HCG, another approach

[roid_rage]

read the link.. pretty interesting... This is the PCT protocol that William LLewelyn has recommended to me...

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

[legobricks]

read the link.. pretty interesting... This is the PCT protocol that William LLewelyn has recommended to me...

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

Interesting. I wont disagree that HCG cant be used during PCT or during cycle but should not be run alone for PCT as in HCG only for PCT will actually be supressive to your HPTA. For a simple test only cycle i believe HCG is def. overkill at restoring HPTA function. Test and deca , test tren , HCG will speed recovery as they are harsh compounds and recovery is usually harder after cycling them.

[roid_rage]

thanx bro! Now, did you see the results? from 0.7 to 6.2 man.. that was what It really got my atencion, that LH really went to the roof!!

And yes... I totally agree that HCG never ever has to be use alone as a PCT protocol.

[one8nine]

Copy and paste it for the guys that only access this site via smart phone please

[roid_rage]

Copy and paste it for the guys that only access this site via smart phone please

dude, its

Methotds
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal
men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone
cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks,
and then were treated simultaneously with a combined
regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) (2500
IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d)
and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the
HPGA

Results.
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg
(p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9
(p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb
to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum
chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C
decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02).
Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total
testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior
to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-
week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7
(p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The
mean values after treatment with the combined
regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve
lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood
accompanied by side effects caused by continuous
uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia,
testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction
[oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced
HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in
most patients that often require an extensive period of
considerable duration for normalization. This prevents
most if not all individuals from cycling off these
medications due to the adverse impact of this state on
their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The
protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful
in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen
cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to
determine if these results can be duplicated in HIVpositive
subjects.

The results if you try to copy paste them come up all fuc* up... but basically LH went from 0.7 to 6.2 being normal 4.5...

[one8nine]

I wanna know how the hell they got the okay to do this study. I mean the study is taking 19 guys and giving them test and deca then pct. What does that apply to in the legal real world. I mean the only legal juice I know is hrt and you don't stop that for pct.

[legobricks]

thanx bro! Now, did you see the results? from 0.7 to 6.2 man.. that was what It really got my atencion, that LH really went to the roof!!
And yes... I totally agree that HCG never ever has to be use alone as a PCT protocol.

Remember that our HPTA works by a negative feedback loop.

With that being said, ANY substance supressive to our endogeneous or natural test production will usually in turn increase LH in order to restore natural test production again. your body naturally will do this anyways after a cycle due to it trying to restore homeostasis but by taking a mildly supressive compound will only keep you suppressed which defeats the purpose of PCT correct? While adding compounds on top of that will help to keep us from being completely supressed and bring up our natural test production again. Damn i dont know if im even making sense im so fricken tired!

[roid_rage]

Remember that our HPTA works by a negative feedback loop.

With that being said, ANY substance supressive to our endogeneous or natural test production will usually in turn increase LH in order to restore natural test production again. your body naturally will do this anyways after a cycle due to it trying to restore homeostasis but by taking a mildly supressive compound will only keep you suppressed which defeats the purpose of PCT correct? While adding compounds on top of that will help to keep us from being completely supressed and bring up our natural test production again. Damn i dont know if im even making sense im so fricken tired!

Not really man.. jahhaha did not get this..."With that being said, ANY substance supressive to our endogeneous or natural test production will usually in turn increase LH in order to restore natural test production again. "

The whole reason of the hcg is to force the lledyng cells to produce test... in oder words, to fool your body, since there is no LH being produce at the time... hcg will only shut your test production once your LH levels are back to normal... correct me if i'm wrong please...

