Interesting read, thanks op
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Interesting read, thanks op
Just wanted to put in a word for Andreas Munzer, his death no doubt resulted from liver failure due to liver cancer. I have had 2 friends die from liver cancer and both bled into their stomachs so severly that it caused vomiting of congealed blood (nasty) , Munzer was admitted to the hospital and since he had a history of an ulcer they were assuming that he was suffering a bleed from the ulcer. Meantime they totally disregarded the route cause that with the totally screwed up electrolytes that result from liver failure should have been glaringly apparent. I think a lot of the cause of death stuff on his medical reports was to cover the attending physicians missing that he was suffering from total liver failure upon admission.
However in all fairness to the medical staff, it would have made little difference in his case, as he was too far along for a transplant to have been arranged and performed before his death.
My point being that years of extreme dieting along with orals and other factors related to body building could have been the route cause, however just as likely HepC, an unknown toxin or genetic predispostion could have caused his multi tumor liver failure but one thing for sure blaming it on routine steroid usage is not fair as injectables are very safe and orals if used properly have a minimal danger, So to blame his death on body building drugs in light of the partial data available since he did not seek treatment early on is simply not a sound conclusion.
Ive only lost 6 of my pounds since i came off cycle. I think if your diet and training are in order you keep most of your gains. The only people i see shrink are those who dont pct or those who quit training and eating properly
Iv seen those pics before and honestly he doesnt look to have good genetics at all really. These guys abuse everything to the maximum, AAS hgh insulin t3 and even food. Most of these guys are extreme and not healthy @ all I dont think anyone who isnt looking to turn pro shld even want to look anything like these guys. They choose to take those risks to compete at the highest level, why would someone who doesnt ever think about putting themselfs into that kind of risk? There is no way you can maintain that without mega doses of everything all the time, just soo unnatural these guys will start shrinking fast if they came clean. Thats no way to live.
He may not have perfect genetics but neither do we. If he can get that huge he must have used tons of compounds for long periods of time. If he kept nothing, what makes anyone else think they will? Sure he probably doesn't train anymore but even so he is smaller than most normal people.
exactly
In regards to the before and after photo of that guy, I must say in addition to coming off the drugs he must have had done a complete 180 in his lifestyle choices to look like that. I still think it makes a valid point regarding retaining your gains, but at the same time it looks as if though he didn't really 'try' to keep them. I have no experience on the topic, but I've found this thread very interesting and informative.
I kept a lot of my gains through my last cycle while running hgh
i never use aas for gains. only to cut weight. my walking around weight is 225. i like to shred down. i eventually find my way back up to 225. its genetics
^^It's probably diet.
I think that taking gear to shed bodyfat and preserve muscle is a great use. I also think that using it to get to your genetic potential is another good use. However don't take gear and then fall short of your genetic potential lol. That would suck. I think one should take gear to go above and beyond genetic potential then eventually shrink back to genetic potential. Don't cycle at 140lbs to get to 150 lol. Also must keep in mind that even when cutting weight with steroids when its time for pct you can be screwed from low test and having to eat to maintain muscle and the combination leads to fat gain.
Basically don't take gear unless you are planning of staying on all the time. That is pretty much the consensus we came to I think.
i think you are dwelling on the negatives everyone gains and retains something after a cycle that's definite.
Look at it this way when you pass your genetic potential then you are in different ground and i can imagine you will keep less after a cycle. But everyone gains something if not strength then some muscle gain if not your not eating training and using the proper pct.
Bodybuilding is a marathon not a sprint and the kids that wanna get big with the steriods will post up topic like yours complaining that they didn't keep the mass but that's down to lack of dedication and knowledge.
I must say this thread has been sort of a big bummer let down for me since I started my first Burst 2 weeks ago. Thanks guys. Hope to keep something while on HRT afterwards. I haven't even really started making gains yet at 2 weeks.
^^ Yeah to be honest I thought I knew quite a bit about juice until I started reading this thread...
This makes you think.... what is the point???
Well, if you are one of the lucky few who recovers very quickly then there can be lots of uses. But if not then you better not take it. It's a crap shoot whether you will recover well and its hard to measure a proper recovery because a cycle can have lasting effects.
ive worked out for 17 years, competed on the national level in college powerlifting, for 3 years in college, was able to train and learn about bodybuilding diet with one of branch warrens old training partners, and from 14-21, i was drunk a total of 3 times showing how committed i was to lifting in college and high school
im not trying to brag, but what knowledge and dedication am i lacking that prevents me from keeping hormonally induced gains?
and my original post didnt even address pct, or the time after a cycle, which will include some catabolic down time thus making the gains even harder to keep
my cycles have always been spaced pretty far apart. loose some keep some. i have found out i keep more if i continue some of the things i learn on cycle like: eating heavy, staying focused on strength instead of just working out. learn from each one and its usually my own fault on what gains stay and go.
