Source gave bad info...what to do in the future?

[oops]

Hi guys,

I know the following is a long read but I feel like it's a somewhat unique situation and would appreciate some feedback.

A good, trusted friend of mine has been on gear for years with no major problems except for the expected sides such as light acne, etc. About 4 months ago I decided it was time to run my first cycle since I would like to compete later this year. I had always done very light research on steroids since the topic interested me, and have actually lurked here a lot. I knew the basics from lurking this forum as well as others, but when it came time to actually start my cycle, my friend had different protocol. A lot of what he had been doing, and had me do was different from what I've read online. He told me I wouldn't need to run Letro or hCG on cycle unless I experienced any sides. I was hesitant at first but he was very confident and since he's my good friend with first hand experience, I took his word for it. So my cycle went like this:

Week 1-12: 400mg Test Enanthate / wk
Week 1-10: 300mg Deca / wk

I put on 28 pounds and never second guessed him since the only sides I experienced were slight acne and the expected temporary testicle shrinkage.

Now while I was pretty familiar with the protocol for on cycle, I wasn't very familiar with PCT. Again, I did some light research but ultimately I put my trust in my friend over what I read online. I waited ten days since Enanthate is a longer ester and approached him about starting my hCG shots. He told me I could do the full 5,000iu's at once...

I was very iffy on this and although I had read to do it in increments of 500 iu's everyday for 10 days, he really pushed for it and I believed him. I did the 5,000ius in one shot and I am fine now. I have also been taking Nolva 20mg everyday starting 10 days after my last Test injection.

So my final cycle was this:

Week 1-12: 400mg Test Enanthate / wk
Week 1-10: 300mg Deca / wk
Wait 10 days
5,000iu hCG
20mg/20mg/20mg/20mg Nolva everyday

I know I was a complete idiot for listening to his advice on doing the full hCG shot at once, and I didn't realize it until everything has been said and done. I have about a week left of Nolva and then my PCT ends.

He is now recommending that after I finish my Nolva in a week, I should wait two weeks and then run a cycle of 300mg of EQ / wk for 12 weeks, and 4 weeks of Turanabol at 40mg / ed to cut up. He claims that there is no need for a PCT on this since it's a low dosage and EQ barely aromatizes, but again will have Letro on hand. Is this more bunk advice?

So basically, my question is how bad did I **** up, and am I extremely lucky that everything on me seems normal? Is there any truth to the things he said, such as I don't need hCG or Letro on cycle unless I experience symptoms of bad sides? What about his suggested 'cutting' cycle? It seems sketch. In about 3 months I'd like to run another cycle similar to original one above, but be safer and more informed. I will continue to buy from him since his gear was good, but I really feel like I got lucky here and he will end up hurting himself or someone else he sells to. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I'd like my next cycle to be more in my hands rather than my friend's, and I should've known this from the start. It was just so easy to believe him since he has been doing it for years without problems.



Thank you for reading and for any feedback and advice.

[Bert]

Too long for me, maybe someone else will chime in.

[oops]

Too long for me, maybe someone else will chime in.

I understand. I tried to make it concise while keeping in all major points, I apologize. Thank you for the bump

[ickythump]

My friend is in a similar situation, tho he wanted all the stuff but his buddy allowed it...

Since most will blow past this long ass thread I'll take a shot...yes, you effed up, and you may seem fine but you need to wait until blood work comes back to be sure.

What are you starting stats/current stats? Blood work before cycle?

True about letro, but that's because it's powerful, you still need ask aromatase inhibitor like adex or aromasin ...hcg isn't one thousand percent necessary but you should obv use it, 250iu/twice a week from day one to pct, it's suppressive you don't use it in pct

As for starting a new cycle that bull shvt, do not start a new one, time on+ wait+pct time= time off NO MATTER WHAT, and that's a GARBAGE proposed cut cycle, btw was all this ugl gear I assume??

