Understanding SHUTDOWN from beginning to end

I've done one cycle of steroids (Testosterone alone) and I suffered severe shutdown. My balls went tiny, so before I cycle again I want to educate myself as much as possible on how Shutdown works so that I can be safe and sensible by preventing it as much as possible.

From what I understand of it so far, there are three stages in Testosterone production. Please correct me on any mistakes I make below, I don't claim to be an expert on any of this.

When your body is working normally, here's what happens:

1: The Hypothalmus produces "Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone" (known as "GnRH")

2: The GnRH makes its way to the Pituitary Gland, where it stimulates the production of Leutinizing Hormone (known as "LH")

3: The LH makes it way to the testicles, where it stimulates the production of Testosterone.

When you inject a high amount of Testosterone Enanthate (e.g. 600mg per week), the Hypothalmus reduces the amount of GnRH it produces, which results in less LH being produced in the Pituitary, which results in less Testosterone being produced in the Testicles. (I've been told that as little as 50 mg of Testosterone Enanthate will cause SHUTDOWN). As your testicles produce less and less testosterone, they get weaker and smaller.

In a perfect world, the best way of preventing Shutdown would be, I think, to prevent the Hyopthalmus from reducing the amount of GnRH it produces. I don't think there has been any success in this area medically.

The next best choice would be to take supplemental GnRH. I don't think this is available yet though. Please correct me if I'm wrong (it would be fantastic if we could find a GnRH replacement).

The next choice after that would be to take supplemental LH. This is actually available, but it has a very short half-life of only 20 minutes, meaning you'd need to take it maybe 50 times a day. (Don't ask me what you'd do when you're sleeping). A more suitable alternative is something called Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (known as "hCG" -- not to be confused with "hGH"), which is very very similar to LH, and which will perform the same function as LH. The good thing about hCG is that the half-life is much longer at 24 hours. So if you take supplemental hCG, it will make its way to your testicles and make sure your testicles keep producing Testosterone.

If you stay on a steroid cycle for too long, and if you are shut down for too long, then you risk doing damage to the following:
1: Your Pituitary Gland will eventually become weak at producing LH
2: Your Testicles will eventually become weak at producing Testosterone
(If either of these are wrong, please correct me).

Taking hCG will save your testicles, but I don't think it will help your Pituitary Gland in any way, meaning you still risk damaging your Pituitary so that it doesn't produce LH.

My next cycle is going to be Testosterone along with Nandrolone. I've been told that Nandrolone causes severe shutdown, so I want to be prepared before I embark on this.

So with today's medical knowledge, what is the best way of preventing shutdown? Is hCG our best and only choice at the moment?

For people who have already educated themselves about this stuff, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'd also like to know if we need to discuss Follicle Stimulating Hormone at all? There is a product called Menotropin which contains both LH and FSH, and I'd be very curious to hear if anyone's ever tried it? Here's a short Wikipedia page about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopur

I welcome any stories people have to share about SHUTDOWN, about how they avoid it, and about what success they have had in avoiding it.

(I'll edit this post to correct any errors I've made once I've been informed of any errors)

Edits so far:
1: Added sentence about 50 mg of Test E being enough to cause SHUTDOWN

Testosterone is influenced, regulated and controlled by the HPTA, when you release Gnrh from the hypothalamus it tells your pituitary gland to push out LH and LSH which makes its way to your testicles which results in sperm production and testosterone synthesis, the amount of LH and LSH regulates the amount of testosterone your body produces.

Your HPTA is a very clever piece of equipment it keeps everything in balance and controls all these hormones, It does this via 2 negative feedback loops estrogen and androgen. We have lots of androgen receptors which track our testosterone and when to many of these become activated because we are being bodybuilders and injecting AAS there is a decrease or shutdown of GnRH, which results in your testicles not doing any work because there isn't any LH or FSH so more or less there isnt any testosterone or sperm being produced. So the term SHUTDOWN is a real fact of cycling with AAS.

That's why we use drugs such as HCG, clomid, nolva, a-dex ect during and in pct to help confuse with our bodies and help restart our systems. Swifto has an excellent thread regarding hcg which explains what this wonderful compound does while we are cycling which will help you next time you decide to cycle.

