AAS and heart damage?

[07sandiegomuscle]

How do you avoid or lessen heart damage? Does aas directly cause heart damage to some users? Is ventricular hypertrophy heart damage? Is it irreversible? Once on aas and you start to have heart damage is there a way of knowing? Do you do nothing, but find out months later during your yearly physical your heart has changed for the worse? Should a smart aas user go to a cardiologist before cycle, get a baseline, and do it again mid cycle to make sure everything is going fine? Is the heart damage over time? How long does the damage take? Is it little by little every day on cycle? Or, it is all at once one day boom- ventricular hypertrophy! Take vitamins? Avoid HGH and aas together? Did I forget anything else to ask on this? Yes, I did a "search" on this topic in this forum and read a lot of the previous discussions. There is a lot of discussing but not much authoritative answers? Thanks

[sportfan33]

wow lot of questions, good ones tho. wil be interested to hear what people have to say about these

[SuperLift]

Best way would be to avoid it, but then again other things can enlarge your heart as well even without the use of steroids.

[MuscleScience]

LVH is not necessarily pathological in all instances. There is a bias in the medical profession that any thickening beyond normal is pathological. However many many athletes have some sort of LVH, and yes some do die from it but it is a normal physiological adaptation to exercise. Some of the newer generation of cardiologist are starting to rethink their views on LVH and pathology. I think the more major concern as far as heart problems and AAS usage is the stigma of no cardio while bulking coupled with a high caloric intake. Moderate amounts of cardio keep not only the heart but the entire vasculature healthy.

[07sandiegomuscle]

LVH is not necessarily pathological in all instances. There is a bias in the medical profession that any thickening beyond normal is pathological. However many many athletes have some sort of LVH, and yes some do die from it but it is a normal physiological adaptation to exercise. Some of the newer generation of cardiologist are starting to rethink their views on LVH and pathology. I think the more major concern as far as heart problems and AAS usage is the stigma of no cardio while bulking coupled with a high caloric intake. Moderate amounts of cardio keep not only the heart but the entire vasculature healthy.

What does a smart aas user do? If it happens it happens oh well? Can you tell if you heart is changing for the worse while it is happening and react to it? Can you tell if your LVH is pathological or a healthy growing? Do you have to take a back seat and let it be in God's hands?

[MuscleScience]

What does a smart aas user do? If it happens it happens oh well? Can you tell if you heart is changing for the worse while it is happening and react to it? Can you tell if your LVH is pathological or a healthy growing? Do you have to take a back seat and let it be in God's hands?

You can have an ultrasound to determine LV thickness and function. A smart AAS user would be one that doesnt use at all. Having said that heart disease and steroid uses relationship is iffy at best.

[doctorb325]

How do you avoid or lessen heart damage? Does aas directly cause heart damage to some users? Is ventricular hypertrophy heart damage? Is it irreversible? Once on aas and you start to have heart damage is there a way of knowing? Do you do nothing, but find out months later during your yearly physical your heart has changed for the worse? Should a smart aas user go to a cardiologist before cycle, get a baseline, and do it again mid cycle to make sure everything is going fine? Is the heart damage over time? How long does the damage take? Is it little by little every day on cycle? Or, it is all at once one day boom- ventricular hypertrophy! Take vitamins? Avoid HGH and aas together? Did I forget anything else to ask on this? Yes, I did a "search" on this topic in this forum and read a lot of the previous discussions. There is a lot of discussing but not much authoritative answers? Thanks

Very good questions. One question at a time:

Steroids do put strain on your cardiovascular system, this is without much debate. They do this in a number of ways, but the biggest ones are:

1) Lowering your HDL (good cholesterol) and raising your LDL (bad cholesterol). Poor cholesterol leads to an increase in plaque buildup in the arteries of the heart, which can lead to a stroke or heart attack.

2) Raising your blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to coronary heart disease, stroke, heart attack, etc.

3) A rapid weight gain in a short period of time is very stressful for the heart.