[raj1]

If I were you I would stop following his advice and start making your own decisions. Running an AI with every cycle is pretty important, in my opinion. Especially when you have no idea how your body is going to react to a new compound, let alone two new compounds. Prevention is better than being sucker-punched by sides and then not having anything on hand to control them. Letro also wouldn't be my first choice as it crushes estrogen levels which can be detrimental to your body and your goals. Generally when running a 19nor like Deca or Tren you should also be using a dopamine agonist, such as pramipexole, in conjunction with an AI (Aromasin would be a much better choice than Letro, IMO) to keep prolactin and estrogen down respectively.

Cliffs:
Friend gives bad advice
Stop following friends bad advice
Use an AI
Use pramipexole when running 19nors

[ickythump]

I understand. I tried to make it concise while keeping in all major points, I apologize. Thank you for the bump

You could have cleaned it up like a tweet, but it would be long, anyways do your own research man, if you're blood come back ok you're lucky, stupid ;-)

[kronik420]

how badly did you mess up your body? this can only be determined with pre and post cycle blood work.. which i assume you did not get...

As for future cycles, you need to use an AI (arimidex or aromasin ) and HCG on cycle, a standard PCT is Nolva 40/20/20/20 and clomid 100/50/50/50

[austinite]

[ickythump]

Cliffs:
Friend gives bad advice
Stop following friends bad advice
Use an AI
Use pramipexole when running 19nors

I would assume much more important than dopamine would be progesterine with a 19nor, and he should research caber/prami, BUT, OP sorry to say but you aren't ready to cycle again anytime soon, do your research

[oops]

My friend is in a similar situation, tho he wanted all the stuff but his buddy allowed it...

Since most will blow past this long ass thread I'll take a shot...yes, you effed up, and you may seem fine but you need to wait until blood work comes back to be sure.

What are you starting stats/current stats? Blood work before cycle?

True about letro, but that's because it's powerful, you still need ask aromatase inhibitor like adex or aromasin ...hcg isn't one thousand percent necessary but you should obv use it, 250iu/twice a week from day one to pct, it's suppressive you don't use it in pct

As for starting a new cycle that bull shvt, do not start a new one, time on+ wait+pct time= time off NO MATTER WHAT, and that's a GARBAGE proposed cut cycle, btw was all this ugl gear I assume??

I feel like such an idiot, ugh...I didn't do bloodwork again per his advice.

Starting stats 5'10/180 lbs/12% bf. Ending stats 5'10/204-208lbs (fluctuated in morning)/~14% bf

Ok I will keep Letro on hand for future cycles in case of gyno symptoms, and then Arimidex .25mg every other day from start to finish.

I will wait 16 weeks then before I start my next cycle. I can do a cut without steroid use anyway, I was just hoping to maintain all of my strength and lean tissue but I'd rather be safe.

Since I will cut for the next 12-16 weeks then, I should probably just run the same cycle I ran above minus the deca (Just Test E) in June, but be safer about it by incorporating the advice you listed.

Yes his stuff comes from a lab in the UK. He has had the same source for years with no problems though. What's your advice on that matter for the future? Should I find a new source?

Thank you for your time. I hope other newbies read this as well and don't fall into the same thing I did...I got very lucky.

[jgrayson60]

Wow you guys are azzholes, this guy comes here for help and all you say is, too long didn't read. If you didn't read it then dont bother responding to him.

[raj1]

I would assume much more important than dopamine would be progesterine with a 19nor, and he should research caber/prami, BUT, OP sorry to say but you aren't ready to cycle again anytime soon, do your research

A dopamine agonist is going to take care of any progesterone issues. Caber and Prami are both dopamine agonists, dopamine agonists lower prolactin levels.

[raj1]

I feel like such an idiot, ugh...I didn't do bloodwork again per his advice.

Starting stats 5'10/180 lbs/12% bf. Ending stats 5'10/204-208lbs (fluctuated in morning)/~14% bf

Ok I will keep Letro on hand for future cycles in case of gyno symptoms, and then Arimidex .25mg every other day from start to finish.

I will wait 16 weeks then before I start my next cycle. I can do a cut without steroid use anyway, I was just hoping to maintain all of my strength and lean tissue but I'd rather be safe.