Ive got to say though, shutdown is shutdown and there is no severe shutdown or light shutdown, once your shutdown thats it, but there are better compounds which you can recover from faster and some compounds ie deca,tren which can result in a longer recovery or a more aggressive pct is required.

We also work and respond in different ways I know a few guys who suffer really bad with recovery from just test only and I know some guys who recover easy with 19 nors (which are harder on the system) so nothing is set in stone its all about understanding your body and how it copes and recovers is the key to better gains and maintenance.

Thats my understanding

Good post, but with regards to below part (quote), I feel you should suggest that pretty much any amount of AAS may cause shutdown. To say you need 700mg+ / week is misleading as it may happen at only 50mg/week. Please rephrase (if you're set on editing).

Quote:

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When you inject a high amount of Testosterone Enanthate (e.g. 700mg per week), the Hypothalmus reduces the amount of GnRH it produces, which results in less LH being produced in the Pituitary, which results in less Testosterone being produced in the Testicles. As your testicles produce less and less testosterone, they get weaker and smaller.

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Thanks Benny, I've added the suggested edit

Thanks for the information, Marcus, I'm hoping to get a very solid understanding of SHUTDOWN over the next few days.

Tomorrow I will enter my 4th week of PCT using Clomiphene and Tamoxifen. My sex drive came back to me even before I started PCT (which of course is a good thing), but my left testicle is still frightfully small, it's less than half the size it used to be, I'm just hoping it will come back.

I'm definitely not going on a cycle again until that left ball beefs up a bit, and even then afterwards I'm gonna take precautions such as using hCG.

By the way, do you think FSH is a big deal? If we take hCG then it will only perform the function of LH, it won't perform the function of FSH. From what I read it seems as though we need FSH to produce sperm.

I've been searching the internet trying to see if you can actually get supplemental GnRH that you eat or inject or whatever, because if I'm not mistaken then that would prevent SHUTDOWN completely. So far I've only found one article where they gave GnRH to buffalo calves:

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/articl...00A0381021.php

If they were giving it to buffalo calves then they must have a way of getting it from somewhere, or a way of sythesizing it. I'd love to get my hands on some of this stuff.

This looks very interesting, they're talking about "analogues" of GnRH which supposedly boost the production of your own GnRH.

http://www.blogcatalog.com/search.fr...46514f22018eae

I've been searching for an actual drug product that contains GnRH (or an "analogue" of it), but haven't found anything yet.

Just like to add, shutting down your HPTA before its fully developed can have an effect on the future levels of natural levels of testosterone, some never recover fully and can expereince low test for life, this is why you shouldnt cycle AAS until the age of 24-25yrs old.

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Originally Posted by marcus300

Just like to add, shutting down your HPTA before its fully developed can have an effect on the future levels of natural levels of testosterone, some never recover fully and can expereince low test for life, this is why you shouldnt cycle AAS until the age of 24-25yrs old.

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^^^^^^ .. Very important point missed. When new members join, can we not have something like a disclaimer where they have to read one of the important stickies like "When not to use AAS" where they have to click "read terms and conditions"

To eliminate alot of the same questions answered 100 times before?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marcus300

Ive got to say though, shutdown is shutdown and there is no severe shutdown or light shutdown, once your shutdown thats it, but there are better compounds which you can recover from faster and some compounds ie deca,tren which can result in a longer recovery or a more aggressive pct is required.

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This statement contradicts itself. You say there is no level of shutdown (which I disagree with entirely), but you go on to say you can recover faster from certain compounds??

Also, show me data or studies that show at 10 weeks on an EQ only cycle your as shutdown as a test cycle at 10 weeks. Have you ever done a non-test based cycle using EQ or oxandrolone? I have, and I can tell you first hand that after a few weeks my testicles were smaller and my recovery was much longer on a test cycle. Also, my sex drive was much more inhibited during recovery on test. On a 14 week EQ only my libido was fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spooledup

This statement contradicts itself. You say there is no level of shutdown (which I disagree with entirely), but you go on to say you can recover faster from certain compounds??

