doing more than fine....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GunTotingHipGangster

Sit down on an incline bench. Grab the dumbells at your sides with your palms facing in. Start to curls like you would doing hammer curls. On your way up start to rotate your palms towards you. By the time you get to the top of your ROM your pinky finger should be pointing at your shoulder, or your palm facing outward as much as possible. Do the same thing on the way down. It should be one continous motion rather than rotating your wrist all at once. This might have been a little confusing, hopefully it helps though

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Well explained.

I will also add that if you supinate before you reach 90 degrees flexion of the elbow, the long head is activated more, and if you supinate after 90 degrees all the way to 120 it is the medial head. However, it is always best to supinate lower down in the movement to avoid it becoming a hammer curl. The medial bicep will get hit hard enough by the static supination between 90-120 degrees, so supinate lower down and just maintain the supination to hit the medial head.

Thanks... that makes sense. I threw it in my workout, it will be good to switch up between regular standing hammer curls.

Can't wait to try them!