Bloodwork mid cycle. Feedback please

[Notpretty]

Just got bw back and want feedback on my numbers

(Don’t know why attachment are sideways...sorry)

Week 8...want to go 16???
500mg Test E/w
Hcg 3 times a week
Liquidex
Dutasteride

Supplements: fish oil, niacin, vitamin D, low dose aspirin

Well the test score 4516 is big but too big?

Need to reduce dutasteride

Lipids?

Anything else jump out?

[GearHeaded]

500mg Test E/w

Liquidex
Dutasteride

sorry , just want to make a side note point on your post. hope you don't mind (will be happy to help with blood work after this post though)

so there are dozens of steroids we can choose to use to cycle (wither its your first cycle or your 50th).. of all those dozens of steroids there is ONE prominent steroid that converts to both estrogen and dht at a fairly high level. this is Testosterone. being this one steroid is the one that does this, it makes sense to run it as your steroid for the PURPOSE of getting some estrogen and DHT conversion. thats its job.

so why are you taking a steroid thats primary attribute is to convert to estrogen and DHT , and then take an estrogen and dht blocker !!??

if you wanted to block estrogen and dht , why didn't you run one of the many 100 other steroids that don't convert to these things to begin with ??
rather then taking a steroid that does this just to take two other drugs to block what its supposed to do in the first place

sorry , couldn't resist throwing that out there brother

[GearHeaded]

was your cholesterol profile out of range before your cycle ? if your HDL was not low before cycle, but is now, its not likely from the 500mg of test your taking , its likely from the AI Liquidex. be nice to see your E2 levels. having low serum estrogen will lower your HDL, as the more Estrogen you have to pass through the liver the more HDL it will produce

[kelkel]

Zero need for Dutasteride unless you have BPH issues. Dutasteride is a type 1 & 2 enzyme blocker and can block up to 90% of DHT and it's obviously doing one hell of a job. But again, it's a job that uncalled for at this time. If nothing else drastically reduce your dose of it.

But your test is without question quality gear!

[Notpretty]

Zero need for Dutasteride unless you have BPH issues. Dutasteride is a type 1 & 2 enzyme blocker and can block up to 90% of DHT and it's obviously doing one hell of a job. But again, it's a job that uncalled for at this time. If nothing else drastically reduce your dose of it.

But your test is without question quality gear!

First time taking dutasteride. I’m losing my hair. That the only reason I tried it. It’s way too low. I agree. If I want to keep my hair, is there a better option. I hate that propicia sticky crap topically applied.

To the prior response. I didn’t think you wanted estrogen to go up due to all the issues that presents?? My estradiol is in range.?.? I thought that was the goal.

Also, my lipids rarely change significantly wether at TRT dose or at this level of test e. Tren f’d up my HDL once but it came right back to my typical 30-40 range. Generally my tri-glycerides are high and always are. Genetic...father has it too.

Is 4K+ Test score normal given 500 test e? I’m new to the LC/MS test show over 1500.

[EDCG19]

First time taking dutasteride. I’m losing my hair. That the only reason I tried it. It’s way too low. I agree. If I want to keep my hair, is there a better option. I hate that propicia sticky crap topically applied.

https://www.hairlossrevolution.com/b...r-hair-growth/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5406845/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289931/

[EDCG19]

I'm confused on something with your blood work though. Your red blood cells etc.. are really good for being on 500mg of test, mine are all over the charts and it makes me wonder why. You're running much more test than i have ever run but somehow a little boost in test and my hema rises

[Notpretty]

My RBC do fluctuate. This test is affected by a donation of blood done prior to the cycle...that all I can think of. My hematocrit goes high occasionally and I donate to reduce it.

[EDCG19]

Well out of curiosity how high have you seen the hemoglobin and hematrocit before?

[Notpretty]

My hematocrit was 52.8 once. Don’t know hemoglobin at that time...remember it was high though. Not at home to look up. My current 16.7 is leaning high...in range though.