Also, show me data or studies that show at 10 weeks on an EQ only cycle your as shutdown as a test cycle at 10 weeks. Have you ever done a non-test based cycle using EQ or oxandrolone? I have, and I can tell you first hand that after a few weeks my testicles were smaller and my recovery was much longer on a test cycle. Also, my sex drive was much more inhibited during recovery on test. On a 14 week EQ only my libido was fine.

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I dont think you totally understand what I am saying, if your shutdown your shutdown and majority of compounds if ran long enough shut you down, but there is different levels of suppression which will lead to shutdown.

Why would I want to show you data showing eq shutdown is the same a test shutdown!! :scratch: dont get your point there, personally I look at how i respond and not data.

I dont understand what your trying to say because in your own words you felt like eq didn't shut you down as hard as test, well dont you think you may of just been supressed? and not shutdown....

Your getting confused with suppression and shutdown

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Originally Posted by marcus300

Your getting confused with suppression and shutdown

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Exactly. EQ is just a modified testosterone molecule so it will more or less shut you down like testosterone.

No. You're making it more complicated and confusing than you need to.

Technically, you're never shutdown...EVER. Your body will always produce some testosterone, however minuscule it may be, even when you're being suppressed at castration levels. The word "shutdown" is VERY misused on this board.

My point is that my body will produce more testosterone on an EQ only cycle or oxandrolone only cycle than a testosterone cycle. So, EQ and oxandrolone do not suppress me to the level that testosterone does. And it makes sense that non-aromatizing AAS would suppress your LH less due to less estrogen negative feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marcus300

I dont think you totally understand what I am saying, if your shutdown your shutdown and majority of compounds if ran long enough shut you down, but there is different levels of suppression which will lead to shutdown.

Why would I want to show you data showing eq shutdown is the same a test shutdown!! :scratch: dont get your point there, personally I look at how i respond and not data.

I dont understand what your trying to say because in your own words you felt like eq didn't shut you down as hard as test, well dont you think you may of just been supressed? and not shutdown....

Your getting confused with suppression and shutdown

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BG

Exactly. EQ is just a modified testosterone molecule so it will more or less shut you down like testosterone.

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You're wrong. At least it doesn't work that way for me.

Have you ever done an EQ only cycle before? If not, then how do you know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spooledup

You're wrong. At least it doesn't work that way for me.

Have you ever done an EQ only cycle before? If not, then how do you know?

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What are you talking about, eq will suppress you, its a testosterone derivative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spooledup

No. You're making it more complicated and confusing than you need to.

Technically, you're never shutdown...EVER. Your body will always produce some testosterone, however minuscule it may be, even when you're being suppressed at castration levels. The word "shutdown" is VERY misused on this board.

My point is that my body will produce more testosterone on an EQ only cycle or oxandrolone only cycle than a testosterone cycle. So, EQ and oxandrolone do not suppress me to the level that testosterone does. And it makes sense that non-aromatizing AAS would suppress your LH less due to less estrogen negative feedback.

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What are you on about:scratch: who mention eq Vs test lol

If you read correctly, I am talking about shutdown! when your shutdown your shutdown lol your getting confused and i put this down to the eq only cycles your doing.

your point as nothing to do with what we are talking about,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spooledup

You're wrong. At least it doesn't work that way for me.

Have you ever done an EQ only cycle before? If not, then how do you know?

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Now your getting silly,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marcus300

Now your getting silly,

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LOL Im not sure what he was getting at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spooledup

Technically, you're never shutdown...EVER. Your body will always produce some testosterone, however minuscule it may be, even when you're being suppressed at castration levels. The word "shutdown" is VERY misused on this board.

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I think most of us understand that when we say someone is shut down, we're referring to their natural testosterone production being suppressed to a point well below a normal effective level. Statements as I quoted above sound a lot like saying an empty glass isn't really empty, because it contains air or humidity or whatever. It comes across like your just being argumentative.

How are guys having babies on TRT or full blown cycles if they are completely shut down? Just wondering... planning a kid soon.

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Originally Posted by BG

LOL Im not sure what he was getting at.

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Beaten' a dead horse:


http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-steroids-questions-answers/399047-eq-only-cycle.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almond

I've done one cycle of steroids (Testosterone alone) and I suffered severe shutdown. My balls went tiny, so before I cycle again I want to educate myself as much as possible on how Shutdown works so that I can be safe and sensible by preventing it as much as possible.