Since I will cut for the next 12-16 weeks then, I should probably just run the same cycle I ran above minus the deca (Just Test E) in June, but be safer about it by incorporating the advice you listed.

Yes his stuff comes from a lab in the UK. He has had the same source for years with no problems though. What's your advice on that matter for the future? Should I find a new source?

Thank you for your time. I hope other newbies read this as well and don't fall into the same thing I did...I got very lucky.

I also would not jump right into a cutting phase. Maintain what you put on with gear while you're off gear for a bit, and then think about cutting.

[ickythump]

Hmmm.....I, I learned something today......actually I was just testing you....you've passed, excellent lol

[ickythump]

You aren't lucky yet....no need for new source I suppose, just new info bud!

[oops]

You aren't lucky yet....no need for new source I suppose, just new info bud!

When I come off of Nolva in a week, should I be looking for symptoms of any kind? Would it be worthwhile to get bloodwork done even though I've never done it before? And if I do get certain symptoms, what should I do about them? I just want to be prepared.

Thank you again to everyone who is taking time to read and reply to my idiot self.

[ickythump]

I'm no expert but I think you'd be looking for lethargy, depression, look at estro rebound threads, low test threads etc, all things that could happen....and yes like I said get blood work!! You don't know if you're recovered, idk if you should wait a few weeks then or just go,....where do you live? I'm my state bw is hard to obtain, maybe someone can help with ideas but you may need to say you took a test booster for a few months and stopped and now you feel like crap, don't mention aas dude

[ickythump]

Wow you guys are azzholes, this guy comes here for help and all you say is, too long didn't read. If you didn't read it then dont bother responding to him.

I understand the first tl;dr, but the second one is baffling...maybe austinite is teaching him something about post size, in his own unique way...

[oops]

I'm no expert but I think you'd be looking for lethargy, depression, look at estro rebound threads, low test threads etc, all things that could happen....and yes like I said get blood work!! You don't know if you're recovered, idk if you should wait a few weeks then or just go,....where do you live? I'm my state bw is hard to obtain, maybe someone can help with ideas but you may need to say you took a test booster for a few months and stopped and now you feel like crap, don't mention aas dude

Hmm ok. I read somewhere to wait about 6 weeks after PCT to get bloodwork, does that sound right?

I live in California, and I won't mention the drug use.

[BG]

When I come off of Nolva in a week, should I be looking for symptoms of any kind? Would it be worthwhile to get bloodwork done even though I've never done it before? And if I do get certain symptoms, what should I do about them? I just want to be prepared.

Thank you again to everyone who is taking time to read and reply to my idiot self.

Ye start now with blood work, then keep up with it befor and after each cycle.

[BG]

Go get blood work now. Then run some hcg again. Wait 6-8 weeks and get blood done again. That number should be you normal number. Then go from there.

[oops]

Go get blood work now. Then run some hcg again. Wait 6-8 weeks and get blood done again. That number should be you normal number. Then go from there.

Alright. When I go in for bloodwork do I just simply say I want my rbc count/test levels or what do I ask for specifically? Can I just go to my normal doctor?

And should I run 500iu's everyday for 10 days of hCG if my bloodwork isn't normal?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Lots of guys use private mdlabs or directlabs. Get a full male hormonal panel and include kidney liver and lipid values. There's package deals that are very reasonable.

Get BW done before making any decisions about what to do or run next.

Edit: going to your regular dr or telling him anything regarding this would be a huge mistake.

[oops]

Lots of guys use private mdlabs or directlabs. Get a full male hormonal panel and include kidney liver and lipid values. There's package deals that are very reasonable.

Get BW done before making any decisions about what to do or run next.

Edit: going to your regular dr or telling him anything regarding this would be a huge mistake.

Just curious why? Legal issues?

So go to directlabs.com and get

Testosterone Total & Free:

Estradiol:

DHEA,s:

PSA

?

Do they refer me to a place close to me to get blood drawn or something?