4) Cardiac/ventricular hypertrophy, or an abnormal enlargement of the heart. This is caused by long term use of stimulants, AAS, or GH and usually in high doses. It is unlikely that it will happen to a casual responsible aas user, it's more of something you suspect among the pro's or long term heavy AAS users but you simply DO NOT KNOW. It almost always happens over time though, from my understanding. This is what Cardio hypertrophy is: Your heart beats because of an electric current that circulates the heart, and when the heart becomes abnormally big, the current doesn't make the full circle before another beat starts. This can lead to irregular heart beat, a heart attack, etc. etc. I do not believe this is reversible, however I may be wrong. I personally know somebody suffering from this condition who may need a heart transplant. The other way this can happen is enlargement to a point where th e heart can not pump blood to all the areas. This will lead to dead parts of tissue in the heart.

UNFORTUNATELY, there is no real way of knowing, you may feel some chest pain or something along those lines but quite possibly not until you had a heart attack. Like I said, it isn't something you hear about terribly often (most of the pro's of the older generation like zane and arnold aren't dead yet are they? And BTW, arnold schwarzenegger had a congenital heart problem that required operation, not one caused by AAS.)

Also, cardiac hypertrophy can be caused by a number of other things including a viral infection, and within reason it can be treated (not cured or reversed) through oral medication.

HOWEVER, there are other factors to consider, factors that are probably MORE important than just the gear:

1) Genetics!! If you have a history of heart disease in your family, it would be in your best interest to take additional precautions like visiting a cardiologist before and after.

2) Your DIET!! Eating foods high in cholesterol and trans fats may send you to an early grave if your juicing. Your cholesterol will most likely take a beating EVEN if your diet is spot on, so it's in your best interest to avoid foods that would exacerbate it.

3) Cardio. I always believe in doing cardio exercise, whether I am bulking or cutting. When I am bulking I just cut the cardio down to about 3 times a week, when I cut 5 times a week. Cardio will help to keep your cholesterol and blood pressure in check. In addition, an athlete usually has a lower resting heart rate than a non athlete. This is because an athlete's heart also enlarges, but in a positive and beneificial way. It becomes stronger and more efficient. This is the opposite of somebody whose heart has enlarged due to AAS, GH, or stimulant use.

3) The amount of gear you are using. Use only what you need to in order to see gains and not anymore!

4) It goes without saying that your heart will also be under strain if you use any other drugs or smoke cigarettes. These are things to avoid on a steroid cycle especially!!!

So in short, there are a lot of factors that go into determining your heart's health. It can't hurt to see a cardiologist like you wrote, in fact it is a great idea. I also recommend keeping an eye on your liver values, blood pressure, and cholesterol during cycle. I seriously doubt vitamins will do as much as a healthy diet and cardio will. If you have a normal healthy heart, you most likely wont face drastic heart problems if you keep your doses reasonable.

[rookie builder]

Very good questions. One question at a time:

Steroids do put strain on your cardiovascular system, this is without much debate. They do this in a number of ways, but the biggest ones are:

1) Lowering your HDL (good cholesterol) and raising your LDL (bad cholesterol). Poor cholesterol leads to an increase in plaque buildup in the arteries of the heart, which can lead to a stroke or heart attack.

2) Raising your blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to coronary heart disease, stroke, heart attack, etc.

3) A rapid weight gain in a short period of time is very stressful for the heart.

4) Cardiac/ventricular hypertrophy, or an abnormal enlargement of the heart. This is caused by long term use of stimulants, AAS, or GH and usually in high doses. It is unlikely that it will happen to a casual responsible aas user, it's more of something you suspect among the pro's or long term heavy AAS users but you simply DO NOT KNOW. It almost always happens over time though, from my understanding. This is what Cardio hypertrophy is: Your heart beats because of an electric current that circulates the heart, and when the heart becomes abnormally big, the current doesn't make the full circle before another beat starts. This can lead to irregular heart beat, a heart attack, etc. etc. I do not believe this is reversible, however I may be wrong. I personally know somebody suffering from this condition who may need a heart transplant. The other way this can happen is enlargement to a point where th e heart can not pump blood to all the areas. This will lead to dead parts of tissue in the heart.

UNFORTUNATELY, there is no real way of knowing, you may feel some chest pain or something along those lines but quite possibly not until you had a heart attack. Like I said, it isn't something you hear about terribly often (most of the pro's of the older generation like zane and arnold aren't dead yet are they? And BTW, arnold schwarzenegger had a congenital heart problem that required operation, not one caused by AAS.)

Also, cardiac hypertrophy can be caused by a number of other things including a viral infection, and within reason it can be treated (not cured or reversed) through oral medication.