Kelkel.... anything scare you for 4-6 more weeks of same...without dutasteride. I cut it completely. Also yes the gear is working but is 4516 on testosterone dangerous, about right, low, high? Of course I mean generally...each person is different.

FYI my bw pattern is I do not change much in most all areas given various dosages and type of gear. I took 600 test C and 300 Tren a week for 8 weeks and my numbers were basically the same. My HDL tanked to 16. 4 weeks later it was 36. Scared me a bit frankly. I hear Tren can crash HDL. Kelkel said that anyway.

[kelkel]

Just dropping your dht even lower unnecessarily, which may occur at the current dose. Consider switching to low dose Finasteride instead. It's a type 2 blocker and works at about a 70% rate. For hair the normal dose would be about 1 mg per day.

Your T level is where is should be. Be happy about that and eat hard and train right.

[Notpretty]

Just dropping your dht even lower unnecessarily, which may occur at the current dose. Consider switching to low dose Finasteride instead. It's a type 2 blocker and works at about a 70% rate. For hair the normal dose would be about 1 mg per day.

Your T level is where is should be. Be happy about that and eat hard and train right.

Thanks...Great feedback all!!

Last question for Kelkel. Is it true that liquidex can lower HDL. What he (guy above) said makes some sense. I take about half the suggested dose for liquidex and found it keeps my E2 in range. I could reduce it more since Gyno/symptoms for me are not too problematic but have occurred on cycle. Is there anything else I can do to increase HDL. Again I’m taking fish oil, niacin, NAC. Eating right with occasional violations. 51 6’ 223 currently 17-18% body fat by visual guess. Training all body parts 1 time a week but intensely.

I said last question but one more. What is your theory on cardio when bulking vs when cutting. At 51 I’m finding it much harder to keep body fat down. I know some view cardio as anti bulking or catabolic. But, I feel some cardio is needed for cardiovascular health especially for a 51 year old with low HDL and genetically moderately high triglycerides.

Thanks in advance

[kelkel]

You're referring to Gearheaded's comment on HDL I assume. Yes, he's on point and one of the brightest guys I've met in the AAS world and I've been in it longer than some here have been alive. Take his advice seriously.

E2 doesn't need to be in range. Your testosterone surely isn't. If not gyno prone use as little AI as possible or none if not symptomatic. If gyno is an issue just run Nolvadex @ 10 mgs daily to eliminate any issues.

Re HDL you're probably not taking enough NAC to really help with it. Has to be a high dose around 3600 from memory. When it comes to Fish Oil it should be around 2000 total between EPA and DHA to significantly help triglycerides. With Niacin it need to be a product such as "Slo-Niacin" or "Endur-Acin" to be effective, not standard niacin. Another great product is Red Yeast Rice, but it has to be from over-seas where the natural statins have not beeen removed like the FDA did to ours over here.

Read this when you have the time:

https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...xperiment.html

I'm really not the cardio guy but surely minor cardio work will not hurt you. Calories lost can be easily made up at the table.

[Chrisp83TRT]

First time taking dutasteride. I’m losing my hair. That the only reason I tried it. It’s way too low. I agree. If I want to keep my hair, is there a better option. I hate that propicia sticky crap topically applied.

To the prior response. I didn’t think you wanted estrogen to go up due to all the issues that presents?? My estradiol is in range.?.? I thought that was the goal.

Also, my lipids rarely change significantly wether at TRT dose or at this level of test e. Tren f’d up my HDL once but it came right back to my typical 30-40 range. Generally my tri-glycerides are high and always are. Genetic...father has it too.

Is 4K+ Test score normal given 500 test e? I’m new to the LC/MS test show over 1500.

I look at it like this , if your hair was falling out before jumping in to this lifestyle and now you want to save your hair ... I'll be honest bro ,
Take the L on this .

