Can we KILL this topic once and for all please: Using hCG for PCT

**KimboHalfSlice** · 10-29-2009, 10:58 AM

I see posts here from time to time with people saying that they're going to use hCG for their Post Cycle Therapy .

The purpose of hCG is to replace the Leutinising Hormone which your body stops producing when you take AAS. Leutinising Hormone is the stuff that goes into your balls and actually makes them produce Testosterone . If you don't have LH, your balls don't produce Testosterone, and they shrink.

When you stop taking AAS, the idea is to get your body back working exactly the way it was before you took AAS. This means the your Hypothalmus should be secreting GnRH, your pituitary gland should be producing LH, and your balls should be producing Testosterone.

When you stop taking AAS, your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens and it will begin to secrete more GnRH, resulting in your pituitary secreting more LH, resulting in your balls secreting more Testosterone.

During PCT, as your androgen levels drop, your natural LH levels rise so that your balls will produce Testosterone again.

If you take hCG during PCT, it will act on your testicles at the same time as your natural LH level is rising. Your Hypothalmus will sense that your androgen levels have increased adequately, so it has no reason to produce more LH. Taking hCG during PCT makes things worse, it delays the process of your body getting back to how it normally works.

The idea with hCG is to take it during your cycle so that your balls never actually stop producing Testosterone. Then when you stop taking AAS, you also stop taking hCG so that your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens, leading to the natural secretion of adequate levels of GnRH, LH, and Testosterone.

I'd really like to see other people here show they think hCG is a bad idea for PCT, because we still have people regularly coming here saying they're gonna use hCG for PCT.

**chuckt12345** · 10-29-2009, 11:01 AM

pretty sure no one says its a bad idea,, but alot say its not needed for certain cycles.

**TITANIUM** · 10-29-2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Almond

I see posts here from time to time with people saying that they're going to use hCG for their Post Cycle Therapy .

The purpose of hCG is to replace the Leutinising Hormone which your body stops producing when you take AAS. Leutinising Hormone is the stuff that goes into your balls and actually makes them produce Testosterone . If you don't have LH, your balls don't produce Testosterone, and they shrink.

When you stop taking AAS, the idea is to get your body back working exactly the way it was before you took AAS. This means the your Hypothalmus should be secreting GnRH, your pituitary gland should be producing LH, and your balls should be producing Testosterone.

When you stop taking AAS, your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens and it will begin to secrete more GnRH, resulting in your pituitary secreting more LH, resulting in your balls secreting more Testosterone.

During PCT, as your androgen levels drop, your natural LH levels rise so that your balls will produce Testosterone again.

If you take hCG during PCT, it will act on your testicles at the same time as your natural LH level is rising. Your Hypothalmus will sense that your androgen levels have increased adequately, so it has no reason to produce more LH. Taking hCG during PCT makes things worse, it delays the process of your body getting back to how it normally works.

The idea with hCG is to take it during your cycle so that your balls never actually stop producing Testosterone. Then when you stop taking AAS, you also stop taking hCG so that your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens, leading to the natural secretion of adequate levels of GnRH, LH, and Testosterone.

I'd really like to see other people here show they think hCG is a bad idea for PCT, because we still have people regularly coming here saying they're gonna use hCG for PCT.

I agree 100%.

Didn't know this was a debate here.

I tell members in the PCT forum to run it along side there cycle.

Actually, SWIFTO has wriiten quite abit about this.

Best

T

**dec11** · 10-29-2009, 11:06 AM

alot use it between last shot and start of pct, i think thts where alot of the confusion is

**Swifto** · 10-29-2009, 11:14 AM

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

**TITANIUM** · 10-29-2009, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

Yep.^^^

T

**marcus300** · 10-29-2009, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

Agreed, it can be used during PCT aswell as before.

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Almond

I see posts here from time to time with people saying that they're going to use hCG for their Post Cycle Therapy .

The purpose of hCG is to replace the Leutinising Hormone which your body stops producing when you take AAS. Leutinising Hormone is the stuff that goes into your balls and actually makes them produce Testosterone . If you don't have LH, your balls don't produce Testosterone, and they shrink.