[legobricks]

Not really man.. jahhaha did not get this..."With that being said, ANY substance supressive to our endogeneous or natural test production will usually in turn increase LH in order to restore natural test production again. "

The whole reason of the hcg is to force the lledyng cells to produce test... in oder words, to fool your body, since there is no LH being produce at the time... hcg will only shut your test production once your LH levels are back to normal... correct me if i'm wrong please...

i told ya i cant really think right now

I can tell you that once the test is out of your system (ie. when u start PCT) your body is already back onthe path to recovery. We just need to aid it along in order to make sure we restore our normal HPTA function. Im pretty sure that LH is still being produced if your mildly supressed as its your body's way to kind of fight back and try to bring your natty test levels back to normal ie homeostasis.....Unless your HPTA is completely shut down and you are not producing GnRH from your hypothalamus then your pituitory gland will not release LH which cannot stimulate your testes for test production. HCG i believe mimics Leutinizing Hormone which starts the production/release of testosterone which can help restore size from atrophy but to high of doses or on for to long has negative effects and can hinder natural prodcution IMO. Does that make more sense?

[roid_rage]

i told ya i cant really think right now

I can tell you that once the test is out of your system (ie. when u start PCT) your body is already back onthe path to recovery. We just need to aid it along in order to make sure we restore our normal HPTA function. Im pretty sure that LH is still being produced if your mildly supressed as its your body's way to kind of fight back and try to bring your natty test levels back to normal. On 100% complete shutdown or when your body recognizes that there is too much hormones in the system yes it shutsdown as there is no need to produce test when you have an abundance already. I think that being mildly surpressed and still having a libido may have something to do with LH as its just as responsible for arousal as test is which could show that LH is still being produces while just supressed. Just my humble guess tho Im not to big up on HCG as i dont feel it is nessecary for most cycles..beneficial yeah, mandatory, no.

This is what I think and my opinion:

We do agree, as soonest the exess of exogenous test is out of your body, your body itself starts to produce test... Well, before it produces test, it should produce LH. I do agree also, that if you are midly suppress, your body still produces LH, wich will leed to produce test... the whole thing remaings in when and where is your body totally suppress. I think, that after 12 weeks (as is shown in the study) your LH production is 0. That means that your body pretty much is not producing LH. (not talking about test here). Why is so important HCG ? well, with your LH being = 0, there is no test being produce at that time, AI will help to bust it up, by bloking strogens, but what is really going to kick your test production is the HCG, why? cause is telling the lledyng cell, DAAMM BRO!! MOVE YOUR ASS AND MAKE SOME TEST BITCH!! HCG is pure LH (well actually is not, but your body thinks it is, and that's whats important) So your testex get full with LH, get strong, tell the lledyng cell to produce test and they do. What do we get from it?... to reduce the time untill your testex get strong and full of lh to produce test, nothing more... your body, of course as you stated before, will start by his own the homeostasis process... but hcg will help speed it up (and by that, retain as much muscles possible, skip depression etc etc etc)... I say HCG is suppressive as long as your body has enough LH, if not, it's not a suppresive compound.

So my point of view, and experience, I dont like to take any risks, I also got before through the depression and lossing muscle as hell process, and being on clomid... Since I used HCG in my post cycles, I dont go throuhg that anymore, for ME, and this is for ME. It has turn into a mandatory.

[one8nine]

put simply:
if you take too much hcg , your test will get too high, then suppress again.

[roid_rage]

put simply:
if you take too much hcg, your test will get too high, then suppress again.

hahahahahhahahha... pretty much yeah... all that f*** writing (and is not easy for me, being english my second lenguage) for nothing.

[Thunder Monkey]

I hope Im not hijacking this.. But I'm doing a cycle of Test-E 250mg x2/week (Monday and Thursday). My doc gave me 2 vials of 10,000 iu HCG . He told me to start taking 500iu (.5 ml) every three days (Tuesday and Friday) starting weeks 7-12, then after I finish to continue HCG 500iu E3D only for 2 more weeks before I start PCT. During PCT has wants me on 500iu ED of HCG for 3 weeks with Clomid/Nolva.

He stated that there is nothing wrong with your body producing a little of its own test during a cycle, but he wants my natural test levels back to normal asap post cycle. I'm still a student of the game so I am following posts like this real close.