From what I understand of it so far, there are three stages in Testosterone production. Please correct me on any mistakes I make below, I don't claim to be an expert on any of this.

When your body is working normally, here's what happens:

1: The Hypothalmus produces "Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone" (known as "GnRH")

Also called LHRH (Leutinizing Hormone Releasing Hormone)

The GnRH makes its way to the Pituitary Gland, where it stimulates the production of Leutinizing Hormone (known as "LH")

And also FSH (Follicle Stimulation Hormone). WHich is primarily used for sperm production.

The LH makes it way to the testicles, where it stimulates the production of Testosterone.

It stimulates the Leydig cells, yes.

When you inject a high amount of Testosterone Enanthate (e.g. 600mg per week), the Hypothalmus reduces the amount of GnRH it produces, which results in less LH being produced in the Pituitary, which results in less Testosterone being produced in the Testicles. I've been told that as little as 50 mg of Testosterone Enanthate will cause SHUTDOWN .As your testicles produce less and less testosterone, they get weaker and smaller.

When the hypothalamus senses enough androgen, estrogen or progesterone receptors are activated, it shuts down GnRH, which has a knock on effect, yes.

In a perfect world, the best way of preventing Shutdown would be, I think, to prevent the Hyopthalmus from reducing the amount of GnRH it produces. I don't think there has been any success in this area medically.

Yes. Opoid-antagonists can keep GnRH going when using androgens, it seems. But the data is limited and taking opoid-antagonists and GnRH agonists, is not the way forward IMHO. Endo's dont advise this at all.

The next best choice would be to take supplemental GnRH. I don't think this is available yet though. Please correct me if I'm wrong (it would be fantastic if we could find a GnRH replacement).

The next choice after that would be to take supplemental LH. This is actually available, but it has a very short half-life of only 20 minutes, meaning you'd need to take it maybe 50 times a day. (Don't ask me what you'd do when you're sleeping). A more suitable alternative is something called Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (known as "hCG" -- not to be confused with "hGH"), which is very very similar to LH, and which will perform the same function as LH. The good thing about hCG is that the half-life is much longer at 24 hours. So if you take supplemental hCG, it will make its way to your testicles and make sure your testicles keep producing Testosterone.

Correct. See my HCG thread. "HCG - How important is it"

If you stay on a steroid cycle for too long, and if you are shut down for too long, then you risk doing damage to the following:
1: Your Pituitary Gland will eventually become weak at producing LH

Secondary Hypogonadism.

2: Your Testicles will eventually become weak at producing Testosterone[/B]
(If either of these are wrong, please correct me).

Primary Hypogonadism.

Taking hCG will save your testicles, but I don't think it will help your Pituitary Gland in any way, meaning you still risk damaging your Pituitary so that it doesn't produce LH.

Your hypothalamus and pituitary usually recover quickly. Your testes dont. See my thread.

My next cycle is going to be Testosterone along with Nandrolone. I've been told that Nandrolone causes severe shutdown, so I want to be prepared before I embark on this.

So with today's medical knowledge, what is the best way of preventing shutdown? Is hCG our best and only choice at the moment?

Yes.

For people who have already educated themselves about this stuff, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'd also like to know if we need to discuss Follicle Stimulating Hormone at all? There is a product called Menotropin which contains both LH and FSH, and I'd be very curious to hear if anyone's ever tried it? Here's a short Wikipedia page about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopur

I welcome any stories people have to share about SHUTDOWN, about how they avoid it, and about what success they have had in avoiding it.

(I'll edit this post to correct any errors I've made once I've been informed of any errors)
Edits so far:
1: Added sentence about 50 mg of Test E being enough to cause SHUTDOWN

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bolds

Your body is never techinally, shutdown. it will still produce ganadotrophins, but such a small amount is labelled, "shutdown".

One has to make the distinction between, being inhibited and shutdown.

Certain androgens will cause rapid shutdown, such as Test, 19-Nor's.