I am going to disagree with the old old old outdated saying that if you cycle before your genetic limit, you are screwed. This is assuming that your natty test levels never come back to the level that they were previously at. Big assumption if dealing with someone who knows what they are doing, especially in this day and age of super peptides and chems.
I made one assumption that the person knows what they are doing. Nothing else about age or whatever. You are the one making several assumptions: You are assuming that since they are not at their genetic limit, they must be young. 2) You are assuming that young people have no idea what they are doing..."obviously they don't"
Not trying to flame, but all I said was that a person who knows what they are doing and is not at their genetic limit does not need to really wait. But I understand that assuming a person knows everything is a pretty big one, but these people do exist.
I have trained for years, and have done several cycles with proper PCT. I have hired trainers and have a live in nanny that cooks my meals and puts everything in seperate containers. I have all the money in the world to throw at cycling. All really need to do is show up to the gym and I do 5 x a week. My strenght is better each and everytime I am off, and only increases when i go back on. Basically my annology of t his game is it is investing. Some get lucky and hit the big payoff with genetics, and the rest of us just get the basic 5-10% that banks pay out......
Here is some to think about. While most of us keep logs of our diets, workout routines, wieght gains and losses, body fat.... Try keeping a log of how much money you spend on supliments, and gear.... I am close at $4000.00 for 2010 and that doen not include gym member ship and personal trainers....
I am almost wondering if it is just better at the age of 38 to stay on a small 100mg per week of test and be happy....
Its like everything else, gains will depend on the individual, including all the other factors what the individual does or doesnt do during and after a cycle.
I think people like to generalise too much and if somebody does do decent off a cycle then automatically its all down to genetics.
Genetics obviously play a part and if you`ve got crap genetics aas will only take you so far, but they`ll take your further than you would have got without them, if done correctly.
The notion that its only worth doing steroids if your a pro bb is absolute bollox, if that were the case then 90% of people doing aas including experienced lifters are dumbass`s who ultimate waste their time, effort and money,
Maybe people saying that gains arent keepable are the ones who have never kept them?
Dec11,
read my post, you missed my point.... my point is simple... AAS = $....
the amount of money spent on AAS at times i think is just not worth the gains... simply put
"A fool thinks he knows everything , a wise man never stops learning"
You are entilted to yoiur opinion but lets clear this up.
-While all those who have not reached their gentic limit are not young , all those that cycle too young have DEF not reached their gentic limit.
-My contention is that those who cycle at too young an age do not know what they are doing. If they did - they wouldnt be doing it. "knowing what you are doing" in my mind is making a cost /benfits based decision and acting accordingly. It is safe to say anyone cycling at too young of an age - has not done this.
not at all....and no worries.... it was just a break down of how much money the average user will throw into this when using a few differant drugs per cycle... IMHO an AAS cycle with PCT... on top of the there is protein to fuel the body and i usually double my protein intake when on.... it adds up quick.... happy as a mofo when iam half way into it and i love the feel and high and the pump... just hate when i come off i can kiss most of it good bye... Albeit my last cycle was great.... still kept some good weight on, downside BF% went up..... hind site is 20/20....
Just sold that one.. it was an 06 putting down 176 to the rear wheel. Miss the bike already. but went with a big harley street glide.
need a break from the sport bike scene.... BTW I jumped on the 2011 ZX10.... bike pulls hard and was impressed with handling...
But if you can get your mitts on the GEN1 04/05 ZX10 that was the best years made to date...... Cheers !
It doesn't matter if you were trained by arnold himself. Bodybuilding has alot to do with genetics some can look at the weights and grow some work twice as hard and find that the mass isn't any were near their training partner thats life...
It sounds good though that you have dedicated alot of time and effort....But have a read about muscle maturity and read some about the guys that have plugged away for 20 odd years and the gains that made later in life... maybe bodybuilding isnt for you...
The whole threads negative on the gear on football players playing at top level that did one cycle of steriod therapy and made awesome gains and now they play professionally after one cycle...what am saying knowledge is power...plenty of athletics that perform at a professional level have had one cycle to get them to the next level and competed and improved tremendously...