Good info.
TM

[one8nine]

I hope Im not hijacking this.. But I'm doing a cycle of Test-E 250mg x2/week (Monday and Thursday). My doc gave me 2 vials of 10,000 iu HCG . He told me to start taking 500iu (.5 ml) every three days (Tuesday and Friday) starting weeks 7-12, then after I finish to continue HCG 500iu E3D only for 2 more weeks before I start PCT. During PCT has wants me on 500iu ED of HCG for 3 weeks with Clomid/Nolva.

He stated that there is nothing wrong with your body producing a little of its own test during a cycle, but he wants my natural test levels back to normal asap post cycle. I'm still a student of the game so I am following posts like this real close.

Good info.
TM

i like it all except i wouldnt do hcg more than 500iu e3d, and clomid/nolva is a weak pct

my pct
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4111013

[Thunder Monkey]

Too weak for Test only cycle?

For PCT I've got:
Tamoxifen Citrate (This is Nolva correct?)
Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid)

Maybe I could inquire about, Exemestane?

Thanks.

[one8nine]

Too weak for Test only cycle?

For PCT I've got:
Tamoxifen Citrate (This is Nolva correct?)
Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid)

Maybe I could inquire about, Exemestane?

Thanks.

yes its nolva
yes you should add it 50mg ed
that pct is serm/serm, theres no ai
serm blocks estrogen
ai prevents/slows its creation
nolva should be used 20mg-40mg daily, clomid 25mg daily MAX

[roid_rage]

I hope Im not hijacking this.. But I'm doing a cycle of Test-E 250mg x2/week (Monday and Thursday). My doc gave me 2 vials of 10,000 iu HCG . He told me to start taking 500iu (.5 ml) every three days (Tuesday and Friday) starting weeks 7-12, then after I finish to continue HCG 500iu E3D only for 2 more weeks before I start PCT. During PCT has wants me on 500iu ED of HCG for 3 weeks with Clomid/Nolva.

He stated that there is nothing wrong with your body producing a little of its own test during a cycle, but he wants my natural test levels back to normal asap post cycle. I'm still a student of the game so I am following posts like this real close.

Good info.
TM

Bro, If our body could produce for its own endogenous test during cycle, why do you think PCT would be for? What hcg does during cycle is to full up your testex with LH, wich will leed to produce test... now what's not going to happen is to avoid the negative feed back, in other words, your body wont produce natural test faster than if you werent using hcg, What it will do is keep your testex strong enough to produce test as soonest they can, (when your body is free from exogenous test), that's when the pct comes, now your balls will be full of lh, since they havent stop producing during the cycle, What I dont see why is why does he wants you to keep using hcg during pct, when the objective of the hcg has been achive during cycle... I think that will be too much and It could lead to suppression... But then again, I'm not a doc...

[roid_rage]

thunther, I'm in love with your avatar, who the hell is that????

[Thunder Monkey]

yes its nolva
yes you should add it 50mg ed
that pct is serm/serm, theres no ai
serm blocks estrogen
ai prevents/slows its creation
nolva should be used 20mg-40mg daily, clomid 25mg daily MAX

Doh, I didn't mean to say I'm taking serm/serm.. I see what you mean, I was going to choose Clomid, but I see you prefer Nolva. For AI, I will ask about what he can do for me, I did buy a bottle of Liquidex from AR. Reading your post, you recommend Proviron over the other AI's? I will ask the doc about availability.

Thanks!
TM

[Thunder Monkey]

thunther, I'm in love with your avatar, who the hell is that????

I wish I knew, but she was on the cover of the 2004 CD "Spin the Bottle: An All-Star Tribute to Kiss"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../sleazeroxx-20

[one8nine]

Doh, I didn't mean to say I'm taking serm/serm.. I see what you mean, I was going to choose Clomid, but I see you prefer Nolva. For AI, I will ask about what he can do for me, I did buy a bottle of Liquidex from AR. Reading your post, you recommend Proviron over the other AI's? I will ask the doc about availability.

Thanks!
TM

i see you put a ?
is there a question?

[roid_rage]

I wish I knew, but she was on the cover of the 2004 CD "Spin the Bottle: An All-Star Tribute to Kiss"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../sleazeroxx-20

I think she is the best PCT out there no doubt...