Others may inhibit the HPTA, such as Tbol, Dbol, EQ, Halo, Masteron, Primo, Winstrol, Var. But this will vary greatly from person to person. If one uses a high enough doseof any of the above, the HPTA may become shutdown. If one uses an androgen from the above for too long, the HPTA may be shutdown.

Well if we really wanna be scientific and specific about it, we could use numbers instead of words, for example:

Taking 600mg of Testosterone per week for 3 weeks will result in your own natural Testosterone production dropping by 88% .

Taking 500mg of Nandrolone per week for 3 weeks will result in your own natural Testosterone production dropping by 96%.

(I pulled those figures out of my ass by the way)

I can understand that people would use the term "SHUTDOWN" when the Testosterone production becomes negligible. Plus I like the impact of the word, especially when it's written in BLOCK LETTERS, it really gets the point across that something serious is happening.

Should we worry about the shortage of FSH at all? It sounds like sperm production will decrease if we don't have FSH. Can being shutdown for a 12-week cycle of Deca and Test damage your ability to produce sperm at all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almond

I've done one cycle of steroids (Testosterone alone) and I suffered severe shutdown. My balls went tiny, so before I cycle again I want to educate myself as much as possible on how Shutdown works so that I can be safe and sensible by preventing it as much as possible.

From what I understand of it so far, there are three stages in Testosterone production. Please correct me on any mistakes I make below, I don't claim to be an expert on any of this.

When your body is working normally, here's what happens:

1: The Hypothalmus produces "Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone" (known as "GnRH")

2: The GnRH makes its way to the Pituitary Gland, where it stimulates the production of Leutinizing Hormone (known as "LH")

3: The LH makes it way to the testicles, where it stimulates the production of Testosterone.

When you inject a high amount of Testosterone Enanthate (e.g. 600mg per week), the Hypothalmus reduces the amount of GnRH it produces, which results in less LH being produced in the Pituitary, which results in less Testosterone being produced in the Testicles. (I've been told that as little as 50 mg of Testosterone Enanthate will cause SHUTDOWN). As your testicles produce less and less testosterone, they get weaker and smaller.

In a perfect world, the best way of preventing Shutdown would be, I think, to prevent the Hyopthalmus from reducing the amount of GnRH it produces. I don't think there has been any success in this area medically.

The next best choice would be to take supplemental GnRH. I don't think this is available yet though. Please correct me if I'm wrong (it would be fantastic if we could find a GnRH replacement).

The next choice after that would be to take supplemental LH. This is actually available, but it has a very short half-life of only 20 minutes, meaning you'd need to take it maybe 50 times a day. (Don't ask me what you'd do when you're sleeping). A more suitable alternative is something called Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (known as "hCG" -- not to be confused with "hGH"), which is very very similar to LH, and which will perform the same function as LH. The good thing about hCG is that the half-life is much longer at 24 hours. So if you take supplemental hCG, it will make its way to your testicles and make sure your testicles keep producing Testosterone.

If you stay on a steroid cycle for too long, and if you are shut down for too long, then you risk doing damage to the following:
1: Your Pituitary Gland will eventually become weak at producing LH
2: Your Testicles will eventually become weak at producing Testosterone
(If either of these are wrong, please correct me).

Taking hCG will save your testicles, but I don't think it will help your Pituitary Gland in any way, meaning you still risk damaging your Pituitary so that it doesn't produce LH.

My next cycle is going to be Testosterone along with Nandrolone. I've been told that Nandrolone causes severe shutdown, so I want to be prepared before I embark on this.

So with today's medical knowledge, what is the best way of preventing shutdown? Is hCG our best and only choice at the moment?

For people who have already educated themselves about this stuff, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'd also like to know if we need to discuss Follicle Stimulating Hormone at all? There is a product called Menotropin which contains both LH and FSH, and I'd be very curious to hear if anyone's ever tried it? Here's a short Wikipedia page about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopur

I welcome any stories people have to share about SHUTDOWN, about how they avoid it, and about what success they have had in avoiding it.