Couldn't I just go to my doctor and tell him my libido has slowly been getting lower and lower and I'm always sleepy and depressed or something? Lol

[Test me]

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You take AI's and SERMS if you need to take them - they are toxic chemicals themselves for gods sake and minimizing the number of chemicals you put in your body at one time is an OBVIOUSLY good thing.

You should always have them ON HAND to take if you REQUIRE them. You wouldn't take finasteride through every cycle just in case you might get hairloss would you....

As for all this "omg did I mess up my body" and "go get bloods rite now!!11"......no, you didn't do shit to your body and the blood check will likely mean nothing. What are you going to do with it, take more chemicals? You don't have access to cholesterol medication and all the results will say is "bad cholesterol/low test/strange estrogen levels" and you'll say "oh no I got bad levels what do I do now"... lol

The body works on negative feedback loops and when you introduce exogenous hormones you will affect this feed-back system in a number of ways and it WILL ALL RESET ITSELF regardless of if you take Nolvadex at 40404020 or clomid at 50/day or whatever.

If you want to kick start your natural test by all means take HCG , the amount required is dependant on YOUR BODY not what someone advises, you can take Nolvadex where required if you get nipple problems during the hormone changes.

As for everything else - lets think for one second instead of all talking rubbish - what do females do after they've taken the female sex hormone for years at a time (Thats right birth control pills are Steroids ...)? That's right nothing. It. Is. The. Same. Thing.

/Rant

Also some friendly advice - do not listen to anyone with this stuff, do your own research for it all because as you can see it is the blind leading the blind half the time. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't mean its correct either.

[jgrayson60]

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You take AI's and SERMS if you need to take them - they are toxic chemicals themselves for gods sake and minimizing the number of chemicals you put in your body at one time is an OBVIOUSLY good thing.

You should always have them ON HAND to take if you REQUIRE them. You wouldn't take finasteride through every cycle just in case you might get hairloss would you....

As for all this "omg did I mess up my body" and "go get bloods rite now!!11"......no, you didn't do shit to your body and the blood check will likely mean nothing. What are you going to do with it, take more chemicals? You don't have access to cholesterol medication and all the results will say is "bad cholesterol/low test/strange estrogen levels" and you'll say "oh no I got bad levels what do I do now"... lol

The body works on negative feedback loops and when you introduce exogenous hormones you will affect this feed-back system in a number of ways and it WILL ALL RESET ITSELF regardless of if you take Nolvadex at 40404020 or clomid at 50/day or whatever.

If you want to kick start your natural test by all means take HCG , the amount required is dependant on YOUR BODY not what someone advises, you can take Nolvadex where required if you get nipple problems during the hormone changes.

As for everything else - lets think for one second instead of all talking rubbish - what do females do after they've taken the female sex hormone for years at a time (Thats right birth control pills are Steroids ...)? That's right nothing. It. Is. The. Same. Thing.

/Rant

Also some friendly advice - do not listen to anyone with this stuff, do your own research for it all because as you can see it is the blind leading the blind half the time. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't mean its correct either.

How do we know that you are correct?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Just curious why? Legal issues?

So go to directlabs.com and get

Testosterone Total & Free:

Estradiol:

DHEA,s:

PSA

?

Do they refer me to a place close to me to get blood drawn or something?

Couldn't I just go to my doctor and tell him my libido has slowly been getting lower and lower and I'm always sleepy and depressed or something? Lol

Nothing good can come from telling your dr you've been taking schedule III drugs think about it.

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You take AI's and SERMS if you need to take them - they are toxic chemicals themselves for gods sake and minimizing the number of chemicals you put in your body at one time is an OBVIOUSLY good thing.

You should always have them ON HAND to take if you REQUIRE them. You wouldn't take finasteride through every cycle just in case you might get hairloss would you....

As for all this "omg did I mess up my body" and "go get bloods rite now!!11"......no, you didn't do shit to your body and the blood check will likely mean nothing. What are you going to do with it, take more chemicals? You don't have access to cholesterol medication and all the results will say is "bad cholesterol/low test/strange estrogen levels" and you'll say "oh no I got bad levels what do I do now"... lol

The body works on negative feedback loops and when you introduce exogenous hormones you will affect this feed-back system in a number of ways and it WILL ALL RESET ITSELF regardless of if you take Nolvadex at 40404020 or clomid at 50/day or whatever.