When you stop taking AAS, the idea is to get your body back working exactly the way it was before you took AAS. This means the your Hypothalmus should be secreting GnRH, your pituitary gland should be producing LH, and your balls should be producing Testosterone.

When you stop taking AAS, your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens and it will begin to secrete more GnRH, resulting in your pituitary secreting more LH, resulting in your balls secreting more Testosterone.

During PCT, as your androgen levels drop, your natural LH levels rise so that your balls will produce Testosterone again.

If you take hCG during PCT, it will act on your testicles at the same time as your natural LH level is rising. Your Hypothalmus will sense that your androgen levels have increased adequately, so it has no reason to produce more LH. Taking hCG during PCT makes things worse, it delays the process of your body getting back to how it normally works.

The idea with hCG is to take it during your cycle so that your balls never actually stop producing Testosterone. Then when you stop taking AAS, you also stop taking hCG so that your Hypothalmus will sense a drop in androgens, leading to the natural secretion of adequate levels of GnRH, LH, and Testosterone.

I'd really like to see other people here show they think hCG is a bad idea for PCT, because we still have people regularly coming here saying they're gonna use hCG for PCT.

Yes HCG is suppressive , but if you use nolva in conjunction with it the suppressive nature is blocked ..

Desentization is a concern when using HCG .. Hcg blocks the conversion of 17 OHP into test , when using nolva with HCG it stops the blocking action from occurring thus making HCG a good choice for pct when used in conjunction with nolva..

Merc.

**tboney** · 10-29-2009, 12:07 PM

Great to know Merc!

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

Agree ^^^^ .. Good post Swifto ...

Merc.

**dec11** · 10-29-2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Merc.

Yes HCG is suppressive , but if you use nolva in conjunction with it the suppressive nature is blocked ..

Desentization is a concern when using HCG .. Hcg blocks the conversion of 17 OHP into test , when using nolva with HCG it stops the blocking action from occurring thus making HCG a good choice for pct when used in conjunction with nolva..

Merc.

im running it right through cycle, can i run it right through my pct aswell? will be using clomid and nolva

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 12:12 PM

Here's one study if you wanna check it out...

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

PMID: 7419679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Merc.

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 12:14 PM

I have disscused this in the past ...

Also if go look up desensitise and leydig ( on pubmed ) and you will see that desensitization is not caused by PKC so its most likey to be caused by its effects on 17 hydroxyprogesterone )..

Merc.

**MuscleScience** · 10-29-2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

I also agree, HCG for the win!!!

**Swifto** · 10-29-2009, 01:11 PM

Agreed.

17-OHP is ther culprit. But when sensible doses of HCG are used, desensitisation shouldnt really be a concern.

I often advise low doses of Tamox (10mg/ED) if your using HCG to restart the testes, with an AI, such as low dose Aromasin (10mg/ED or EOD). Again, the above study is on 1500ius in a single shot (fairly high IMHO). The million dollar question is, could one use less Tamoxifen , if less HCG was used?

That study states 40mg/ED (fairly high) will reduce the conversion to 17-OHP. Do you have any other data on Tamoxifen doses Merc, for this purpose?

**TITANIUM** · 10-29-2009, 04:57 PM

I find this interesting, as I ran HCG at the end of my very first cycle @ 500iu's ed.(12 wk cycle)

Ran it 21 days, and had it overlap my PCT slightly.

The results were excellent.

Then ran it along side my next cycle, @ 250iu's X 2 wk.(12 wks)

Ran it up to PCT, had excellent results again.

Never tried it with PCT, but it sounds like a viable option.

Merc and Swifto have interesting information being shown here.

I'm open, as usual to any information that can help myself or other members have successful cycles and safe ones.

I think that running HCG is very important, so this we all can agree on.

Excellent info, keep it coming!!!

Best

T

**Hazard** · 10-29-2009, 05:34 PM

IMO..... the best way to run it is durring the cycle..... and then up to PCT..... then the standard nolva/clomid for PCT - always works.

I wouldn't really run it off cycle unless like swifto said..... you have testicular dysfunction

~Haz~

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by tboney

Great to know Merc!

Yea .. it is a really intresting topic ..

Merc.

**Merc.** · 10-29-2009, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Agreed.

17-OHP is ther culprit. But when sensible doses of HCG are used, desensitisation shouldnt really be a concern.