(I'll edit this post to correct any errors I've made once I've been informed of any errors)

Edits so far:
1: Added sentence about 50 mg of Test E being enough to cause SHUTDOWN

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It is still debatable whether or not Long term Exogenous AAS supplementation actually damages the Pituitary. There is a condition called Empty Sella, which in case reports in the literature AAS usage has been postulated as a possible cause. However the last time I checked it was not listed as a cause according to Robbins & Cotran Pathology 7th edition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MuscleScience

It is still debatable whether or not Long term Exogenous AAS supplementation actually damages the Pituitary. There is a condition called Empty Sella, which in case reports in the literature AAS usage has been postulated as a possible cause. However the last time I checked it was not listed as a cause according to Robbins & Cotran Pathology 7th edition.

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There is also no scientific evidence that states long term AS use will damage the HPTA beyond repair either. Although I have seen studies which state long term AS use will damage the testes in particular.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swifto

There is also no scientific evidence that states long term AS use will damage the HPTA beyond repair either. Although I have seen studies which state long term AS use will damage the testes in particular.

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I think the key word here is "damage" because no matter where the damage occurs the end result is people who use AAS tend to get testosterone treatment to support their damaged production sooner than they would of if AAS hadn't been used. I think the % is high which this relates to, which isnt from any studies ive seen but more or less from real life experiences from many bodybuilders over the yrs. Guess its something we come to terms with and a risk we take for the rewards, anyway HRT is goooooooood:aaGreen22

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marcus300

I think the key word here is "damage" because no matter where the damage occurs the end result is people who use AAS tend to get testosterone treatment to support their damaged production sooner than they would of if AAS hadn't been used. I think the % is high which this relates to, which isnt from any studies ive seen but more or less from real life experiences from many bodybuilders over the yrs. Guess its something we come to terms with and a risk we take for the rewards, anyway HRT is goooooooood:aaGreen22

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I thought you'de like this one I dug up Marcus.

It stated 50mg/wk of Test Enan did NOT effect LH, FSH, sperm count and T, any less than 300mg/wk Test Enan...





1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1990 Jan;70(1):282-7. Links


Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.

Matsumoto AM.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington 98108.

In normal men, chronic testosterone (T) administration results in negative feedback suppression of gonadotropin and sperm production. However, azoospermia is achieved in only 50-70% of men treated with high dosages of T. Furthermore, the relative sensitivity of LH and FSH secretion to chronic administration of more physiological dosages of T is unclear. We determined whether a T dosage higher than those previously given would be more or less effective in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether, within the physiological range, T would exert a more selective effect on LH than on FSH secretion. After a 4- to 6-month control period, 51 normal men were randomly assigned to treatment groups (n = 9-12/group) receiving either sesame oil (1 mL) or T enanthate (25, 50, 100, or 300 mg, im) weekly for 6 months. Monthly LH and FSH levels by RIA and twice monthly sperm counts were determined. During treatment, T levels were measured daily between two weekly injections. Chronic T administration in physiological to moderately supraphysiological dosages resulted in parallel dose-dependent suppression of LH, FSH, and sperm production. T enanthate (50 mg/week) suppressed LH and FSH levels and sperm counts to 50% of those in placebo-treated men (ED50). T enanthate (300 mg/week), was no more effective than 100 mg/week in suppressing LH, FSH, and sperm production. Serum T levels in men who received 100 and 300 mg/week T enanthate were 1.5- and 3-fold higher than those in placebo-treated men, respectively. Except for mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit, we detected no significant adverse health effects of chronic high dosage T administration. We conclude that 1) LH and FSH secretion are equally sensitive to the long term negative feedback effects of T administration; 2) sperm production is suppressed in parallel with the LH and FSH reductions induced by chronic T administration; and 3) even at the clearly supraphysiological dosage of 300 mg/week, T enanthate does not reliably induce azoospermia in normal men. However, there was also no evidence of a stimulatory effect of this T dosage on spermatogenesis. Furthermore, we found no evidence of major adverse health effects of T administered chronically even at the highest dosage.