If you want to kick start your natural test by all means take HCG , the amount required is dependant on YOUR BODY not what someone advises, you can take Nolvadex where required if you get nipple problems during the hormone changes.

As for everything else - lets think for one second instead of all talking rubbish - what do females do after they've taken the female sex hormone for years at a time (Thats right birth control pills are Steroids ...)? That's right nothing. It. Is. The. Same. Thing.

/Rant

Also some friendly advice - do not listen to anyone with this stuff, do your own research for it all because as you can see it is the blind leading the blind half the time. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't mean its correct either.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Your opinion is beyond less than educated.

[oops]

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You take AI's and SERMS if you need to take them - they are toxic chemicals themselves for gods sake and minimizing the number of chemicals you put in your body at one time is an OBVIOUSLY good thing.

You should always have them ON HAND to take if you REQUIRE them. You wouldn't take finasteride through every cycle just in case you might get hairloss would you....

As for all this "omg did I mess up my body" and "go get bloods rite now!!11"......no, you didn't do shit to your body and the blood check will likely mean nothing. What are you going to do with it, take more chemicals? You don't have access to cholesterol medication and all the results will say is "bad cholesterol/low test/strange estrogen levels" and you'll say "oh no I got bad levels what do I do now"... lol

The body works on negative feedback loops and when you introduce exogenous hormones you will affect this feed-back system in a number of ways and it WILL ALL RESET ITSELF regardless of if you take Nolvadex at 40404020 or clomid at 50/day or whatever.

If you want to kick start your natural test by all means take HCG , the amount required is dependant on YOUR BODY not what someone advises, you can take Nolvadex where required if you get nipple problems during the hormone changes.

As for everything else - lets think for one second instead of all talking rubbish - what do females do after they've taken the female sex hormone for years at a time (Thats right birth control pills are Steroids ...)? That's right nothing. It. Is. The. Same. Thing.

/Rant

Also some friendly advice - do not listen to anyone with this stuff, do your own research for it all because as you can see it is the blind leading the blind half the time. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't mean its correct either.

I see your point, but you're in the minority here (no hate, I appreciate the information) and I feel safer taking the word of dozens of people on here (unfortunately, because it is more expensive and like you said, is just more chemicals in my body).


Anyways, comparing directlabs to *************, directlabs is under 200 bucks while ************* is almost 500. is that normal? why the price difference? you guys pay 500 everytime you want blood work done? damn thats insane.

[MuscleInk]

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You take AI's and SERMS if you need to take them - they are toxic chemicals themselves for gods sake and minimizing the number of chemicals you put in your body at one time is an OBVIOUSLY good thing.

You should always have them ON HAND to take if you REQUIRE them. You wouldn't take finasteride through every cycle just in case you might get hairloss would you....

As for all this "omg did I mess up my body" and "go get bloods rite now!!11"......no, you didn't do shit to your body and the blood check will likely mean nothing. What are you going to do with it, take more chemicals? You don't have access to cholesterol medication and all the results will say is "bad cholesterol/low test/strange estrogen levels" and you'll say "oh no I got bad levels what do I do now"... lol

The body works on negative feedback loops and when you introduce exogenous hormones you will affect this feed-back system in a number of ways and it WILL ALL RESET ITSELF regardless of if you take Nolvadex at 40404020 or clomid at 50/day or whatever.

If you want to kick start your natural test by all means take HCG , the amount required is dependant on YOUR BODY not what someone advises, you can take Nolvadex where required if you get nipple problems during the hormone changes.

As for everything else - lets think for one second instead of all talking rubbish - what do females do after they've taken the female sex hormone for years at a time (Thats right birth control pills are Steroids ...)? That's right nothing. It. Is. The. Same. Thing.