HOWEVER, there are other factors to consider, factors that are probably MORE important than just the gear:

1) Genetics!! If you have a history of heart disease in your family, it would be in your best interest to take additional precautions like visiting a cardiologist before and after.

2) Your DIET!! Eating foods high in cholesterol and trans fats may send you to an early grave if your juicing. Your cholesterol will most likely take a beating EVEN if your diet is spot on, so it's in your best interest to avoid foods that would exacerbate it.

3) Cardio. I always believe in doing cardio exercise, whether I am bulking or cutting. When I am bulking I just cut the cardio down to about 3 times a week, when I cut 5 times a week. Cardio will help to keep your cholesterol and blood pressure in check. In addition, an athlete usually has a lower resting heart rate than a non athlete. This is because an athlete's heart also enlarges, but in a positive and beneificial way. It becomes stronger and more efficient. This is the opposite of somebody whose heart has enlarged due to AAS, GH, or stimulant use.

3) The amount of gear you are using. Use only what you need to in order to see gains and not anymore!

4) It goes without saying that your heart will also be under strain if you use any other drugs or smoke cigarettes. These are things to avoid on a steroid cycle especially!!!

So in short, there are a lot of factors that go into determining your heart's health. It can't hurt to see a cardiologist like you wrote, in fact it is a great idea. I also recommend keeping an eye on your liver values, blood pressure, and cholesterol during cycle. I seriously doubt vitamins will do as much as a healthy diet and cardio will. If you have a normal healthy heart, you most likely wont face drastic heart problems if you keep your doses reasonable.

Great reply.

[Skippa]

nice reply doc. Not bad for a 2nd post

[07sandiegomuscle]

Yes, terrific response- thanks! What do you think of Clenbuterol? I was excited to maybe use it, but then I read this: here. Damn- it appears to be some pretty bad stuff!? What do you think?

[07sandiegomuscle]

Ok, I keep reading on Clenbuterol and found out the rat study that was done was is sort of flawed to understand for humans because in the rats they gave a way higher does than what is people in these forum recommend using. But still what are your thoughts about it?

[terraj]

Kudos on that reply Doc!

IMO, clen+heavy training/AAS= high risks for the heart. I really don't think that stuff has a place in what we do....unless you are are a pro cutting for for a show.

Peace

Terraj

[doctorb325]

Yes, terrific response- thanks! What do you think of Clenbuterol? I was excited to maybe use it, but then I read this: here. Damn- it appears to be some pretty bad stuff!? What do you think?

Thank you all! My dad's a doc of 20+ years and I'm a pre med student, so I pose a lot of these questions to him.

Anyway, I've never done clenbuterol myself, so I can't answer from experience. I agree with Terraj, clenbuterol is the kind of supplement I don't think is really necessary unless you're trying to get an exceptionally low body fat % for a show or something of that nature. I mean, how many of us can naturally maintain a 4-5% body fat percentage year round? I'm sure there are the genetically gifted few, but I certainly can't (more like 6-8% is reasonable in my case). I think that just T3 stacked with some test, a good diet and cardio is all that's needed for an avid weight lifter to get ripped to shreds.

This part of teh study really freaks me out:

Secondly, the hearts of the clenbuterol-taking, trained rats increased dramatically in size compared to the hearts of sedentary rats, but the heart expansion was probably due to the infiltration of collagen fibres into the heart walls, not an increase in heart-muscle cells. Collagen is a tough connective tissue which doesn't augment heart-muscle power but in fact stiffens the heart, potentially leading to a decrease in cardiac output. Increases in collagen may also produce cardiac arrhythmias. Thirdly, clenbuterol rats suffered from noticeable cardiac-cell degeneration.


Interesting, but keep in mind these are rats, although the effects are probably similar it most likely won't be so dramatic. Besides that, most people cycle clen on and off every 2 weeks instead of going on for a month straight like those rats. I'd like to find a study on the effects of caffeine or nicotine on the hearts of rats so I could compare a mild stimulant like that to clenbuterol and see if the effects are really as severe.

It's entirely up to you, but here's some of my thoughts. A lot of my friends go out ever night and drink till they can't stand, they smoke a half pack of cigarettes a day, smoke weed everyday, take ecstasy and do coke every so often, etc etc.