I often advise low doses of Tamox (10mg/ED) if your using HCG to restart the testes, with an AI, such as low dose Aromasin (10mg/ED or EOD). Again, the above study is on 1500ius in a single shot (fairly high IMHO). The million dollar question is, could one use less Tamoxifen , if less HCG was used?

That study states 40mg/ED (fairly high) will reduce the conversion to 17-OHP. Do you have any other data on Tamoxifen doses Merc, for this purpose?

I will have to look through my database when I have time .. but from the research I have seen .. I would agree and say it would be dose dependant ( so one could use less than 40 mgs of nolva a day... I would agree and say 10 -20 mgs a day would be good )..

Merc.

**oscarjones** · 10-29-2009, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HCG can be used during PCT, if testicular dysfunction has set in. Only suprephysiological doses of LH (which is impossible) will researt the testes, so thats where HCG comes in. They can stimulate the testes in a far greater volume than endogenous LH can.

If HCG hasnt been used during the cycle and SERMs cannot restart the testes, HCG can be used with an AI.

i think it may be possible with the administration of HMG. HCG mimics the LH, whereas HMG is bio-identical to the natural LH. However, I hear you need to dose HMG by the hour to be accurate. Dr.'s use HMG, when over-sensitivity has occurred with HCG, for men trying to become unsterilized for their women.

**mikey24** · 10-30-2009, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Agreed.

17-OHP is ther culprit. But when sensible doses of HCG are used, desensitisation shouldnt really be a concern.

I often advise low doses of Tamox (10mg/ED) if your using HCG to restart the testes, with an AI, such as low dose Aromasin (10mg/ED or EOD). Again, the above study is on 1500ius in a single shot (fairly high IMHO). The million dollar question is, could one use less Tamoxifen , if less HCG was used?

That study states 40mg/ED (fairly high) will reduce the conversion to 17-OHP. Do you have any other data on Tamoxifen doses Merc, for this purpose?

Are you saying if you run HCG during your cycle you should also take a low dose of nolva along side with it say 10mg.

**KimboHalfSlice** · 10-31-2009, 03:04 AM

OK so it looks like hCG can be used both as a "vaccine" and as a "cure".

When I say "vaccine", I mean you can use it to prevent testicular atrophy altogether.

When I say "cure", I mean you can use it to treat testicular atrophy that has already set in.

I think we could all agree though that it's far more preferable to use hCG as a vaccine than as a cure.

I'll agree that hCG would be suitable for PCT if you had neglected to take it during cycle, but if you are prepared and educated beforehand then definitely there's only one way to go:

Take hCG from the beginning to the end of your cycle, and stop taking it before you begin PCT.

**DarnGoodLookin** · 10-31-2009, 04:07 AM

Taking hcg during cycle as opposed to taking it as a "cure" sounds like a no brainer. Whats a good recomended does? also is it liver toxic, and is it also made in pill form?

**Swifto** · 10-31-2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by mikey24

Are you saying if you run HCG during your cycle you should also take a low dose of nolva along side with it say 10mg.

No, not at all.

125ius-250ius 2-3 times per week wont cause this desensitisation, but larger doses 1500ius+, will.

**Swifto** · 10-31-2009, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Almond

OK so it looks like hCG can be used both as a "vaccine" and as a "cure".

When I say "vaccine", I mean you can use it to prevent testicular atrophy altogether.

When I say "cure", I mean you can use it to treat testicular atrophy that has already set in.

I think we could all agree though that it's far more preferable to use hCG as a vaccine than as a cure.

I'll agree that hCG would be suitable for PCT if you had neglected to take it during cycle, but if you are prepared and educated beforehand then definitely there's only one way to go:

Take hCG from the beginning to the end of your cycle, and stop taking it before you begin PCT.

This is exactly what I explain in my HCG thread.

**Swifto** · 10-31-2009, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

i think it may be possible with the administration of HMG. HCG mimics the LH, whereas HMG is bio-identical to the natural LH. However, I hear you need to dose HMG by the hour to be accurate. Dr.'s use HMG, when over-sensitivity has occurred with HCG, for men trying to become unsterilized for their women.

I dont know an awful lot on HMG, other than it mimics FSH.