/Rant

Also some friendly advice - do not listen to anyone with this stuff, do your own research for it all because as you can see it is the blind leading the blind half the time. Just because a lot of people say something doesn't mean its correct either.

^^^Ignore all this crap.

[raj1]

^^^Ignore all this crap.

I second this.

[ickythump]

I second this.

I third this...I've personally read medical studies conducted on aas and this person is right about one thing, chemicals are dangerous, so if you're worried test me then don't take aas simple as that!!! Oh, and yes he should do his own research too

[Igifuno]

I don't usually post but this is getting ridiculous.

You should continue to 'usually don't post'.

^^^Ignore all this crap.

x4

Op read this: The Dangers of Elevated Estrogen in Men

[Test me]

^ What an obsolete link - what are you trying to acheive other than scare him? Or are you implying if he doesn't get his bloods done he will maybe have Estrogen problems and not be able to "Fix" those levels.

Biology Class 101: You don't acheive homeostasis with Hormone levels with exogenous chemicals because ALL the chemicals in that Negative feedback systen are dependant on each other so messing around with one has a knock-on effect on the others. As with when women come off the Birth control pill, the levels fix themselves. The Human body is far more complex than Nolvadex /Letrozole /Clomid and HCG lol.


To everyone dismissing my original post - I didn't expect any other kind of responses after reading the fear mongering thus far in this thread. I have a strong background in Biology AND in Chemistry, not only that, unlike most in this thread actually compete in Bodybuilding too.

To the OP you don't know if what I said is true but you do know that what I said all makes total logical sense even to someone without a background in this - that's why people just said "shut up" rather than try to explain where/why it is incorrect.

Simply put do not worry, your body will fix itself within months with regards to everything in the Blood Test. The only thing you should consider:-

1.) Hormone rebounds, have nolvadex for up to 8 months later to take whenever your nipples are sore.
2.) Speed up the process by taking something that stimulates the LH/FSH - at the START only(Clomid/HCG).
3.) Look up the Estrogen Handbook by Kreas (everyone here should do that it appears..)

[jgrayson60]

^ What an obsolete link - what are you trying to acheive other than scare him? Or are you implying if he doesn't get his bloods done he will maybe have Estrogen problems and not be able to "Fix" those levels.

Biology Class 101: You don't acheive homeostasis with Hormone levels with exogenous chemicals because ALL the chemicals in that Negative feedback systen are dependant on each other so messing around with one has a knock-on effect on the others. As with when women come off the Birth control pill, the levels fix themselves. The Human body is far more complex than Nolvadex /Letrozole /Clomid and HCG lol.

To everyone dismissing my original post - I didn't expect any other kind of responses after reading the fear mongering thus far in this thread. I have a strong background in Biology AND in Chemistry, not only that, unlike most in this thread actually compete in Bodybuilding too.

To the OP you don't know if what I said is true but you do know that what I said all makes total logical sense even to someone without a background in this - that's why people just said "shut up" rather than try to explain where/why it is incorrect.

Simply put do not worry, your body will fix itself within months with regards to everything the Blood Test. The only thing you should consider:-

1.) Hormone rebounds, have nolvadex for up to 8 months later to take whenever your nipples are sore.
2.) Speed up the process by taking something that stimulates the LH/FSH - at the START only(Clomid/HCG).
3.) Look up the SERMS/AI Handbook (everyone here should do that it appears..)

Why are you challenging people who have extensive experience of steroids ? Just because you have extensive experience in biology does not mean you know anything, the human body is very complex and not even scientists have total figured the body out. And oh wow you sound logical, wtf is that suppose to mean? Not everything is logical.

[ickythump]

Test Me, your point about not taking serms or anything unless you need it is somewhat valid I would agree, there are also studies indicating they are bad, they are however widely recommended...the point most people are trying to make is that you should get bw done, in your fine years as a Fellow at the Royal Society of London studying human biology I'm sure you can acknowledge the use of blood work and the fact that this person may in fact have lasting damage that can be corrected, there are things that the human body cant simply fix, you know this is true I suspect, yea maybe we were fear mongering a tad but it's dangerous to mess with your natural system...