I choose to work out regularly, don't smoke, watch my diet like crazy, do cardio 3 times a week, and hardly ever drink. I'm thinking that moderate use of AAS can't be nearly as harmful as the lifestyles that many of my peers choose. Look at Bill Pearl, I'm sure he used a lot more AAS than any of us use on a regular basis, for longer periods of time, and without proper protocol like PCT and HCG, etc. and he's nearing his 80th birthday.

On top of that, it's hard to explain, but I'm convinced that health is a gift from above to a large extent. Some people trash their bodies and live to be 80, others are extremely health conscious and get diagnosed with a terminal illness at age 30, so you really don't know. I'm not super religious but i'm convinced God has the final say in how long you're gonna live despite yourself.

[doctorb325]

I had to bump up this thread because I did some further research. In the article, it said:

To determine some of clenbuterol's actions, scientists at the University of Melbourne in Australia recently gave clenbuterol to laboratory rats at dosages of 2 milligrams per kilogram of body weight per day.

2 MILLIGRAMS per kilogram of body weight! No wonder the effects were so ridiculous. People usually cycle Clen in micrograms (1,000 micrograms to 1 milligram) And I seriously doubt anybody runs a clen dosage higher than approx. 200 mcg. Of course these rats looked like hell, it'd be like me taking approx. 160 milligrams (160,000 mcg) of Clen everyday!! Not to mention a rat's heart is probably much simpler and weaker, with a much higher resting heart rate than a human's.

[MuscleScience]

I was a pre-med student once, good times!

[stpete]

Discontinue all steroid use!! This is the best prevention of all. Just stop. Quit worrying about it. Stop and get on pct.

Now send me all your juice and i'll let you know how things work out.

I bet everyone keeps their juice. hahahahaha...

[07sandiegomuscle]

I had to bump up this thread because I did some further research. In the article, it said:

To determine some of clenbuterol's actions, scientists at the University of Melbourne in Australia recently gave clenbuterol to laboratory rats at dosages of 2 milligrams per kilogram of body weight per day.

2 MILLIGRAMS per kilogram of body weight! No wonder the effects were so ridiculous. People usually cycle Clen in micrograms (1,000 micrograms to 1 milligram) And I seriously doubt anybody runs a clen dosage higher than approx. 200 mcg. Of course these rats looked like hell, it'd be like me taking approx. 160 milligrams (160,000 mcg) of Clen everyday!! Not to mention a rat's heart is probably much simpler and weaker, with a much higher resting heart rate than a human's.

Yeah, your 2nd post was the reason for my 2nd post when thinking out the dosages they were giving the rats compared to the dosages anyone on here is taking. www.healthfair.com is coming around next week in their bus giving very low cost hearth tests. For $179 they are going to do an echocardiogram ultrasound test, and EKG test, Hardening of the Arteries (ASI) Test, Stroke/Cartoid Artery Ultrasound Test, Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm Test, and a Blood Circulation Test (P.A.D.Test). A couple of the tests I don't care about, but it is part of the package. I want to get all the data on my present health before I start anything.
I concur with your outlook about all the known detrimental choices people make with their health and smartly using some gear probably isn't worse than what many people are doing. And, yes, longevity is really a lot of luck and chance.

[syd-bloke]

Very good questions. One question at a time:

Steroids do put strain on your cardiovascular system, this is without much debate. They do this in a number of ways, but the biggest ones are:

1) Lowering your HDL (good cholesterol) and raising your LDL (bad cholesterol). Poor cholesterol leads to an increase in plaque buildup in the arteries of the heart, which can lead to a stroke or heart attack.

This is currently happening to me (cholesterol drop to 3.3 (min 3.5)). How do you fix that without stopping current cycle? Or whats good for it?

[07sandiegomuscle]

This is currently happening to me (cholesterol drop to 3.3 (min 3.5)). How do you fix that without stopping current cycle? Or whats good for it?

Did you get an answer? I want to know it also? Thanks

[oscarjones]

This is currently happening to me (cholesterol drop to 3.3 (min 3.5)). How do you fix that without stopping current cycle? Or whats good for it?

O m e g a s - can help with bad cholesterol. Like essentials from fish oil and extra virgin olive oil.

[doctorb325]

This is currently happening to me (cholesterol drop to 3.3 (min 3.5)). How do you fix that without stopping current cycle? Or whats good for it?

Do more cardio and watch your diet more closely. Foods high in cholesterol are bad.