Adding DHT blockers defeats the whole purpose of running gear.
Focus more on your health and gains.


I understand the need to keep your hair as it's important to us men along with libido but be honest with yourself .

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

[kelkel]

Adding DHT blockers defeats the whole purpose of running gear.

Unless you have BPH

[Notpretty]

Unless you have BPH

No BPH. Had it once though but it was related to a urinary tract infection...got inflamed. Two weeks and psa dropped from 17.8 (not a typo) to 1.3. Scary, but a freak deal. Been in range ever since.

So, I’ll cut back the AI. Dump the DHT blocker, if gyno 10 mgs nolvadex which I do have. I do take enduracin. I take 2400 mgs fish oil and 1200 mgs NAC. I’ll look into red yeast and read the link you added. And pray my hair loss doesn’t increase rapidly. It’s been a steady decline for 4-5 years regardless of propecia so maybe it’s likely just genetic and there’s not much I can do. Getting old sucks at times. Modify this lift, shoulder not good today, wrist needs a wrap. Wa wa waaa.. Anyway Thanks!

Also thanks to gearhead!! I’ve developed a trust with Kelkel’s comments over the years so it’s great having that sense with gearhead too. There’s just so much BS on the web so it’s hard to know what to believe and trust.

Thanks all!!

[GearHeaded]

. I didn’t think you wanted estrogen to go up due to all the issues that presents?? My estradiol is in range.?.? I thought that was the goal. .

keeping E in "normal" range is great for "normal" people or for guys who are on TRT (the goal of which is to have normal test levels and not low levels). this is completely different thing then someone who is running a cycle of steroids who is far from "normal" .. you really think those blood test ranges of 'normal' were designed around someone that has Androgen levels 20 times higher then a normal person.. no.

on cycle, your androgen levels go up to astronomical levels (your no longer normal) . your body is designed to have its E levels also go up at the same time (at least with test). therefore the "normal" range no longer applies to you.

again, trying to keep E in range as a normal person , natural or on TRT , makes total sense . but its a futile thing to try and do that when your whole goal of running a test only cycle is to sky rocket your androgen levels.

Estrogen is supposed to go up to higher ranges when your Test levels rise up off the charts.. estrogen is very synergistic with elevated androgens. Estrogen becomes a very very anabolic hormone when androgens are elevated (I've said this time and time again, when cattle are injected with Androgens to beef them up for slaughter, they are also injected with a ton of Estrogen to make the growth actually happen .. with 'only' the androgens they would not grow).

I personally don't see the point in running test only cycles yet try and keep estrogen in a normal persons range. why not just run something that does not convert to estrogen in the first place (like most steroids) ?

the reason guys in the off season will run high dosages of Test to their cycles is because test is one of the best compounds at converting to estrogen and thus helping with overall muscle and mass growth. if your not looking for that synergistic effect of elevated estrogen and androgens to help put on size, then theres really no point in running a test only cycle (especially if your just going to block what test does in the first place).

I could write an entire book about this so I won't go on and on. just wanted to say blocking estrogen to that degreee and blocking DHT (the two things test are designed to do) seems a little bit pointless to me. and seems if thats your goal you'd be better off running a steroid that does not convert to estrogen or DHT to begin with. why cycle with "test only" when you don't want the test only effects.
just a thought


edit : I'm exaggerating my thoughts here to a degree just to drive home a point . of course having some estrogen control and not getting gyno etc. is a good thing on cycle.

[kelkel]

No BPH. Had it once though but it was related to a urinary tract infection...got inflamed. Two weeks and psa dropped from 17.8 (not a typo) to 1.3. Scary, but a freak deal. Been in range ever since.