PIP: In Seattle, Washington, health workers randomly assigned 51 healthy men (mean age, 29 years) to a group that was to receive either 1 ml sesame oil or testosterone enanthate (T enanthate) at various doses once a week for 6 months so an investigator could determine the safety and efficacy of long-term administration of T enanthate in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether it would bring about a more selective feedback effect on luteinizing hormone (LH) than on follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) secretion. 4-6 months prior to treatment, observations and measurements were performed with no administration of hormones. T enanthate effected a significant dose-dependent suppression of both serum LH and FSH levels. At 50 mg of T enanthate per week, the LH level was 65% and the FSH level was 62% of control values; at 100 mg/week, the levels were at 32% and 34% of control values, respectively. T enanthate also contributed to a significant dose-dependent suppression of both sperm counts and concentrations. At 50 mg/week, the sperm count was 36% of control values; at 100 mg/week, it was 0.8% of control values. T enanthate at a dose of 300 mg/week was no more effective than 100 mg/week. The dose-dependent suppression curves were parallel for the hormones, sperm counts, and sperm concentrations. Men who received 100 mg and 300 mg T enanthate per week had higher T levels than the men treated with sesame oil. These levels were at and above the upper limits of the normal range. The men suffered from no significant adverse health effects. There were cases of mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit. These findings show that LH and FSH secretion are sensitive to long-term negative feedback effects of T administration as well as is spermatogenesis. T enanthate may prove to be a useful male contraceptive agent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swifto

Your body is never techinally, shutdown. it will still produce ganadotrophins, but such a small amount is labelled, "shutdown".

One has to make the distinction between, being inhibited and shutdown.

Certain androgens will cause rapid shutdown, such as Test, 19-Nor's.

Others may inhibit the HPTA, such as Tbol, Dbol, EQ, Halo, Masteron, Primo, Winstrol, Var. But this will vary greatly from person to person. If one uses a high enough doseof any of the above, the HPTA may become shutdown. If one uses an androgen from the above for too long, the HPTA may be shutdown.

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Yes I know it's an old thread but very good read.

Does anybody know how much is high enough dose and how long is too long to cause shutdown with Eq or Var?

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Originally Posted by Super22

is this saying u can take up to 300mg a week without being shut down?

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of what? for how long?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marcus300

I think the key word here is "damage" because no matter where the damage occurs the end result is people who use AAS tend to get testosterone treatment to support their damaged production sooner than they would of if AAS hadn't been used. I think the % is high which this relates to, which isnt from any studies ive seen but more or less from real life experiences from many bodybuilders over the yrs. Guess its something we come to terms with and a risk we take for the rewards, anyway HRT is goooooooood:aaGreen22

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it may be good but doesnt it cost you 2 grand a year?

not if you have good insurance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pwnflow

Yes I know it's an old thread but very good read.

Does anybody know how much is high enough dose and how long is too long to cause shutdown with Eq or Var?

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This is very individual.

Var is actually a fairly strong compound on the HPTA. Doses of 2.5mg/ED can cut LH fairly dramtically in some studies I have read.

EQ is relatively mild.

Why the question though?

If any androgen is used long enough or at a high enough dose and there is too much androgen activity in the hypothalamus, the sequence of " HPTA shutdown" will begin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swifto

This is very individual.

Var is actually a fairly strong compound on the HPTA. Doses of 2.5mg/ED can cut LH fairly dramtically in some studies I have read.

EQ is relatively mild.

Why the question though?

If any androgen is used long enough or at a high enough dose and there is too much androgen activity in the hypothalamus, the sequence of " HPTA shutdown" will begin.

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I am asking this because previously I though that 21yrs is enough to for the endocrine system to stabilize but I have recently come across that it might still fluctuate until 25yrs so looking for compounds that are easier on HPTA axis.

But I remember reading var androgenic activity is 24 while Eq's is 50 compared to test. Then wouldn't it imply that var will be easier on HPTA than Eq?

my 2 cents: i have done one cycle and ran hcg throughout. I made mistakes in my cycle and pct, potentially big ones IMO. My testes were barely smaller and after 2 weeks of pct (standard 100/100/50/50 and 40/40/20/20 stuff) I was right back at it and my strength leanness, energy are all better now than on cycle, although I did lose a little upper body mass (result of my training and pct mistakes).

So based on this, swifto's large article, and talking to other guys, I think HCG is simply essential to assure the best results, most kept gains, and least oppressive "shut down".

GnRH was the shit back in the 80s, I have all their albums

sweet thread