So, I’ll cut back the AI. Dump the DHT blocker, if gyno 10 mgs nolvadex which I do have. I do take enduracin. I take 2400 mgs fish oil and 1200 mgs NAC. I’ll look into red yeast and read the link you added. And pray my hair loss doesn’t increase rapidly. It’s been a steady decline for 4-5 years regardless of propecia so maybe it’s likely just genetic and there’s not much I can do. Getting old sucks at times. Modify this lift, shoulder not good today, wrist needs a wrap. Wa wa waaa.. Anyway Thanks!

Also thanks to gearhead!! I’ve developed a trust with Kelkel’s comments over the years so it’s great having that sense with gearhead too. There’s just so much BS on the web so it’s hard to know what to believe and trust.

Thanks all!!

Much appreciated NP. I'll say thanks for both myself and GH.

[kelkel]

I could write an entire book about this

And you should. The "Modern Underground Steroid Handbook."

[GearHeaded]

I'm confused on something with your blood work though. Your red blood cells etc.. are really good for being on 500mg of test, mine are all over the charts and it makes me wonder why. You're running much more test than i have ever run but somehow a little boost in test and my hema rises

just a side note here - OP's hematocrit etc. may be low right now also due to the fact that he is keeping his DHT levels low on this cycle .. I believe there may be a direct connection between DHT and erythropoietin production (the more you produce the more red blood cells you produce).

however I'd have to go back and look into that more . its an interesting connection if it exists

[EDCG19]

just a side note here - OP's hematocrit etc. may be low right now also due to the fact that he is keeping his DHT levels low on this cycle .. I believe there may be a direct connection between DHT and erythropoietin production (the more you produce the more red blood cells you produce).

however I'd have to go back and look into that more . its an interesting connection if it exists

na thats not it, i am having trouble understanding the whole RBC thing
I saw some blood work on another source board and this kid is running 500mg test, deca and a couple of other things what i didn't understand why.. his hemaglobin/hematrocit was at 43 and like 15-16 for hemaglobin
I jump my dose up to 300mg and I'm already in the 55 range and 19 for hemaglobin
What is the difference i dont know? This guy wasn't building thicker/heavier blood but i am somehow?

[GearHeaded]

na thats not it, i am having trouble understanding the whole RBC thing
I saw some blood work on another source board and this kid is running 500mg test, deca and a couple of other things what i didn't understand why.. his hemaglobin/hematrocit was at 43 and like 15-16 for hemaglobin
I jump my dose up to 300mg and I'm already in the 55 range and 19 for hemaglobin
What is the difference i dont know? This guy wasn't building thicker/heavier blood but i am somehow?

do you happen to be a Caucasian (white guy) of upper/Northern European decent ? I've read if so your more genetically pre disposed to the elevated hematocrit levels (genetics is 90% of it) ,. also, do you currently live at higher elevation (or have you) , like 4000+ feet above sea level. if so your levels are also going to be much higher then other guys that do not

[GearHeaded]

athletes will purposely train at high elevation to raise their RBC . the US Olympic training center is at 6500 feet above sea level for a reason..
people use hyperbaraic chambers when living at sea level, to simulate living at high elevation in order to increase their RBC

[EDCG19]

do you happen to be a Caucasian (white guy) of upper/Northern European decent ? I've read if so your more genetically pre disposed to the elevated hematocrit levels (genetics is 90% of it) ,. also, do you currently live at higher elevation (or have you) , like 4000+ feet above sea level. if so your levels are also going to be much higher then other guys that do not

Yea, i know thats it but still
I'm at higher elevation since im in the mountains like every week and im going outdoors again tomorrow so high elevation. I'm not northern European though..

look, i dont get it though, high elevation? the guy is running 500mg per test e per week, why is his hematrocit at 43? Its the oxygen thing and you body or your liver produces more oxygen right so with higher red blood cells i should be good? Well, sorry for being pissed off but if my blood is full of oxygen than why am i breathing so fucking heavy climbing a mountain up hill? Thinner air or is my cardio that wack and climbing these mountain areas really takes a ton out of me
Do i need an oxygen mask when climbing or something i dont get it!

[GearHeaded]

lack of oxygen from the lungs (wither from high elevation, restricted breathing, etc.) will cause the kidneys to produce more epo and thus more RBC to make up for your lack of oxygen.. going up high in the mountains every weekend and hiking will cause even more RBC production because your putting your self in a stress of having less oxygen via the lungs.

having sleep apnea can also elevate your RBC (again because its restricting breathing and oxygen from the lungs)

as for the guy with low Hematocrit, despite running a bunch of gear, don't envy him too much.. he could simply have a bleeding stomach ulcer and thats keeping his levels to be low (or some other health condition).
not being able to get your RBC levels up is also a problem . I'd rather be high then low

[EDCG19]

lack of oxygen from the lungs (wither from high elevation, restricted breathing, etc.) will cause the kidneys to produce more epo and thus more RBC to make up for your lack of oxygen.. going up high in the mountains every weekend and hiking will cause even more RBC production because your putting your self in a stress of having less oxygen via the lungs.

having sleep apnea can also elevate your RBC (again because its restricting breathing and oxygen from the lungs)

as for the guy with low Hematocrit, despite running a bunch of gear, don't envy him too much.. he could simply have a bleeding stomach ulcer and thats keeping his levels to be low (or some other health condition).
not being able to get your RBC levels up is also a problem . I'd rather be high then low

Ok, thanks man. I appreciate your time on this
I have been "concerned" on running more gear because my levels are already high enough and I donate often. Frankly, I shouldn't say this but the best workout I've ever had was when my hematrocit was at 57% and my hemoglobin was at about 20 because the quality of the lifting was so much different with more oxygen in my blood, when i donated a week later ever since than all of my gym sessions have just been different
I end up feeling a difference between 50% and 57% at one point one of my highest levels i've ever seen and it did get me a little worried but still not a serious issue as im living in higher elevation and there is thinner air out here so not sure why im complaining, its one of those things you hear about. high red blood cells is bad

[kelkel]

as for the guy with low Hematocrit, despite running a bunch of gear, don't envy him too much.. he could simply have a bleeding stomach ulcer and thats keeping his levels to be low (or some other health condition).

Lovely thought!

[Notpretty]

Should my DHT return normal fast or is this going to take time? Days, weeks, months? I’ve stopped all dutasteride.

And I’m stopping the liquidex until I sense gyno signs.

[kelkel]

4-5 weeks from memory. But your dht will begin to rise in correlation to less inhibition via the 5-AR inhibition of dutasteride.

[Notpretty]

just a side note here - OP's hematocrit etc. may be low right now also due to the fact that he is keeping his DHT levels low on this cycle .. I believe there may be a direct connection between DHT and erythropoietin production (the more you produce the more red blood cells you produce).

however I'd have to go back and look into that more . its an interesting connection if it exists

I wanted to reply to the above because I stopped all DHT blockers at week 8 based on the comments. And I just did a cheap BW test to check lipids and basic panel at week 16. The hematocrit jumped to 51.6 on week 16. I was 48.9 week 8. So that’s follows your thought on blood cell production relative to DHT. Conclusive...not really but a piece of data.

[Notpretty]

FYI...to Gearhead and Kelkek

Your advice helped. As the DHT and estrogen rose from week 8-16, I saw increasing mass gains steadily...Especially in 12-16. Gyno is fine. Hair is about the same. So I feel like I wasted a good 8 weeks of gear as my results were low.

Live and learn I guess. Never hesitate to say hey dumb€#$$. I am learning and want to learn.

So I am going off cycle and in my trt dose for 12 weeks. I’m considering what cycle to try next. A concern I have is my HDL. It’s always low...TRT or on Cycle. Tren drives it down for me. Two times I took Tren it dropped...16, 24. Bounced back when I stopped Tren to 36 and 38. I never see 40+ HDL. Thought on gear choices given my hdl.